Our Howard/rowsey defensive dilemma

[Its DJOver]

I wholeheartedly agree with this.  If Rowsey is bringing 0 points, ill advised 3s, and hero ball then to the bench with him.  Two smurfs puts so much pressure on the other 3 players. I'm sure the bigs have to think 'stay in front of your f'in man!'  The other offensive players end up sitting and watching.

Perhaps sell it as they need them more throughout the entire game instead of playing ole defense with 3 or 4 fouls and getting everyone else in foul trouble.   It would bring one of them into the game with the other teams second tier players.

I would much rather see Theo starting and sort of setting the physical tone like mentioned in another thread.  We all know Heldt brings zero offense.  He can bang though. Frolling, he rebounds and gets the team plenty of extra opportunities.  Maybe look at Sam being able to get open more with another bigger body setting effective screens as opposed to two smurfs.

I love what Greg brings to the game.  Obviously starting offense had led to losing 6 of the last 8.  My picks Howard, Greg, Sam, Theo, and Frolling.  Bring in Rowsey for Howard and Anim in for whichever gets two quick fouls of Theo and Frolling. I must be more old school with having the two big bodies that can rebound, sort of defend, occupy space , block shots, and run the shooters off two firm screens. I'm just tired of watching Beast 4s and 5s murdering us by starting a half shooting 6 of 8 inside the paint .  Come on, how many career games are we going to give up this season?

I also like the idea of more big sets with Sam, Harry and Theo/Matt.  This would allow both Harry and Sam to have a height and weight advantage on their defender, which would allow Sam to get into better position for his turnaround, and I think Harry has decent footwork and would not mind him taking someone on in the post more often, especially if he has a size advantage.

[tower912]

I am always in favor of a balanced starting line up and bringing scoring off of the bench.      So,  a Markus, Greg, Sam, Sacar, Theo/Harry line up works for me.    In a vacuum.     It is my recollection that AR was brought off the bench early in the season (before Haanif's departure) and his body language and performance were not stellar.   

[mu03eng]

I am always in favor of a balanced starting line up and bringing scoring off of the bench.      So,  a Markus, Greg, Sam, Sacar, Theo/Harry line up works for me.    In a vacuum.     It is my recollection that AR was brought off the bench early in the season (before Haanif's departure) and his body language and performance were not stellar.   

You're thinking of the Georgia game, and you are correct his body language was horrible, but Markus picked up 2 fouls in the first 70 seconds so the benching didn't last long. And right now, I really don't care if Rowsey doesn't like coming off the bench it's what the team needs so suck it up buttercup.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

NM

[D'Lo Brown]

I am always in favor of a balanced starting line up and bringing scoring off of the bench.      So,  a Markus, Greg, Sam, Sacar, Theo/Harry line up works for me.    In a vacuum.     It is my recollection that AR was brought off the bench early in the season (before Haanif's departure) and his body language and performance were not stellar.   

F Rowsey, he is a net positive for the team about once in every 3 or 4 games. Looking back, I wish we had just let Greg and Jamal take more lumps, and have Rowsey coming off the bench and as an insurance policy for Markus fouls. He's a perfectly acceptable 6th man of the year type. If he is having body language issues because of that then he can sit next to Cam.

From the eye test, Greg is generally a net positive for the team because his defense is good, and so incomparably better than any other guard on the team.

In an ideal world, Greg would be the starter, and AR would get some minutes fairly early on. If AR is on fire then he can get up to 20-25 minutes and Wojo employs frequent offense/defense switching of Greg/AR.  If not then Greg gets 30 minutes. This way we don't forcibly hitch our game-to-game success to AR's wild inconsistency and emotional state.

Wojo does not adjust AR's playtime at all, only if he has fouls. That's it.

[Floorslapper]

F Rowsey, he is a net positive for the team about once in every 3 or 4 games. Looking back, I wish we had just let Greg and Jamal take more lumps, and have Rowsey coming off the bench and as an insurance policy for Markus fouls. He's a perfectly acceptable 6th man of the year type. If he is having body language issues because of that then he can sit next to Cam.

From the eye test, Greg is generally a net positive for the team because his defense is good, and so incomparably better than any other guard on the team.

In an ideal world, Greg would be the starter, and AR would get some minutes fairly early on. If AR is on fire then he can get up to 20-25 minutes and Wojo employs frequent offense/defense switching of Greg/AR.  If not then Greg gets 30 minutes. This way we don't forcibly hitch our game-to-game success to AR's wild inconsistency and emotional state.

Wojo does not adjust AR's playtime at all, only if he has fouls. That's it.

You greatly underestimate Rowsey's value.  You absolutely do NOT want to see Markus Howard run the Point.

Over the last 4 games here are Markus's numbers:

137 Minutes Played
88 points
21/44 on 2ptFG
10/32 on 3ptFG
*This is 76 shot attempts over 4 games to generate 88 points.
10 Assists
14 Turnovers

Rowsey:
108 minutes played
42 points
6/16 2ptFG
6/20 3ptFG
12 Assists
7 Turnovers

Markus has gone full on hero ball, and the team has suffered as a result.  Rowsey has not been playing well the last 4 games, yet taking him out and watching Markus run PG is NOT the solution.  Personally, I feel Markus needs to be sat down and serve as the 6th man for instant offense.  Clearly Markus has little interest in passing to his teammates.

[BM1090]

You greatly underestimate Rowsey's value.  You absolutely do NOT want to see Markus Howard run the Point.

Over the last 4 games here are Markus's numbers:

137 Minutes Played
88 points
21/44 on 2ptFG
10/32 on 3ptFG
*This is 76 shot attempts over 4 games to generate 88 points.
10 Assists
14 Turnovers

Rowsey:
108 minutes played
42 points
6/16 2ptFG
6/20 3ptFG
12 Assists
7 Turnovers

Markus has gone full on hero ball, and the team has suffered as a result.  Rowsey has not been playing well the last 4 games, yet taking him out and watching Markus run PG is NOT the solution.  Personally, I feel Markus needs to be sat down and serve as the 6th man for instant offense.  Clearly Markus has little interest in passing to his teammates.

I agree that Rowsey is being underappreciated here. I also agree that Markus has been playing way too much hero ball.

That said, someone ran the numbers and we are better with Howard on the floor and Rowsey off than we are with Rowsey on and Howard off. I believe our O rating and D ratings improved slightly with Howard on and Rowsey off.

[D'Lo Brown]

You greatly underestimate Rowsey's value.  You absolutely do NOT want to see Markus Howard run the Point.

Over the last 4 games here are Markus's numbers:

137 Minutes Played
88 points
21/44 on 2ptFG
10/32 on 3ptFG
*This is 76 shot attempts over 4 games to generate 88 points.
10 Assists
14 Turnovers

Rowsey:
108 minutes played
42 points
6/16 2ptFG
6/20 3ptFG
12 Assists
7 Turnovers

Markus has gone full on hero ball, and the team has suffered as a result.  Rowsey has not been playing well the last 4 games, yet taking him out and watching Markus run PG is NOT the solution.  Personally, I feel Markus needs to be sat down and serve as the 6th man for instant offense.  Clearly Markus has little interest in passing to his teammates.

Sorry... I forget on this board that you have to cover all your bases in essay format, or assumptions get made based on any parts left out and you can be proved wrong on those points... 

To be clear, I'm not in favor of Markus being the primary ballhandler, uncertain where that came from. I'm in favor of Sam being focal point of the offense and GE/Anim doing the things they do well. GE is not a bad ballhandler and Sacar is a powerful driver. Sam is also an excellent decision-maker.

As we've watched Wojo's teams over the last few seasons we have seen that he generally does not have a traditional PG floor general on the court. Like it or not but we don't even have a PG on this team. Any lineup that gets drawn up has to find some way to get around that fact, no matter who/what/where/when. The lineup I was arguing for has enough decent ballhandlers and adept passers to get by.

As far as "running the point" goes, this really only applies for the player bringing the ball up the court most of the time and the one that holds onto the ball and running down clock. Otherwise, we don't have a player that primarily focuses on meaningful PG responsibilities. It's a shared responsibility.

[jesmu84]

Bump.

We look a LOT better when one of them is not on the court

[jesmu84]

Bump.

We look a LOT better when one of them is not on the court

Yup

[Floorslapper]

You greatly underestimate Rowsey's value.  You absolutely do NOT want to see Markus Howard run the Point.

Over the last 4 games here are Markus's numbers:

137 Minutes Played
88 points
21/44 on 2ptFG
10/32 on 3ptFG
*This is 76 shot attempts over 4 games to generate 88 points.
10 Assists
14 Turnovers

Rowsey:
108 minutes played
42 points
6/16 2ptFG
6/20 3ptFG
12 Assists
7 Turnovers

Markus has gone full on hero ball, and the team has suffered as a result.  Rowsey has not been playing well the last 4 games, yet taking him out and watching Markus run PG is NOT the solution.  Personally, I feel Markus needs to be sat down and serve as the 6th man for instant offense.  Clearly Markus has little interest in passing to his teammates.

Bump..

[burger]

Sub them in together when the other team has weak 3 point shooters and drivers in the game.....LOL!

Very very small offensive spurts and sub one out into a TV time out etc......

Targeted "Crack" offense.....

[#UnleashSean]

Bump..

You are coach now

[chapman]

Bump..

Will be interesting to see how Howard is re-integrated.  The balanced offense and defensive effort were lacking with Howard being a terrible defender and taking far and away the most shots.  Can't have games like the first SJU game where Howard and Rowsey play the entire game together and hope to outchuck the other team while Cain and Elliott have one shot attempt apiece. 

[Stretchdeltsig]

So MU's defense is solid, except when Markus and Andrew are both on the floor.  The numbers buttress several assertions.
-Wojo can coach defense.
- the problem isn't the scheme.  The problem is having two miniature guards on the floor at the same time.  Can't hide them both.
- the defense will be better next year.

We have had much shorter guards and done OK.  But, we should play more zone so our opponents don't pick our guards to defend the rim.

[MU82]

We have had much shorter guards and done OK.  But, we should play more zone so our opponents don't pick our guards to defend the rim.

"shorter" doesn't automatically equal bad defense, I agree.

Bad defensive players equals bad defense, though.

[brewcity77]

Bump..

I know you really like bumping that post, but maybe you shouldn't. It doesn't support what you want it to support. A few reasons:

1) You are using a 4-game sample size when we have a 27-game season and two years of data on the players overall to look at.
2) When Markus and Rowsey play together, Rowsey is the one playing the point. His role is to facilitate, Markus' role is to score. Hard to blame Markus for not having point guard stats when he's playing shooting guard.
3) Your small sample size indicates Rowsey has been improving in a PG type role of late. Since conference play started, Markus' assist rate has gone up while Rowsey's assist rate has gone down.
4) You are comparing a 5th year senior to a 2nd year freshman. In his first two years at UNC-Asheville, Rowsey was the primary ballhandler with assist rates of 17.0/18.8. Howard has shared duties or played the 2 and had assist rates of 19.9/18.4. As an upperclassman, Rowsey improved on those numbers, the assumption that Howard wouldn't do the same is curious at best.

I'll be the first to say that I certainly don't want Markus to be our only option at the point next year. I have my concerns with his size and with having a PG that has traditionally been a shoot-first player. But Markus could absolutely be an excellent point guard with fairly marginal adjustments to his game. The defensive side is a concern, but unless we can induce a four-inch growth spurt, there are aspects of that that simply aren't correctable.

Give us a 6'1" or taller grad transfer PG that plays good defense to either play alongside Markus or back him up (15-25 mpg ideally) and we'll be good to go.

[MU82]

I'm a little more concerned about Markus' ability to be a 30 mpg PG at this level, but I like where you're going, brewski. We agree more than we disagree, that's for sure.

[brewcity77]

I'm a little more concerned about Markus' ability to be a 30 mpg PG at this level, but I like where you're going, brewski. We agree more than we disagree, that's for sure.

There are reasons to be concerned, and I do think we will be best suited to have options at the PG, but it has felt a lot like people think Markus is somehow irrevocably broken at times. If he makes it back this year, he will have a very good chance to become our first 1,000 point scorer as a sophomore, will be on pace to be Marquette's all-time leading scorer, and is the leading scorer on this team. The kid is a phenomenal talent who is still developing into the player he will become. He's still just 18 years old and there are freshmen that will come in next year and be older than Markus. He's far from perfect, but he's one of the most exciting offensive talents we've seen in nearly a generation.

[Floorslapper]

I know you really like bumping that post, but maybe you shouldn't. It doesn't support what you want it to support. A few reasons:

1) You are using a 4-game sample size when we have a 27-game season and two years of data on the players overall to look at.
2) When Markus and Rowsey play together, Rowsey is the one playing the point. His role is to facilitate, Markus' role is to score. Hard to blame Markus for not having point guard stats when he's playing shooting guard.
3) Your small sample size indicates Rowsey has been improving in a PG type role of late. Since conference play started, Markus' assist rate has gone up while Rowsey's assist rate has gone down.
4) You are comparing a 5th year senior to a 2nd year freshman. In his first two years at UNC-Asheville, Rowsey was the primary ballhandler with assist rates of 17.0/18.8. Howard has shared duties or played the 2 and had assist rates of 19.9/18.4. As an upperclassman, Rowsey improved on those numbers, the assumption that Howard wouldn't do the same is curious at best.

I'll be the first to say that I certainly don't want Markus to be our only option at the point next year. I have my concerns with his size and with having a PG that has traditionally been a shoot-first player. But Markus could absolutely be an excellent point guard with fairly marginal adjustments to his game. The defensive side is a concern, but unless we can induce a four-inch growth spurt, there are aspects of that that simply aren't correctable.

Give us a 6'1" or taller grad transfer PG that plays good defense to either play alongside Markus or back him up (15-25 mpg ideally) and we'll be good to go.

I used the 4 game sample size as we were in the midst of losing 4 games in a row.  One poster felt Rowsey was the "problem."  I happened to disagree and said that Markus was hurting the team due to excessive shooting, and not playing team basketball.

Suggested Markus needed to be sat down and called on as a 6th man.  Ironically, once Markus got hurt, we went from down 16 against Creighton to winning the game, and turned in a relatively dominant win over a St. John's team that largely dominated us 10 days earlier.

Of course I expect Markus to improve as a PG with more time/experience.  I'm confident he can be a great PG for us next year, and this time on the bench will help him realize he doesn't have to do it all on his own and launch 76 shots in a 4-game stretch.

[MU82]

I used the 4 game sample size as we were in the midst of losing 4 games in a row.  One poster felt Rowsey was the "problem."  I happened to disagree and said that Markus was hurting the team due to excessive shooting, and not playing team basketball.

Suggested Markus needed to be sat down and called on as a 6th man.  Ironically, once Markus got hurt, we went from down 16 against Creighton to winning the game, and turned in a relatively dominant win over a St. John's team that largely dominated us 10 days earlier.

Of course I expect Markus to improve as a PG with more time/experience.  I'm confident he can be a great PG for us next year, and this time on the bench will help him realize he doesn't have to do it all on his own and launch 76 shots in a 4-game stretch.

If only you were our coach, we'd be 27-0 26-1. (Nobody's perfect; not even you, Ners.)

[jesmu84]

Bump

[Floorslapper]

Bump

LOL - Thanks. Today's game just more proof Wojo has no clue as a head coach.  I understand you kneel at the altar of Wojo, and he can do no wrong - but we just lost to DePaul, in a must win game, making a strong deviation from the formula that had us playing our best basketball of the year.

I mean Wojo was even forced into playing 1 small for the first half of this game and we at least had a lead/were in control..even though not playing zone.  What does he do in the 2nd half??  M2M with Rowsey and Howard playing together.