Interesting Day Ahead...

[DegenerateDish]

Now having read this "blockbuster" report, I've got to say ... what a great, big nothingburger.
Miles Bridges' mom maybe got a few hundred dollars? Justin Patton, Wendell Carter and Collin Sexton had a meal?
Who cares?
This is a sport where even assistant coaches make mid six-figure salaries, but we're going to punish and ostracize teenagers for a free lunch?
SHEESH.

I thought it was an interesting read, but the DOJ report will be the big one, that's the one that matters.

[brewcity77]

Now having read this "blockbuster" report, I've got to say ... what a great, big nothingburger.
Miles Bridges' mom maybe got a few hundred dollars? Justin Patton, Wendell Carter and Collin Sexton had a meal?
Who cares?
This is a sport where even assistant coaches make mid six-figure salaries, but we're going to punish and ostracize teenagers for a free lunch?
SHEESH.

So are you just going to ignore the 26 players in this one report that got thousands of dollars? Including one (DJ Newbill) that had peripheral ties to our own program? Or that 8/26 were receiving 5 figures?

As far as Grimes, I'm not sure Marquette would welcome him back. I'd love him as a player, but I wouldn't blame the staff for not welcoming him into the fold.

[Its DJOver]

It might be because the owners are looking for $10MM/year for 10 years according to a recent article.

Really thought I didn't have to use teal.  His relationship with the Bucks is great, to the point where he's on the jumbo screen with the players after they hit a three, but there's no way that he would actually consider going for naming rights. 

[skianth16]

Now having read this "blockbuster" report, I've got to say ... what a great, big nothingburger.
Miles Bridges' mom maybe got a few hundred dollars? Justin Patton, Wendell Carter and Collin Sexton had a meal?
Who cares?
This is a sport where even assistant coaches make mid six-figure salaries, but we're going to punish and ostracize teenagers for a free lunch?
SHEESH.

There were some big numbers in there for sure, but the fact that lunches and small dollar "loans" are part of the FBI probe is a bit over the top, in my opinion. It will be interesting to see where the feds draw the line on criminal conduct given the wide difference in benefits received.

That said, I don't see why any kid with a future in hoops wouldn't just create some kind of LLC or other business entity to avoid some of the direct exposure here. Wouldn't that, in theory, be a way around some of the rules? Couldn't ASM pay for a lunch for a few employees of Quentin Grimes & Co?

[skianth16]

At this point I'd start making a recruit and his family sign a document stating they won't accept any money from outside sources and that if they do they understand the school will go after them in court.

I don't think you would have to have any legal recourse in that kind of document, maybe the kid would lose a schollie instead. That way it would be proof to the NCAA (or FBI?) that the school took reasonable measures to prevent illicit activity from occurring.

[Pakuni]

So are you just going to ignore the 26 players in this one report that got thousands of dollars? Including one (DJ Newbill) that had peripheral ties to our own program? Or that 8/26 were receiving 5 figures?

Yes, I am. Because, again, who cares? Unless there's evidence that the programs were in cahoots with these agents, funneling money to or through them, or that the players were being steered to certain programs by these benefits, what difference does it make?
How does Dennis Smith taking money from an agent under the table affect the competitive balance of college basketball or give NC State an unfair advantage? Where's the benefit to Utah from Kyle Kuzma getting a few thousand dollars? How many wins did Alabama get this year because Collin Sexton ate lunch with an agent?

Unless Yahoo Sports is holding back information, this report has zero bearing on the fairness of college basketball or the recruiting process. It's all about the NCAA propping up a hypocritical notion of amateurism in which everyone around the game makes money except for the players themselves.

[WarriorInNYC]

That said, I don't see why any kid with a future in hoops wouldn't just create some kind of LLC or other business entity to avoid some of the direct exposure here. Wouldn't that, in theory, be a way around some of the rules? Couldn't ASM pay for a lunch for a few employees of Quentin Grimes & Co?

Well, no that wouldn't get around the rules.  Perhaps it makes the investigation take a bit longer for them to figure out who the beneficial owners are.

[Galway Eagle]

Um..... how about we go after the schools, instead of going after the people with nothing.

So if a player or player's parent costs a school thousands without the school knowing then we should penalize the school? I'm on your side of the aisle when it comes to the political spectrum I'm not someone who's saying let them starve, but if a report concluded that say Vander Blue had been paid without our knowledge and then Marquette needed to pay back thousands and thousands of dollars you better believe I think he should be liable for that.

Also aren't you supposed to have me on ignore?

[brewcity77]

Yes, I am. Because, again, who cares? Unless there's evidence that the programs were in cahoots with these agents, funneling money to or through them, or that the players were being steered to certain programs by these benefits, what difference does it make?
How does Dennis Smith taking money from an agent under the table affect the competitive balance of college basketball or give NC State an unfair advantage? Where's the benefit to Utah from Kyle Kuzma getting a few thousand dollars? How many wins did Alabama get this year because Collin Sexton ate lunch with an agent?

Because they're bribes, because they are illegal, and because they open up the door for further illegal actions. It's easy to assume the schools don't know. It's just as plausible that they did, especially because they do end up with a benefit.

[wadesworld]

If Wojo and staff did not "welcome him back" (can you welcome someone back that never came in the first place?) because Grimes originally chose a blue blood that his mother went to first before he eliminated them because maybe there will be some sort of punishment for Kansas in an FBI investigation into bribery, that would be the first time I would worry about Wojo and staff not having what it takes to get it done.

The only possible reason to not "welcome Grimes back" if he started blowing up Stan's and Wojo's phone again seeing if they can revisit their mutual interest is if Grimes was named as a player who had accepted cash during his recruitment.  Otherwise if a 5 star comes calling that simply chose one school over yours and reconsidered, for whatever reason?  At the biggest position of need going into a season where if you address that need you are a top 20 team with Final Four potential?  Dear God would I be pissed if Wojo said, "Thanks, but we're looking for someone who actually wants to be here from the get go."

[Galway Eagle]

I don't think you would have to have any legal recourse in that kind of document, maybe the kid would lose a schollie instead. That way it would be proof to the NCAA (or FBI?) that the school took reasonable measures to prevent illicit activity from occurring.

If the school is forced to pay back NCAA credits, or loses a scholarship etc etc there's liquidated damages that the athlete or whomever else took the money should be responsible for. This type of clause could separate the actual cheaters from the cheating athletes.

[Pakuni]

So if a player or player's parent costs a school thousands without the school knowing then we should penalize the school? I'm on your side of the aisle when it comes to the political spectrum I'm not someone who's saying let them starve, but if a report concluded that say Vander Blue had been paid without our knowledge and then Marquette needed to pay back thousands and thousands of dollars you better believe I think he should be liable for that.

Also aren't you supposed to have me on ignore?

Serious question ... has a school ever been ordered to pay back  thousands and thousands of dollars for unknowingly using an ineligible player?

[Galway Eagle]

Serious question ... has a school ever been ordered to pay back  thousands and thousands of dollars for unknowingly using an ineligible player?

Don't schools have to repay NCAA credits when seasons are revoked?

[wadesworld]

Serious question ... has a school ever been ordered to pay back  thousands and thousands of dollars for unknowingly using an ineligible player?

How about Louisville and the $600K they're being forced to pay back for their 2013 NCAA Championship run?

BUT if people really believe that guys like Rick, Cal...heck, any college basketball coach "doesn't know" their players are getting paid, talking to agents or shoe companies, etc. I don't really know what to say.  These guys are egomaniac control freaks who know everything that happens to anyone involved in their programs.

[Pakuni]

Because they're bribes, because they are illegal, and because they open up the door for further illegal actions. It's easy to assume the schools don't know. It's just as plausible that they did, especially because they do end up with a benefit.

1. Nothing in this report (which is what we're talking about) suggests the schools knew.
2. Are they bribes or loans against future earnings? If I go out to lunch with a vendor seeking my company's business, am I being bribed? When my company offers its luxury box to a client, are we committing fraud?
3. Once more, please explain the benefit to the schools revealed in this report. I'm not seeing it.

[Pakuni]

How about Louisville and the $600K they're being forced to pay back for their 2013 NCAA Championship run?

Unknowing use of an inelgible player is not the reason Louisville is being punished. I mean, that's not even close to why Louisville is being punished.
Try again.

[skianth16]

If the school is forced to pay back NCAA credits, or loses a scholarship etc etc there's liquidated damages that the athlete or whomever else took the money should be responsible for. This type of clause could separate the actual cheaters from the cheating athletes.

I see what you're saying, but I don't know how much they'd really be able to recoup. I think they'd be better off to just show that they took steps to stop illegal behavior in order to try to avoid the potential liability. Do schools really end up paying this out of pocket anyway? Or is it covered by some kind of insurance policy that covers penalties incurred by agents of the university, or something along those lines?

[Loose Cannon]

.

The only possible reason to not "welcome Grimes back" if he started blowing up Stan's and Wojo's phone again seeing if they can revisit their mutual interest is if Grimes was named as a player who had accepted cash during his recruitment. 

Am I reading this right, this is the Only reason not to welcome him back in your thinking. Thanks

[LoudMouth]

Really thought I didn't have to use teal.  His relationship with the Bucks is great, to the point where he's on the jumbo screen with the players after they hit a three, but there's no way that he would actually consider going for naming rights.

Plus...the Arby's thing

[brewcity77]

If Wojo and staff did not "welcome him back" (can you welcome someone back that never came in the first place?) because Grimes originally chose a blue blood that his mother went to first before he eliminated them because maybe there will be some sort of punishment for Kansas in an FBI investigation into bribery, that would be the first time I would worry about Wojo and staff not having what it takes to get it done.

The only possible reason to not "welcome Grimes back" if he started blowing up Stan's and Wojo's phone again seeing if they can revisit their mutual interest is if Grimes was named as a player who had accepted cash during his recruitment.  Otherwise if a 5 star comes calling that simply chose one school over yours and reconsidered, for whatever reason?  At the biggest position of need going into a season where if you address that need you are a top 20 team with Final Four potential?  Dear God would I be pissed if Wojo said, "Thanks, but we're looking for someone who actually wants to be here from the get go."

That wouldn't be why he wasn't welcomed back. Not going to go into it, but there are reasons outside of bribes that I feel would completely justify the staff deciding to not pursue him again if he reopened his recruitment.

[GGGG]

That wouldn't be why he wasn't welcomed back. Not going to go into it, but there are reasons outside of bribes that I feel would completely justify the staff deciding to not pursue him again if he reopened his recruitment.

And I know what those concerns are, and I think Wojo rejecting him out of hand would be a mistake.  Conversations can be had.

[StillAWarrior]

Because they're bribes, because they are illegal, and because they open up the door for further illegal actions. It's easy to assume the schools don't know. It's just as plausible that they did, especially because they do end up with a benefit.

Once the list of schools who have players who got benefits from these agents gets long enough, can it really be said that the schools are benefiting from these payments?  Honestly, if the agents are running around paying kids at dozens of schools, that would seem to suggest, to me at least, that the schools really don't have much to do with it.  The longer the list of schools gets, the more it looks like the agents don't give a crap where the kids go to school, they just want to get into a relationship with the kids.

Obviously, the amateurism issue is something else entirely.

[brewcity77]

1. Nothing in this report (which is what we're talking about) suggests the schools knew.
2. Are they bribes or loans against future earnings? If I go out to lunch with a vendor seeking my company's business, am I being bribed? When my company offers its luxury box to a client, are we committing fraud?
3. Once more, please explain the benefit to the schools revealed in this report. I'm not seeing it.

1. The biggest problem there becomes institutional control. If this is happening, why weren't you aware of it and why didn't you take action to stem it off before it occurred?
2. When it comes to amateurs, and I know you don't like the idea of amateurism, I don't see any way it can not be considered a bribe. Until the player has the ability to pay it back, which means they are making money and assured a professional future, it's a gift. Considering how easily an injury or bust could derail a player's ability to pay back these types of sums, I would view it as a bribe, even if they wrote "loan" on their balance sheet.
3. Steering of players (like Smith, who received this before enrolling) and paying players (because they are getting paid while in school) jump out most prominently.

I agree with you that the real question is how amateurism is going to be handled going forward. The reality is this is going on around the country. Some of the schools are involved, some are likely in the dark. But the schools are absolutely profiting off players who are not allowed to profit themselves. That all needs to be sorted out and fixed. I don't know all the answers to that. But this stuff is all preamble to any amateurism changes. Right now, it's dealing with the situation as it is, not as we would like it to be.

[brewcity77]

And I know what those concerns are, and I think Wojo rejecting him out of hand would be a mistake.  Conversations can be had.

Sure, and I wouldn't object to them pursuing him. But I'm not going to be upset if they don't.

[wadesworld]

Unknowing use of an inelgible player is not the reason Louisville is being punished. I mean, that's not even close to why Louisville is being punished.
Try again.

Sure I'll try again.  UMASS had to pay back some of its NCAA Tournament credits for when Marcus Camby was playing for them.