Christian proselytizing to public school basketball players

[Lennys Tap]

Mike,

I know and respect your opinions/feelings on these matters.

But I'm confused. You couldn't let a few Carolina Panther decorations go, but you remained silent here (in a case of in your face proselytizing), not even as much as discussing it with your head coach. What gives?

[Jay Bee]

I would have walked out of the FCA thing, tbh

But may not have gone in the first place

[#UnleashSean]

Huh?

Your going to take that and dismiss my overall point?

Again, I don't know wtf you have against me, JB. Trying to have a serious discussion here.

He's being a bit of a dick.

He's attacking you about you assuming two players were Muslim because one wore a hijab and another was named Muhammad. That's a pretty ''horrible" no no in pc culture. Although in reality it's pretty safe to assume that they are Muslim.

[warriorchick]

He's being a bit of a dick.

He's attacking you about you assuming two players were Muslim because one wore a hijab and another was named Muhammad. That's a pretty ''horrible" no no in pc culture. Although in reality it's pretty safe to assume that they are Muslim.

I would say that it is pretty safe to say that if a female wears a headscarf while playing sports, it is a good bet that she is Muslim (especially if she completely covers her arms and legs as well).

[Jockey]

I would have walked out of the FCA thing, tbh

But may not have gone in the first place

You have restored my faith in mankind.

Personally, I have nothing against FCA, but they shouldn't be blindsiding a captive audience.

[MU82]

Mike,

I know and respect your opinions/feelings on these matters.

But I'm confused. You couldn't let a few Carolina Panther decorations go, but you remained silent here (in a case of in your face proselytizing), not even as much as discussing it with your head coach. What gives?

That's an interesting question, Lenny.

At the luncheon, I felt I was in a difficult spot. My position as an assistant coach for this team is important to me. It is my first high school job. I was worried about perceptions. I didn't want to be seen as the "atheist agitator," certainly not in a setting like that. I don't think that would have been a "win" for me.

Using 20/20 hindsight, what I should have done is quietly gotten up and left. And when they asked me later where I went, I could have said I felt sick to my stomach - which would have been the truth.

Otherwise, no, I fully admit to not being strong enough to confront anybody at the luncheon  in front of a crowd of a couple hundred people. Nor did I feel empowered to bring it up to my coach. He not only seemed perfectly fine with the indoctrination but, as I said in the OP, was muttering the words the minister told him to say.

I'm not totally satisfied with that answer, Lenny, but it's the best I have. I will try hard to not find myself in such a position again, but it's not easy to avoid such things - especially here, where everybody just assumes that all others are Christians.

The Christmas ornament thing was a bit of a dilemma but it was relatively easy compared to this.

For one thing, my wife didn't want them there, either. We had a united front and there is strength in numbers. It was on our property. We also really didn't think the neighbor would take it personally, and she didn't.

[Lennys Tap]

That's an interesting question, Lenny.

At the luncheon, I felt I was in a difficult spot. My position as an assistant coach for this team is important to me. It is my first high school job. I was worried about perceptions. I didn't want to be seen as the "atheist agitator," certainly not in a setting like that. I don't think that would have been a "win" for me.

Using 20/20 hindsight, what I should have done is quietly gotten up and left. And when they asked me later where I went, I could have said I felt sick to my stomach - which would have been the truth.

Otherwise, no, I fully admit to not being strong enough to confront anybody at the luncheon  in front of a crowd of a couple hundred people. Nor did I feel empowered to bring it up to my coach. He not only seemed perfectly fine with the indoctrination but, as I said in the OP, was muttering the words the minister told him to say.

I'm not totally satisfied with that answer, Lenny, but it's the best I have. I will try hard to not find myself in such a position again, but it's not easy to avoid such things - especially here, where everybody just assumes that all others are Christians.

The Christmas ornament thing was a bit of a dilemma but it was relatively easy compared to this.

For one thing, my wife didn't want them there, either. We had a united front and there is strength in numbers. It was on our property. We also really didn't think the neighbor would take it personally, and she didn't.

Thanks for an open, honest and thoughtful reply, Mike.

I think all of us are probably more "principled" when our stand doesn't involve much in the way of consequences.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Yes I understand the difference between doing something by choice versus having something foisted upon you.

The reality though is every day there are people foisting values you may not share on kids. You happened to to stumble into a religious setting. From my point of view, the entire academic establishment in america is foisting their liberal values on kids.  So from my point of view having kids listen to something at one lunch is not a big deal. Should the organizers have been more forthcoming , yes. At least that way you could have done something in advance, such as eat first with no rhetoric, and then optional rhetoric for example.

Not a fair comparison.

I assume the "liberal values" you are referring to are ones of non-discrimination and tolerance (could just as easily be called Jesuit values). I can't be 100% sure they are at every university but every university I have worked for has a statement of non-discrimination or something similar. Students know what they are getting into in advanced and sign a contract stating that (now they may not read the contract all the way through but its there).

This seemed like more like an ambush. There is also a difference between someone telling people in the room that they are going to hell if they aren't Christian and someone teaching students that they should be accepting of people regardless of their identity.

[MU82]

Not a fair comparison.

I assume the "liberal values" you are referring to are ones of non-discrimination and tolerance (could just as easily be called Jesuit values). I can't be 100% sure they are at every university but every university I have worked for has a statement of non-discrimination or something similar. Students know what they are getting into in advanced and sign a contract stating that (now they may not read the contract all the way through but its there).

This seemed like more like an ambush. There is also a difference between someone telling people in the room that they are going to hell if they aren't Christian and someone teaching students that they should be accepting of people regardless of their identity.

Of course it was a totally ridiculous comparison.

9-9-9 has total control of where he sends his kids for education. If he doesn't like the message the public schools send, there are a whole lot of private schools at every level, from K through graduate school, who can brainwash them exactly as he'd prefer. Heck, North Carolina and many other states are now providing taxpayer dollars to help fund private-school education - even though those private schools don't have the same academic standards.

The kids who attended that luncheon Friday - and most of the adults, too - were, as you said, "ambushed" by fire-and-brimstone BS. Totally different. Even 9-9-9 acknowledged that before he he shifted the goalposts from the back of the end zone to the pearly gates.

I grew up Jewish. My mother was not thrilled that I chose Marquette. When folks there reassured her that I would not be preached to and that they wouldn't try to convert me, she agreed to let me go there. And Marquette kept its word.

The university pushed good morals and ethics and fairness and tolerance without pushing "Accept Jesus or go to hell." If I wanted Catholicism, it was there for me. If I didn't, it wouldn't be forced down my throat.

I knew in advance what I was getting, and I'm happy to say it was just as advertised.

That luncheon Friday? Definitely not what was advertised. As I said in an earlier post, all we were told was that sandwiches would be served. We weren't told they'd be served with a sales pitch from hell.

[Lennys Tap]

Not a fair comparison.

I assume the "liberal values" you are referring to are ones of non-discrimination and tolerance (could just as easily be called Jesuit values). I can't be 100% sure they are at every university but every university I have worked for has a statement of non-discrimination or something similar. Students know what they are getting into in advanced and sign a contract stating that (now they may not read the contract all the way through but its there).

Liberals are in control (have the power) in most of our schools. Power doesn't lend itself to tolerance of opposing viewpoints (no matter which side has it). Minorities (blacks and browns in the USA, conservative students on most college campuses, atheists in North Carolina, etc.) face discrimination as a matter of course. The majority (those in power) may want to deny the discrimination but it's there.

[naginiF]

Liberals are in control (have the power) in most of our schools. Power doesn't lend itself to tolerance of opposing viewpoints (no matter which side has it). Minorities (blacks and browns in the USA, conservative students on most college campuses, atheists in North Carolina, etc.) face discrimination as a matter of course. The majority (those in power) may want to deny the discrimination but it's there.

I REALLY hesitate to ask this (not because of you but others) but is this true below the university level?  I can see it in public higher education and, some, private higher education but I'm not aware of it below that*.  This may be just that my kids are still in grade school and we won't be sending them to public high school. 

*unless it's around science (evolution, climate change, etc.) or the pledge of allegiance

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Liberals are in control (have the power) in most of our schools. Power doesn't lend itself to tolerance of opposing viewpoints (no matter which side has it). Minorities (blacks and browns in the USA, conservative students on most college campuses, atheists in North Carolina, etc.) face discrimination as a matter of course. The majority (those in power) may want to deny the discrimination but it's there.

On the bolded, I can't speak for all schools and have no experience dealing with leadership below the university level, but every university I have worked for has had extremely conservative leadership at the highest levels. Boards of regents/trustees, presidents, presidents' cabinets, the movers and shakers tend to lean to the right. Most of the lower levels of academia lean to the left but not nearly as much as they are portrayed.

The rest of your post I'm not sure what you are getting at. I guess I would need to know what "liberal values" Herman Cain claims are being forced upon students. The only "liberal value" I have seen systematically pushed at any level is inclusion, tolerance, and eventual acceptance of  others regardless of race, gender identity, sexual orientation, religion, immigration status, socio-economic status, political affiliation, etc. And again, I don't think of these as "liberal values" more like common courtesy or basic human dignity. They could easily be renamed to "Jesuit values." I hear of isolated incidents of individuals pushing ideas like pro-choice or anti-gun, but i also hear that on the other side as well.

Universities don't turn students liberal. The current generation of students has always been more liberal. University is just the first place where many of them have had an opportunity to explore and voice those opinions. The political spectrum isn't stationary, its been moving to the left for hundreds of years. Today's moderate is tomorrow's conservative. This generation will be the most liberal generation ever....just like the generation before it was....and the generation before that one....and the generation before that one....

[Galway Eagle]

Liberals are in control (have the power) in most of our schools. Power doesn't lend itself to tolerance of opposing viewpoints (no matter which side has it). Minorities (blacks and browns in the USA, conservative students on most college campuses, atheists in North Carolina, etc.) face discrimination as a matter of course. The majority (those in power) may want to deny the discrimination but it's there.

Can you actually back up this statement or is this something fox told you?

[muwarrior69]

On the bolded, I can't speak for all schools and have no experience dealing with leadership below the university level, but every university I have worked for has had extremely conservative leadership at the highest levels. Boards of regents/trustees, presidents, presidents' cabinets, the movers and shakers tend to lean to the right. Most of the lower levels of academia lean to the left but not nearly as much as they are portrayed.

The rest of your post I'm not sure what you are getting at. I guess I would need to know what "liberal values" Herman Cain claims are being forced upon students. The only "liberal value" I have seen systematically pushed at any level is inclusion, tolerance, and eventual acceptance of  others regardless of race, gender identity, sexual orientation, religion, immigration status, socio-economic status, political affiliation, etc. And again, I don't think of these as "liberal values" more like common courtesy or basic human dignity. They could easily be renamed to "Jesuit values." I hear of isolated incidents of individuals pushing ideas like pro-choice or anti-gun, but i also hear that on the other side as well.

Universities don't turn students liberal. The current generation of students has always been more liberal. University is just the first place where many of them have had an opportunity to explore and voice those opinions. The political spectrum isn't stationary, its been moving to the left for hundreds of years. Today's moderate is tomorrow's conservative. This generation will be the most liberal generation ever....just like the generation before it was....and the generation before that one....and the generation before that one....

One guys right is another guys left. I am 70 and the center has shifted considerably to the left since I was in college. So what you would consider conservative to me could be considered liberal. It's all in the eye of our biases.

[Jockey]

Liberals are in control (have the power) in most of our schools. Power doesn't lend itself to tolerance of opposing viewpoints (no matter which side has it). Minorities (blacks and browns in the USA, conservative students on most college campuses, atheists in North Carolina, etc.) face discrimination as a matter of course. The majority (those in power) may want to deny the discrimination but it's there.

If I criticize, in any possible remote way, those on the right of the aisle - no matter how mild - all the whiny right wing babies immediately report me to the mods for talking politics. We all know who these several people are.

I wonder if any of these same principled babies will do the same regarding you making a political statement. Fairness dictates that they would report you. Their lack of integrity means it won't happen.

As a matter of fact, they will probably report me again for this post.

So while you make a good point in your post and it is an interesting subject..........

[Benny B]

I can certainly empathize with being proselytized against your wishes, but isn't 99%+ of what any of us are being exposed to in this world agendas that others are pushing, whether it's wanting you to believe in a bearded white guy who lives on a cloud somewhere, persuading you to buy that fancy new BMW, or convincing you that he/she is the one with whom you should spend the rest of your life (or maybe just that evening)?

To be sure, yes, I am indeed comparing 82's FCA tournament experience with Ernie Von Schledorn hawking the newest piece of crap on his lot or a pair of twin mid-20-somethings wearing matching leopard-print see-through halter tops at a bar on NYE.  At some point, you simply have to turn these things off or ignore them.

Is any of it appropriate?  So long as no laws are being broken, who's to say?  Is it appropriate for a person of authority to tell a bunch of kids he/she doesn't believe in God?  Is it appropriate for someone to tell a bunch of kids they should believe in any god they want?  Is it appropriate to tell a bunch of kids that before making up their mind about anything, they should at least give some consideration to Satanism?  Where do you draw the line?

People have a right to speak their mind about their god (or "god," as the case may be), drive whatever car they want, and wear whatever suits them (again, provided no laws are being broken).  You may not like their choice, especially when you're being exposed to it, but just because someone has a right to express him/herself doesn't mean anyone else has an obligation to acknowledge it.

Long story short, next time someone starts spouting off about god in a public setting, just pull out your phone and browse through some soft-core anime.  Or play Candy Crush.  But definitely the latter if you're surrounded by minors.

[#UnleashSean]

If I criticize, in any possible remote way, those on the right of the aisle - no matter how mild - all the whiny right wing babies immediately report me to the mods for talking politics. We all know who these several people are.

I wonder if any of these same principled babies will do the same regarding you making a political statement. Fairness dictates that they would report you. Their lack of integrity means it won't happen.

As a matter of fact, they will probably report me again for this post.

So while you make a good point in your post and it is an interesting subject..........

I reported just for the lolz.

[MU82]

I can certainly empathize with being proselytized against your wishes, but isn't 99%+ of what any of us are being exposed to in this world agendas that others are pushing, whether it's wanting you to believe in a bearded white guy who lives on a cloud somewhere, persuading you to buy that fancy new BMW, or convincing you that he/she is the one with whom you should spend the rest of your life (or maybe just that evening)?

To be sure, yes, I am indeed comparing 82's FCA tournament experience with Ernie Von Schledorn hawking the newest piece of crap on his lot or a pair of twin mid-20-somethings wearing matching leopard-print see-through halter tops at a bar on NYE.  At some point, you simply have to turn these things off or ignore them.

Is any of it appropriate?  So long as no laws are being broken, who's to say?  Is it appropriate for a person of authority to tell a bunch of kids he/she doesn't believe in God?  Is it appropriate for someone to tell a bunch of kids they should believe in any god they want?  Is it appropriate to tell a bunch of kids that before making up their mind about anything, they should at least give some consideration to Satanism?  Where do you draw the line?

People have a right to speak their mind about their god (or "god," as the case may be), drive whatever car they want, and wear whatever suits them (again, provided no laws are being broken).  You may not like their choice, especially when you're being exposed to it, but just because someone has a right to express him/herself doesn't mean anyone else has an obligation to acknowledge it.

Long story short, next time someone starts spouting off about god in a public setting, just pull out your phone and browse through some soft-core anime.  Or play Candy Crush.  But definitely the latter if you're surrounded by minors.

Benny, you and I have met and we have had many great conversations on Scoop. We agree on many things, and we never rail at each other.

I happen to disagree with you strongly on this topic.

I've said my piece, so I won't "battle" you here. Have a good one.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

One guys right is another guys left. I am 70 and the center has shifted considerably to the left since I was in college. So what you would consider conservative to me could be considered liberal. It's all in the eye of our biases.

Exactly. That's what I said in my last paragraph. What your generation perceives as conservative the current generation of students would perceive as fringe far right. Your generation's moderate is this generation's conservative, and your generation's liberal is this generation's moderate.  This has been happening since the Dark Ages, long before any university. There's nothing wrong with this, it's just the natural order of things as we continue to evolve as a species. Progressives make sure we progress, conservatives make sure we don't progress too quickly.

[Herman Cain]

Liberals are in control (have the power) in most of our schools. Power doesn't lend itself to tolerance of opposing viewpoints (no matter which side has it). Minorities (blacks and browns in the USA, conservative students on most college campuses, atheists in North Carolina, etc.) face discrimination as a matter of course. The majority (those in power) may want to deny the discrimination but it's there.

This is true at every level of the educational system. I can speak from years of experience at the Board level in education.  The ugly truth is the teachers control the grades and no one is willing to stand up to them. Once they get tenure it is game over and they are free to indoctrinate.

Just as an aside the Liberals in education came up with the whole concept of micro aggression.  I actually think  that is a projection of their daily posture.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

This is true at every level of the educational system. I can speak from years of experience at the Board level in education.  The ugly truth is the teachers control the grades and no one is willing to stand up to them. Once they get tenure it is game over and they are free to indoctrinate.

Just as an aside the Liberals in education came up with the whole concept of micro aggression.  I actually think  that is a projection of their daily posture.

Microaggressions is a well documented and researched form of discrimination. I'm not sure what you're implying here.

And I've asked in the thread but perhaps you missed it, what "liberal values" are tenured teachers "indoctrinating" their students with?

[Jockey]

This is true at every level of the educational system. I can speak from years of experience at the Board level in education.  The ugly truth is the teachers control the grades and no one is willing to stand up to them. Once they get tenure it is game over and they are free to indoctrinate.

Just as an aside the Liberals in education came up with the whole concept of micro aggression.  I actually think  that is a projection of their daily posture.

No Politics!!

[Jockey]

I reported just for the lolz.

Thanks, bud

[dgies9156]

And I've asked in the thread but perhaps you missed it, what "liberal values" are tenured teachers "indoctrinating" their students with?

Well, let's start with a  textbook in my children's middle school a few years ago that talked about the Jamestown colonists. In one passage, the author wrote that, "the settlers knew tobacco would be bad for people and would cause cancer and other diseases, but they sold it anyway for money."

Just in case anyone is confused, the Surgeon General of the United States first documented the link between cigarette smoking and cancer in 1962, under the Kennedy Administration. That was about 275 years after Jamestown and centuries after all these folks had met their maker.

When I pointed out the factual inaccuracies about the narrative to our children's teacher, all she said was, "We thought that was a really good book." When I pointed out the factual mistakes and the implication it makes for capitalism, she looked at me like I just came from Mars.

[#UnleashSean]

Microaggressions is a well documented and researched form of discrimination. I'm not sure what you're implying here.

And I've asked in the thread but perhaps you missed it, what "liberal values" are tenured teachers "indoctrinating" their students with?

To be fair I had a professor who was openly against trump going as far as to call him Hitler 2.0. He also talked about how white people are all genetically racist and are the only race able to be racist as we are the monocultoristic race in the world.

I brought up Pakistan vs India (he was indian) and all he could argue back was that I was mocking him. So...