collapse

* Resources


UDM 4

* 2020-2021 SOTG Tally


2020-21 Season SoG Tally
Cain3
Carton3
Garcia3
Lewis2
John1
McEwen1

'19-20
'18-19 * '17-18 * '16-17
'15-16 * '14-15 * '13-14
'12-13 * '11-12 * '10-11

* Big East Standings

* Recent Posts

my mom nude by brewcity77
[Today at 10:08:28 PM]


Huge decline in STHs??? by lostpassword
[Today at 09:49:13 PM]


We Are..... by Johnny B
[Today at 09:34:09 PM]


Chase Ross Commits by mileskishnish72
[Today at 08:37:56 PM]


Excellent Interview With Mr. Ross by Herman Cain
[Today at 07:35:19 PM]


Oct. 1st Marquette Madness- Open to the public by Mr. Nielsen
[Today at 06:58:10 PM]


More conference realignment talk by Fluffy Blue Monster
[Today at 04:00:07 PM]

Please Register - It's FREE!

The absolute only thing required for this FREE registration is a valid e-mail address.  We keep all your information confidential and will NEVER give or sell it to anyone else.
Login to get rid of this box (and ads) , or register NOW!

* Next up: The long cold summer

Marquette
Marquette

Madness

Date/Time: Oct 15, 2021, 6:00pm?
TV: NA
Schedule for 2019-20
13-14

Author Topic: Our Howard/rowsey defensive dilemma  (Read 7280 times)

jesmu84

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5390
Our Howard/rowsey defensive dilemma
« on: January 30, 2018, 04:38:36 PM »
Read ahead:

https://twitter.com/bensnider94/status/958376174106955777

Thoughts? How would you handle their time on the court?

GB Warrior

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1685
Re: Our Howard/rowsey defensive dilemma
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2018, 04:53:04 PM »
Interesting thread (didn't bother to read the supporting evidence while at work). It would certainly seem to suit their strengths to be "the guy" of their unit where they can fire at will. It would also alleviate the foul troubles a bit. Seems to be a higher probability of picking up fouls with both out there because there is one less player that can compensate for your deficiencies.

Would have to get major buy in that it's not a demotion.

Dr. Blackheart

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9783
Re: Our Howard/rowsey defensive dilemma
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2018, 05:05:32 PM »
Value-added wise, defensively,  Sam (-.90), Greg (-.67), Jamal (-.52), Matt (-.30) and Theo (-.11) are the best defenders.  Weird that the three frosh are in the group of best defenders.

But, maybe not so weird as Wojo's defense is supposed to feed the tempo of the offense. Which is why he starts offense.  Push the perimeter (and tempo) on defense and give up the paint.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 05:07:24 PM by Dr. Blackheart »

SaveOD238

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1242
Re: Our Howard/rowsey defensive dilemma
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2018, 05:06:11 PM »
Looking at the information on the linked website I was struck by Team Ortg and Team Drtg.

With Howard and Rowsey: Ortg 122.73, Drtg 117.41
Howard, no Rowsey: Ortg 113.79, Drtg 91.64
Rowsey, no Howard: Ortg 110.07, Drtg 93.80

So what do I take from this?  When the midgets play together, the offense goes through the roof, but is barely better than the team D, so it’s not worth much.  When they play separately, the teams offense suffers, but still is above 110 points per 100 possessions, which is an excellent number.  The team D jumps up to a suddenly respectable Drtg in the low 90s, which would make us a top 50 defensive team. 

In order to maximize our offensive and defensive efficiency, it looks like splitting Howard and Rowsey is the smarter plan.  There’s still something to the strategy of having two (three with Sam) great shooters on the floor together, but defensively we give up almost as much as we gain. 

Unpopular, and unlikely opinion time: Wojo should start Rowsey and bring Howard off the bench.

tower912

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 17313
Re: Our Howard/rowsey defensive dilemma
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2018, 05:18:05 PM »
So MU's defense is solid, except when Markus and Andrew are both on the floor.  The numbers buttress several assertions.
-Wojo can coach defense.
- the problem isn't the scheme.  The problem is having two miniature guards on the floor at the same time.  Can't hide them both.
- the defense will be better next year.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

Dr. Blackheart

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9783
Re: Our Howard/rowsey defensive dilemma
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2018, 05:27:21 PM »
So MU's defense is solid, except when Markus and Andrew are both on the floor.  The numbers buttress several assertions.
-Wojo can coach defense.
- the problem isn't the scheme.  The problem is having two miniature guards on the floor at the same time.  Can't hide them both.
- the defense will be better next year.

Or the wrong scheme for the wrong personnel. 

tower912

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 17313
Re: Our Howard/rowsey defensive dilemma
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2018, 06:04:23 PM »
Or the wrong personnel for the right scheme.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

Frenns Liquor Depot

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2620
Re: Our Howard/rowsey defensive dilemma
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2018, 06:24:25 PM »
Or the wrong personnel for the right scheme.

I don't know what you are trying to imply here.  That he is playing the wrong rotation required to win or he designed a whole season around two players that he knows has no chance to execute his defense? 

Either case seems like there are more options than to dig in and see what happens.

GGGG

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 25207
Re: Our Howard/rowsey defensive dilemma
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2018, 06:26:32 PM »
Or the wrong scheme for the wrong personnel. 


I don’t think there is a right scheme for those two.

Frenns Liquor Depot

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2620
Re: Our Howard/rowsey defensive dilemma
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2018, 06:28:21 PM »
Looking at the information on the linked website I was struck by Team Ortg and Team Drtg.

With Howard and Rowsey: Ortg 122.73, Drtg 117.41
Howard, no Rowsey: Ortg 113.79, Drtg 91.64
Rowsey, no Howard: Ortg 110.07, Drtg 93.80

So what do I take from this?  When the midgets play together, the offense goes through the roof, but is barely better than the team D, so it’s not worth much.  When they play separately, the teams offense suffers, but still is above 110 points per 100 possessions, which is an excellent number.  The team D jumps up to a suddenly respectable Drtg in the low 90s, which would make us a top 50 defensive team. 

In order to maximize our offensive and defensive efficiency, it looks like splitting Howard and Rowsey is the smarter plan.  There’s still something to the strategy of having two (three with Sam) great shooters on the floor together, but defensively we give up almost as much as we gain. 

Unpopular, and unlikely opinion time: Wojo should start Rowsey and bring Howard off the bench.

I think start both - see who's hot and then pull one.  Start again in 2h or 10 min mark.  Would not make him popular with our guards - thats for sure.

tower912

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 17313
Re: Our Howard/rowsey defensive dilemma
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2018, 06:32:47 PM »
The defensive system Wojo is run successfully many places.   It is even run successfully by Marquette when there is only one small guard on the floor.  Sadly, the two best scorers in the Big East play lousy defense together.   A conundrum.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

Daniel

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2455
Re: Our Howard/rowsey defensive dilemma
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2018, 08:23:36 PM »
This is very interesting and makes you think.  What do?  Vs a team with a lower org, maybe you start both, get a kead, then sub.   Or vs high efficiency teams one sits to start, one starts

This is is a major issue and will be interesting to see what Wojo does.  Tweak this with Heldt/Frohling/John efficiency numbers -  good stuff

#UnleashRowsey

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2902
Re: Our Howard/rowsey defensive dilemma
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2018, 09:05:39 PM »
Maybe we need to start doing hockey style subbing to keep other teams from constantly exploiting the littles.

WarriorFan

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1380
Re: Our Howard/rowsey defensive dilemma
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2018, 10:16:40 PM »
We just need to score more than the other team.

Defense no matta.
"The meaning of life isn't gnashing our bicuspids over what comes after death but tasting the tiny moments that come before it."

MU82

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 16776
Re: Our Howard/rowsey defensive dilemma
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2018, 10:19:30 PM »
It IS a dilemma. Very well-titled thread!

At this point, I think that for at least 20 minutes in every game, you have to hope the midgets and Sam outscore opponents.

Of course, given the propensity of both - especially Howard - to get into foul trouble, Wojo's decision is often made for him.

I think Wojo can try to  do more defense/offensive subbing down the stretch of games, too.
“There is so much loss here, and so much of it is preventable. When the vaccines came out in December, those of us in health care were like, ’Oh, my God, it’s like the cavalry coming over the hill. ... To see now what’s playing out? It’s all so needless.”

-- Boise hospital director Jim Souza

tower912

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 17313
Re: Our Howard/rowsey defensive dilemma
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2018, 11:38:57 AM »
Bump.    Go back through and see the comparative offense and defense rankings based on line up.   
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

jesmu84

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5390
Re: Our Howard/rowsey defensive dilemma
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2018, 01:31:24 PM »
Bump.    Go back through and see the comparative offense and defense rankings based on line up.

Did you see updated stats somewhere?

brewcity77

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22860
  • SJW is a badge of honor, not a pejorative.
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: Our Howard/rowsey defensive dilemma
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2018, 04:00:19 PM »
I think it's time to send Rowsey back to the bench. Howard still has the best turnover rate of the two and we are better offensively and defensively with him on the floor. I also think it would be best to sub them out frequently. Play them together in high-leverage situations, such as final possessions of half/game, when you desperately need threes to close a deficit, or right before scheduled timeouts (under 12, under 8, etc).

I'd go with a lineup of Howard, Elliott, Anim, Hauser, and Froling to start. Rowsey and John are first off the bench and get liberal minutes. Cain can sub in when needed at the 3/4 for shooting and rebounding, Heldt can sub in when the other bigs are in foul trouble or we go to a multi-big package.

Make sure Sam gets a touch every time down the floor on offense. He has a knack for finding the right guy or making the right decision. Rarely takes a bad shot and doesn't force his own usage so you know if he's shooting it's because he feels he has a good chance to make it, not because he's playing hero ball.

auburnmarquette

  • Team Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 416
    • Value Add Explaination
Re: Our Howard/rowsey defensive dilemma
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2018, 04:23:39 PM »
Value-added wise, defensively,  Sam (-.90), Greg (-.67), Jamal (-.52), Matt (-.30) and Theo (-.11) are the best defenders.  Weird that the three frosh are in the group of best defenders.

But, maybe not so weird as Wojo's defense is supposed to feed the tempo of the offense. Which is why he starts offense.  Push the perimeter (and tempo) on defense and give up the paint.

Yes, Rowsey and Howard are actually the only two Big East players to make the top 200 nationally (of 4,085 players) despite being worse than replacement players on defense. That's what makes Sam Hauser the MVP at 61st overall. I actually just updated last night, and Theo is even better and Sam and Greg are still in that order but slightly worse than when you posted.
http://www.pudnersports.com/ for my blogs or articles and www.valueaddbasketball.com for for current and historic rankings.

mu03eng

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5047
    • Scrambled Eggs Podcast
Re: Our Howard/rowsey defensive dilemma
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2018, 04:26:56 PM »
I think it's time to send Rowsey back to the bench. Howard still has the best turnover rate of the two and we are better offensively and defensively with him on the floor. I also think it would be best to sub them out frequently. Play them together in high-leverage situations, such as final possessions of half/game, when you desperately need threes to close a deficit, or right before scheduled timeouts (under 12, under 8, etc).

I'd go with a lineup of Howard, Elliott, Anim, Hauser, and Froling to start. Rowsey and John are first off the bench and get liberal minutes. Cain can sub in when needed at the 3/4 for shooting and rebounding, Heldt can sub in when the other bigs are in foul trouble or we go to a multi-big package.

Make sure Sam gets a touch every time down the floor on offense. He has a knack for finding the right guy or making the right decision. Rarely takes a bad shot and doesn't force his own usage so you know if he's shooting it's because he feels he has a good chance to make it, not because he's playing hero ball.

I go back to my "guidelines" I posted on Twitter before the Providence game. Howard and Rowsey should play a maximum of 10 minutes together and Rowsey should not start. Anim, Hauser, and Elliot are your switchable core with Cain as a sub where needed. I think you also play the "hot hand" at the 1 and 5, don't care who starts. If Rowsey comes in and the offense is clicking, ride him. If Froling starts but sucks and Heldt is holding things down, ride Heldt. I never under any circumstances, ever play Rowsey, Froling, and Howard together....might as well just escort them to the hoop.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

D'Lo Brown

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 502
Re: Our Howard/rowsey defensive dilemma
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2018, 04:34:15 PM »
I think it's time to send Rowsey back to the bench. Howard still has the best turnover rate of the two and we are better offensively and defensively with him on the floor. I also think it would be best to sub them out frequently. Play them together in high-leverage situations, such as final possessions of half/game, when you desperately need threes to close a deficit, or right before scheduled timeouts (under 12, under 8, etc).

I'd go with a lineup of Howard, Elliott, Anim, Hauser, and Froling to start. Rowsey and John are first off the bench and get liberal minutes. Cain can sub in when needed at the 3/4 for shooting and rebounding, Heldt can sub in when the other bigs are in foul trouble or we go to a multi-big package.

Make sure Sam gets a touch every time down the floor on offense. He has a knack for finding the right guy or making the right decision. Rarely takes a bad shot and doesn't force his own usage so you know if he's shooting it's because he feels he has a good chance to make it, not because he's playing hero ball.

+1

Buzz used to make frequent substitutions especially with Davante. I think when you have such an extremely unbalanced player, it should at least be considered. I imagine Wojo has concerns about Rowsey's "fragility"/emotions, and perhaps it is just not in his coaching philosophy to make offense/defense substitutions. I would love to see him switching Greg and Rowsey frequently.

IMO, most high major coaches would follow standard orthodoxy and play only 1 midget at a time. Most coaches (if they were instead coaching MU as they are right now) would split the minutes between Howard and Rowsey, most likely in favor of Howard usually. They would not have them on the court together for 2/3 of the game. They just wouldn't. I honestly think we would be seeing more of GE/Cain/Sacar. IMO, if one went back even further, we likely would have been more desperately searching for a true PG (with solid defense) and probably landing one. I'm not saying a star. I'm just saying that I think Wojo had already decided that going with both midgets on the floor was a very acceptable alternative if he wasn't able to land a great PG recruit. I think other coaches would be so frightened by the thought of having the two midgets on the court that they would have had many other alternatives, other than shooting for the moon.

GooooMarquette

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9208
  • Person Woman Man Camera TV!
Re: Our Howard/rowsey defensive dilemma
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2018, 04:36:10 PM »
I think it's time to send Rowsey back to the bench. Howard still has the best turnover rate of the two and we are better offensively and defensively with him on the floor. I also think it would be best to sub them out frequently. Play them together in high-leverage situations, such as final possessions of half/game, when you desperately need threes to close a deficit, or right before scheduled timeouts (under 12, under 8, etc).

I'd go with a lineup of Howard, Elliott, Anim, Hauser, and Froling to start. Rowsey and John are first off the bench and get liberal minutes. Cain can sub in when needed at the 3/4 for shooting and rebounding, Heldt can sub in when the other bigs are in foul trouble or we go to a multi-big package.

Make sure Sam gets a touch every time down the floor on offense. He has a knack for finding the right guy or making the right decision. Rarely takes a bad shot and doesn't force his own usage so you know if he's shooting it's because he feels he has a good chance to make it, not because he's playing hero ball.

Not a bad plan.  And while neither AR nor MH would likely be happy with reduced minutes, they would be much more fresh when they're in which allows them to go all-out getting around screens.  It would also help ensure they're fresh at money time.

brewcity77

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22860
  • SJW is a badge of honor, not a pejorative.
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: Our Howard/rowsey defensive dilemma
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2018, 04:47:12 PM »
Buzz used to make frequent substitutions especially with Davante. I think when you have such an extremely unbalanced player, it should at least be considered. I imagine Wojo has concerns about Rowsey's "fragility"/emotions, and perhaps it is just not in his coaching philosophy to make offense/defense substitutions. I would love to see him switching Greg and Rowsey frequently.

I wholeheartedly agree with this as well. In late game situations, make those changes quickly and regularly. I've seen teams do it to us recently, but we don't seem to follow suit.

mu03eng

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5047
    • Scrambled Eggs Podcast
Re: Our Howard/rowsey defensive dilemma
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2018, 05:04:12 PM »
I wholeheartedly agree with this as well. In late game situations, make those changes quickly and regularly. I've seen teams do it to us recently, but we don't seem to follow suit.

I have wondered of late, how is it we see this and Wojo doesn't. Is Wojo that stubborn or just doesn't see it? If we don't see some of these changes over the next couple of games (or any changes) I will be very concerned about Wojo's ability to coach and I'm a Wojo apologist.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

lohaus

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 169
Re: Our Howard/rowsey defensive dilemma
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2018, 11:34:18 PM »
I think it's time to send Rowsey back to the bench. Howard still has the best turnover rate of the two and we are better offensively and defensively with him on the floor. I also think it would be best to sub them out frequently. Play them together in high-leverage situations, such as final possessions of half/game, when you desperately need threes to close a deficit, or right before scheduled timeouts (under 12, under 8, etc).

I'd go with a lineup of Howard, Elliott, Anim, Hauser, and Froling to start. Rowsey and John are first off the bench and get liberal minutes. Cain can sub in when needed at the 3/4 for shooting and rebounding, Heldt can sub in when the other bigs are in foul trouble or we go to a multi-big package.

Make sure Sam gets a touch every time down the floor on offense. He has a knack for finding the right guy or making the right decision. Rarely takes a bad shot and doesn't force his own usage so you know if he's shooting it's because he feels he has a good chance to make it, not because he's playing hero ball.

I wholeheartedly agree with this.  If Rowsey is bringing 0 points, ill advised 3s, and hero ball then to the bench with him.  Two smurfs puts so much pressure on the other 3 players. I'm sure the bigs have to think 'stay in front of your f'in man!'  The other offensive players end up sitting and watching.

Perhaps sell it as they need them more throughout the entire game instead of playing ole defense with 3 or 4 fouls and getting everyone else in foul trouble.   It would bring one of them into the game with the other teams second tier players.

I would much rather see Theo starting and sort of setting the physical tone like mentioned in another thread.  We all know Heldt brings zero offense.  He can bang though. Frolling, he rebounds and gets the team plenty of extra opportunities.  Maybe look at Sam being able to get open more with another bigger body setting effective screens as opposed to two smurfs.

I love what Greg brings to the game.  Obviously starting offense had led to losing 6 of the last 8.  My picks Howard, Greg, Sam, Theo, and Frolling.  Bring in Rowsey for Howard and Anim in for whichever gets two quick fouls of Theo and Frolling. I must be more old school with having the two big bodies that can rebound, sort of defend, occupy space , block shots, and run the shooters off two firm screens. I'm just tired of watching Beast 4s and 5s murdering us by starting a half shooting 6 of 8 inside the paint .  Come on, how many career games are we going to give up this season?