MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: DegenerateDish on September 26, 2017, 08:29:31 AM
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FBI is going to announce it has arrested several NCAA men's assistant basketball coaches in a corruption scheme.
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Chuck Person (Auburn) and Lamont Evans (Oklahoma State) are two of the coaches.
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Emanuel Richardson of Arizona, too.
Reporter who broke it, Tom Winter, says there are 120+ pages of criminal complaints to go through. Interesting day indeed.
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Please no MU... Please no MU...
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Wonder what this might mean for Auburns head coach? Career finally over?
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USC coach, too
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4 coaches, the rest from a sportswear company for a total of 10
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https://www.wsj.com/articles/arrests-expected-in-probe-of-alleged-bribery-kickbacks-at-college-basketball-programs-1506431065
Federal law-enforcement officials are expected to arrest at least a half-dozen people and unseal charges Tuesday as part of a wide-ranging investi-gation into alleged bribery and kickback schemes at several of the country’s top-tier college basketball programs, people familiar with the matter said.
Investigators have been looking at whether coaches at these schools have been paid by outside entities—such as financial advisers, agents, and apparel companies—in exchange for pressuring players to associate with those entities, people familiar with the investigation said. Executives at at least one apparel company are expected to be among those arrested, a person familiar with the matter said.
The investigation is being led by the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Manhat-tan U.S. Attorney’s office.
Broadly, the investigation has shed light on the highly competitive recruiting pipeline that brings elite high-school basketball players through Division I college programs and into the professional leagues, and the role played by assistant coaches in that
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4 coaches, the rest from a sportswear company for a total of 10
Hmmm
Auburn: Under Armour
So Carolina: Under Armour
OK State: Nike
Zona: Nike
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USC is South Carolina, not Southern Cal (at least not yet).
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USC is South Carolina, not Southern Cal (at least not yet).
Thanks, edited my post above.
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No, it's the Trojans.
Tony Bland - Southern Cal Associate Head Coach
http://www.abc2news.com/news/national/report-several-ncaa-basketball-coaches-arrested-in-corruption-scheme (http://www.abc2news.com/news/national/report-several-ncaa-basketball-coaches-arrested-in-corruption-scheme)
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USC is South Carolina, not Southern Cal (at least not yet).
No, USC Trojans.
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this strikes me as an NCAA issue. Why do prosecutors really care about coaches taking money to steer kids towards certain advisors/apparel companies? There are far worse things happening in the world of college sports
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No, it's the Trojans.
Tony Bland - Southern Cal Associate Head Coach
http://www.abc2news.com/news/national/report-several-ncaa-basketball-coaches-arrested-in-corruption-scheme (http://www.abc2news.com/news/national/report-several-ncaa-basketball-coaches-arrested-in-corruption-scheme)
One of these is fake news ....
Acording to NBC, coaches at Auburn University, Oklahoma State, South Carolina University and others will be among those charged in the corruption scheme and/or arrested.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-09-26/fbi-arrests-several-ncaa-coaches-amid-broad-crackdown-college-basketball-corruption
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One of these is fake news ....
Acording to NBC, coaches at Auburn University, Oklahoma State, South Carolina University and others will be among those charged in the corruption scheme and/or arrested.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-09-26/fbi-arrests-several-ncaa-coaches-amid-broad-crackdown-college-basketball-corruption
USC Trojans http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2735255-fbi-arrests-4-ncaa-basketball-coaches-connected-to-fraud-and-corruption
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Why do prosecutors really care about coaches taking money to steer kids towards certain advisors/apparel companies?
Because it's illegal.
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In things that might be related to MU.... I was always skeptical about a 5* PG from the Adidas circuit choosing MU over KU (I get JH was adidas too... but thats a diff situation). However this little nugget may play in our favor.
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Jim Gatto, one of the Adidas' head basketball honchos, being arrested is huge news. Could mean some big names in college are about to drop.
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Lot more bad info is coming for a lot of people. Louisville is about to find itself in more trouble. Tons of interesting nuggets in the complaint filed. Seems like this is the tip of the iceberg.
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this strikes me as an NCAA issue. Why do prosecutors really care about coaches taking money to steer kids towards certain advisors/apparel companies? There are far worse things happening in the world of college sports
Because it's illegal.
This. And in general, not a fan of the whole "far worse things happening" thing that gets thrown around in general. Things that are illegal should be cracked down on, whether they are egregious or not.
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Feds alleged Brian Bowen's family received $100k to attend Louisville.
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Merl Code, director of Nike Elite Youth Basketball also arrested.
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Please no MU... Please no MU...
I doubt Marquette is involved. But if they are, they deserve whatever they get.
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Feds alleged Brian Bowen's family received $100k to attend Louisville.
Creighton was the favorite up until this moment.
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This. And in general, not a fan of the whole "far worse things happening" thing that gets thrown around in general. Things that are illegal should be cracked down on, whether they are egregious or not.
There is a way to regulate this ... the NCAA. Where is the NCAA on this? If they cannot handle this, why have NCAA investigations?
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Feds alleged Brian Bowen's family received $100k to attend Louisville.
I am sure "Slick Rick" didn't know anything about it.
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Tony Bland is USC's associate head coach. He came in with Enfield.
Emmanuel Richardson came to Arizona with Sean Miller in '09. Was with Miller for 2 years at X.
These aren't grad assistants. This has to go to the top.
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How can all this happen without Kentucky’s name being involved????
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There is a way to regulate this ... the NCAA. Where is the NCAA on this? If they cannot handle this, why have NCAA investigations?
They are busy with UNC
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Merl Code, director of Nike Elite Youth Basketball also arrested.
Per ESPN he is at ADIDAS now
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Is anyone on the board surprised by this? There are more snake oil salesmen per capita than almost any other business.
This could help level the field in recruiting especially if they can nail some of the crooks on the AAU circuit.
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Feds alleged Brian Bowen's family received $100k to attend Louisville.
But no worries here, Slick "15 Second" Rick obviously had no knowledge of the situation. Because head coaches always let their DOBOs handle recruiting visit schedules and their assistants handle recruiting on their own. He had no idea any of these things were going on.
::)
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I am sure "Slick Rick" didn't know anything about it.
Oops. Didn't see there was a second page. You beat me to it.
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Per ESPN he is at ADIDAS now
Bleacher Report and Business Insider have him at Nike.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/college-basketball-bribery-scandal-arrests-2017-9
In any regard, University of Miami also implicated (surprise, surprise)
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There is a way to regulate this ... the NCAA. Where is the NCAA on this? If they cannot handle this, why have NCAA investigations?
Sounds like the NCAA should have been on top of this, but they weren't. But it also sounds like actual crimes were committed, so the FBI should get involved. Other typical NCAA investigations are looking into violations of NCAA rules, which usually, those violations are just to the NCAA rules and not federal crimes.
Bribery and corruption are serious charges and punishment should not be contained to just within the NCAA.
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If Pitino survives this, he'll have an affair, stripper scandal, and bribery charges all on him.
I mean...
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There is a way to regulate this ... the NCAA. Where is the NCAA on this? If they cannot handle this, why have NCAA investigations?
You want the FBI to turn over investigations of criminal activities to the NCAA?
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There is a way to regulate this ... the NCAA. Where is the NCAA on this? If they cannot handle this, why have NCAA investigations?
Yeah, why even have laws. Let's let every corporation or entity enforce what they think is right. Laws are stupid.
NCAA investigations are not supposed to look into breaking federal laws. That's what law enforcement is for. The NCAA is supposed to police their own rules and regulations, that must also conform to the federal laws.
I honestly can't believe we are having to explain to someone why the FBI/police are enforcing federal laws instead of some random organization.
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Well, the good news out of this is that MU is no longer a bubble team. Just moved up at least six spots.
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USC is South Carolina, not Southern Cal (at least not yet).
Evans was also an assistant at South Carolina before moving to Oklahoma State. His indictment covers both school. The school tally now at seven, all NCAA tournament teams last year.
MU may get a NCAA win credit from last season.
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Feds alleged Brian Bowen's family received $100k to attend Louisville.
This is crazy. I didn't follow this recruitment at all, but looking at the timeline of this after a quick google search, his commitment came out of nowhere:
https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/louisville-lands-surprise-commitment-from-brian-bowen-last-five-star-in-2017/
And then there is this tweet, which is just amazing:
https://twitter.com/Efawcett7/status/912686651662417922
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Evans was also an assistant at South Carolina before moving to Oklahoma State. His indictment covers both school. The school tally now at seven, all NCAA tournament teams last year.
MU may get a NCAA win credit from last season.
Evans was at OSU last year.
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This is crazy. I didn't follow this recruitment at all, but looking at the timeline of this after a quick google search, his commitment came out of nowhere:
https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/louisville-lands-surprise-commitment-from-brian-bowen-last-five-star-in-2017/
And then there is this tweet, which is just amazing:
https://twitter.com/Efawcett7/status/912686651662417922
Yep, Rick $ure got lucky.
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Didn’t DePaul hire Bowen’s HS coach and get Tyger Cambell to get Bowen?
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Evans was also an assistant at South Carolina before moving to Oklahoma State. His indictment covers both school. The school tally now at seven, all NCAA tournament teams last year.
MU may get a NCAA win credit from last season.
If so, does this mean MU picks up their share of the NCAA money?
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This is crazy. I didn't follow this recruitment at all, but looking at the timeline of this after a quick google search, his commitment came out of nowhere:
https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/louisville-lands-surprise-commitment-from-brian-bowen-last-five-star-in-2017/
And then there is this tweet, which is just amazing:
https://twitter.com/Efawcett7/status/912686651662417922
You can't even make it up, it's just awesome now knowing what we know. For a college coach, let alone someone as infamous as Pitino, to provide that kind of detail, in hindsight, is amazing.
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I can't imagine Pitino survives this
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If Pitino survives this, he'll have an affair, stripper scandal, and bribery charges all on him.
I mean...
He'll also have 7 Final Fours and 2 titles, which is how he's survived ;)
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Evans was at OSU last year.
But he recruited the players on the South Carolina roster. The indictment spans both schools as the investigation is three years in the making.
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If so, does this mean MU picks up their share of the NCAA money?
We also get to hang a final four banner
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This is from the complaint filed...
"At the meeting, AUGUSTINE stated that he expected Company-1 to fund at least a portion of the future payments to Player-11 and/or his family because, referring to a coach for the University-6 men's basketball team ("Coach-2"), "no one swings a bigger dick than [Coach-2]" at Company-1, adding that "all [Coach-2 has to do] is pick up the phone and call somebody, [and say] these are my guys, they're taking care of us."
University 6 is Louisville
Coach 2 is Pitino
Company 11 is Addidas
Player 11 is Bowen
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All this is crazy. Not surprising, but crazy that they were able to get the dirt.
The other crazy part is that it is all only addidas it appears. Which itself is just dumb, there is zero chance that all the other big shoe companies aren't doing the exact same thing, yet no indictments regarding Nike or Under Armor.
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Be interesting to see if these assistant coaches cut plea deals and name names.
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Be interesting to see if these assistant coaches cut plea deals and name names.
I don't think there is any upside to stay quiet, since they are almost certainly done in college basketball whether they stay quiet or talk.
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I don't think there is any upside to stay quiet, since they are almost certainly done in college basketball whether they stay quiet or talk.
I guess it depends on the penalties they are facing. My guess is there are other opportunities out there, like pro-ball, that may not be available if you take down a legend.
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I'll just put this here...
Just last week, Adidas announced a long-term extension of its deal with the University of Kansas through the year 2031.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/articles.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2017/09/adidas_nike_officials_charged.amp
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All this is crazy. Not surprising, but crazy that they were able to get the dirt.
The other crazy part is that it is all only addidas it appears. Which itself is just dumb, there is zero chance that all the other big shoe companies aren't doing the exact same thing, yet no indictments regarding Nike or Under Armor.
In my experience German companies have a much more relaxed attitude toward moral and illegal activities (think VW/Audi emissions, Siemens bribery, all the illegal shipments to Iran of centrifuges, etc.). They do not have to worry about shareholder lawsuits, stringent enforcement of FCPA, or worry about public repudiation.
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And then there is this tweet, which is just amazing:
https://twitter.com/Efawcett7/status/912686651662417922
That tweet is taken WAAAY out of context. It left out the end of the interview:
"... We spent zero dollars recruiting a five star athlete who I loved when I saw him play. In my 40 years of coaching this is the luckiest I've been. Wink wink. And when I say wink wink, I mean we spent many dollars. Directly to him and his family. Wait... let's edit that last part out, OK?"
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All I want to know is one thing: how does this affect Grimes?
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https://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/massive-college-basketball-breaking-news-federal-charges-filed-against-four-college-basketball-assistant-coaches-for-corruption
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ESPN pretty much buries the Louisville part of the story, with no mention until paragraph 8:
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20824193/ncaa-basketball-coaches-10-charged-fraud-corruption (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20824193/ncaa-basketball-coaches-10-charged-fraud-corruption)
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Please no MU... Please no MU...
fjm -
If MU is involved, our problems are much greater than anyone ever could have imagined.
goinUptown
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I for one am shocked someone connected with Bruce Pearl is caught up in this mess.
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For those who haven't had time to read, sure anyone have a list of identified schools?
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Some other headlines from around the web:
University of Louisville recruits apparently swept up in a college basketball scandal
http://www.courier-journal.com/story/sports/college/louisville/2017/09/26/university-louisville-recruits-college-basketball-scandal/703820001/ (http://www.courier-journal.com/story/sports/college/louisville/2017/09/26/university-louisville-recruits-college-basketball-scandal/703820001/)
"Swept up" is a curious way to put it; it implies being forced into some kind of situation that's beyond your control. If you knowingly break the law by accepting a bribe and get caught doing it, I wouldn't call that being "swept up" in a scandal.
Louisville is at the heart of new NCAA corruption scandal (of course it is)
http://kentuckysportsradio.com/basketball-2/louisville-at-the-heart-of-new-ncaa-corruption-scandal-of-course-it-is/ (http://kentuckysportsradio.com/basketball-2/louisville-at-the-heart-of-new-ncaa-corruption-scandal-of-course-it-is/)
Pitino and scandal are so intertwined at this point, he's become a joke even in his own state.
Rick Pitino quote going viral after Louisville info in FBI probe
http://kentucky.247sports.com/Bolt/Rick-Pitino-quote-going-viral-after-Louisville-info-in-FBI-probe-108007051 (http://kentucky.247sports.com/Bolt/Rick-Pitino-quote-going-viral-after-Louisville-info-in-FBI-probe-108007051)
With federal charges for bribery and corruption, somebody is doing prison time for this. Possibly 10 years or more. Let's see who gives up who.
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Some other headlines from around the web:
University of Louisville recruits apparently swept up in a college basketball scandal
http://www.courier-journal.com/story/sports/college/louisville/2017/09/26/university-louisville-recruits-college-basketball-scandal/703820001/ (http://www.courier-journal.com/story/sports/college/louisville/2017/09/26/university-louisville-recruits-college-basketball-scandal/703820001/)
"Swept up" is a curious way to put it; it implies being forced into some kind of situation that's beyond your control. If you knowingly break the law by accepting a bribe and get caught doing it, I wouldn't call that being "swept up" in a scandal.
In some instances at least, it appears the allegations involve shoe companies and agents paying assistant coaches to steer players in their direction. In which case, it seems "swept up" is fair.
Also, it is illegal to accept money to play for a particular school?
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For those who haven't had time to read, sure anyone have a list of identified schools?
Auburn, USC, South Carolina, Ok St., Arizona, Louisville, Miami.
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In some instances at least, it appears the allegations involve shoe companies and agents paying assistant coaches to steer players in their direction. In which case, it seems "swept up" is fair.
Also, it is illegal to accept money to play for a particular school?
In the case of Louisville, the charges describe "payments of $100,000 from a company to the family of an unnamed player to secure his commitment to the school, which is described as a public research university with enrollment of 22,640 located in Kentucky." That's where I question the use of "swept up."
To your question, the only one indicted at the moment is an Adidas rep — not the player who accepted the bribe. So I can't say whether it's illegal to accept money.
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If Pitino survives this, he'll have an affair, stripper scandal, and bribery charges all on him.
I mean...
And he will still have his Italian idiot, Vitale shilling Ricks greatness.
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In the case of Louisville, the charges describe "payments of $100,000 from a company to the family of an unnamed player to secure his commitment to the school, which is described as a public research university with enrollment of 22,640 located in Kentucky." That's where I question the use of "swept up."
To your question, the only one indicted at the moment is an Adidas rep — not the player who accepted the bribe. So I can't say whether it's illegal to accept money.
I've got to think that Bowen's eligibility is in doubt for at least next year.
Think any ACC presidents are a little red in the face today?
Even though DePaul hired Bowen's HS coach who at least for a while brought along one of his players, I think that they will be fine. I mean why would any company find it worthwhile to pay a kid to play in the underexposed environment of DePaul?
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There were LOTS of stories on here when a certain coach left, to which someone from MU's compliance posted that they weren't true...
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There were LOTS of stories on here when a certain coach left, to which someone from MU's compliance posted that they weren't true...
LOTS of stories? I don't remember any actual stories, merely Chiconian promises of stories to come that never materialized.
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LOTS of stories? I don't remember any actual stories, merely Chiconian promises of stories to come that never materialized.
I think the thread got deleted...
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All this is crazy. Not surprising, but crazy that they were able to get the dirt.
The other crazy part is that it is all only addidas it appears. Which itself is just dumb, there is zero chance that all the other big shoe companies aren't doing the exact same thing, yet no indictments regarding Nike or Under Armor.
An indictment requires some evidence of wrongdoing. While you're probably right that all the companies are dong it, it's possible that Adidas has more of a paper trail than the others.
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Michigan State, a one time leader for Bowen, is breathing a sigh of relief. They can go forward as a top contender for a national title without worrying about a shoe dropping
"After dropping out of Brian Bowen’s recruitment late in the process, Michigan State basketball looked to have dodged a major bullet."
https://spartanavenue.com/2017/09/26/michigan-state-basketball-brian-bowen-allegedly-accepted-bribe/ (https://spartanavenue.com/2017/09/26/michigan-state-basketball-brian-bowen-allegedly-accepted-bribe/)
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Where's the update on UNC?
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I think Merl was w Nike EYBL for years, but now is with adidas... involved w/Karolina Khaos perhaps
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Well, the good news out of this is that MU is no longer a bubble team. Just moved up at least six spots.
I actually did laugh out loud at this.
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Thank god we're not an adidas school.
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Sounds like the NCAA should have been on top of this, but they weren't. But it also sounds like actual crimes were committed, so the FBI should get involved. Other typical NCAA investigations are looking into violations of NCAA rules, which usually, those violations are just to the NCAA rules and not federal crimes.
Bribery and corruption are serious charges and punishment should not be contained to just within the NCAA.
Maybe they referred it to the FBI. Breaking NCAA rules is not necessarily criminal. NCAA may of had inklings about illegal activity and possibly turned it over to FBI.
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Wasn't Wisconsin an Adidas school until a year ago?
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Maybe they referred it to the FBI. Breaking NCAA rules is not necessarily criminal. NCAA may of had inklings about illegal activity and possibly turned it over to FBI.
I doubt it, it's the NCAA. They will do anything to save face. And you know what the worst part of this is? Some athletes are going to be screwed over and you know the NCAA wont do a damn thing about it.
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Wasn't Wisconsin an Adidas school until a year ago?
Ain't no bahdee paid for anyone on day roster ernah?
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Michigan State, a one time leader for Bowen, is breathing a sigh of relief. They can go forward as a top contender for a national title without worrying about a shoe dropping
"After dropping out of Brian Bowen’s recruitment late in the process, Michigan State basketball looked to have dodged a major bullet."
https://spartanavenue.com/2017/09/26/michigan-state-basketball-brian-bowen-allegedly-accepted-bribe/ (https://spartanavenue.com/2017/09/26/michigan-state-basketball-brian-bowen-allegedly-accepted-bribe/)
Article doesn't make much sense. If Izzo's recruitment of Bowen was above-board, why would Sparty need to breathe a sigh of relief?
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That tweet is taken WAAAY out of context. It left out the end of the interview:
"... We spent zero dollars recruiting a five star athlete who I loved when I saw him play. In my 40 years of coaching this is the luckiest I've been. Wink wink. And when I say wink wink, I mean we spent many dollars. Directly to him and his family. Wait... let's edit that last part out, OK?"
The quote is probably accurate. Pitino did not spend any of his money or any of Louisville's money to recruit Bowen. They did not have to, because a shoe company did. The real question is whether Pitino knew what was going on.
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Ain't no bahdee paid for anyone on day roster ernah?
I told you not to call me Ernah.
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"We were shocked to learn this morning through news reports about the FBI investigation and arrests related to NCAA basketball programs, including the arrest of USC assistant coach Tony Bland," USC athletic director Lynn Swann said in a Tuesday statement. "USC Athletics maintains the highest standards in athletic compliance across all of our programs...except when we don't which when you really think about it is a lot of the time, but we try we really do try. "
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Thank god we're not an adidas school.
I just hope we haven't been engaged in these activities regardless of the shoe company we use.
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The quote is probably accurate. Pitino did not spend any of his money or any of Louisville's money to recruit Bowen. They did not have to, because a shoe company did. The real question is whether Pitino knew what was going on.
Not sure how much it’ll matter if they can prove Pitino knew about it. Program is already on probation and they have hard proof of a UL assistant arranging to pay a recruit. Pitino will be out and I imagine the AD will go with him.
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I doubt it, it's the NCAA. They will do anything to save face. And you know what the worst part of this is? Some athletes are going to be screwed over and you know the NCAA wont do a damn thing about it.
No athletes are going to get screwed over. They all know that, if they are caught, accepting money would make them ineligible.
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With 20 years on some of these Federal charges.....
There will be guys with diarrhea of the mouth to get sentences reduced.....
If found guilty.....A federal charge is a "mandatory" 85% "serve time".....
With multiple mail fraud across state lines....There are guys looking at 3 digit terms.....
Sing....Sing....Sing....
What the NCAA will try and guard against is racketeering charges when these guys flip.....
This could not be any better for a clean program and for NCAA basketball and football.....
If the NCAA was not going to clean things up....Sounds like the FEDS want to.....
It has been pretty obvious for a number of years....when programs like N.C., Syracuse, and Louisville get only a slap on the hands.....And with Kentucky pay off program detailed by the Chicago Tribune......The NCAA is basically FIFA.....
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Maybe they referred it to the FBI. Breaking NCAA rules is not necessarily criminal. NCAA may of had inklings about illegal activity and possibly turned it over to FBI.
I believe they said in the press conference that NCAA was not privy to any of the FBI's information, investigations, or the arrests.
Would love to be a fly on the wall in Emmert's office when all this dropped this morning.
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Most interesting part of the FBI presser was them admitting they are still actively investigating and encouraging coaches to call the FBI with info, before the FBI calls them. Almost like a pre-plea deal.
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I don't think there is any upside to stay quiet, since they are almost certainly done in college basketball whether they stay quiet or talk.
Not so sure... see: Pearl, Bruce
EDIT: Ah, hell. Pakuni beat me to it. No shortage of Pearl jokes around Scoop.
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I wonder if "Book" did this while at Xavier?
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Where's the update on UNC?
All athletic department personnel at UNC-Greensboro are currently in the custody of the FBI on a 48-hour hold pending outcome of the investigation in Chapel Hill.
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I just hope we haven't been engaged in these activities regardless of the shoe company we use.
I would be very surprised if we were involved, especially with Wojo heading the program - but on the off chance we were, I would hope they would all be fired.
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I would be very surprised if we were involved, especially with Wojo heading the program - but on the off chance we were, I would hope they would all be fired.
And I sincerely hope that the majority of us contributing directly to B&G would suspend donations for at least a year or two.
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I believe they said in the press conference that NCAA was not privy to any of the FBI's information, investigations, or the arrests.
Would love to be a fly on the wall in Emmert's office when all this dropped this morning.
In all probability, the FBI either received this case as a referral from the NCAA Investigations branch or thru some sort of confidential informant. Since DOJ made the New York Office, its office of origin and the Southern District of NY (SDNY) as the district of prosecution, and the fact no coaches from the NY area were charged, I am assuming the start of the investigation is where the money came from. Going on what I only read, it appears the subjects were indicted, meaning the case evidence was presented to a Federal Grand Jury as opposed to being charged with separate arrest warrants based on criminal complaints. So witnesses testified and evidence of the criminal acts were presented.
If so, they are charging a few with significant evidence thru the Grand Jury process, then waiting to see which defendants want to be first on the bus to talk and then give up others. This probably isn't over by a longshot.
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In all probability, the FBI either received this case as a referral from the NCAA Investigations branch or thru some sort of confidential informant. Since DOJ made the New York Office, its office of origin and the Southern District of NY (SDNY) as the district of prosecution, and the fact no coaches from the NY area were charged, I am assuming the start of the investigation is where the money came from. Going on what I only read, it appears the subjects were indicted, meaning the case evidence was presented to a Federal Grand Jury as opposed to being charged with separate arrest warrants based on criminal complaints. So witnesses testified and evidence of the criminal acts were presented.
If so, they are charging a few with significant evidence thru the Grand Jury process, then waiting to see which defendants want to be first on the bus to talk and then give up others. This probably isn't over by a longshot.
It started with an SEC investigation I believe into one of the agents or middlemen. He got pinched and started to squeal.
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Thank god we're not an adidas school.
While I don't think we're involved (at least based on everything I'm hearing, we would be very, very, very surprised to be involved).....I don't think it is restricted to the schools that have Adidas as a their equipment provider.
My understanding is this involves Adidas steering AAU players it "sponsors" to schools(regardless of equipment sponsorship) who would then in turn steer players to agents who would sign the player and would steer them to Adidas for contracts.
Basically, coaches were paying for access to Adidas AAU kids, and then turning around and selling those kids to agents.
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The quote is probably accurate. Pitino did not spend any of his money or any of Louisville's money to recruit Bowen. They did not have to, because a shoe company did. The real question is whether Pitino knew what was going on.
The article connects the dots, Bowen family accepted money, had he committed to Michigan St he could be facing ineligibility.
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It started with an SEC investigation I believe into one of the agents or middlemen. He got pinched and started to squeal.
"Louis Martin "Marty" Blazer III, (http://www.espn.com/espn/now?nowId=21-40003222-4), a former Pittsburgh financial adviser, who was accused of swindling $2.35 million from five clients by the Securities and Exchange Commission, was the cooperating witness who helped the FBI in its investigation of the basketball coaches and other defendants, according to U.S. Department of Justice documents obtained by ESPN."
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Hopefully Giannis hasn't signed on the dotted line with Adidas yet!
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"Louis Martin "Marty" Blazer III, (http://www.espn.com/espn/now?nowId=21-40003222-4), a former Pittsburgh financial adviser, who was accused of swindling $2.35 million from five clients by the Securities and Exchange Commission, was the cooperating witness who helped the FBI in its investigation of the basketball coaches and other defendants, according to U.S. Department of Justice documents obtained by ESPN."
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20824193/ncaa-basketball-coaches-10-charged-fraud-corruption
Just beat me to it. Here's the source and cooperating witness. #1 on bus, now #2, #3, etc........
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While I don't think we're involved (at least based on everything I'm hearing, we would be very, very, very surprised to be involved)
I can't imagine we're involved. I could be misunderstanding but I think shoe companies would only shell out money for kids that are expected to be in the NBA one day. They only recruit wet have had who was a consensus lock to the NBA out of high school was Henry. I don't think we had any shoe dealings there.
Just hoping that Kansas is involved somehow.
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FBI has set up hotline.
http://dailycaller.com/2017/09/26/the-fbi-setting-up-a-hotline-for-college-basketball-corruption-is-incredibly-stupid/
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The talk in Las Vegas when Shabazz Muhammad committed to UCLA was that he was going there because it was an "Adidas School".
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/2012/04/13/Marketing-and-Sponsorship/Shabazz.aspx
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No athletes are going to get screwed over. They all know that, if they are caught, accepting money would make them ineligible.
If When schools are disciplined and banned from the post-season the current students are effectively punished unless they can transfer without sitting out a year aina?
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FBI has set up hotline.
http://dailycaller.com/2017/09/26/the-fbi-setting-up-a-hotline-for-college-basketball-corruption-is-incredibly-stupid/
You read that crap?
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You read that crap?
Where else is one going to get insight on what NFL owners really think?
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Can we at least leave the crap commentary in that retched hive of scum and villainy called the SuperBar?
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You read that crap?
I have a subscription to the New York Times as well. So I'm not particular to whose "crap" I read.
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The talk in Las Vegas when Shabazz Muhammad committed to UCLA was that he was going there because it was an "Adidas School".
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/2012/04/13/Marketing-and-Sponsorship/Shabazz.aspx
That happens quite often. Heck, Diamond Stone chose Maryland because his dad was given a job by UnderArmor and they're a UA school (and he couldn't get into UW, duh...oh and forget that UW was already in the process of transitioning from Adidas to UA by that point...).
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t-shirts are already commemorating this event: https://twitter.com/phillipmbailey/status/912719890028613632
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t-shirts are already commemorating this event: https://twitter.com/phillipmbailey/status/912719890028613632
I understand it from a rivalry perspective, but I'd be shocked if Calipari wasn't sitting in his office sweating a bit (as well as many other coaches). Hopefully, we aren't included on that list.
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Just to add a bit of levity:
The prez of Louisvile really said this today "UofL is committed to ethical behavior and adherence to NCAA rules; any violations will not be tolerated."
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t-shirts are already commemorating this event: https://twitter.com/phillipmbailey/status/912719890028613632
The University-6 jersey wins the day.
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t-shirts are already commemorating this event: https://twitter.com/phillipmbailey/status/912719890028613632
"Already?" I would have thought they had those in storage. Actually, I would have thought they had been a top seller for quite some time.
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The University-6 jersey wins the day.
Yeah, that one is definitely new. And hilarious!
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The plot thickens:
Darren Heitner @DarrenHeitner
Sources: Basketball agency ASM Sports was raided today. FBI had warrant, took Andy Miller's computer.
Miller is an agent whose client list includes Kyle Lowry, Serge Ibaka, Dwight Howard, Kristaps Porzingis and Myles Turner.
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The quote is probably accurate. Pitino did not spend any of his money or any of Louisville's money to recruit Bowen. They did not have to, because a shoe company did. The real question is whether Pitino knew what was going on.
Bingo. I'm guessing constructive notice is enough in these cases, too (AKA burying your head in the sand is not a defense).
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ESPN pretty much buries the Louisville part of the story, with no mention until paragraph 8:
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20824193/ncaa-basketball-coaches-10-charged-fraud-corruption (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20824193/ncaa-basketball-coaches-10-charged-fraud-corruption)
Pat Forde/Yahoo on the other hand calling for the death penalty:
https://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa-needs-give-louisville-basketball-death-sentence-bombshell-allegations-prove-correct-181930063.html
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Rick Pitino just released a video statement.
(https://i.imgur.com/tUJ5FJj.gif)
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Rick Pitino just released a video statement.
(https://i.imgur.com/tUJ5FJj.gif)
Nice! The Sergeant Schultz defense!
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it is really tempting to have some schadenfreude with this announcement . However, in general I don't believe it is good for college basketball over all. I am hoping that after the initial burst of negative publicity the sport can get focused on what is happening on the court.
Having spent a fair amount of family time being involved in college athletics and seeing the making of the recruiting sausage up close and personal , I can't say I am surprised. In some respects , MU may be better able to compete in the future as some of the competition is disarmed.
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I love Pitino's statement, pure gold. For comedy's sake, I hope he coaches this season, and more stuff pops up, and he just keeps denying, absolutely hilarious.
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This one smells really, really bad. It has the potential when the investigation is done to bring down most of the major college basketball powers in the United States. The problem is that college basketball went from a winter diversion for universities to a "make-or-break" sport that fueled university relevance.
I indeed hope some of the game's biggest names, UK, Villanova, Kansas, Texas, Michigan State, Michigan, Indiana, Syracuse, Florida, UCLA, Duke even us., are clean. The ramifications if they aren't are too bad to think of.
God, I hope this does not touch us but I am legitimately worried about the Hillbilly years. There was some well-known monkey business that was cleaned up behind the scenes. As bad as that was, only God knows what would happen if the same problems Loserville had somehow found their way to our corner of the world.
Look for some major changes in college basketball in the coming years. It has to be. Not sure what they will be yet, but something has to change or the game will go down the tubes.
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Herman my man...I kinda agree with you here.
I see that UK guys are already creating t-shirts about Pitino, but I'm not sure spiking the ball here is a good idea. I have a feeling this **could** be the beginning of the end of college sponsored, amateur sports as we know it. This is what happens when the money gets too big and one of the parties responsible for the bigness of the money doesn't get adequate compensation.
This may open the door for Congressional action as well. Athletic income is now taxable? Perhaps.
I mean, if this takes down multiple blue bloods, I'm not sure the sport can recover to where it was before.
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Herman my man...I kinda agree with you here.
I see that UK guys are already creating t-shirts about Pitino, but I'm not sure spiking the ball here is a good idea. I have a feeling this **could** be the beginning of the end of college sponsored, amateur sports as we know it. This is what happens when the money gets too big and one of the parties responsible for the bigness of the money doesn't get adequate compensation.
This may open the door for Congressional action as well. Athletic income is now taxable? Perhaps.
I mean, if this takes down multiple blue bloods, I'm not sure the sport can recover to where it was before.
If it means MU wins multiple national Championships because of it...I'm okay with that. :)
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This is not even scratching the surface of the problem. There are probably a lot of coaches, AD's and university presidents sweating things that it at the moment. That said, this far from a new issue. The NCAA has allowed a great of under the table actions to occur for decades. At this point, I hope that the investigation is complete and no further programs are outed.
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I bet recruiting is squeaky clean now short term, possibly helps Wojo with Grimes
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https://www.theringer.com/platform/amp/2017/9/26/16371360/fbi-sting-operation-assistant-coach-arrests-scandal
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https://www.theringer.com/platform/amp/2017/9/26/16371360/fbi-sting-operation-assistant-coach-arrests-scandal
You beat me by about 2 minutes to post this. It pretty much sums up my feelings on this whole thing, especially since it looks like the storm clouds should miss MU.
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Interesting tweet from CBS radio host @BrandonTierney:
"When #BigEast expanded to 16 tms in '05-'06, I remember handing a coach a pen/asked him to circle teams that did NOT cheat: he circled 3."
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This is not even scratching the surface of the problem. There are probably a lot of coaches, AD's and university presidents sweating things that it at the moment. That said, this far from a new issue. The NCAA has allowed a great of under the table actions to occur for decades. At this point, I hope that the investigation is complete and no further programs are outed.
Totally agree, and my fear is many of the sealed cases relate to NCAA program investigations. Not good for college bball unless it ends here/soon and maybe deters things in the future. #BitCoin
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Maybe, if they would allow athletes to be paid from the getgo, this wouldn't be an issue... :-X
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Can anybody say World Wide Wes? Isn't this the definition of what he has been doing for two decades strong?
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Maybe, if they would allow athletes to be paid from the getgo, this wouldn't be an issue... :-X
You honestly think a "stipend" would stop 6 figure bribes to high school kids? Got knows how much the 5* get AFTER they get to campus. Get real.
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There is a way to regulate this ... the NCAA. Where is the NCAA on this? If they cannot handle this, why have NCAA investigations?
Resource constraints, so subpoena power, many other reasons.
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You honestly think a "stipend" would stop 6 figure bribes to high school kids? Got knows how much the 5* get AFTER they get to campus. Get real.
That's why they should let them profit off their likeness...no measly sum there
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The plot thickens:
Darren Heitner @DarrenHeitner
Sources: Basketball agency ASM Sports was raided today. FBI had warrant, took Andy Miller's computer.
Miller is an agent whose client list includes Kyle Lowry, Serge Ibaka, Dwight Howard, Kristaps Porzingis and Myles Turner.
Myles Turner went to Texas. Nice!
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Maybe, if they would allow athletes to be paid from the getgo, this wouldn't be an issue... :-X
Maybe if you were an employed American in the United States with a real career these types of comments would not come out?
PS- Myles Turner... 2013 http://latenighthoops.com/ny2la-spring-2013-mn/#.WcsR_VtSzIU
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Dan WolkenVerified account @DanWolken 4h4 hours ago
Rick Pitino is the most successful person in history who never knows anything important
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https://www.theringer.com/platform/amp/2017/9/26/16371360/fbi-sting-operation-assistant-coach-arrests-scandal
Yeah this pretty much nails it. With this much money involved, and a significant number of people aren't getting their fair share (as determined by the marketplace), this is going to happen.
Let them profit off their own likeness. If you can cap it then cap it. If you want to run it through the schools, then do that. If you want to place the money in escrow and limit withdrawls until they leave the school, then try that too.
But complete amateurism is dead. And probably has been for awhile.
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Yeah this pretty much nails it. With this much money involved, and a significant number of people aren't getting their fair share (as determined by the marketplace), this is going to happen.
Let them profit off their own likeness. If you can cap it then cap it. If you want to run it through the schools, then do that. If you want to place the money in escrow and limit withdrawls until they leave the school, then try that too.
But complete amateurism is dead. And probably has been for awhile.
That will fix it
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Maybe if you were an employed American in the United States with a real career these types of comments would not come out?
PS- Myles Turner... 2013 http://latenighthoops.com/ny2la-spring-2013-mn/#.WcsR_VtSzIU
We get it, you're soooooo important and gods gift to earth, and "kids these days" should just shut up, take their licks, and not question authority because they're not worthy of receiving appropriate compensation.
Even those here who agree with you, and don't think players should be paid, think they should be able to profit off their own likeness.
Or something like that.
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Yeah this pretty much nails it. With this much money involved, and a significant number of people aren't getting their fair share (as determined by the marketplace), this is going to happen.
Let them profit off their own likeness. If you can cap it then cap it. If you want to run it through the schools, then do that. If you want to place the money in escrow and limit withdrawls until they leave the school, then try that too.
But complete amateurism is dead. And probably has been for awhile.
Completely disagree.
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We get it, you're soooooo important and gods gift to earth, and "kids these days" should just shut up, take their licks, and not question authority because they're not worthy of receiving appropriate compensation.
Or something like that.
Why are you talking about me being important and gods gift to earth? I just pointed out that you, by your own admission, were living in a foreign country and were having trouble finding low paying jobs. Stop making it into more than it is. The topic is minimal (you).
Prospective student athletes should only agree to contracts they wish to engage in, just like any other adult. Simple. If they don't like it, don't do it.
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That will fix it
It doesn't deserve to be fixed. It's a sham.
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Interesting tweet from CBS radio host @BrandonTierney:
"When #BigEast expanded to 16 tms in '05-'06, I remember handing a coach a pen/asked him to circle teams that did NOT cheat: he circled 3."
Pretty sure DePaul is one. Hopefully we are two...Three would just be a complete guess. As is two really.
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Interesting tweet from CBS radio host @BrandonTierney:
"When #BigEast expanded to 16 tms in '05-'06, I remember handing a coach a pen/asked him to circle teams that did NOT cheat: he circled 3."
Depaul
Notre Dame
MU (Crean was the coach and Buzz changed that).
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I indeed hope some of the game's biggest names, UK, Villanova, Kansas, Texas, Michigan State, Michigan, Indiana, Syracuse, Florida, UCLA, Duke even us., are clean. The ramifications if they aren't are too bad to think of.
Arizona should be on this list and Miller is considered one of the good guys. So we have a "biggest name" implicated.
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Arizona should be on this list and Miller is considered one of the good guys. So we have a "biggest name" implicated.
Meh
Never made a final 4
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Creighton was the favorite up until this moment.
Yes, as someone who followed his recruitment closely, this makes alot of sense. He exhausted his "official" visits but his last two visits were "unofficial" to Oregon (Nike) and then Louisville (Adidas).....two schools who didn't recruit him until really late.
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Meh
Never made a final 4
Huh!
They won it all in 1997. Runner up in 2001, made four final 4 since 1988 and 11 elite eight appearances with the last three being 2011, 2014 and 2015.
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Huh!
They won it all in 1997. Runner up in 2001, made four final 4 since 1988 and 11 elite eight appearances with the last three being 2011, 2014 and 2015.
I believe that's in reference to Sean Miller.
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This obviously isn't good for college sports and going to end badly for maybe a handful of programs, but we've seen just as bad and even worse - point shaving, numerous examples of schools/boosters paying players and associates, heck ... we've had a coach cover up a murder - and this isn't going to take down the NCAA.
College sports has become, to borrow a phrase, too big to fail. This will eventually fade from the forefront and come April everyone will be tuning into the Final Four just like every other year.
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This obviously isn't good for college sports and going to end badly for maybe a handful of programs, but we've seen just as bad and even worse - point shaving, numerous examples of schools/boosters paying players and associates, heck ... we've had a coach cover up a murder - and this isn't going to take down the NCAA.
College sports has become, to borrow a phrase, too big to fail. This will eventually fade from the forefront and come April everyone will be tuning into the Final Four just like every other year.
I agree other than I don't think it is going to end poorly for a handful of programs. If history is our guide, this will end poorly for a handful of people whose names you only learn because of the scandal....the institutions will likely be just fine.
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This will eventually fade from the forefront and come April everyone will be tuning into the Final Four just like every other year.
And, just like in 2016, Pitino will be watching on TV. A key difference being that he'll probably be watching the entire season on TV this year.
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I don't think the NCAA is going to be taken down by any respect. I do think they are going to fundamentally have to change.
http://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2017/09/26/the-ncaas-amateurism-model-creates-black-market-that-allow-corruption-to-exist/
"The money big-time college basketball generates is real. It’s also partially artificially inflated because by the simple fact of cutting players – and their families – out, there’s that same amount of cash with fewer people to claim it. That allows things to get ugly, first on the fringes and then further and further to the center of things as the practice becomes a playbook."
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Reports out now that Slick Rick and the AD will be fired!!
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Reports out now that Slick Rick and the AD will be fired!!
https://twitter.com/AdamZagoria/status/913022998378156032
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Miller is an agent whose client list includes Kyle Lowry, Serge Ibaka, Dwight Howard, Kristaps Porzingis and Myles Turner.
[sigh] and Justin Patton [/sigh]
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https://twitter.com/AdamZagoria/status/913022998378156032
How can you hold a guy accountable when he had no knowledge that this was going on in his program?
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The plot thickens:
Darren Heitner @DarrenHeitner
Sources: Basketball agency ASM Sports was raided today. FBI had warrant, took Andy Miller's computer.
Miller is an agent whose client list includes Kyle Lowry, Serge Ibaka, Dwight Howard, Kristaps Porzingis and Myles Turner.
I thought ASM sold out to IMG..... ;D
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A few pages ago someone mentioned that this gets MU off the bubble. Heck, this might get DePaul ON the bubble! Not GTown though. ;D
I think these guys will sing like canaries to avoid years behind bars. And that's what the FBI really wants here.
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I thought ASM sold out to IMG..... ;D
Not gonna happen, not when you can get a team to Vegas. Spencer has got this stuff under control.
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https://twitter.com/AdamZagoria/status/913022998378156032
It's Louisville, it's Louisville!
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It's Louisville, it's Louisville!
I see what you did there.
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I see what you did there.
Well, he is probably the highest profile coach not currently working. Not an unthinkable scenario.
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Sounds like Jurich got immediately fired this morning. Interesting that he wore an ACC shirt to his meeting with the interim school president.
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Sounds like Jurich got immediately fired this morning. Interesting that he wore an ACC shirt to his meeting with the interim school president.
Would Pitino sing to avoid significant jail time?
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Pitino met with his staff this morning and told them he expects to be fired, per ESPN (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20835336/louisville-basketball-coach-rick-pitino-tells-staff-expects-lose-job).
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Pitino met with his staff this morning and told them he expects to be fired, per ESPN (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20835336/louisville-basketball-coach-rick-pitino-tells-staff-expects-lose-job).
Reading on other boards that Pitino currently has an $18 million buyout that can only be negated by an NCAA violation, which this would not be. The rumor mill says his lawyer is not going to give up easy, Rick will walk but wants to be paid the entire buyout.
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Reading on other boards that Pitino currently has an $18 million buyout that can only be negated by an NCAA violation, which this would not be. The rumor mill says his lawyer is not going to give up easy, Rick will walk but wants to be paid the entire buyout.
Posturing, obviously. And everyone on both sides of the negotiation knows it. Pitino will accept something less, and Louisville will gladly pay it. But it wouldn't be to surprising if it was in the eight-figure range.
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The Louisville board is a trip. Someone posted the FBI tip line number and encouraged people to call in: "I know several who have called just to complain about the ‘other programs’ like UK and Kansas along with Nike. Maybe if they get enough calls about Anthony Davis, they won’t be able to ignore it."
A more level headed poster is trying to explain that calling the FBI's tip line to report vague accusations about rivals is probably not the smartest idea. But some of them don't seem to understand that logic.
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Reading on other boards that Pitino currently has an $18 million buyout that can only be negated by an NCAA violation, which this would not be. The rumor mill says his lawyer is not going to give up easy, Rick will walk but wants to be paid the entire buyout.
It is not one yet, because the NCAA has yet to take action on any of this. What they are accused of though is most definitely an NCAA violation. Pitino's negotiating leverage here is poor.
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Wouldn't there be a 'firing for cause' clause in any contract? I mean seriously if Rick committed a crime where he was going to jail eventually trump (no pun intended) some NCAA T-shirt violation?
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And I actually think Crean just might get a call. He's actually good at rebuilds and UL is going to be in tatters when this is done.
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It is to one yet, because the NCAA has yet to take action on any of this. What they are accused of though is most definitely an NCAA violation. Pitino's negotiating leverage here is poor.
It depends entirely on the language of the agreement. I'd be surprised if the language allowed Louisville off the hook for a rumored violation that has not even been cited by the NCAA yet (no matter how strong the alleged evidence behind the rumor might be). I'd think that a decent buyout provision in a contract would require at the very least an formal charge by NCAA, if not an actual finding. Louisville wants to get rid of him now without waiting for that process to even begin, much less run its course. While I agree that Pitino's negotiating leverage would be poor in the long run, I suspect the urgency that Louisville is feeling today has significantly increased his leverage. He's going to get paid. Louisville looked the other way in the past, which greatly increases the urgency of their situation now. They made a mess, and now it's going to cost them.
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Reading on other boards that Pitino currently has an $18 million buyout that can only be negated by an NCAA violation, which this would not be. The rumor mill says his lawyer is not going to give up easy, Rick will walk but wants to be paid the entire buyout.
So this is good news for Rick. He goes from making several million a year to recruit and coach tempermental teenagers and young adults in a hyper competitive environment to taking 18 million (less lawyer's fees) to go shopping for throughbreds for his horse farm.
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Wouldn't there be a 'firing for cause' clause in any contract? I mean seriously if Rick committed a crime where he was going to jail eventually trump (no pun intended) some NCAA T-shirt violation?
My guess is that Pitino absolutely has plausible deniability that will prevent him from ever facing jail time (unless someone flips on him -- a distinct possibility). While lack of institutional control might be a big deal to the NCAA, it probably doesn't get you charged with crimes. Unless Pitino's contract is a total piece of crap, a just cause provision probably wouldn't apply to things that might happen in the future. They want to fire him today.
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My guess is that Pitino absolutely has plausible deniability that will prevent him from ever facing jail time (unless someone flips on him -- a distinct possibility). While lack of institutional control might be a big deal to the NCAA, it probably doesn't get you charged with crimes. Unless Pitino's contract is a total piece of crap, a just cause provision probably wouldn't apply to things that might happen in the future. They want to fire him today.
You make a good point about the 'right now' part of this.
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According to Pat Forde, Pitino just arrived to a meeting at the administration building. The SUV he arrived in is idling outside. In other words, like the ADs meeting earlier this morning, Pitino apparently doesn't expect it to be a long meeting.
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According to Pat Forde, Pitino just arrived to a meeting at the administration building. The SUV he arrived in is idling outside. In other words, like the ADs meeting earlier this morning, Pitino apparently doesn't expect it to be a long meeting.
And, apparently it was another five-minute meeting. Gotta think Pitino just got the axe.
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I wouldn't be surprised if Pitino faces a lawsuit from Louisville challenging the buyout and asking for damages due to the hit the university will take (in both revenue and reputation). I don't see the administration just cutting him a check if he's involved in the player payoff.
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Again, I am not going to relish or gloat over the NCAA findings. I hope this all goes away ASAP. IMO, you would be very hard pressed to not find many, many programs that are breaking the rules. Granted, there are degrees of cheating, but cheating is cheating. NCAA has turned their back on way too much for decades. There are a lot of nervous folks out there today.
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I wouldn't be surprised if Pitino faces a lawsuit from Louisville challenging the buyout and asking for damages due to the hit the university will take (in both revenue and reputation). I don't see the administration just cutting him a check if he's involved in the player payoff.
I wouldn't be surprised either. But, then again, I'd characterize that in the same way: posturing. Both sides are going to pound the table, threaten (and maybe even file) lawsuits...and then announce that they've resolved their differences. In other words, they'll negotiate a payment that is lower than whatever the contractual buyout is and quietly slink of into the night. And a couple law firms will be very, very pleased about how things played out.
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Both Jurich and Pitino have been fired. Presser at noon.
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... and here comes the other shoe to drop for the named schools.
ESPN 100 recruit E.J. Montgomery decommits from Auburn
http://www.espn.com/college-sports/recruiting/basketball/mens/story/_/id/20835897/auburn-tigers-recruit-ej-montgomery-decommits
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It depends entirely on the language of the agreement. I'd be surprised if the language allowed Louisville off the hook for a rumored violation that has not even been cited by the NCAA yet (no matter how strong the alleged evidence behind the rumor might be). I'd think that a decent buyout provision in a contract would require at the very least an formal charge by NCAA, if not an actual finding. Louisville wants to get rid of him now without waiting for that process to even begin, much less run its course. While I agree that Pitino's negotiating leverage would be poor in the long run, I suspect the urgency that Louisville is feeling today has significantly increased his leverage. He's going to get paid. Louisville looked the other way in the past, which greatly increases the urgency of their situation now. They made a mess, and now it's going to cost them.
Legally, I think they can fire him for cause with this FBI investigation, citing pending NCAA charges. With that language, if they do give him a buyout now, the moment the NCAA files a formal charge, they could sue and win back any buyout.
I'm sure when they are negotiating a buyout, Louisville attorneys make clear that if he doesn't accept a small buyout, that anything he gets they will get back with a lawsuit when this all falls down.
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So, what schools are going to be tourney banned by the time the season starts sensing that what we've seen so far is the tip of the iceberg?
Maybe we need a new recruiting style thread with a hit list!
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jsglow
There will be a recruiting hit list needed. Going to be a lot of action in upcoming days/weeks.
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You don't get a moniker like "Slick" without reason. Was he looking ahead to a day like yesterday when he made that tweet about how lucky he was with the Bowen commitment? If he can make the argument that Addidas gave Bowen's family the cash without his knowledge to get Bowen started on the Adidas train then maybe he's in the clear.
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Is it possible that Louisville could avoid the buyout by citing the NCAA violation over the hookers - which just came down this summer?
Hmm, I imagine we will be seeing Slick Rick often in the stands at Williams Arena this winter...
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Legally, I think they can fire him for cause with this FBI investigation, citing pending NCAA charges. With that language, if they do give him a buyout now, the moment the NCAA files a formal charge, they could sue and win back any buyout.
I'm sure when they are negotiating a buyout, Louisville attorneys make clear that if he doesn't accept a small buyout, that anything he gets they will get back with a lawsuit when this all falls down.
All of that depends on the language of the contract. It may be publicly available; I have no idea.
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This is only the beginning.
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jsglow
There will be a recruiting hit list needed. Going to be a lot of action in upcoming days/weeks.
I wonder how many recruits will be declared ineligible?
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The Louisville Courier-Journal states that firing him for "just cause" has now become a more plausible option. Pitino's contract language reportedly includes:
"Employee is presumed to be responsible for the actions of all assistant coaches and administrators who report, directly or indirectly, to him. Employee shall promote an atmosphere of compliance, academic integrity, and ethical conduct within his program and shall monitor the activities of all assistant coaches and administrators involved with the program who report, directly or indirectly, to him."
He's not talking his way out of this one. Dealing with the FBI and federal charges is a big step up from dealing with NCAA guidelines. Slick Rick could see prison time.
http://www.courier-journal.com/story/sports/college/louisville/2017/09/26/louisville-basketball-coach-rick-pitino-adidas-scandal-college-basketball/704604001/ (http://www.courier-journal.com/story/sports/college/louisville/2017/09/26/louisville-basketball-coach-rick-pitino-adidas-scandal-college-basketball/704604001/)
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Fire Rick for cause. Make him sue. Negotiate from there after making him wait and go through legal maneuvers.
No organization is going to payout a coach whose program was just implicated in a DOJ investigation. That is poor governance period. PR is on your side as well.
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I'm going to wait to get up on my high horse until BigDaddyTarentino tells me I'm not going to be knocked off of it anytime soon...
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Maybe he can get some conjugal visits at Porcini’s bye plea bargainin’, hey?
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And I actually think Crean just might get a call. He's actually good at rebuilds and UL is going to be in tatters when this is done.
Somewhere, Brent is asking Goodman and Parrish to run some puff pieces about the time he stopped to let a family of ducks pass while volunteering to drive a Meals on Wheels truck.
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Somewhere, Brent is asking Goodman and Parrish to run some puff pieces about the time he stopped to let a family of ducks pass while volunteering to drive a Meals on Wheels truck.
LOL
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It depends entirely on the language of the agreement. I'd be surprised if the language allowed Louisville off the hook for a rumored violation that has not even been cited by the NCAA yet (no matter how strong the alleged evidence behind the rumor might be). I'd think that a decent buyout provision in a contract would require at the very least an formal charge by NCAA, if not an actual finding. Louisville wants to get rid of him now without waiting for that process to even begin, much less run its course. While I agree that Pitino's negotiating leverage would be poor in the long run, I suspect the urgency that Louisville is feeling today has significantly increased his leverage. He's going to get paid. Louisville looked the other way in the past, which greatly increases the urgency of their situation now. They made a mess, and now it's going to cost them.
They will not voluntarily pay him anything. You think the trustees of the university, and since it is a public university, the Kentucky legislature is going to pay him to go away when his program was implicated like this in a DOJ investigation?
Not a chance. Rick may end up getting something, but it won't be without a fight. UL has no reason to pay him off.
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And I actually think Crean just might get a call. He's actually good at rebuilds and UL is going to be in tatters when this is done.
Do we think Crean wants to go through that again? Maybe it's the only way he gets somewhere with Louisville's prestige though.
Also, the way that the NCAA took away some of Penn Stte's penalties, it may make things a little easier if that's a precedent, but still an uphill battle.
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And I actually think Crean just might get a call. He's actually good at rebuilds and UL is going to be in tatters when this is done.
Even if it were for a one year interim gig, I think they could do a lot worse than TC.
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I wonder how many recruits will be declared ineligible?
This only impacts "high value" recruits, basically the can't miss prospects so we're talking probably 20 or less current players. Where the chaos will reign will be in the number of programs this hits and where their unimpacted but talented recruits go.
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Feds showed up to Yum Center with search warrants this morning, apparently confiscated some computers.
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Woj...LOL
Adrian Wojnarowski
Rick Pitino has probed NBA teams on return as a head coach in recent years, but there's been no interest in him. That's unlikely to change.
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They will not voluntarily pay him anything. You think the trustees of the university, and since it is a public university, the Kentucky legislature is going to pay him to go away when his program was implicated like this in a DOJ investigation?
Not a chance. Rick may end up getting something, but it won't be without a fight. UL has no reason to pay him off.
It is not the first DoJ investigation of Louisville under Rick. Porcini's was also a DoJ investigation. As was paying hookers to entertain players and recruits.
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It is not the first DoJ investigation of Louisville under Rick. Porcini's was also a DoJ investigation. As was paying hookers to entertain players and recruits.
But those didn't result in charges like this one did. And now with the Feds confiscating YUM Center computers? Rick will be lucky if UL doesn't sue him.
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But those didn't result in charges like this one did. And now with the Feds confiscating YUM Center computers? Rick will be lucky if UL doesn't sue him.
Rick has not been charged here either (at least not yet).
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Honest question for others following this: is the payment of recruits illegal? The people who were arrested yesterday were tied up in accepting bribes to steer NBA-bound athletes to certain agents/advisers/sponsors. It's my understanding that the illegality is related to the fact that they are employed by institutions that receive federal funds, so the taking of bribes in connection with influencing students is illegal. Frankly, I think that the press is doing a pretty crappy job of explaining the specifics surrounding the criminal allegations.
But is paying HS recruits illegal? Is Louisville/Petino actually facing criminal charges? Or are they just going to get hammered by NCAA?
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Paying him off is not just a legal question. It is a PR and a political one as well. Even if you think UL legally owes him the money, there are good reasons to make Rick fight for it.
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I hope this is the end for the horrible Adidas Uni's for March Madness.
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Paying him off is not just a legal question. It is a PR and a political one as well. Even if you think UL legally owes him the money, there are good reasons to make Rick fight for it.
Don't get me wrong. I think they'll probably make him fight for it. Both sides will file lawsuits and they'll take some depositions, and then they'll pay him. Quietly. And there will be a confidentiality agreement. And both sides will quietly intimate that they "won", but will be careful to do it in a way that does not violate the confidentiality agreement.
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Plot thickens...
Months before negotiating a 10 yr/$160 mil deal with Louisville, Adidas hired Jurich's daughter as a "NCAA Communication$ Brand Manager".
I'm $ure it'$ ju$t a coincidence.
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Honest question for others following this: is the payment of recruits illegal? The people who were arrested yesterday were tied up in accepting bribes to steer NBA-bound athletes to certain agents/advisers/sponsors. It's my understanding that the illegality is related to the fact that they are employed by institutions that receive federal funds, so the taking of bribes in connection with influencing students is illegal. Frankly, I think that the press is doing a pretty crappy job of explaining the specifics surrounding the criminal allegations.
But is paying HS recruits illegal? Is Louisville/Petino actually facing criminal charges? Or are they just going to get hammered by NCAA?
Here's 2 words for you. TAX EVASION
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Paying him off is not just a legal question. It is a PR and a political one as well. Even if you think UL legally owes him the money, there are good reasons to make Rick fight for it.
Unless some of the higher ups from the AD in Administration were complicit/aware as well...then they may want to pay him for as much non-disclosure security they can get (of course, now that it is in the feds hands, that may not be possible). Slick Rick could turn into a pretty powerful whistle-blower himself...
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The Louisville Courier-Journal states that firing him for "just cause" has now become a more plausible option. Pitino's contract language reportedly includes:
"Employee is presumed to be responsible for the actions of all assistant coaches and administrators who report, directly or indirectly, to him. Employee shall promote an atmosphere of compliance, academic integrity, and ethical conduct within his program and shall monitor the activities of all assistant coaches and administrators involved with the program who report, directly or indirectly, to him."
He's not talking his way out of this one. Dealing with the FBI and federal charges is a big step up from dealing with NCAA guidelines. Slick Rick could see prison time.
http://www.courier-journal.com/story/sports/college/louisville/2017/09/26/louisville-basketball-coach-rick-pitino-adidas-scandal-college-basketball/704604001/ (http://www.courier-journal.com/story/sports/college/louisville/2017/09/26/louisville-basketball-coach-rick-pitino-adidas-scandal-college-basketball/704604001/)
That is interesting language, and it might do the trick. I'd really like to see the contract. I'm looking for it.
The real question, from my perspective, is how does the contract define "for cause" (or whatever similar phrase used to identify that contact). That will be very specific language. The language the article quoted might be from that section. I don't know. But, it sounds kind of like "duties and responsibilities" language. Until I see the contract -- or at least full sections of it -- I'm going to withhold judgment on whether his discharge under the current set of facts violates his contract.
Ultimately, that will be a key question in all of this. I have absolutely no dispute with anyone who says that Pitino deserved to be fired. Unquestionably, he was. The question in my mind is whether the discharge was carried out in a manner that was in compliance with his contract. I have absolutely no idea at this point because I haven't reviewed the contract. And without doing that, all I'm really doing when I comment on their relative bargaining strength is speculating.
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Honest question for others following this: is the payment of recruits illegal? The people who were arrested yesterday were tied up in accepting bribes to steer NBA-bound athletes to certain agents/advisers/sponsors. It's my understanding that the illegality is related to the fact that they are employed by institutions that receive federal funds, so the taking of bribes in connection with influencing students is illegal. Frankly, I think that the press is doing a pretty crappy job of explaining the specifics surrounding the criminal allegations.
But is paying HS recruits illegal? Is Louisville/Petino actually facing criminal charges? Or are they just going to get hammered by NCAA?
It is classic bribery, they are being paid to influence people through their role(and the kicker is they are in public roles if they worked a private institution it would like be a different lesser charge)
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Fire Rick for cause. Make him sue. Negotiate from there after making him wait and go through legal maneuvers.
This.
So long, Rick.
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I'd really like to see the contract. I'm looking for it.
Here's an old version. (http://www.kentucky.com/latest-news/article42472677.ece/BINARY/Read%20a%20copy%20of%20Rick%20Pitino%27s%20employee%20contract%20with%20UofL)
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Here's 2 words for you. TAX EVASION
https://www.youtube.com/v/wpEaFmK3lrY
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Do we think Crean wants to go through that again? Maybe it's the only way he gets somewhere with Louisville's prestige though.
Also, the way that the NCAA took away some of Penn Stte's penalties, it may make things a little easier if that's a precedent, but still an uphill battle.
Penn State was a totally different situation. The NCAA was violating them for things that while illegal were not violations of NCAA regulations since the illegalities did not involve management of athletics. Penn State had a strong case and threatened to go to court.
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Here's 2 words for you. TAX EVASION
Exactly, all these people are filng out 1040s every January listing their payments and paying taxes on it?
Bowen will be listing $100k On his 2017 1040 and paying the government something around $35k to $40k of that in Taxes? If not it’s jail time
And Adidas or Louisville Or whoever paid him $100K is filling out a 1099 for the payment for 2017 And filing it with the IRS?
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Exactly, all these people are filng out 1040s every January listing their payments and paying taxes on it?
Bowen will be listing 100k On his 2017 1040 and paying the government something around $35 to $40,000 of that in Taxes? If not it’s jail time
The defense? "Well, no one sent me a 1099, so...."
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Exactly, all these people are filng out 1040s every January listing their payments and paying taxes on it?
Bowen will be listing 100k On his 2017 1040 and paying the government something around $35 to $40,000 of that in Taxes? If not it’s jail time
A couple things:
If this is from Adidas, would there be any illegality on the part of Pitino/Louisville?
Perhaps people are very generous...they were understood to be gifts.
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A couple things:
If this is from Adidas, would there be any illegality on the part of Pitino/Louisville?
Perhaps people are very generous...they were understood to be gifts.
If Adidas gave the kid's family $100,000, who do you think told the family to "keep it on the DL"?
If Pitino knew about it, he's toast. The family may have thought it was a gift, but Pitino knew damn well that it wasn't.
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A couple things:
If this is from Adidas, would there be any illegality on the part of Pitino/Louisville?
Perhaps people are very generous...they were understood to be gifts.
Please tell me your joking????
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The defense? "Well, no one sent me a 1099, so...."
Doesn’t matter. Did Bowen also estimate his withholdings on June 15 and September 15 and pay that amount so he doesn’t incur further penalties raising his overall tax burden? These are offenses that can lead you to going to prison.
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That is interesting language, and it might do the trick. I'd really like to see the contract. I'm looking for it.
The real question, from my perspective, is how does the contract define "for cause" (or whatever similar phrase used to identify that contact). That will be very specific language. The language the article quoted might be from that section. I don't know. But, it sounds kind of like "duties and responsibilities" language. Until I see the contract -- or at least full sections of it -- I'm going to withhold judgment on whether his discharge under the current set of facts violates his contract.
Ultimately, that will be a key question in all of this. I have absolutely no dispute with anyone who says that Pitino deserved to be fired. Unquestionably, he was. The question in my mind is whether the discharge was carried out in a manner that was in compliance with his contract. I have absolutely no idea at this point because I haven't reviewed the contract. And without doing that, all I'm really doing when I comment on their relative bargaining strength is speculating.
It was. The FBI has a Louisville assistant basketball coach on tape in Las Vegas talking about paying a recruit. Also, another Louisville coach (possibly Rick himself) saying that Adidas takes care of guys for them (or something close to that). See the contract language regarding Pitino's responsibility for the actions of all who report to him as well as the obligation to create an ethical environment.
It was incredibily arrogant of Pitino not to run as far away as he could from the Bowen recruitment given the circumstances.
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To be fair, I don't think the Bowen's got all of the $100,000 up front. Good grief.
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http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=20836549
Dickie on Ricky. Predictable.
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To be fair, I don't think the Bowen's got all of the $100,000 up front. Good grief.
If you get any of it in cash, as in paper bills, in more than $10,000 increments, that violated the patriot act. That’s 10 years in prison seazing of assets of not only him and his parents but also jail time for whoever gave them the money.
They send swat teams in Kevlar with A.R. 15’s to stick in your face when you start getting in this game.
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Exactly, all these people are filng out 1040s every January listing their payments and paying taxes on it?
Bowen will be listing $100k On his 2017 1040 and paying the government something around $35k to $40k of that in Taxes? If not it’s jail time
And Adidas or Louisville Or whoever paid him $100K is filling out a 1099 for the payment for 2017 And filing it with the IRS?
Weren't you arguing yesterday that this was a simple NCAA issue?
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Doesn’t matter. Did Bowen also estimate his withholdings on June 15 and September 15 and pay that amount so he doesn’t incur further penalties raising his overall tax burden? These are offenses that can lead you to going to prison.
No they are not.
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http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=20836549
Dickie on Ricky. Predictable.
Actually that was better than I thought it would be.
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Actually that was better than I thought it would be.
Agreed. That's probably the only interview with Dick Vitale every that I'd be willing to listen to again.
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I haven't cross-checked most of the coaches' histories to see what other schools (and specifically, Big East schools) could be implicated if these coaches start singing, but Emanuel Richardson was an assistant at Xavier with Sean Miller before following him to Arizona. Hopefully X is clean.
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http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=20836549
Dickie on Ricky. Predictable.
To me, it sounded like Dick Vitale is do heartbroken that he threw Coach K under the bus for cheating. That sure sounded like a Marvin Bagley indictment to me...
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It was. The FBI has a Louisville assistant basketball coach on tape in Las Vegas talking about paying a recruit. Also, another Louisville coach (possibly Rick himself) saying that Adidas takes care of guys for them (or something close to that). See the contract language regarding Pitino's responsibility for the actions of all who report to him as well as the obligation to create an ethical environment.
It was incredibily arrogant of Pitino not to run as far away as he could from the Bowen recruitment given the circumstances.
I found what I think is the current contract (http://media.bizj.us/view/img/8556042/pitino-current-contract.pdf). As I suspected, the language quoted in that article is from his duties section. And it goes on to define a long list of things he has to do in connection with that. But, the definition of "just cause" is fairly strong, as I expected it would be.
Listen, I can't stand Pitino. I think he's a scumbag, and is finally getting what's coming to him. But, like many, many coaches before him, he has a contract that makes it difficult to fire him without paying him out.
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Can't see how anyone but Crean isn't named interim coach. Louisville can't name an interim coach from the current staff.
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If Adidas gave the kid's family $100,000, who do you think told the family to "keep it on the DL"?
If Pitino knew about it, he's toast. The family may have thought it was a gift, but Pitino knew damn well that it wasn't.
But there are two things going on here: obvious and blatant NCAA violations and violations of the law. I'm merely asking questions. Even if they gave the kid a t-shirt, they'd tell him to "keep in on the DL." Because they were already on probation and they don't want more trouble with the NCAA.
But is it illegal? That's what I'm asking? If Adidas paid this kid money, did Pitino break the law? One of the main reasons I'm asking is that based on my understanding of what happened yesterday (which may be wrong---that's why I'm asking) the people who got arrested were involved in taking bribes to steer NBA-bound college players; not for paying recruits (even though at least one did both). I find myself wondering why the Louisville coach who apparently is on video making these arrangements and asking that they be kept "on the DL" was not arrested. He seemed concerned about the NCAA and the probation, not the FBI.
Again, I'm only asking.
Edited to add: I am aware that if Adidas broke the law and Pitino was aware of and/or involved in it, he is probably screwed on conspiracy. But he might have plausible deniability. That might not be good enough under his contract depending upon how language quoted up-thread is interpreted. But it might keep him out of the FBI's net...for now.
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Agreed. That's probably the only interview with Dick Vitale every that I'd be willing to listen to again.
Yeah, I expected that Dickie would have given Pitino the Porcini's treatment.
Predictable in his outrage that something like this could happen.
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Please tell me your joking????
No. I'm not. That kid's family might well have two options at this point. Claim the income and pay taxes (it probably was in 2017). Claim it was a gift. Obviously, it wasn't, and they should probably come clean.
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Can't see how anyone but Crean isn't named interim coach. Louisville can't name an interim coach from the current staff.
How about JTIII? (However, current team would be playing an entirely different style than what they came to Louisville for).
Crean seems like he could fit - despite me joking about it a few pages back.
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Sorry...somehow double-posted.
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Hold on to your butts everyone...
https://twitter.com/DarrenHeitner/status/913095940134903815 (https://twitter.com/DarrenHeitner/status/913095940134903815)
Sources: Employees of Nike's EYBL grassroots division, along with documents, have been subpoenaed by FBI in furtherance of investigation
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Hold on to your butts everyone...
https://twitter.com/DarrenHeitner/status/913095940134903815 (https://twitter.com/DarrenHeitner/status/913095940134903815)
We need to bring back LA Gear.
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Hold on to your butts everyone...
https://twitter.com/DarrenHeitner/status/913095940134903815 (https://twitter.com/DarrenHeitner/status/913095940134903815)
This one is going to be very intriguing. Following the money trail on this one will be a heck of a storyline to follow.
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This one is going to be very intriguing. Following the money trail on this one will be a heck of a storyline to follow.
I'm guessing a lot of basketball coaches called their lawyers yesterday. And didn't sleep too well. I really hope that none of them are wearing (or have worn) Marquette colors. But this is going to take a while to play out.
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A writer on Twitter mentioned Crean for Louisville saying he was squeaky clean. Doesn't mean a ton, but I'd guess there'd be an inkling from writers if someone was dirty.
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Hold on to your butts everyone...
https://twitter.com/DarrenHeitner/status/913095940134903815 (https://twitter.com/DarrenHeitner/status/913095940134903815)
from the comments
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKv71FyXoAISfDp.jpg)
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There's a great SI article by Michael McCann that offers more detail about the charges and potential impact of the investigation. A few excerpts:
For one, the alleged bribe took place across state lines, meaning the persons travelled to different states or communicated across state lines. Such "interstate" activity triggered the possibility of federal charges for conspiracy, bribery, fraud and other crimes.
Brian Bowen went to high school in Indiana. U of L is in Kentucky. Adidas USA corporate headquarters is in Oregon. So any communication or meetings between Louisville coaches, Adidas representatives and Brian put a payoff in the federal realm.
In addition, the federal government financially supports both public and private universities, including through financial student aid, grants and tax breaks...the Justice Department charges that the coaches and financial advisors conspired to commit bribery through educational programs that receive federal funds.
In essence, bribing Brian Bowen to attend Louisville equates to theft. The coaches (possibly including Pitino) don't have to offer the bribe themselves — but if they're involved in any discussions or meetings, they're part of the conspiracy. They're also charged with wire fraud for using a cell phone in interstate commerce to engage in fraudulent acts.
The defendants allegedly "concealed bribe payments to high school student-athletes and/or their families" in exchange for matriculating to particular universities. By accepting those bribes...the players became ineligible to compete in the NCAA.
Throw in money laundering charges for efforts to make illegal payments seem legitimate. All told, you're talking about maximum sentences ranging from 50 to 80 years in prison. And a recruited player who loses his eligibility as a result could sue the recruiting school.
https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2017/09/26/fbi-corruption-college-basketball-fraud-louisville-bribe (https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2017/09/26/fbi-corruption-college-basketball-fraud-louisville-bribe)
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Crean sucks
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There's a great SI article by Michael McCann that offers more detail about the charges and potential impact of the investigation. A few excerpts:
For one, the alleged bribe took place across state lines, meaning the persons travelled to different states or communicated across state lines. Such "interstate" activity triggered the possibility of federal charges for conspiracy, bribery, fraud and other crimes.
Brian Bowen went to high school in Indiana. U of L is in Kentucky. Adidas USA corporate headquarters is in Oregon. So any communication or meetings between Louisville coaches, Adidas representatives and Brian put a payoff in the federal realm.
In addition, the federal government financially supports both public and private universities, including through financial student aid, grants and tax breaks...the Justice Department charges that the coaches and financial advisors conspired to commit bribery through educational programs that receive federal funds.
In essence, bribing Brian Bowen to attend Louisville equates to theft. The coaches (possibly including Pitino) don't have to offer the bribe themselves — but if they're involved in any discussions or meetings, they're part of the conspiracy. They're also charged with wire fraud for using a cell phone in interstate commerce to engage in fraudulent acts.
The defendants allegedly "concealed bribe payments to high school student-athletes and/or their families" in exchange for matriculating to particular universities. By accepting those bribes...the players became ineligible to compete in the NCAA.
Throw in money laundering charges for efforts to make illegal payments seem legitimate. All told, you're talking about maximum sentences ranging from 50 to 80 years in prison. And a recruited player who loses his eligibility as a result could sue the recruiting school.
https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2017/09/26/fbi-corruption-college-basketball-fraud-louisville-bribe (https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2017/09/26/fbi-corruption-college-basketball-fraud-louisville-bribe)
Thanks for the link. That is really the first article I've seen that laid things out that clearly.
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Can't see how anyone but Crean isn't named interim coach. Louisville can't name an interim coach from the current staff.
Ah yes, the bewildering and rare triple negative. Impressive.
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But there are two things going on here: obvious and blatant NCAA violations and violations of the law. I'm merely asking questions. Even if they gave the kid a t-shirt, they'd tell him to "keep in on the DL." Because they were already on probation and they don't want more trouble with the NCAA.
But is it illegal? That's what I'm asking? If Adidas paid this kid money, did Pitino break the law? One of the main reasons I'm asking is that based on my understanding of what happened yesterday (which may be wrong---that's why I'm asking) the people who got arrested were involved in taking bribes to steer NBA-bound college players; not for paying recruits (even though at least one did both). I find myself wondering why the Louisville coach who apparently is on video making these arrangements and asking that they be kept "on the DL" was not arrested. He seemed concerned about the NCAA and the probation, not the FBI.
Again, I'm only asking.
Edited to add: I am aware that if Adidas broke the law and Pitino was aware of and/or involved in it, he is probably screwed on conspiracy. But he might have plausible deniability. That might not be good enough under his contract depending upon how language quoted up-thread is interpreted. But it might keep him out of the FBI's net...for now.
A person in a position of authority who orchestrates a payment of $100,000 to an impressionable teenager (or his family) and then tells them not to include it on their tax return (or do anything else that would raise suspicion), you better believe that's illegal.
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A person in a position of authority who orchestrates a payment of $100,000 to an impressionable teenager (or his family) and then tells them not to include it on their tax return (or do anything else that would raise suspicion), you better believe that's illegal.
Yeah, I suspect you're right.
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A writer on Twitter mentioned Crean for Louisville saying he was squeaky clean. Doesn't mean a ton, but I'd guess there'd be an inkling from writers if someone was dirty.
This one from Crean's IU days was very squirmy...
http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=6587669
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Maybe if you were an employed American in the United States with a real career these types of comments would not come out?
PS- Myles Turner... 2013 http://latenighthoops.com/ny2la-spring-2013-mn/#.WcsR_VtSzIU
You are our resident law & order guy and you are close to the AAU basketball scene.
How much did you know of these crooked dealings? What rumblings did you hear? Did you report anything that didn't sound like it was on the up and up?
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Crean was never squeaky clean, no matter what Chico's said. Lots of squirmy there. Crean to Louisville is interesting. On the one hand, does he want to jump back in the game this soon to a program that potentially could face the death penalty? If so, will he have an 'interim' next to his name? Or does he want to take the year off, let the dust settle, and swoop in late next spring?
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Don't know if it was posted here yet, but ESPN 100 prospects Anfernee Simons and Courtney Ramey both decommitted from Louisville today.
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Would Crean want the job now? Does he forego Indiana buyout dollars if he gets another job this quickly?
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Haven't seen his name posted, but Thad Matta is another possibility.
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A couple things:
Perhaps people are very generous...they were understood to be gifts.
I believe the greatest ability that humans have is self justification.
These are gifts, so they would not be income would fall into this category.
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Crean sucks
Even more, if he becomes coach of Louisville.
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I believe the greatest ability that humans have is self justification.
These are gifts, so they would not be income would fall into this category.
Honest question: Did Reggie Bush -- just the most prominent example I can think of -- get in trouble for tax issues? Did he pay taxes? Did he claim that those were gifts? I honestly don't know, and haven't been able to quickly find the answer. Wondering if anyone else knows.
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I believe the greatest ability that humans have is self justification.
These are gifts, so they would not be income would fall into this category.
Except there is a limit to how much you can receive as a gift. $100,000 is well over the yearly limit.
"Totally separate from the lifetime gift exemption amount is the annual gift tax exclusion amount. It’s $14,000 for 2017, stuck at that level since 2013. You can give away $14,000 to as many individuals as you’d like. A husband and wife can each make $14,000 gifts. So a couple could make $14,000 gifts to each of their four grandchildren, for a total of $112,000. The annual exclusion gifts don’t count towards the lifetime gift exemption. Stuffing 529 college savings accounts or funding a gift trust are two ways to prepare your heirs for college."
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ashleaebeling/2016/10/25/irs-announces-2017-estate-and-gift-tax-limits-the-11-million-tax-break/#3a76e8443b70 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/ashleaebeling/2016/10/25/irs-announces-2017-estate-and-gift-tax-limits-the-11-million-tax-break/#3a76e8443b70)
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Except there is a limit to how much you can receive as a gift. $100,000 is well over the yearly limit.
"Totally separate from the lifetime gift exemption amount is the annual gift tax exclusion amount. It’s $14,000 for 2017, stuck at that level since 2013. You can give away $14,000 to as many individuals as you’d like. A husband and wife can each make $14,000 gifts. So a couple could make $14,000 gifts to each of their four grandchildren, for a total of $112,000. The annual exclusion gifts don’t count towards the lifetime gift exemption. Stuffing 529 college savings accounts or funding a gift trust are two ways to prepare your heirs for college."
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ashleaebeling/2016/10/25/irs-announces-2017-estate-and-gift-tax-limits-the-11-million-tax-break/#3a76e8443b70 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/ashleaebeling/2016/10/25/irs-announces-2017-estate-and-gift-tax-limits-the-11-million-tax-break/#3a76e8443b70)
I don't think you are correct. The gift giver pays the tax, not the recipient. The limit you're citing is the limit that the giver can gift without paying taxes. I believe that there is no limit to the amount that can be received. So, this would be an issue for the people who payed the athlete's family, and not necessarily for the family. At least that's the potential argument.
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Surprise, surprise, hey?
1 hour ago – via USA Today Sports
As the college basketball world was shaken by the FBI indictments and Rick Pitino’s ousting at Louisville, Beasley spoke out on the corrupt culture in college basketball. Beasley was a top-5 recruit out of high school who chose to go to college in Manhattan, Kan., without ever visiting the school during his recruitment. This was what he had to say on Wednesday, even adding that he’s personally responsible for the population growth in Manhattan, Kan. He said via Mike Vorkunov: “Man, you guys are just catching on. And that’s all I gotta say.
Coaching, FIBA, High School, Law, Louisville, NCAA, Rick Pitino, Michael Beasley, New York Knicks
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Surprise, surprise, hey?
1 hour ago – via USA Today Sports
As the college basketball world was shaken by the FBI indictments and Rick Pitino’s ousting at Louisville, Beasley spoke out on the corrupt culture in college basketball. Beasley was a top-5 recruit out of high school who chose to go to college in Manhattan, Kan., without ever visiting the school during his recruitment. This was what he had to say on Wednesday, even adding that he’s personally responsible for the population growth in Manhattan, Kan. He said via Mike Vorkunov: “Man, you guys are just catching on. And that’s all I gotta say.
Coaching, FIBA, High School, Law, Louisville, NCAA, Rick Pitino, Michael Beasley, New York Knicks
Any way to retroactively bump us up a seed line?
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I don't think you are correct. The gift giver pays the tax, not the recipient. The limit you're citing is the limit that the giver can gift without paying taxes. I believe that there is no limit to the amount that can be received. So, this would be an issue for the people who payed the athlete's family, and not necessarily for the family. At least that's the potential argument.
You guys are close. The total amount you can give away per year is $14,000 to any one specific individual without having to fill out a nice gift tax form (with some exceptions) or pay a tax. Then, there is the lifetime exclusion, which allows you to give out over $5,000,000 million (5.49 to be exact) over your lifetime. However, every penny you give away reduces the amount you can give away free of taxes from your estate when you kick the bucket. So, in exchange for nice ballers at your university of choice, you may be screwing the little you's or other beneficiaries floating around in the world. It might be advisable to see if your little you's can ball before giving away moola.
So, if you GAVE $100,000 to a certain baller, you would file a tax return in the amount of $86,000 but you wouldn't be taxed as long as it is deducted from your life-time exclusion. Now, if you've been giving away LOTS of money over time to LOTS of ballers, and you get near the $5,000,000 million mark in your life, you may veer near paying taxes. So, please take care when providing numerous gifts to numerous ballers.
As an aside, I don't like the IRS so I file gift tax returns on everything I give, just to make their life interesting. That includes candy bars, greeting cards, pencils, and just about everything else other than hugs. Hugs are free. Note: A hug isn't a hug unless its ten seconds long, and it isn't legit unless its thirty seconds long.
Pitino needs a hug.
In sum - If you give a baller $100,000 to attend a certain coach's university, you may end up owing that coach a tax free hug down the line.
**DISCLAIMER: Nothing in this posting is intended to serve as tax advice and anyone seeking actual tax advice should employ the services of a tax specialist, unlike myself. Further, this writer limits any and all liability associated from any hug that lasts thirty seconds long. "Legit" hugs should be undertaken with great care and caution. Finally, Rick Pitino is slimy. Don't hug him.
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You guys are close. The total amount you can give away per year is $14,000 to any one specific individual without having to fill out a nice gift tax form (with some exceptions) or pay a tax. Then, there is the lifetime exclusion, which allows you to give out over $5,000,000 million (5.49 to be exact) over your lifetime. However, every penny you give away reduces the amount you can give away free of taxes from your estate when you kick the bucket. So, in exchange for nice ballers at your university of choice, you may be screwing the little you's or other beneficiaries floating around in the world. It might be advisable to see if your little you's can ball before giving away moola.
So, if you GAVE $100,000 to a certain baller, you would file a tax return in the amount of $86,000 but you wouldn't be taxed as long as it is deducted from your life-time exclusion. Now, if you've been giving away LOTS of money over time to LOTS of ballers, and you get near the $5,000,000 million mark in your life, you may veer near paying taxes. So, please take care when providing numerous gifts to numerous ballers.
As an aside, I don't like the IRS so I file gift tax returns on everything I give, just to make their life interesting. That includes candy bars, greeting cards, pencils, and just about everything else other than hugs. Hugs are free. Note: A hug isn't a hug unless its ten seconds long, and it isn't legit unless its thirty seconds long.
Pitino needs a hug.
In sum - If you give a baller $100,000 to attend a certain coach's university, you may end up owing that coach a tax free hug down the line.
**DISCLAIMER: Nothing in this posting is intended to serve as tax advice and anyone seeking actual tax advice should employ the services of a tax specialist, unlike myself. Further, this writer limits any and all liability associated from any hug that lasts thirty seconds long. "Legit" hugs should be undertaken with great care and caution. Finally, Rick Pitino is slimy. Don't hug him.
It’s not a gift, it’s payment for services. He’s given money and is expected to go to Louisville and play on the basketball team. He’s not given money and expected to do nothing in return. Therefore it is income.
Is he breaking tax laws if he doesn’t report properly, yes. Did Reggie Bush break tax laws, yes. But they chose not to prosecute Bush and they may choose not to prosecute Bowen. But choosing not to prosecute him doesn’t mean he didn’t break the law.
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It’s not a gift, it’s payment for services. He’s given money and is expected to go to Louisville and play on the basketball team. He’s not given money and expected to do nothing in return. Therefore it is income.
Exactly. Give the IRS a little credit for being able to see through this type of scheme.
Don't think that before now, people have never tried the old, "Out of the kindness of his heart, this person voluntarily helps me out every day at my business, and because I am so grateful, I give him a gift of cash every Friday".
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Bama Associate AD resigned this afternoon, after Bama did an internal audit on men's basketball today. He used to work for the NCAA Enforcement Division.
Can't make this stuff up.
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It’s not a gift, it’s payment for services. He’s given money and is expected to go to Louisville and play on the basketball team. He’s not given money and expected to do nothing in return. Therefore it is income.
Is he breaking tax laws if he doesn’t report properly, yes. Did Reggie Bush break tax laws, yes. But they chose not to prosecute Bush and they may choose not to prosecute Bowen. But choosing not to prosecute him doesn’t mean he didn’t break the law.
Oh, I know. I just wanted to work a way to inform everyone that Rick Pitino is slimy (common knowledge) and that you should not give him a hug (perhaps not so common knowledge; see Karen Sypher).
The wonderful earlier posters were discussing IF it were considered a gift, what would the tax implications be. So, I used my intricate knowledge of meaningless facts to attempt to assist them. I wasn't suggesting it would truly be considered a gift. Frankly, it is not. Now a hug, well that is a different thing altogether.
I am also prepared to discuss, with as little expertise or knowledge, thermodynamics, the rules of the sport of cricket, first amendment constitutional law, the migratory patterns of Canadian geese, how to make a roux, Bernard Hinault, the evolution of the clock, and The Great Pig War, among other items.
Cheers!
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Oh, I know. I just wanted to work a way to inform everyone that Rick Pitino is slimy (common knowledge) and that you should not give him a hug (perhaps not so common knowledge; see Karen Sypher).
The wonderful earlier posters were discussing IF it were considered a gift, what would the tax implications be. So, I used my intricate knowledge of meaningless facts to attempt to assist them. I wasn't suggesting it would truly be considered a gift. Frankly, it is not. Now a hug, well that is a different thing altogether.
I am also prepared to discuss, with as little expertise or knowledge, thermodynamics, the rules of the sport of cricket, first amendment constitutional law, the migratory patterns of Canadian geese, how to make a roux, Bernard Hinault, the evolution of the clock, and The Great Pig War, among other items.
Cheers!
What's the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
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What's the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
African or European?
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African or European?
Huh? I don't know that. [Troll catapulted away with a scream.]
Well done. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2R3FvS4xr4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2R3FvS4xr4)
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https://www.azdesertswarm.com/platform/amp/basketball/2017/9/27/16376992/arizona-wildcats-basketball-allegedly-offered-recruit-150000-fbi-documents-charges-book-richardson
Arizona.....if true, this will get really interesting.
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https://www.azdesertswarm.com/platform/amp/basketball/2017/9/27/16376992/arizona-wildcats-basketball-allegedly-offered-recruit-150000-fbi-documents-charges-book-richardson
Arizona.....if true, this will get really interesting.
Also interesting that apparently Quinerly was paid to commit to Arizona. Things do not look good in the desert.
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Another good article on the unfolding scandal, this one from ESPN. A few of my favorite excerpts:
When Dawkins mentioned they'd have to be careful because the Cardinals were already on NCAA probation, the Louisville assistant agreed. "We gotta be very low-key," he said.
Sure, sure, it's all good as long as you're low-key about it.
"If we take care of everybody and everything is done, we control everything," Dawkins boasted to an undercover agent. "You can make millions off of one kid."
In under 25 words, this guy just made the prosecution's conspiracy case.
Dawkins told the undercover agent he was in the process of drafting agreements for the parents they were already paying. "Obviously, we have to put funding out, and obviously some of it can't be completely accounted for on paper because some of it is, whatever you want to call it, illegal," he said.
Whatever you want to call it. In this case, federal money laundering.
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20834050/the-story-how-fbi-brought-words-corruption (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20834050/the-story-how-fbi-brought-words-corruption)
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/how-college-hoops-corruption-became-a-federal-investigation-and-why-it-might-get-bigger/2017/09/27/dfdfa6e0-a3d6-11e7-ade1-76d061d56efa_story.html?tid=sm_tw&utm_term=.09a172f5cfec
This isn't going to get smaller.
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and The Great Pig War, among other items.
The pig war is an amazing topic. Probably worth a superbar thread. And I'm 100% serious about that.
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http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20838495/louisville-brian-bowen-suspended-indefinitely-withheld-practices-workouts
http://es.pn/2xG7u3b
Bowen suspended indefinitely at Louisville.
He is number 14 on ESPN top 100 for 2017.
How toxic is he? He will now transfer, how difficult would it be for a Michigan State (his other finalist) or even an MU to pick him up?
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Haven't seen his name posted, but Thad Matta is another possibility.
Matta no matta
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http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20838495/louisville-brian-bowen-suspended-indefinitely-withheld-practices-workouts
http://es.pn/2xG7u3b
Bowen suspended indefinitely at Louisville.
He is number 14 on ESPN top 100 for 2017.
How toxic is he? He will now transfer, how difficult would it be for a Michigan State (his other finalist) or even an MU to pick him up?
He might be easy to pickup, but I'm guessing he'll be very difficult to get eligible with the NCAA.
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/how-college-hoops-corruption-became-a-federal-investigation-and-why-it-might-get-bigger/2017/09/27/dfdfa6e0-a3d6-11e7-ade1-76d061d56efa_story.html?tid=sm_tw&utm_term=.09a172f5cfec
This isn't going to get smaller.
Pitino, and probably some other big names are going to be headed to jail..... Lots of people are going to sing as self preservation. I don't think too many coaches are sleeping real well right now. I follow Buzz on twitter and he hasn't even mentioned any of it. Interesting.
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He might be easy to pickup, but I'm guessing he'll be very difficult to get eligible with the NCAA.
My guess is that he will be playing D-League this year.
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Here is the thing that strikes me. I don't think that anybody ever believed that it rose to being a criminal offense. Yes, it was dirty, but it was widespread and pervasive. Now it turns out it is a criminal offense. And, while it is true that there are far bigger fish to fry out there and far more destructive crimes, the federales have turned their attention toward it. And the prospect of 20 years in prison is going to cause a lot of these coaches, shoe reps, agents to sing. So, I am not going to rest easy about MU's involvement, current or past, for probably a year. Because this is just the first boulder coming down that snow covered mountain.
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Forget the shoe companies and major programs here for a minute. What if the NCAA is the real big fish that the feds are after here?
What are the odds that all of this money being thrown around hasn't made it up the food chain to NCAA officials to look the other way? This has gone on for decades and very rarely has anything come of it. Why is that?
Proof would be difficult, but if they knock on enough doors one would think they'd eventually find it.
The consequences of that could be staggering.
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Forget the shoe companies and major programs here for a minute. What if the NCAA is the real big fish that the feds are after here?
What are the odds that all of this money being thrown around hasn't made it up the food chain to NCAA officials to look the other way? This has gone on for decades and very rarely has anything come of it. Why is that?
Proof would be difficult, but if they knock on enough doors one would think they'd eventually find it.
The consequences of that could be staggering.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_HXP2Z5GXFO8/S_tEWsODbnI/AAAAAAAAII8/ZOz6bl98b2A/s1600/tin+foil+hat.jpg)
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https://www.chatsports.com/kansas-jayhawks/a/sources-adidas-was-trying-steer-five-star-2018-recruit-kansas-35608
If true could/would Adidas act on a recruit without knowledge of the university????
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Here is the thing that strikes me. I don't think that anybody ever believed that it rose to being a criminal offense. Yes, it was dirty, but it was widespread and pervasive. Now it turns out it is a criminal offense. And, while it is true that there are far bigger fish to fry out there and far more destructive crimes, the federales have turned their attention toward it. And the prospect of 20 years in prison is going to cause a lot of these coaches, shoe reps, agents to sing. So, I am not going to rest easy about MU's involvement, current or past, for probably a year. Because this is just the first boulder coming down that snow covered mountain.
The interesting thing to me is that this has happened before.
https://sports.yahoo.com/former-aau-basketball-coach-says-wrapped-college-basketball-scandal-will-flip-feds-034806204.html
This guy spent 37 months in prison for what sounds like a similar situation. It didn't snowball because he was the only arrest and he refused to name names. One would think this case would have been at least a warning that there could be criminal laws being broken here.
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(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_HXP2Z5GXFO8/S_tEWsODbnI/AAAAAAAAII8/ZOz6bl98b2A/s1600/tin+foil+hat.jpg)
Do you have an alternative explanation for the numerous examples of investigative and enforcement inequities by NCAA over the years?
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https://www.chatsports.com/kansas-jayhawks/a/sources-adidas-was-trying-steer-five-star-2018-recruit-kansas-35608
If true could/would Adidas act on a recruit without knowledge of the university????
I am skeptical of any article that contains the words "sources told Chat Sports exclusively" in it. If you're going to break a story, why would you go to chat sports?
That being said, if Adidas was willing to shell out 100K for the #19 ranked 2017 player to go to Louisville, It stands to reason that they would be willing to throw money at the #1 ranked player (whose AAU team is Adidas) to go to Kansas.
As for the school knowing, of course they would know if it was happening. However they may have set up some plausible deniability.
Anyone tweet this article to Grimes yet?
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Pitino, and probably some other big names are going to be headed to jail..... Lots of people are going to sing as self preservation. I don't think too many coaches are sleeping real well right now. I follow Buzz on twitter and he hasn't even mentioned any of it. Interesting.
Pitino has not been charged with anything.
Here is the thing that strikes me. I don't think that anybody ever believed that it rose to being a criminal offense. Yes, it was dirty, but it was widespread and pervasive. Now it turns out it is a criminal offense. And, while it is true that there are far bigger fish to fry out there and far more destructive crimes, the federales have turned their attention toward it. And the prospect of 20 years in prison is going to cause a lot of these coaches, shoe reps, agents to sing. So, I am not going to rest easy about MU's involvement, current or past, for probably a year. Because this is just the first boulder coming down that snow covered mountain.
No one is going to jail for 20 years.
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(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_HXP2Z5GXFO8/S_tEWsODbnI/AAAAAAAAII8/ZOz6bl98b2A/s1600/tin+foil+hat.jpg)
Congress is already asking for briefings from the NCAA on the topic of the scandal. You don't think there is investigative pressure from the FBI coming up the other side?
http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-congress-college-basketball-20170928-story.html (http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-congress-college-basketball-20170928-story.html)
“The federal government’s investigation into sports companies and basketball coaches at numerous colleges across the nation is extremely troubling and puts into serious question the NCAA’s ability to oversee its own institutions,” Rep. Greg Walden (R-Ore.) and Rep. Frank Pallone Jr. (D-N.J.) said in a joint statement Thursday.
“In addition to any criminal activities, these allegations raise concerns about the effects of these predatory schemes on youth athletes and how hidden financial connections between advertisers and endorsers influence young consumers.”
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This group of 10 who have been arrested are going to be used/interviewed to go after big fish, if there are any. In exchange they won't be going for to jail for 20 years. You can bet these guys are all asking for immunity if they roll.
This is going to get pretty wild, and how far back will this go. Would a Kansas or North Carolina get in trouble for something that happened 10 years ago. Crazy times
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Congress is already asking for briefings from the NCAA on the topic of the scandal. You don't think there is investigative pressure from the FBI coming up the other side?
http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-congress-college-basketball-20170928-story.html (http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-congress-college-basketball-20170928-story.html)
“The federal government’s investigation into sports companies and basketball coaches at numerous colleges across the nation is extremely troubling and puts into serious question the NCAA’s ability to oversee its own institutions,” Rep. Greg Walden (R-Ore.) and Rep. Frank Pallone Jr. (D-N.J.) said in a joint statement Thursday.
“In addition to any criminal activities, these allegations raise concerns about the effects of these predatory schemes on youth athletes and how hidden financial connections between advertisers and endorsers influence young consumers.”
This is a typical knee-jerk response by Congress. However it may have an influence on the direction taken in an investigation where, due to the depth and scope, the trail of shoe money may lead to Indianapolis.
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Try and hold back your tears when reading this touching story about pain and suffering.
Rock Bottom: The Pain and Shame of a Louisville Basketball Fan
A diehard fan of an iconic basketball program reckons with a devastating scandal
https://www.wsj.com/articles/rock-bottom-the-pain-and-shame-of-a-louisville-basketball-fan-1506606948?mod=trending_now_
So this is what rock bottom feels like.
Shame, betrayal, anger. Like a metal bat whacked to the shin while stepping on a Lego while naked in your boss’s office.
This is the fate of Louisville men’s basketball. And this is the fate of my own sports fandom. The team that I have followed my entire life—for which I was even a sweat-mopping ballboy—has been revealed by federal wiretaps to allegedly be heinously crooked and incompetent.
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Do you have an alternative explanation for the numerous examples of investigative and enforcement inequities by NCAA over the years?
Yes. The NCAA is made up of members who set the own rules for enforcement. Furthermore its own membership doesn't provide it with the resources it needs to do an adequate job.
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Another interesting angle to the story:
College basketball’s corrupt culture is going up against perhaps the most prestigious U.S. Attorney’s office in the country, the Southern District of New York. And this could end up as mismatched as a No. 1 vs. No. 16 seed in the NCAA tournament. Alums of that office include former New York mayor Rudy Giuliani, former FBI director James Comey and recent Donald Trump nemesis, Preet Bharara. Former FBI director Louis Freeh also worked in that office, and he just got hired by USC to investigate what happened with assistant coach Tony Bland’s arrest. A New York Times story from 2009 called the office “A Stepping Stone for Law’s Best and Brightest.” One of the lead characters in the television show “Billions” is the U.S. Attorney of the Southern District of New York.
The article points out that there could be some especially go-getting attorney in that office who wants this scandal to be as wide as it can in order to generate publicity. A rejoinder to anyone claiming that the Feds won't push this case hard because there are bigger fish to fry.
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Yes. The NCAA is made up of members who set the own rules for enforcement. Furthermore its own membership doesn't provide it with the resources it needs to do an adequate job.
Well that's been their mantra for as long as I can remember. It doesn't discount the possibility that their inability to do the job even in the most extreme and flagrant cases may be due to "resources" that vested interests may provide.
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Yes. The NCAA is made up of members who set the own rules for enforcement. Furthermore its own membership doesn't provide it with the resources it needs to do an adequate job.
Here's an honest question that I'm not sure about. Where does the responsibility for enforcing the rules to the point of prevention of systemic and persistent commission of federal crimes lie? I don't know if that is explicitly within the NCAA enforcement mandate, but doesn't the responsibility to prevent federal crimes from occurring through activities falling within the governance of an organization have to be implicit?
For example, the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act exists to prevent any person or business in the US from even attempting to offer illicit payments to "foreign officials" to secure business outside the US. Companies subject to the FCPA typically develop internal policies to enforce compliance, and strict reporting requirements for everyone in the business are established to facilitate self regulation.
The consequences for violating the FCPA are ENORMOUS, and ignorance of the activity within an organization for any reason (specifically lack of enforcement resources) is not an acceptable defense.
Wouldn't this be a similar situation?
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Another interesting angle to the story:
College basketball’s corrupt culture is going up against perhaps the most prestigious U.S. Attorney’s office in the country, the Southern District of New York. And this could end up as mismatched as a No. 1 vs. No. 16 seed in the NCAA tournament. Alums of that office include former New York mayor Rudy Giuliani, former FBI director James Comey and recent Donald Trump nemesis, Preet Bharara. Former FBI director Louis Freeh also worked in that office, and he just got hired by USC to investigate what happened with assistant coach Tony Bland’s arrest. A New York Times story from 2009 called the office “A Stepping Stone for Law’s Best and Brightest.” One of the lead characters in the television show “Billions” is the U.S. Attorney of the Southern District of New York.
The article points out that there could be some especially go-getting attorney in that office who wants this scandal to be as wide as it can in order to generate publicity. A rejoinder to anyone claiming that the Feds won't push this case hard because there are bigger fish to fry.
Another way to say the same thing is the Southern District of Manhattan is full of self-absorbed scumbags with political ambition and took on a case of marginal importance because it will generate huge publicly that they can use to launch a political career. Becuase increasing the favorability and name recognition of the District Attorney is the first, and most important, reason for taking on a case. Weighing the department's limited resources against which crimes hurt society the most is not the calculus in this office.
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Do you have an alternative explanation for the numerous examples of investigative and enforcement inequities by NCAA over the years?
My fault, I'm sure, but I totaly missed the post where you enumerated and proved these "inequities".
1. Stating one's own opinion as fact, and
2. assuming guilt of a party (NCAA) without a scintilla of evidence -
two components of any tin hat theory.
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Another way to say the same thing is the Southern District of Manhattan is full of self-absorbed scumbags with political ambition and took on a case of marginal importance because it will generate huge publicly that they can use to launch a political career. Becuase increasing the favorability and name recognition of the District Attorney is the first, and most important, reason for taking on a case. Weighing the department's limited resources against which crimes hurt society the most is not the calculus in this office.
No matter the motives this was LONG overdue and the blue bloods and other schools who cheat are finally getting their privileges checked. Its Ok if the blue blood moniker changes to other schools, college basketball from a fan perspective isn't great just because Duke, Kansas, Kentucky and Louisville are in the Final Four every year or so. Its great because of things like Butler making the Final game two years in a row. Gonzaga finally making the final game and Wisconsin (only an example) playing in the championship game, etc..... Thats what makes this game great, now lets CLEAN IT UP once and for all (or at least for the foreseeable future).
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Congress is already asking for briefings from the NCAA on the topic of the scandal. You don't think there is investigative pressure from the FBI coming up the other side?
http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-congress-college-basketball-20170928-story.html (http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-congress-college-basketball-20170928-story.html)
“The federal government’s investigation into sports companies and basketball coaches at numerous colleges across the nation is extremely troubling and puts into serious question the NCAA’s ability to oversee its own institutions,” Rep. Greg Walden (R-Ore.) and Rep. Frank Pallone Jr. (D-N.J.) said in a joint statement Thursday.
“In addition to any criminal activities, these allegations raise concerns about the effects of these predatory schemes on youth athletes and how hidden financial connections between advertisers and endorsers influence young consumers.”
Questioning the NCAA's competence and accusing members of its enforcement arm of criminal activity are worlds apart.
The NCAA is a voluntary organization without the investigative tools that law enforcement has at its disposal. While they may hold leverage over the employees and student athletes of its members it has none over AAU ball coaches, street agents, professional players, agents who represent them.
I can't prove the negative that no NCAA enforcement staff engaged in criminal activity, but I can and do choose to not go there until some report somewhere from any credible source makes that accusation.
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Another interesting angle to the story:
College basketball’s corrupt culture is going up against perhaps the most prestigious U.S. Attorney’s office in the country, the Southern District of New York. And this could end up as mismatched as a No. 1 vs. No. 16 seed in the NCAA tournament. Alums of that office include former New York mayor Rudy Giuliani, former FBI director James Comey and recent Donald Trump nemesis, Preet Bharara. Former FBI director Louis Freeh also worked in that office, and he just got hired by USC to investigate what happened with assistant coach Tony Bland’s arrest. A New York Times story from 2009 called the office “A Stepping Stone for Law’s Best and Brightest.” One of the lead characters in the television show “Billions” is the U.S. Attorney of the Southern District of New York.
The article points out that there could be some especially go-getting attorney in that office who wants this scandal to be as wide as it can in order to generate publicity. A rejoinder to anyone claiming that the Feds won't push this case hard because there are bigger fish to fry.
The article - at least the part that you quoted - makes no such point.
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Also interesting that apparently Quinerly was paid to commit to Arizona. Things do not look good in the desert.
Time to increase our face time with the Ginger Ninja. As one practiced scumbag famously said, “never let a serious crisis go to waste.”
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Here's an honest question that I'm not sure about. Where does the responsibility for enforcing the rules to the point of prevention of systemic and persistent commission of federal crimes lie? I don't know if that is explicitly within the NCAA enforcement mandate, but doesn't the responsibility to prevent federal crimes from occurring through activities falling within the governance of an organization have to be implicit?
For example, the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act exists to prevent any person or business in the US from even attempting to offer illicit payments to "foreign officials" to secure business outside the US. Companies subject to the FCPA typically develop internal policies to enforce compliance, and strict reporting requirements for everyone in the business are established to facilitate self regulation.
The consequences for violating the FCPA are ENORMOUS, and ignorance of the activity within an organization for any reason (specifically lack of enforcement resources) is not an acceptable defense.
Wouldn't this be a similar situation?
What's similar about a situation where things had gotten so bad that Congress needed to pass a law specifically to address with - as you noted - ENORMOUS consequences for those who violate it and, on the other hand, a situation where no such law has been passed and prosecutors have to use novel theories of federal fraud in order to bring any charges?
Again, the NCAA is a membership organization and any responsibilites for enforcement that it has are only those that it establishes for itself.
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Here's an honest question that I'm not sure about. Where does the responsibility for enforcing the rules to the point of prevention of systemic and persistent commission of federal crimes lie?
For example, the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act exists to prevent any person or business in the US from even attempting to offer illicit payments to "foreign officials" to secure business outside the US. Companies subject to the FCPA typically develop internal policies to enforce compliance, and strict reporting requirements for everyone in the business are established to facilitate self regulation.
The consequences for violating the FCPA are ENORMOUS, and ignorance of the activity within an organization for any reason (specifically lack of enforcement resources) is not an acceptable defense.
Wouldn't this be a similar situation?
Well first, this isn't the FCPA.
Second, since most of the members are not committing these types of crimes, it is hard for me to blame the NCAA for this.
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Pitino has not been charged with anything.
I realize that, but the birds haven't started signing yet. He is coach-2, I've read a bit of the FBI report. From what I see, phone records show he called Gatto 3 times from the day of the asst coach talked about Ricks dick at Adidas til Bowen committed. That was like 3-4 days. It looks really bad for him, I'm betting he'll fall far and hard. I think he winds up with some jail time.
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My fault, I'm sure, but I totaly missed the post where you enumerated and proved these "inequities".
1. Stating one's own opinion as fact, and
2. assuming guilt of a party (NCAA) without a scintilla of evidence -
two components of any tin hat theory.
Read my response again. I think what you're missing is that I did not theorize anything and have not judged NCAA guilty of any wrongdoing. If NCAA enforcement has been inequitable or inconsistent I suggest that it may be relevant that NCAA committees involved in investigation and enforcement include representatives of member institutions. Does this not suggest inherent conflicts of interests where certain members can approach investigations differently or inflict varying degrees of punishment depending potential alliances or rivalry? Could committee members with existing or past member affiliations be somehow entangled in the ongoing and expanding FBI probe?
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Well first, this isn't the FCPA.
Second, since most of the members are not committing these types of crimes, it is hard for me to blame the NCAA for this.
I'm fully aware that this isn't FCPA, and am also not assigning blame to the NCAA for this.
I'm honestly simply wondering if there is any sort of requirement for the NCAA to report any instances of potential commission of crimes that they become aware of that occur within their governed activities.
The FCPA was cited an example of a regulation which sets reporting requirements for potential commission of crimes in an unrelated industry.
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http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20859328/why-coach-why-not-sign-the-next-head-basketball-coach-louisville-cardinals
Seems like Goodman interviewed Buzz exclusively for those "what coaches are saying" quotes.
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http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20859328/why-coach-why-not-sign-the-next-head-basketball-coach-louisville-cardinals
Seems like Goodman interviewed Buzz exclusively for those "what coaches are saying" quotes.
Except for the quote about "If you're a clean guy, why would you want to follow a cheater at a place with a passionate fan base? If you aren't cheating, you won't win as much."
That was probably Wojo's response.
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I can't believe that no one has stated the obvious, so let me. This entire situation was orchestrated by the Power 5 Illuminati as a way of discrediting the NCAA. That way the P5 can really run football the way they want so as to maximize$. Please don't come back at me with logic based arguments why this is ridiculous. This is a great diversion until the season starts, that is until MU is implicated in some way. Until then this shyte storm is immensely entertaining. Darn Rothschilds.......
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Questioning the NCAA's competence and accusing members of its enforcement arm of criminal activity are worlds apart.
The NCAA is a voluntary organization without the investigative tools that law enforcement has at its disposal. While they may hold leverage over the employees and student athletes of its members it has none over AAU ball coaches, street agents, professional players, agents who represent them.
I can't prove the negative that no NCAA enforcement staff engaged in criminal activity, but I can and do choose to not go there until some report somewhere from any credible source makes that accusation.
One of those arrested previously served with the NCAA as assistant director of enforcement for basketball development.
Hard to think he is crooked now but was a straight arrow when working for NCAA enforcement.
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I expect to see Hennesy Auriental eventually implicated.... the same Auriental who was thrown out of an MU practice with Tim Maymon. The same Auriental who is currently the legal guardian for the number one ranked recruit for 2019, a Nigerian big man.
https://www.google.com/amp/www.mysanantonio.com/sports/high_school/high_school_basketball/amp/St-Anthony-coach-Hennssy-Auriantal-dismissed-11342319.php
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One of those arrested previously served with the NCAA as assistant director of enforcement for basketball development.
Hard to think he is crooked now but was a straight arrow when working for NCAA enforcement.
Why, are crooked people born that way? Aren't there first time offenders? You have to start somewhere, maybe he started at NCAA or maybe the lure and pressure of performing at the school with the money on the line and the ability to keep his job led him to decisions he would not have made in previous jobs.
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I expect to see Hennesy Auriental eventually implicated.... the same Auriental who was thrown out of an MU practice with Tim Maymon. The same Auriental who is currently the legal guardian for the number one ranked recruit for 2019, a Nigerian big man.
https://www.google.com/amp/www.mysanantonio.com/sports/high_school/high_school_basketball/amp/St-Anthony-coach-Hennssy-Auriantal-dismissed-11342319.php
(http://i63.tinypic.com/5vxkc8.jpg)
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Why, are crooked people born that way? Aren't there first time offenders? You have to start somewhere, maybe he started at NCAA or maybe the lure and pressure of performing at the school with the money on the line and the ability to keep his job led him to decisions he would not have made in previous jobs.
People are not born crooked, but some are born with risky personalities. A person that is willing to take risks is more likely to get in trouble than a person who is risk adverse. I am not sure you can be a successful coach, if you do not have a risky personality.
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People are not born crooked, but some are born with risky personalities. A person that is willing to take risks is more likely to get in trouble than a person who is risk adverse. I am not sure you can be a successful coach, if you do not have a risky personality.
For some people this is most certainly true. It appeared the other person was implying that this assistant coach had to have also been involved in nefarious activities in his previous employment, which he nor anyone here as any inkling if that is true. There are people in this world that are as by the book as possible, but they end up getting a shot at something life changing or act out of fear that do stupid things. Sometimes, only once in their life, but they get caught.
Think about it on a relationship side where someone is married for 25 years and decides to have a one night stand, the only time in their life. It happens. People make dumb choices.
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Think about it on a relationship side
where someone is married for 25 years and decides to have a one night stand, the only time in their life. It happens. People make dumb choices.
Asking for a friend?
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Asking for a friend?
I'll take "oddly specific hypotheticals for $1000 Alex"
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Asking for a friend?
Ha. No, didn't experience this in my life that I know of (no affairs for me).
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Long-ish article about the man behind the FBI charges. Interesting read.
The Man Who Exposed College Basketball
Marty Blazer cooperated with federal authorities for almost three years, trying to save himself; how $5,000 changed hands at an Alabama restaurant
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-man-who-started-college-basketballs-armageddon-1506902378
Mr. Blazer’s central role is even more remarkable given that he didn’t have a relationship with any of the four assistant coaches charged in the investigation, which is continuing, and he has never spoken to Mr. Pitino, according to the person familiar with the investigation.
Steve Pence, a lawyer for Mr. Pitino, said he didn’t know if the coach ever met Mr. Blazer. “Coach Pitino is not the target of any criminal investigation,” said Mr. Pence.
The investment adviser cooperated for almost three years, including a close partnership with undercover agents from the Federal Bureau of Investigation, according to court documents and a person familiar with the matter. They said Mr. Blazer, 47 years old, helped dole out hundreds of thousands of dollars in bribes in dozens of recorded meetings in Las Vegas, Miami, New York and elsewhere.
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Long-ish article about the man behind the FBI charges. Interesting read.
The Man Who Exposed College Basketball
Marty Blazer cooperated with federal authorities for almost three years, trying to save himself; how $5,000 changed hands at an Alabama restaurant
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-man-who-started-college-basketballs-armageddon-1506902378
Mr. Blazer’s central role is even more remarkable given that he didn’t have a relationship with any of the four assistant coaches charged in the investigation, which is continuing, and he has never spoken to Mr. Pitino, according to the person familiar with the investigation.
Steve Pence, a lawyer for Mr. Pitino, said he didn’t know if the coach ever met Mr. Blazer. “Coach Pitino is not the target of any criminal investigation,” said Mr. Pence.
The investment adviser cooperated for almost three years, including a close partnership with undercover agents from the Federal Bureau of Investigation, according to court documents and a person familiar with the matter. They said Mr. Blazer, 47 years old, helped dole out hundreds of thousands of dollars in bribes in dozens of recorded meetings in Las Vegas, Miami, New York and elsewhere.
Weird, Chuck Blazer was the dude who informed on FIFA in their corruption boondoggle. I think the moral of the story, is don't trust anyone with the last name Blazer....or even with the first name Chuck
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One of those arrested previously served with the NCAA as assistant director of enforcement for basketball development.
Hard to think he is crooked now but was a straight arrow when working for NCAA enforcement.
Why?
When working for the NCAA his job was to enforce restrictions. When working at Alabama his job was to get around them.
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Why?
When working for the NCAA his job was to enforce restrictions. When working at Alabama his job was to get around them.
And he would hardly be the first (or, likely, the last) to spend part of a career enforcing rules and regulations and then spend the next part avoiding them. It's actually extremely common.
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And he would hardly be the first (or, likely, the last) to spend part of a career enforcing rules and regulations and then spend the next part avoiding them. It's actually extremely common.
Lawsky, Benjamin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Lawsky (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Lawsky)
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Interesting article from Jim Mcilvaine on vehicles athletes drive and how some should draw inquiries from the media.
https://www.sportsblog.com/jimmcilvaine/wheels-of-fortune/
I loved the comment about MU requiring them to fill out papers on what kind of car they drive and how they acquired it.
For some reason, I thought of comments I heard about the car David Rivers was driving when he got to ND. I also thought of the Duke player that got into issues purchasing almost $100k in jewelry in NY. Saw this article on the latter story, but not very insightful.
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9228586/former-duke-player-lance-thomas-cleared-wrongdoing-jewelry-purchase
Anyone have better articles to read on this or anything questioning how Rivers afforded the nice car he had while at ND?
P.S. Sorry if this was posted elsewhere.
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I remember walking by and seeing Walter Downing wash his (very nice) car and thinking that I hoped that DePaul paid for it.
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How the N.C.A.A. Cheats Student Athletes
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/03/opinion/how-the-ncaa-cheats-student-athletes.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fopinion&action=click&contentCollection=opinion®ion=rank&module=package&version=highlights&contentPlacement=4&pgtype=sectionfront
Lest you think I exaggerate, look up the case of the two athletes at the University of Iowa who started a T-shirt screening business and were threatened with ineligibility by the N.C.A.A. because their website mentioned that they met because they were both — brace yourself — swimmers. Or the more recent case of a cross-country runner at Texas A&M who was threatened with ineligibility for posting a YouTube video about a water bottle company he started.
The most repugnant aspect of this N.C.A.A. rule is that it runs directly counter to the optimal American college education. We want students to have multiple interests, multiple facets to their personal and academic lives, and to explore openly how those various identities play out. We want a student athlete to think — and talk — about what it means to be an athlete and an author, or an athlete and an entrepreneur, or an athlete and an artist. But a student who designs and sells greeting cards and mentions on her Facebook page that she is a softball player risks losing her athletic eligibility. That is shameful. Bylaw 12.5.1.3 has got to go.
Given all of the stereotypes about student athletes as prizing sports over academics, one would think that the N.C.A.A. would be enthusiastic about opportunities to shatter those. But given the choice between doing so and inadvertently allowing an athlete to profit from even the most tangential connection to his or her own athletic efforts, the N.C.A.A. has decided to force students to disguise who they are.
For those few students who star in Division I, it is an invitation to enter into a sad but unsurprising underground economy. For Division III athletes, the hypocrisy is a dispiriting act of silencing. For anyone who cares about fairness, it is a disgrace.
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And he would hardly be the first (or, likely, the last) to spend part of a career enforcing rules and regulations and then spend the next part avoiding them. It's actually extremely common.
Many of the best criminal defense attorneys I know started their careers as prosecutors.
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Sorry if this has been discussed here. I didn't follow from page 1 through now so I have missed some stuff. But is this going to change the landscape of AAU basketball? Are we going to see less brand-sponsored leagues/tournaments/teams? Fewer kids living in Texas playing with a Washington DC AAU team? Etc.?
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Sorry if this has been discussed here. I didn't follow from page 1 through now so I have missed some stuff. But is this going to change the landscape of AAU basketball? Are we going to see less brand-sponsored leagues/tournaments/teams? Fewer kids living in Texas playing with a Washington DC AAU team? Etc.?
Possibly... what I think we're going to see is more of a dispersion of upper 4- and 5-star talent to the non-blue bloods and mid-majors. The UNC's, Duke's, UK's, etc. are still all going to get theirs year after year, but guys like Kevon Looney - now that checks aren't being cut - might opt to stay closer to home or go to a mid-major where they can be the star who commands the highest pedestal.
I think that for all that is different in college sports, there's one constant... kids want to play in front of their parents, and parents want to watch their kids perform on a national stage. When you consider how much money the families spend to fly cross-country once or twice a week during the season, it makes a hell of a lot more sense how many of these families can afford to do so when the shoe companies are bankrolling a portion of it. If that money dries up, I think there's going to be a lot more internal pressure for these kids to play closer to home... so you might not see as many kids from the Midwest or East Coast going to UCLA, as well as you might not see as many from Orange County going to Louisville.
Frankly, I think that's the biggest change that will happen. AAU will see its paradigms shift a little, but as far as the whole thing blowing up and starting a new world order... that's a pretty tall order.
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One week out, I'm amazed that we haven't seen more press on the Sean Millers, Bruce Pearls, Etc. I mean, slick Rick is getting killed in the press, has already been fired and Zona and the rest are out of the lions eye. I don't get it. How are these guys keeping jobs. Why haven't their recruits decommitted? Why aren't they getting bad press. Their response " I'm Shocked" has been the same as Ricks. I'm calling BS on all of them. I'm confused??
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One week out, I'm amazed that we haven't seen more press on the Sean Millers, Bruce Pearls, Etc. I mean, slick Rick is getting killed in the press, has already been fired and Zona and the rest are out of the lions eye. I don't get it. How are these guys keeping jobs. Why haven't their recruits decommitted? Why aren't they getting bad press. Their response " I'm Shocked" has been the same as Ricks. I'm calling BS on all of them. I'm confused??
The thing that killed Pitino is that this was the second time he played the "I'm shocked" card. Often, you can only play that one once.
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The thing that killed Pitino is that this was the second time he played the "I'm shocked" card. Often, you can only play that one once.
Yes the rest of these institutions likely want to keep their coaches...
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Pitino's lawyer sounds like they will sue Louisville for breach of contract for the remaining $46 million on his contract. The university's best interests would then seem to paint Pitino as scum and disclose whatever details support that, could get interesting but my guess is a settlement to keep as much quiet as possible.
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Pitino's lawyer sounds like they will sue Louisville for breach of contract for the remaining $46 million on his contract. The university's best interests would then seem to paint Pitino as scum and disclose whatever details support that, could get interesting but my guess is a settlement to keep as much quiet as possible.
As much as it pains me to say it, based on the facts that I have seen, I think that Pitino may have a reasonable case for breach of contract. Not a slam dunk, by any means, but good enough to make things interesting -- and likely make Louisville flinch. It's likely that lawsuits and counter-suits will fly, but ultimately they'll settle.
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One week out, I'm amazed that we haven't seen more press on the Sean Millers, Bruce Pearls, Etc. I mean, slick Rick is getting killed in the press, has already been fired and Zona and the rest are out of the lions eye. I don't get it. How are these guys keeping jobs. Why haven't their recruits decommitted? Why aren't they getting bad press. Their response " I'm Shocked" has been the same as Ricks. I'm calling BS on all of them. I'm confused??
Auburn and Oklahoma State had a player decommit. A few recruits cancelled visits to Arizona and Miami I believe. A few other recruits updated their lists and removed the named schools. There has been some immediate fallout. But this is long from over. More shoes (no pun intended) are going to drop.
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Slick Rick was set up to pocket Adidas $$? ....the UL situation sounds more and more like a criminal enterprise.
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20927320/report-says-rick-pitino-got-98-percent-cash-louisville-current-adidas-deal
https://deadspin.com/rick-pitino-and-tom-jurich-made-ungodly-amounts-of-mone-1819196199
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That Jurich / Pitino story is ridiculous. I've read a lot about how great an AD that guy is, but if he is so good and worth so much money, how come his program can't make money without University support?
But this is a chronic problem at Louisville, who seems to feel it's appropriate to overpay for everyone. Their President, for instance, was making 2 1/2 times the average of all other ACC presidents.
http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/education/2015/07/10/ramseys-pay-dwarfs-others-acc/29974859/
Terrible lack of oversight by the University's governing board. *That* is ultimately where the problem lies.
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Slick Rick was set up to pocket Adidas $$? ....the UL situation sounds more and more like a criminal enterprise.
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20927320/report-says-rick-pitino-got-98-percent-cash-louisville-current-adidas-deal
https://deadspin.com/rick-pitino-and-tom-jurich-made-ungodly-amounts-of-mone-1819196199
Give Rick a break! Do you know how hard it was to make ends meet on the crappy salary Louisville was paying him?
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Give Rick a break! Do you know how hard it was to make ends meet on the crappy salary Louisville was paying him?
Sounds like Drose when he went to the Knicks for more money because he needed to "provide for his family". Must be a tough life
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Hearing more indictments are coming in college hoops. Expected to happen within the next two weeks, I'm told.
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Reading some locally that UConn is pissed because because Louisville got into the ACC based on fraud.
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Reading some locally that UConn is pissed because because Louisville got into the ACC based on fraud.
That's not really accurate though. Louisville got in because their athletic program as a whole, especially their football team, is better than UConn's.
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Reading some locally that UConn is pissed because because Louisville got into the ACC based on fraud.
That's not really accurate though. Louisville got in because their athletic program as a whole, especially their football team, is better than UConn's.
Also ,at the time that choice was being made, Louisville was shrewd enough to get their US senators to applied pressure on the ACC to favor Louisville.
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Reading some locally that UConn is pissed because because Louisville got into the ACC based on fraud.
I'm not particularly opinionated about UConn, but I can imagine that there would be a lot of people who might respond to such whining with a comment like, "Mr. Kettle, I'd like to introduce you to Mr. Pot."
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I'm not particularly opinionated about UConn, but I can imagine that there would be a lot of people who might respond to such whining with a comment like, "Mr. Kettle, I'd like to introduce you to Mr. Pot."
Nailed it.
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Also ,at the time that choice was being made, Louisville was shrewd enough to get their US senators to applied pressure on the ACC to favor Louisville.
I think the underlying issue is that UConn fans have an inflated sense of how their program is perceived.
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Two Louisville assistants suspended ...
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20935925/louisville-cardinals-place-assistant-coaches-kenny-johnson-jordan-fair-paid-leave
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Two Louisville assistants suspended ...
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20935925/louisville-cardinals-place-assistant-coaches-kenny-johnson-jordan-fair-paid-leave
Should have hired Crean
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One week out, I'm amazed that we haven't seen more press on the Sean Millers, Bruce Pearls, Etc. I mean, slick Rick is getting killed in the press, has already been fired and Zona and the rest are out of the lions eye. I don't get it. How are these guys keeping jobs. Why haven't their recruits decommitted? Why aren't they getting bad press. Their response " I'm Shocked" has been the same as Ricks. I'm calling BS on all of them. I'm confused??
You're confused by expecting that big changes would happen in one week. The first round of arrests needs to be worked for a while before the plea deals that net more actors get negotiated. Assuming, of course, that buying recruits via shoe companies is as prevalent as many suppose. Does Calipari need to buy players? He's got that awesome dorm and a great history of getting his guys into the NBA after one year. Isn't that more important then 100k up front? Many schools have boosters that are experienced and quite good at funneling lower but still significant amounts of cash to recruits particularly in football. Those type of payments are pretty much impossible to catch.
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One week out, I'm amazed that we haven't seen more press on the Sean Millers, Bruce Pearls, Etc. I mean, slick Rick is getting killed in the press, has already been fired and Zona and the rest are out of the lions eye. I don't get it. How are these guys keeping jobs. Why haven't their recruits decommitted? Why aren't they getting bad press. Their response " I'm Shocked" has been the same as Ricks. I'm calling BS on all of them. I'm confused??
Not to be picky but Pitino has not been fired, at least not yet. He is not indefinite suspension and I believe he is still being paid.
So their is a chance Rick does what Rick does best ... slimes through and remains ‘villes head coach (or should I say crime boss).
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Not to be picky but Pitino has not been fired, at least not yet. He is not indefinite suspension and I believe he is still being paid.
So their is a chance Rick does what Rick does best ... slimes through and remains ‘villes head coach (or should I say crime boss).
He is on unpaid administrative leave. Under his contract they couldn't fire him immediately. They had to have a vote to fire him, which they did. It was unanimous. He will never coach another day at Louisville.
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He's gone, was sent a letter of termination yesterday..
https://www.aseaofblue.com/2017/10/6/16439002/rick-pitino-louisville-president-greg-postel-letter-termination
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He's gone, was sent a letter of termination yesterday..
https://www.aseaofblue.com/2017/10/6/16439002/rick-pitino-louisville-president-greg-postel-letter-termination
Did not see that, thanks.
What are the chances he gets another head coaching job? I think its above 0% but less than 50% (so I'm saying there is a chance!)
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Did not see that, thanks.
What are the chances he gets another head coaching job? I think its above 0% but less than 50% (so I'm saying there is a chance!)
In Division 1 college? I think he's done. Maybe he could become an NBA assistant and eventually a head coach again, but I doubt it.
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That Jurich / Pitino story is ridiculous. I've read a lot about how great an AD that guy is, but if he is so good and worth so much money, how come his program can't make money without University support?
But this is a chronic problem at Louisville, who seems to feel it's appropriate to overpay for everyone. Their President, for instance, was making 2 1/2 times the average of all other ACC presidents.
http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/education/2015/07/10/ramseys-pay-dwarfs-others-acc/29974859/
Terrible lack of oversight by the University's governing board. *That* is ultimately where the problem lies.
The argument Louisville has made is they aren't really an ACC school academically (true) and even athletically (semi-true) and required higher pay to lure the type of people to the campus to get them to an ACC level. They've made this argument prior to joining the ACC, but it isn't wholly without some merit. Louisville was not a well regarded academic institution a 10 to 15 years ago. They poured considerable resources into athletics and high level positions in an attempt over the long haul to close that gap by making a big splash, recruit nationally, shore up academics and all boats would rise as a result. That required over payment, at least that has been their argument internally.
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The argument Louisville has made is they aren't really an ACC school academically (true) and even athletically (semi-true) and required higher pay to lure the type of people to the campus to get them to an ACC level. They've made this argument prior to joining the ACC, but it isn't wholly without some merit. Louisville was not a well regarded academic institution a 10 to 15 years ago. They poured considerable resources into athletics and high level positions in an attempt over the long haul to close that gap by making a big splash, recruit nationally, shore up academics and all boats would rise as a result. That required over payment, at least that has been their argument internally.
Did they make similar efforts to improve academics? No! Even though they have lower quality faculty and faculty salaries, they froze faculty raise pools to a maximum of 2%.
The "required over payment" is BS. It was simply a way to try to justify pouring tons of cash into athletics and to make the power brokers more powerful. It had nothing to do with performance or academics, indeed it hurt academics.
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Did not see that, thanks.
What are the chances he gets another head coaching job? I think its above 0% but less than 50% (so I'm saying there is a chance!)
0%
Assuming he gets hit with NCAA violations, the NCAA show-cause penalty would essentially make him unhireable. Even if he didn't have that problem, I doubt he'd need the money bad enough to start over - particularly at his age - at the level of school that would be desparate enough to hire him.
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Two Louisville assistants suspended ...
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20935925/louisville-cardinals-place-assistant-coaches-kenny-johnson-jordan-fair-paid-leave
Kenny Johnson was Crean's direct report at I4... hmmmm
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Did they make similar efforts to improve academics? No! Even though they have lower quality faculty and faculty salaries, they froze faculty raise pools to a maximum of 2%.
The "required over payment" is BS. It was simply a way to try to justify pouring tons of cash into athletics and to make the power brokers more powerful. It had nothing to do with performance or academics, indeed it hurt academics.
We are in agreement that what they say and what they did are two different things. They have tried to use athletics to drive the school's brand. It has worked from a nationally recognized school perspective. Football has taken an enormous step up in the last 15 years. Their goal was to have that drive academic progress, too. That hasn't happened, at least not yet. In terms of the freeze, how long has that been in effect? My company also has 2% max freezes that have been going on for at least the last 5 years.
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Kenny Johnson was Crean's direct report at I4... hmmmm
Buzz Williams was Crean's direct report at MU. Pattern?
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We are in agreement that what they say and what they did are two different things. They have tried to use athletics to drive the school's brand. It has worked from a nationally recognized school perspective. Football has taken an enormous step up in the last 15 years. Their goal was to have that drive academic progress, too. That hasn't happened, at least not yet. In terms of the freeze, how long has that been in effect? My company also has 2% max freezes that have been going on for at least the last 5 years.
It has also been going on for 5-years. I wouldn't have a problem with it if it also applied to administrators/coaches/athletic staff.
But it doesn't, all those groups are exempt from the salary freezes and have been seeing in some cases double digit gains.
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It has also been going on for 5-years. I wouldn't have a problem with it if it also applied to administrators/coaches/athletic staff.
But it doesn't, all those groups are exempt from the salary freezes and have been seeing in some cases double digit gains.
How much of their gains are from outside $ sources, like a foundation, boosters, etc? Vs the standard university salary payment?
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Did they make similar efforts to improve academics? No! Even though they have lower quality faculty and faculty salaries, they froze faculty raise pools to a maximum of 2%.
The "required over payment" is BS. It was simply a way to try to justify pouring tons of cash into athletics and to make the power brokers more powerful. It had nothing to do with performance or academics, indeed it hurt academics.
Shocker. Same thing happens daily at large corporations, hospitals, etc. More money to the top. Promises of "trickle down" effect. End result? The rich get richer and the bottom 90% suffer
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Shocker. Same thing happens daily at large corporations, hospitals, etc. More money to the top. Promises of "trickle down" effect. End result? The rich get richer and the bottom 90% suffer
I hate it that the QB gets paid way more than the other guys. So unfair. He couldn't do his job without the linemen doing theirs.
I hate it that top pitchers make more than anyone else, if it wasn't for the guys scoring runs for him. So unfair.
Was so hoping this thread could stay away from the stuff, but alas.
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I hate it that the QB gets paid way more than the other guys. So unfair. He couldn't do his job without the linemen doing theirs.
I hate it that top pitchers make more than anyone else, if it wasn't for the guys scoring runs for him. So unfair.
Was so hoping this thread could stay away from the stuff, but alas.
Weren’t you also hoping to stay away from MUScoop about a year ago with some super weird apology and story about the love of your life, which wasn’t your wife?
Or was that hoopaloop?
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I hate it that the QB gets paid way more than the other guys. So unfair. He couldn't do his job without the linemen doing theirs.
I hate it that top pitchers make more than anyone else, if it wasn't for the guys scoring runs for him. So unfair.
Was so hoping this thread could stay away from the stuff, but alas.
Is the QB also negotiating his linemen's contracts? Dumb analogy. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb.
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I hate it that the QB gets paid way more than the other guys. So unfair. He couldn't do his job without the linemen doing theirs.
I hate it that top pitchers make more than anyone else, if it wasn't for the guys scoring runs for him. So unfair.
Was so hoping this thread could stay away from the stuff, but alas.
People in power, at the top of their organizations, demanding their compensation be unequivocally high for pure individual short term gain and sell it as a benefit to everyone with no evidence that it has or will actually work.
Does that sound the same as a QB or pitcher negotiating their contract?
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http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-college-basketball-scandal-20171010-story.html
Guy quoted in this article estimates that this scandal will lead to 40-50 head and assistant coaching vacancies in Division 1 basketball. Personally, I'll believe that when I see it....I can't even imagine the turmoil that could cause. An unprecedented coaching carousel.
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Definite hearsay, but a guy I work with knows several D1 coaches and agents of coaches, and is very close with 1 major D1 coach in particular that told him upwards of 150 coaches (head and assistants) will go down, including many prominent names.
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Definite hearsay, but a guy I work with knows several D1 coaches and agents of coaches, and is very close with 1 major D1 coach in particular that told him upwards of 150 coaches (head and assistants) will go down, including many prominent names.
If that were the case it’d be like the seen in dark knight when they arrest the entire mob and are charging them all at once
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If those reports turn out to be even close to accurate, we will see the greatest amount of assistant coaches getting their 1st shot at head coaching positions as well as offers being thrown to former head coaches and possibly even NBA coaches/assistants.
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Buzz to everywhere.
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Definite hearsay, but a guy I work with knows several D1 coaches and agents of coaches, and is very close with 1 major D1 coach in particular that told him upwards of 150 coaches (head and assistants) will go down, including many prominent names.
If that is true, then the whole D-1 College bball landscape would have huge problems.
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Buzz to everywhere.
Would love to see Coach Crean get a top drawer job.
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Would love to see Coach Crean get a top drawer job.
Presuming Crean doesn't get caught up in the scandal, I think he lands a solid job anyway. It won't take 150 coaches losing their jobs for him to get one. Kevin O'Neill on the other hand...
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This is definitely a conspiracy theory but is it possible the NBA is the ones that pulled for this investigation? Maybe leaked info or something? Many of these kids would be going to the Gleague right away so the minor league system actually becomes a moneymaker for them.
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Just to be clear, the ~150 number included assistants. It'd guess head coaches are in the 30-40 range. But yes, still will have an enormous impact if even close to true.
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The real underlying issue is that Stern screwed this all up when he made high school players go through a year of college before entering the NBA draft.
I can almost guarantee you that the one and done rule will cease to exist within the next three years.
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The real underlying issue is that Stern screwed this all up when he made high school players go through a year of college before entering the NBA draft.
I can almost guarantee you that the one and done rule will cease to exist within the next three years.
I can guarantee you it will still be around. It is part of the CBA with the union which is in force until 2022. And "Stern" didn't put this rule in place. It was collectively bargained. The owners wanted it and the players let them have it.
Regardless, it's not the NBA's fault that these guys broke the law.
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Maybe the best way to solve the problem is to put an age limit on the NBA. Must be 20 or 21 to be drafted means kids need to stay in college for at least 2 years. May result in some kids going oversees, but I think it ultimately increases the CBB product as it would eliminate the 1 and done.
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There's an SI article (that I haven't read yet) that says "The NCAA is broken, but you knew that already. Here's how to fix."
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Maybe the best way to solve the problem is to put an age limit on the NBA. Must be 20 or 21 to be drafted means kids need to stay in college for at least 2 years. May result in some kids going oversees, but I think it ultimately increases the CBB product as it would eliminate the 1 and done.
Or eliminate it.
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Or eliminate it.
Wouldn't putting an age limit on NBA draft eliminate it?
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Wouldn't putting an age limit on NBA draft eliminate it?
Eliminate the current age limit, is what I meant.
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I don't think putting an age requirement on the draft would change anything because...well, there already is one.
I also don't think eliminating the 1 year after your high school class graduates requirement would stop college recruits from getting paid by shoe brands and/or schools.
There will always be top available talent. If you take away the Balls and Fultzs of the world from college basketball for a season they will be replaced by Omri Spellmans or Rawle Alkeninses of the world that schools/brands will then pay to pick a certain school.
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Eliminate the current age limit, is what I meant.
Why should the NBA fix the NCAAs problems?
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Why should the NBA fix the NCAAs problems?
Why is an age limit even legal?
But because they want the best talent possible in their league presumably.
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Would love to see Coach Crean get a top drawer job.
At a mausoleum, hey?
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I don't think putting an age requirement on the draft would change anything because...well, there already is one.
I also don't think eliminating the 1 year after your high school class graduates requirement would stop college recruits from getting paid by shoe brands and/or schools.
There will always be top available talent. If you take away the Balls and Fultzs of the world from college basketball for a season they will be replaced by Omri Spellmans or Rawle Alkeninses of the world that schools/brands will then pay to pick a certain school.
Yah, only way to fix that is to come down hard on the guilty.
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Why is an age limit even legal?
But because they want the best talent possible in their league presumably.
The age limit is legal because it is part of the collective bargaining agreement between the league and the union.
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The age limit is legal because it is part of the collective bargaining agreement between the league and the union.
So I could collectively bargain to keep people out of my union based upon their age? Seems like a discriminatory practice.
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So I could collectively bargain to keep people out of my union based upon their age? Seems like a discriminatory practice.
The only age protected from discrimination is 40+.
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This is definitely a conspiracy theory but is it possible the NBA is the ones that pulled for this investigation? Maybe leaked info or something? Many of these kids would be going to the Gleague right away so the minor league system actually becomes a moneymaker for them.
Unlikely, the NBA is well aware that the problem with the Gleague isn't a talent issue, it is an interest issue. They are aware that the draw of NCAA is the association with the colleges, not the quality of the athletes or the game.
Getting the best players to the Gleague instead of the NCAA wouldn't change the attendance/interest level in either of the leagues.
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The real underlying issue is that Stern screwed this all up when he made high school players go through a year of college before entering the NBA draft.
I can almost guarantee you that the one and done rule will cease to exist within the next three years.
Write an article about it, foreign anti-USA bro
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Why is an age limit even legal?
But because they want the best talent possible in their league presumably.
Why is it legal for insurance companies to charge more to males as compared to females? Ooooooh? Never hear yappin about that.
Join the #Principled truth and the #Righteous shall be revealed.
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Grand jury subpoenas out to OSU, other schools.
https://sports.yahoo.com/feds-turn-heat-recruiting-scandal-oklahoma-state-subpoena-183650183.html
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Why is it legal for insurance companies to charge more to males as compared to females? Ooooooh? Never hear yappin about that.
Join the #Principled truth and the #Righteous shall be revealed.
What? Odd correlation. Because statistically dudes die sooner and behave more recklessly leading to higher costs for insurance companies. Duh. And I ain't yapping about that because I was under the impression this was a basketball site. I save my insurance thoughts for allstatescoop.com
Oh, and I think you should age discriminate yourself from using hash tags.
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What? Odd correlation. Because statistically dudes die sooner and behave more recklessly leading to higher costs for insurance companies. Duh. And I ain't yapping about that because I was under the impression this was a basketball site. I save my insurance thoughts for allstatescoop.com
Oh, and I think you should age discriminate yourself from using hash tags.
Chuckled at your response. Anyway, to answer your question without being snarky it's important to know that 'protected class' is a quite restrictive list. Race, color, religion, age (40+), and sex, with some extended interpretations from that. This came up in the NFL discussion where an owner can absolutely fire a player for not anthem standing as an example. On the other side, you can't fire a woman for being pregnant or a guy because he's Irish. So in the original example, the young B-ball player is not protected.
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Lets talk about how Bill Self at Kansas will be the next domino
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Lets talk about how Bill Self at Kansas will be the next domino
I'd love to!
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https://twitter.com/ConnerMitchell0/status/918305118780645376
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https://twitter.com/ConnerMitchell0/status/918305118780645376
That's big.
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That's big.
I'm not sure. I mentioned it in the other thread but there's a line in the actual response from the FBI that says "This is a standard notification given to all of our requesters and should not be taken as an indication that excluded records do or do not exist." If I'm reading that correctly, it could mean that there are no records but the FBI will not confirm or deny their existence due to the ongoing investigation.
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I'm not sure. I mentioned it in the other thread but there's a line in the actual response from the FBI that says "This is a standard notification given to all of our requesters and should not be taken as an indication that excluded records do or do not exist." If I'm reading that correctly, it could mean that there are no records but the FBI will not confirm or deny their existence due to the ongoing investigation.
This is true.
It could mean something, it could mean nothing. The FBI as a matter of policy - one they enforce pretty strictly except in rare exceptions - will say nothing about an ongoing investigation, including whether there is an ongoing investigation.
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BTW, if the NCAA was really concerned about one-and-dones, they would restore the freshman ineligibility rule. But they haven't so I'm not sure they really are all that concerned.
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BTW, if the NCAA was really concerned about one-and-dones, they would restore the freshman ineligibility rule. But they haven't so I'm not sure they really are all that concerned.
So they would over-react and solve a problem with an unrelated solution that harm everyone but the one and dones. Yup good thought - sounds just like the NCAA.
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So they would over-react and solve a problem with an unrelated solution that harm everyone but the one and dones. Yup good thought - sounds just like the NCAA.
It is a related solution. It would push one and dones away from college ball. And it is debatable that it harms other players. Sitting out for a year can be beneficial.
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So...Pitino's opening salvo is to sue Adidas (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/21055578/former-louisville-cardinals-coach-rick-pitino-files-lawsuit-adidas) Interesting play. Apparently, Adidas was bribing players to attend Louisville without Rick's knowledge.
This leads me to two thoughts: 1) the usual suspects won't be circling their wagons this time -- it's every man for himself; and 2) suing Adidas signals that Rick knows that his career is over.
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ESPN has a brief interview with Rick Pitino where he denies knowing anything about a player being paid — and states that he passed a lie detector test administered by the FBI:
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/21064922/rick-pitino-stresses-no-knowledge-recruiting-scandal-cites-lie-detector-test (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/21064922/rick-pitino-stresses-no-knowledge-recruiting-scandal-cites-lie-detector-test)
1) Maybe it's just me, but Slick Rick looks incredibly dodgy. Asked a simple question ("Did you know anything about that?") he gives a shaky "no" — then freezes speechless for about a second before continuing. He's trying to put on the charm like usual and Bilas is having none of it.
2) Pitino says "one of the toughest things you have to do...is take a lie detector test." I'd beg to differ; one of the toughest things you have to do is make the right choices. Why is taking a lie detector test tough if you're not lying? Yes, some people get nervous during tests and there can be false positives. Not the case here. He's lying.
3) The use and validity of polygraphs altogether is highly questionable at best. The National Research Council has found no evidence of effectiveness.
4) If the FBI asks you to submit to a polygraph test, do they really tell you the results afterwards? I guess it's possible. But this strikes me as one of the most unlikely aspects of Pitino's story.
5) What was the purpose of this interview in the first place? Pitino had already released a statement denying any knowledge. Who is he trying to convince?
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He's suing Adidas and Louisville, he's trying to build support. He's trying to get as much money as he possibly can. His earning power as a coach is OVER. He needs cash to keep up the lavish lifestyle IMHO
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ESPN has a brief interview with Rick Pitino where he denies knowing anything about a player being paid — and states that he passed a lie detector test administered by the FBI:
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/21064922/rick-pitino-stresses-no-knowledge-recruiting-scandal-cites-lie-detector-test (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/21064922/rick-pitino-stresses-no-knowledge-recruiting-scandal-cites-lie-detector-test)
1) Maybe it's just me, but Slick Rick looks incredibly dodgy. Asked a simple question ("Did you know anything about that?") he gives a shaky "no" — then freezes speechless for about a second before continuing. He's trying to put on the charm like usual and Bilas is having none of it.
2) Pitino says "one of the toughest things you have to do...is take a lie detector test." I'd beg to differ; one of the toughest things you have to do is make the right choices. Why is taking a lie detector test tough if you're not lying? Yes, some people get nervous during tests and there can be false positives. Not the case here. He's lying.
3) The use and validity of polygraphs altogether is highly questionable at best. The National Research Council has found no evidence of effectiveness.
4) If the FBI asks you to submit to a polygraph test, do they really tell you the results afterwards? I guess it's possible. But this strikes me as one of the most unlikely aspects of Pitino's story.
5) What was the purpose of this interview in the first place? Pitino had already released a statement denying any knowledge. Who is he trying to convince?
First of all: that's a fascinating interview from a sociological perspective. In a single minute Pitino demonstrates nearly every textbook symbol that someone is lying - looking down and away, shifting the topic of conversation, and using animated hand gestures, to name a few. There's a reason why polygraphs are normally inadmissible in court!
Secondly: who the hell is this guy's attorney? Allowing him to go on TV and give such a weak performance the same day he files a lawsuit. I almost feel bad for the guy. Almost.
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Turns out I didn't have the story quite right. Pitino independently took a polygraph to help make his case that Louisville should reinstate him as head coach. The polygraph examiner, Carl Christiansen, was a private investigator working for Pitino's attorney, Steve Pence.
Amazingly, Christiansen said that in his opinion, Pitino's recorded responses were not deceptive. The university's board was "unmoved," fired him with cause and terminated his contract.
Pence repeats the assertion that Pitino had no knowledge. Didn't know a thing. Shocked as anyone to hear about it. Even if by some stretch of the imagination that somehow turned out to be true, it's an incredibly weak defense given his history. What kind of program are you running that repeatedly gets rocked by major scandals you know nothing about?
http://www.courier-journal.com/story/sports/college/louisville/2017/10/16/rick-pitino-took-lie-detector-test/767121001/ (http://www.courier-journal.com/story/sports/college/louisville/2017/10/16/rick-pitino-took-lie-detector-test/767121001/)
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ESPN has a brief interview with Rick Pitino where he denies knowing anything about a player being paid — and states that he passed a lie detector test administered by the FBI:
Why on Earth do they still use lie detectors? It's pure hokey pseudo science. They don't work and never have.
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Why on Earth do they still use lie detectors? It's pure hokey pseudo science. They don't work and never have.
They don't. It was Pitino's personal private investigator
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Did anyone watch the Bilas interview on SVP’s sportscenter and feel like they needed a shower? Jay defending rick the entire time and then turning on ADs and university presidents
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They don't. It was Pitino's personal private investigator
They do on Maury
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...Rick knows that his career is over.
I stand corrected. Apparently Geno thinks Rick has suffered enough (http://www.espn.com/womens-college-basketball/story/_/id/21260802/uconn-huskies-coach-geno-auriemma-says-hire-rick-pitino).
Amazing. But I guess there's really nothing in Rick's history that suggests he's not a good role model for young women.
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Just heard ESPN report that Bruce Pearl is refusing to cooperate with Auburn's internal investigation and that his job is in jeopardy.
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Just heard ESPN report that Bruce Pearl is refusing to cooperate with Auburn's internal investigation and that his job is in jeopardy.
Lifelong cheater getting caught cheating. What a shocker. Difference is this time he is probably going to jail.
GOOD.
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https://twitter.com/tom_winter/status/928378988011061254
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https://twitter.com/tom_winter/status/928378988011061254
"I was blacked out and didn't have any knowledge of what was happening to me or around me!"
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I haven't followed that closely. Could Slick Rick face criminal proceedings and jail time?
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I haven't followed that closely. Could Slick Rick face criminal proceedings and jail time?
Yes.
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Kansas Burger Boy, Billy Preston, signs with Euro pro team as NCAA investigation drags on about the source of his car. If you remember, the FBI also pulled Kansas records earlier. Since establishing car ownership and funding would seem to be straight forward over time, one has to wonder if the NCAA's feet dragging isn't related to Adidas and the FBI investigation (as has been rumored).
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/for-petes-sake/article195749664.html
Draft Express with a Tweet confirming Adidas link:
https://mobile.twitter.com/DraftExpress/status/954713583912439808
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Wonder how well Self is sleeping...
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Kansas Burger Boy, Billy Preston, signs with Euro pro team as NCAA investigation drags on about the source of his car. If you remember, the FBI also pulled Kansas records earlier. Since establishing car ownership and funding would seem to be straight forward over time, one has to wonder if the NCAA's feet dragging isn't related to Adidas and the FBI investigation (as has been rumored).
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/for-petes-sake/article195749664.html
Draft Express with a Tweet confirming Adidas link:
https://mobile.twitter.com/DraftExpress/status/954713583912439808
too bad, hell of a piano player too.
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Were we in on any kids who ended up at Kansas?
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too bad, hell of a piano player too.
Will it go 'round in circles?
Will it fly high like a bird up in the sky?
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I stand corrected. Apparently Geno thinks Rick has suffered enough (http://www.espn.com/womens-college-basketball/story/_/id/21260802/uconn-huskies-coach-geno-auriemma-says-hire-rick-pitino).
Amazing. But I guess there's really nothing in Rick's history that suggests he's not a good role model for young women.
Its an easy claim to make when you don't think you'll actually have to follow through. The average tenure on Geno's staff is 19 years, and his most recent hire was 9 years ago.
http://www.uconnhuskies.com/sports/w-baskbl/mtt/conn-w-baskbl-coaches.html (http://www.uconnhuskies.com/sports/w-baskbl/mtt/conn-w-baskbl-coaches.html)
If Pitino were a tailor, Geno would probably say he'd hire him to adjust the sleeves on his vest.
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Lifelong cheater getting caught cheating. What a shocker. Difference is this time he is probably going to jail.
GOOD.
And the ultimate irony is that Pearl was the Iowa assistant who recorded his phone call while recruiting Simeon's Deon Thomas, who talked of receiving a car and other illegal benefits from Illinois. Pearl eagerly ratted out U of I to the NCAA. Guilty or not, the implicated Illinois assistant, Jimmy Collins, from that day onward would never even look at Pearl in the handshake line.
Hope they throw the book at smug BP. Karma is a beeotch.
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too bad, hell of a piano player too.
The 5th Beatle.
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The feds drop charges against the AAU Adidas exec. Did he squeal or did they have nothing on him?
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The feds drop charges against the AAU Adidas exec. Did he squeal or did they have nothing on him?
Fingers crossed that he squealed on KU/Self and Grimes ends up here where he belongs
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Based off how the story goes when Big Daddy tells us in a year, would we even take him??
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The feds drop charges against the AAU Adidas exec. Did he squeal or did they have nothing on him?
If they drop charges he didn't squeal. They leave charges and do some sort of deal that at the end would be up to judge. There were problems with the agent and the investigation, Bilas tweeted the articles. That is probably why they dismissed charges. Agent was using investigation money to gamble, food and drinks.
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Agent was using investigation money to gamble, food and drinks.
Is that bad?
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Is that bad?
I'm not against, but don't think using fed money for that was wise ;D
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Agent was using investigation money to gamble, food and drinks.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/5a5dc083485199143fdd835887f484d5/tenor.gif?itemid=8619199)
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I'm not against, but don't think using fed money for that was wise ;D
Bold statement. Many appointed heads of the current administration do not agree with you - treasury, EPA, etc.
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Based off how the story goes when Big Daddy tells us in a year, would we even take him??
My suspicion is no. If Kansas ended up on the FBI radar and Grimes decommited, I suspect he would head to Texas.
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My suspicion is no. If Kansas ended up on the FBI radar and Grimes decommited, I suspect he would head to Texas.
I have heard that KU believes strongly they are clean in the fed investigation. I'll come clean though in that my source was the KU coaching staff, fwiw.
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Bold statement. Many appointed heads of the current administration do not agree with you - treasury, EPA, etc.
First class, hey?
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I have heard that KU believes strongly they are clean in the fed investigation. I'll come clean though in that my source was the KU coaching staff, fwiw.
I've no idea. It's entirely possible programs could have no idea the benefits in recruiting they received. But I do think if Grimes doesn't go to Kansas, he won't end up at Marquette.
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https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2018/02/14/college-basketball-recruiting-scandal-fbi-probe-violations-punishments
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https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2018/02/14/college-basketball-recruiting-scandal-fbi-probe-violations-punishments
But none of the programs implicated in the FBI probe—including Arizona, Louisville, USC, Oklahoma State, Auburn and Miami—have yet been punished by the NCAA as the FBI continues its investigation and while legal proceedings play out.
They should all just bow out of the NCAA tournament this year as self punishment. That'd be neat.
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.yahoo.com/amphtml/sports/sources-college-hoops-corruption-case-poised-take-hall-fame-coaches-top-programs-lottery-picks-224417174.html
Yahoo certainly isn't backing down from the basketball Armageddon angle.
There was a motion to dismiss one of the cases this morning. It was denied.
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Maybe we're a lock for the tournament after all
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Maybe we're a lock for the tournament after all
As many as 50 schools affected including half of the top 16.
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As many as 50 schools affected including half of the top 16.
Yeah. Doubt it has any impact on this year but if it did it sounds like the field would be drastically different.
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Very little doubt: Duke, Kansas, UNC, Arizona, Auburn (and throw Kentucky in there even though they're not in the top 16)
Would guess they were: Cinci, Oklahoma
Wouldn't be surprised: Xavier, Michigan State, Tennessee, Texas Tech, Clemson
Doubt it: Virginia, Ohio State, Nova, Purdue
Or, ranked most to least likely in my opinion:
1) Auburn
2) Arizona
3) Kansas
(Kentucky)
4) Duke
5) UNC
6) Cinci
7) Oklahoma
8) Clemson
9) Texas Tech
10) Tennessee
11) Xavier
12) Michigan State
13) Ohio State
14) Nova
15) UVA
16) Purdue
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“When this all comes out, Hall of Fame coaches should be scared, lottery picks won’t be eligible to play and almost half of the 16 teams the NCAA showed on its initial NCAA tournament show this weekend should worry about their appearance being vacated.”
That sounds like it’s coming this year.
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Hope they put out report all at once and don't piece meal the thing.
Hall of Fame Coaches? Off top of head:
Mike K.
John Calipari
Roy Williams
Tom Izzo
Jim Boeheim
Rick Pitino
Who am I missing in last few years?
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Stew Morrill, aina?
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“When this all comes out, Hall of Fame coaches should be scared, lottery picks won’t be eligible to play and almost half of the 16 teams the NCAA showed on its initial NCAA tournament show this weekend should worry about their appearance being vacated.”
That sounds like it’s coming this year.
Appearance being "vacated" implies that it will come out in the future and the past appearance won't show in the records. That's how I interpreted it, anyways.
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Feels like whatever info gets leaked will come out the Wednesday before the tournament starts.
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Interesting with people speculating about Duke yet we’re doing things the right way now that Buzz is gone.
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Personally, I think there's a chance we are implicated.
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Personally, I think there's a chance we are implicated.
Based on?
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Based on?
Reasons
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Reasons
Current or former?
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Personally, I think there's a chance we are implicated.
My understanding is that the investigation collected information after Buzz left. I would be very surprised if there was anything from Wojo that they would be interested in. However, every fanbase probably thinks that about their coach, even the ones who have already been implicated.
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Interesting with people speculating about Duke yet we’re doing things the right way now that Buzz is gone.
Interesting, indeed.
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Interesting, indeed.
Interesting with people speculating about Duke yet we’re doing things the right way now that Buzz is gone.
Wait, you guys really think Wojo is cheating? And/or Duke isn’t?
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Wait, you guys really think Wojo is cheating? And/or Duke isn’t?
I hope like hell Duke ISN'T cheating. It's the only other college program Wojo has been a part of - if they're clean I'm pretty sure he is too. If not - ???
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I hope like hell Duke ISN'T cheating. It's the only other college program Wojo has been a part of - if they're clean I'm pretty sure he is too. If not - ???
Capel is viewed as far and away the favorite of any of the Duke affiliated coaches to take over for Coach K whenever he steps down because he’s the one who got the program to embrace the one and done culture. Wojo was on his way out just as this was starting at Duke.
The FBI isn’t looking at what was happening 5 years ago. They weren’t wiring middlemen up when Wojo was on the road with K to Kyrie Irving’s house. This is far more recent. If Wojo gets in trouble it’ll be for something he did at MU. And if he gets in trouble for something he did at MU, he’s cheating wrong.
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There’s various degrees of clean in every program. I don’t think it’s an either/ or.
For instance I think Duke got a little less clean when Jeff Capel rejoined.
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I’m a believer that the very best don’t cheat because they don’t have to. They can recruit on merit.
I don’t believe Saban cheats too much (his boosters however) especially relative to his peers.
I bet Coach Cal is A LOT cleaner now. He’s established a brand at UK and is selling a 6 month NBA training camp. The kids who want money will opt for LSU.
My pause with Coach K is when he lands the top 3 players and they all play he same position. Something seems odd there.
I hope Wojo is clean. I mean it’s year 4 and we’re 5-8 in conf, if we’re cheating SHEEEEESCH.
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There’s various degrees of clean in every program. I don’t think it’s an either/ or.
For instance I think Duke got a little less clean when Jeff Capel rejoined.
Totally agree. Capel is the wildcard at Duke. It’s a new day there with him.
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Cardinal Stritch has a chance, hey?
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I’m a believer that the very best don’t cheat because they don’t have to. They can recruit on merit.
I think it's hard to say that Patino isn't one of the best ever, and it's pretty clear his program was far from clean. I have a feeling we're going to be pretty surprised at some of the names that come out of this when it's all said and done.
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I think it's hard to say that Patino isn't one of the best ever, and it's pretty clear his program was far from clean. I have a feeling we're going to be pretty surprised at some of the names that come out of this when it's all said and done.
Yep. The patina of Pitino lost its luster long ago.
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As many as 50 schools affected including half of the top 16.
Good thing we're not in the top 16!
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I’m a believer that the very best don’t cheat because they don’t have to. They can recruit on merit.
Last year's national champion was North Carolina.
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There is a theory out there (if you want to believe the blue and gold glass vantage point) that one of the reasons Wojo left when he did was because of the one and done/less than up and up direction Duke was heading. Remember Wojo was asked multiple times to leave but didn't until the MU job came open which seemingly timed with some of the seeming bag dropping going on at Duke.
Having said that, I'd be shocked if there is more than circumstantial evidence of cheating at MU (direct proof like payments, etc) and I'd be shocked if there is zero evidence of MU cheating (there is no MU connection to the investigation at all).
My sense of it based on some conversations is that there is no concern of being "nailed" by the investigation but that some stuff could come out that could be construed as shady (think something like a wiretap comes out with a staffer talking to a recruit that could be interpreted as less than on the up and up - note this is a totally made up example). All and all, there might be some MU mentions with the investigation in local news one evening but that's gonna be about it, especially given how bad some of it is going to be for some legendary programs*
*My prediction, MSU will be doneski.....between the Nasar stuff(which they've seemingly skated on) and what's going to come out of this investigation they are going to get gutted.
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There is a theory out there (if you want to believe the blue and gold glass vantage point) that one of the reasons Wojo left when he did was because of the one and done/less than up and up direction Duke was heading. Remember Wojo was asked multiple times to leave offered several other head coaching jobsbut didn't until the MU job came open which seemingly timed with some of the seeming bag dropping going on at Duke.
Having said that, I'd be shocked if there is more than circumstantial evidence of cheating at MU (direct proof like payments, etc) and I'd be shocked if there is zero evidence of MU cheating (there is no MU connection to the investigation at all).
My sense of it based on some conversations is that there is no concern of being "nailed" by the investigation but that some stuff could come out that could be construed as shady (think something like a wiretap comes out with a staffer talking to a recruit that could be interpreted as less than on the up and up - note this is a totally made up example). All and all, there might be some MU mentions with the investigation in local news one evening but that's gonna be about it, especially given how bad some of it is going to be for some legendary programs*
*My prediction, MSU will be doneski.....between the Nasar stuff(which they've seemingly skated on) and what's going to come out of this investigation they are going to get gutted.
FIFY
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FIFY
Well sure, that's right if you are into being less lazy and more accurate.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/vEgtLzJo8n7qg/giphy.gif)
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Sparty is getting nastier by the day:
Report: MSU Basketball Player Under Investigation For Possible Criminal Sexual Conduct
https://deadspin.com/report-msu-basketball-player-under-investigation-for-1823060695?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow
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If we're cheatin', den fire fookin' Wojo today, 'cuz wee definately need to cheat bedder and he's failin' us miserably in dat regard, aina?
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There is a theory out there (if you want to believe the blue and gold glass vantage point) that one of the reasons Wojo left when he did was because of the one and done/less than up and up direction Duke was heading. Remember Wojo was asked multiple times to leave but didn't until the MU job came open which seemingly timed with some of the seeming bag dropping going on at Duke.
Having said that, I'd be shocked if there is more than circumstantial evidence of cheating at MU (direct proof like payments, etc) and I'd be shocked if there is zero evidence of MU cheating (there is no MU connection to the investigation at all).
My sense of it based on some conversations is that there is no concern of being "nailed" by the investigation but that some stuff could come out that could be construed as shady (think something like a wiretap comes out with a staffer talking to a recruit that could be interpreted as less than on the up and up - note this is a totally made up example). All and all, there might be some MU mentions with the investigation in local news one evening but that's gonna be about it, especially given how bad some of it is going to be for some legendary programs*
*My prediction, MSU will be doneski.....between the Nasar stuff(which they've seemingly skated on) and what's going to come out of this investigation they are going to get gutted.
“bag dropping”. Always nice to spot a Mark Titus fan out here in the wild.
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“bag dropping”. Always nice to spot a Mark Titus fan out here in the wild.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/mGptc3Ihyg048/giphy.gif)
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Capel is viewed as far and away the favorite of any of the Duke affiliated coaches to take over for Coach K whenever he steps down because he’s the one who got the program to embrace the one and done culture. Wojo was on his way out just as this was starting at Duke.
The FBI isn’t looking at what was happening 5 years ago. They weren’t wiring middlemen up when Wojo was on the road with K to Kyrie Irving’s house. This is far more recent. If Wojo gets in trouble it’ll be for something he did at MU. And if he gets in trouble for something he did at MU, he’s cheating wrong.
This made me chuckle.
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Totally agree. Capel is the wildcard at Duke. It’s a new day there with him.
The "bag dropping" was happening at Duke well before Capel got there. Lance Thomas ring a bell? But, since it's Duke, the paragon of virtue and the symbol of all that is right and good in college basketball (notice that the criticism of schools relying on one and done kids was dropped when Duke started doing it) they are protected. The NCAA and their media partners will make sure Duke is not implicated when the hammer drops.
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The "bag dropping" was happening at Duke well before Capel got there. Lance Thomas ring a bell? But, since it's Duke, the paragon of virtue and the symbol of all that is right and good in college basketball (notice that the criticism of schools relying on one and done kids was dropped when Duke started doing it) they are protected. The NCAA and their media partners will make sure Duke is not implicated when the hammer drops.
I don't think the NCAA is in the driver's seat on this in any way. This is their nightmare. I can't see them being able to protect anyone. I do think Duke is probably smarter about covering their tracks than most, which is what will likely save them the most.
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The "bag dropping" was happening at Duke well before Capel got there. Lance Thomas ring a bell? But, since it's Duke, the paragon of virtue and the symbol of all that is right and good in college basketball (notice that the criticism of schools relying on one and done kids was dropped when Duke started doing it) they are protected. The NCAA and their media partners will make sure Duke is not implicated when the hammer drops.
So you think the NCAA and the media can get the FBI to turn the other way for Duke if they have evidence on Duke bribery? Count me as skeptical.
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So you think the NCAA and the media can get the FBI to turn the other way for Duke if they have evidence on Duke bribery? Count me as skeptical.
We have a former head of the FBI investigating the President’s campaign, but they’ll be scared off by the NCAA???
Lol.
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We have a former head of the FBI investigating the President’s campaign, but they’ll be scared off by the NCAA???
Lol.
Fake News! Biased investigation! Deep State!
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Reasons
This post pretty much sums up the internet.
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We have a former head of the FBI investigating the President’s campaign, but they’ll be scared off by the NCAA???
Lol.
^^^ ban dis guy
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^^^ ban dis guy
Rules don't apply to all apparently, hey?
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Rules don't apply to all apparently, hey?
Let's Go Warriors!!!
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This post pretty much sums up the internet.
You're right. It is impossible to think something on a message board without explaining yourself in long form.
MY BAD.
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https://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/report-spreadsheets-and-documents-list-names-and-details-in-college-basketball-payment-scheme
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1. Barstool broke that news?!!!
2. Eerily similar to Artie Piscano in “Casino”:
https://youtu.be/DzC-ajqynG4
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From the Yahoo article - "If your school produced a first-round pick in the past three years, be worried."
Yikes. We had one of those didn't we?
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I think the only the Ellensons got was a free ride for Wally!
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I think the only the Ellensons got was a free ride for Wally!
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/l0HlLTplhBcGO5t1m/giphy.gif)
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I think the only the Ellensons got was a free ride for Wally!
And an ice cream truck
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This article shows the spreadsheets.
https://sports.yahoo.com/exclusive-federal-documents-detail-sweeping-potential-ncaa-violations-involving-high-profile-players-schools-103338484.html
No Marquette players. But Xavier, Creighton and SHU.
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Phew!
MU not listed once.
But Duke, mich state, Kentucky, witchita state, Alabama, auburn, USC are listed a few times.
For the BEast:
Creigthon, Xavier, SHU and "Villanova coaches" are listed.
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Do we now know why DJ Newbill skipped town?
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Diamond Stone, at the time a freshman at Maryland, received $14,303 according to the documents.
Would who have thought?
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Let's say Mack is truthful here..
Only Xavier coach Chris Mack elected to release a statement. He said: “I have no relationship with Andy Miller or any of his associates. He plays no role in the recruitment of potential student athletes on Xavier’s behalf. Beyond that, our staff has never created a path for him to foster a relationship with any of our student-athletes while enrolled at Xavier. Any suggestion that I or anyone on my staff utilized Andy Miller to provide even the slightest of financial benefits to a Xavier student-athlete is grossly misinformed. We are prepared to cooperate with any and all investigations at any level.”
He's got nothing to do with payments, Xavier itself stayed clean. But Sumner definitely took the money, X and Mack should still hang for it, right? No institutional control?
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Let's say Mack is truthful here..
Only Xavier coach Chris Mack elected to release a statement. He said: “I have no relationship with Andy Miller or any of his associates. He plays no role in the recruitment of potential student athletes on Xavier’s behalf. Beyond that, our staff has never created a path for him to foster a relationship with any of our student-athletes while enrolled at Xavier. Any suggestion that I or anyone on my staff utilized Andy Miller to provide even the slightest of financial benefits to a Xavier student-athlete is grossly misinformed. We are prepared to cooperate with any and all investigations at any level.”
He's got nothing to do with payments, Xavier itself stayed clean. But Sumner definitely took the money, X and Mack should still hang for it, right? No institutional control?
If history is an indicator, the answer would be yes. This is similar to Marcus Camby and UMass. Given the depth of this investigation at the federal level, it could be years before the NCAA can do much about it.
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Nova's Kyle Lowry is also on the list.
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Let's say Mack is truthful here..
Only Xavier coach Chris Mack elected to release a statement. He said: “I have no relationship with Andy Miller or any of his associates. He plays no role in the recruitment of potential student athletes on Xavier’s behalf. Beyond that, our staff has never created a path for him to foster a relationship with any of our student-athletes while enrolled at Xavier. Any suggestion that I or anyone on my staff utilized Andy Miller to provide even the slightest of financial benefits to a Xavier student-athlete is grossly misinformed. We are prepared to cooperate with any and all investigations at any level.”
He's got nothing to do with payments, Xavier itself stayed clean. But Sumner definitely took the money, X and Mack should still hang for it, right? No institutional control?
Ordinarily I'd agree with you, but I'm not sure how any of us can reasonably expect any institution to be able to track a player and his parents financial transactions outside of the school's control. If Sumner is getting a "loan" or even harder his dad is getting a "loan" has is X supposed to know that and stop it? At some point the individuals themselves have to have agency to stay within eligibility rules. In this scenario, Sumner should be ineligible but I don't know that X has any responsibility (based on what we know).
This is just another example of why the NCAA has it all wrong when it comes to amateurism. Their model invites more corruption than it prevents, if "star players" were able to profit off the fame outside of university activities (local dealership wants them as a sponsor, etc) these types of things wouldn't matter. This is the hellscape that the NCAA created for itself and I can't wait to watch it burn.
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Ordinarily I'd agree with you, but I'm not sure how any of us can reasonably expect any institution to be able to track a player and his parents financial transactions outside of the school's control. If Sumner is getting a "loan" or even harder his dad is getting a "loan" has is X supposed to know that and stop it? At some point the individuals themselves have to have agency to stay within eligibility rules. In this scenario, Sumner should be ineligible but I don't know that X has any responsibility (based on what we know).
This is just another example of why the NCAA has it all wrong when it comes to amateurism. Their model invites more corruption than it prevents, if "star players" were able to profit off the fame outside of university activities (local dealership wants them as a sponsor, etc) these types of things wouldn't matter. This is the hellscape that the NCAA created for itself and I can't wait to watch it burn.
As much as I would like to see Mack hang, you word for word described by feelings on this.
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Glad to see we weren’t mentioned.
But color me shocked if anything meaningful will actually happen to any of these teams.
Kansas on the list. Come on down, Mr. Grimes!
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Glad to see we weren’t mentioned.
But color me shocked if anything meaningful will actually happen to any of these teams.
Yep. The NCAA has time and again proven itself utterly toothless. I don't expect any meaningful punishment to come of this except maybe Coach K sits out an exhibition game (and whines about it). Fun!
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Ordinarily I'd agree with you, but I'm not sure how any of us can reasonably expect any institution to be able to track a player and his parents financial transactions outside of the school's control. If Sumner is getting a "loan" or even harder his dad is getting a "loan" has is X supposed to know that and stop it? At some point the individuals themselves have to have agency to stay within eligibility rules. In this scenario, Sumner should be ineligible but I don't know that X has any responsibility (based on what we know).
This is just another example of why the NCAA has it all wrong when it comes to amateurism. Their model invites more corruption than it prevents, if "star players" were able to profit off the fame outside of university activities (local dealership wants them as a sponsor, etc) these types of things wouldn't matter. This is the hellscape that the NCAA created for itself and I can't wait to watch it burn.
Wasn't this precedent set with Cam Newton? His dad took money. The school and Cam claimed ignorance of the event. No evidence tying school to money. The NCAA did nothing.
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This really is too big for the NCAA anyway. It’s been starved by its members who really don’t want vigorous enforcement.
The amateurism model is the problem. Economics always wins. Instead of fighting it, regulate meaningful compensation. A model can exist if smart people put their minds together.
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Certainly an interesting read. Waiting for the DOJ bomb to drop though, which will be tantalizing to see who took plea deals and then what action will take place.
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This isn't the entire investigation, so it's likely other schools are still to be named.
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At this point I'd start making a recruit and his family sign a document stating they won't accept any money from outside sources and that if they do they understand the school will go after them in court.
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At this point I'd start making a recruit and his family sign a document stating they won't accept any money from outside sources and that if they do they understand the school will go after them in court.
Yeah, cause recruits will totally fall in love with a school that does that.
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A model can exist if smart people put their minds together.
Given it's the NCAA, this statement seems non-applicable ;D
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Do we now know why DJ Newbill skipped town?
Squirmy...
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Yeah, cause recruits will totally fall in love with a school that does that.
If everybody does it then it's just another clause a school uses to protect themselves.
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The schools and coaches can say they had no knowledge, and while that may be true..how do they prove that? That seems to be the issue..all they have is their word.
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I'm shocked to see Isaiah Whitehead took money ::)
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I'm shocked to see Isaiah Whitehead took money ::)
Kinda makes you wonder about the rest of that class, since they were an apparent package deal of sorts
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I thoughts Whitehead's deal was he got to bring some of his less talented buddies.
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Also, I wonder what PhillyCoach's relationship to all this crap with Newbill was.
At least Scoop has yet to be named in the probe. Moderators should start seeking legal counsel, not from Scoop. One call.
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Also, I wonder what PhillyCoach's relationship to all this crap with Newbill was.
At least Scoop has yet to be named in the probe. Moderators should start seeking legal counsel, not from Scoop. One call.
Probably can get us all some T-shirts, eh?
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One call.
Speaking of which, how has he not gotten the naming right to the new arena yet?
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Speaking of which, how has he not gotten the naming right to the new arena yet?
Arby's is making a strong push
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Off on a tangent here.... Any of the schools mentioned have stud point guard? Either a grad transfer or an incoming Frosh recruit that we could get? How about both, we should pay top dollar for a package deal.....
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Off on a tangent here.... Any of the schools mentioned have stud point guard? Either a grad transfer or an incoming Frosh recruit that we could get? How about both, we should pay top dollar for a package deal.....
Does the name Quentin Grimes ring a bell?
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Does the name Quentin Grimes ring a bell?
Worth noting that Texas is also mentioned as a school that's implicated. Could be a bit of a statement to the Scoop crowd both about the ultimate destination of Grimes and if Shaka would've been worth it.
All that said, Grimes would be intriguing if he decommitted. I don't think he'd be a lock to Marquette even if Kansas, Kentucky, and Texas were all out as options.
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Glad to see we weren’t mentioned.
But color me shocked if anything meaningful will actually happen to any of these teams.
Kansas on the list. Come on down, Mr. Grimes!
The NCAA will come down very, very hard. Lots of big, mean words will be used. Teeth will be gnashed during the Tournament.
Then, not much will be done. Lying and cheating will continue to be virtues in college sports.
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At this point I'd start making a recruit and his family sign a document stating they won't accept any money from outside sources and that if they do they understand the school will go after them in court.
Um..... how about we go after the schools, instead of going after the people with nothing.
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The NCAA will come down very, very hard. Lots of big, mean words will be used. Teeth will be gnashed during the Tournament.
Then, not much will be done. Lying and cheating will continue to be virtues in college sports.
NC A&T is going to get the punished to the nth degree for what the big names did.
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Bucky is hanging its championship banner today
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Even if the NCAA won’t do anything to punish the schools at the moment, I’m assuming the least they could do is make the players on the list ineligible for the rest of the season/post season play? Players such as Wendell carter for Duke or Miles Bridges for MSU could be possibly be named ineligible and that seems like the most substantial penalties that could be levied in terms of the rest of this season, unless they just go all out and name the schools involved ineligible for the tournament? I highly doubt they would do that though cause that would probably lose the NCAA a ton of money they would make off the tournament because of low ratings, but the player ineligibility seems realistic. Most likely none of the schools, especially the big schools will get a post season ban or anything of that sort imo, the NCAA wont want to do that.
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Worth noting that Texas is also mentioned as a school that's implicated. Could be a bit of a statement to the Scoop crowd both about the ultimate destination of Grimes and if Shaka would've been worth it.
All that said, Grimes would be intriguing if he decommitted. I don't think he'd be a lock to Marquette even if Kansas, Kentucky, and Texas were all out as options.
Would MU welcome him back? In his recruiting it seemed all the dominos were falling our way and after a long courtship picks he Kansas who I don't think were PG starved.
I remember one of Big Daddy's posts mention he would comment on it when he was cleared to do it.
I think Stan's twitter after his decission was kinda of Bitter.
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Now having read this "blockbuster" report, I've got to say ... what a great, big nothingburger.
Miles Bridges' mom maybe got a few hundred dollars? Justin Patton, Wendell Carter and Collin Sexton had a meal?
Who cares?
This is a sport where even assistant coaches make mid six-figure salaries, but we're going to punish and ostracize teenagers for a free lunch?
SHEESH.
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Speaking of which, how has he not gotten the naming right to the new arena yet?
It might be because the owners are looking for $10MM/year for 10 years according to a recent article.
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Now having read this "blockbuster" report, I've got to say ... what a great, big nothingburger.
Miles Bridges' mom maybe got a few hundred dollars? Justin Patton, Wendell Carter and Collin Sexton had a meal?
Who cares?
This is a sport where even assistant coaches make mid six-figure salaries, but we're going to punish and ostracize teenagers for a free lunch?
SHEESH.
I thought it was an interesting read, but the DOJ report will be the big one, that's the one that matters.
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Now having read this "blockbuster" report, I've got to say ... what a great, big nothingburger.
Miles Bridges' mom maybe got a few hundred dollars? Justin Patton, Wendell Carter and Collin Sexton had a meal?
Who cares?
This is a sport where even assistant coaches make mid six-figure salaries, but we're going to punish and ostracize teenagers for a free lunch?
SHEESH.
(https://imgur.com/gallery/1uf27Y7)
So are you just going to ignore the 26 players in this one report that got thousands of dollars? Including one (DJ Newbill) that had peripheral ties to our own program? Or that 8/26 were receiving 5 figures?
As far as Grimes, I'm not sure Marquette would welcome him back. I'd love him as a player, but I wouldn't blame the staff for not welcoming him into the fold.
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It might be because the owners are looking for $10MM/year for 10 years according to a recent article.
Really thought I didn't have to use teal. His relationship with the Bucks is great, to the point where he's on the jumbo screen with the players after they hit a three, but there's no way that he would actually consider going for naming rights.
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Now having read this "blockbuster" report, I've got to say ... what a great, big nothingburger.
Miles Bridges' mom maybe got a few hundred dollars? Justin Patton, Wendell Carter and Collin Sexton had a meal?
Who cares?
This is a sport where even assistant coaches make mid six-figure salaries, but we're going to punish and ostracize teenagers for a free lunch?
SHEESH.
There were some big numbers in there for sure, but the fact that lunches and small dollar "loans" are part of the FBI probe is a bit over the top, in my opinion. It will be interesting to see where the feds draw the line on criminal conduct given the wide difference in benefits received.
That said, I don't see why any kid with a future in hoops wouldn't just create some kind of LLC or other business entity to avoid some of the direct exposure here. Wouldn't that, in theory, be a way around some of the rules? Couldn't ASM pay for a lunch for a few employees of Quentin Grimes & Co?
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At this point I'd start making a recruit and his family sign a document stating they won't accept any money from outside sources and that if they do they understand the school will go after them in court.
I don't think you would have to have any legal recourse in that kind of document, maybe the kid would lose a schollie instead. That way it would be proof to the NCAA (or FBI?) that the school took reasonable measures to prevent illicit activity from occurring.
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(https://imgur.com/gallery/1uf27Y7)
So are you just going to ignore the 26 players in this one report that got thousands of dollars? Including one (DJ Newbill) that had peripheral ties to our own program? Or that 8/26 were receiving 5 figures?
Yes, I am. Because, again, who cares? Unless there's evidence that the programs were in cahoots with these agents, funneling money to or through them, or that the players were being steered to certain programs by these benefits, what difference does it make?
How does Dennis Smith taking money from an agent under the table affect the competitive balance of college basketball or give NC State an unfair advantage? Where's the benefit to Utah from Kyle Kuzma getting a few thousand dollars? How many wins did Alabama get this year because Collin Sexton ate lunch with an agent?
Unless Yahoo Sports is holding back information, this report has zero bearing on the fairness of college basketball or the recruiting process. It's all about the NCAA propping up a hypocritical notion of amateurism in which everyone around the game makes money except for the players themselves.
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That said, I don't see why any kid with a future in hoops wouldn't just create some kind of LLC or other business entity to avoid some of the direct exposure here. Wouldn't that, in theory, be a way around some of the rules? Couldn't ASM pay for a lunch for a few employees of Quentin Grimes & Co?
Well, no that wouldn't get around the rules. Perhaps it makes the investigation take a bit longer for them to figure out who the beneficial owners are.
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Um..... how about we go after the schools, instead of going after the people with nothing.
So if a player or player's parent costs a school thousands without the school knowing then we should penalize the school? I'm on your side of the aisle when it comes to the political spectrum I'm not someone who's saying let them starve, but if a report concluded that say Vander Blue had been paid without our knowledge and then Marquette needed to pay back thousands and thousands of dollars you better believe I think he should be liable for that.
Also aren't you supposed to have me on ignore?
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Yes, I am. Because, again, who cares? Unless there's evidence that the programs were in cahoots with these agents, funneling money to or through them, or that the players were being steered to certain programs by these benefits, what difference does it make?
How does Dennis Smith taking money from an agent under the table affect the competitive balance of college basketball or give NC State an unfair advantage? Where's the benefit to Utah from Kyle Kuzma getting a few thousand dollars? How many wins did Alabama get this year because Collin Sexton ate lunch with an agent?
Because they're bribes, because they are illegal, and because they open up the door for further illegal actions. It's easy to assume the schools don't know. It's just as plausible that they did, especially because they do end up with a benefit.
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If Wojo and staff did not "welcome him back" (can you welcome someone back that never came in the first place?) because Grimes originally chose a blue blood that his mother went to first before he eliminated them because maybe there will be some sort of punishment for Kansas in an FBI investigation into bribery, that would be the first time I would worry about Wojo and staff not having what it takes to get it done.
The only possible reason to not "welcome Grimes back" if he started blowing up Stan's and Wojo's phone again seeing if they can revisit their mutual interest is if Grimes was named as a player who had accepted cash during his recruitment. Otherwise if a 5 star comes calling that simply chose one school over yours and reconsidered, for whatever reason? At the biggest position of need going into a season where if you address that need you are a top 20 team with Final Four potential? Dear God would I be pissed if Wojo said, "Thanks, but we're looking for someone who actually wants to be here from the get go."
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I don't think you would have to have any legal recourse in that kind of document, maybe the kid would lose a schollie instead. That way it would be proof to the NCAA (or FBI?) that the school took reasonable measures to prevent illicit activity from occurring.
If the school is forced to pay back NCAA credits, or loses a scholarship etc etc there's liquidated damages that the athlete or whomever else took the money should be responsible for. This type of clause could separate the actual cheaters from the cheating athletes.
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So if a player or player's parent costs a school thousands without the school knowing then we should penalize the school? I'm on your side of the aisle when it comes to the political spectrum I'm not someone who's saying let them starve, but if a report concluded that say Vander Blue had been paid without our knowledge and then Marquette needed to pay back thousands and thousands of dollars you better believe I think he should be liable for that.
Also aren't you supposed to have me on ignore?
Serious question ... has a school ever been ordered to pay back thousands and thousands of dollars for unknowingly using an ineligible player?
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Serious question ... has a school ever been ordered to pay back thousands and thousands of dollars for unknowingly using an ineligible player?
Don't schools have to repay NCAA credits when seasons are revoked?
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Serious question ... has a school ever been ordered to pay back thousands and thousands of dollars for unknowingly using an ineligible player?
How about Louisville and the $600K they're being forced to pay back for their 2013 NCAA Championship run?
BUT if people really believe that guys like Rick, Cal...heck, any college basketball coach "doesn't know" their players are getting paid, talking to agents or shoe companies, etc. I don't really know what to say. These guys are egomaniac control freaks who know everything that happens to anyone involved in their programs.
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Because they're bribes, because they are illegal, and because they open up the door for further illegal actions. It's easy to assume the schools don't know. It's just as plausible that they did, especially because they do end up with a benefit.
1. Nothing in this report (which is what we're talking about) suggests the schools knew.
2. Are they bribes or loans against future earnings? If I go out to lunch with a vendor seeking my company's business, am I being bribed? When my company offers its luxury box to a client, are we committing fraud?
3. Once more, please explain the benefit to the schools revealed in this report. I'm not seeing it.
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How about Louisville and the $600K they're being forced to pay back for their 2013 NCAA Championship run?
Unknowing use of an inelgible player is not the reason Louisville is being punished. I mean, that's not even close to why Louisville is being punished.
Try again.
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If the school is forced to pay back NCAA credits, or loses a scholarship etc etc there's liquidated damages that the athlete or whomever else took the money should be responsible for. This type of clause could separate the actual cheaters from the cheating athletes.
I see what you're saying, but I don't know how much they'd really be able to recoup. I think they'd be better off to just show that they took steps to stop illegal behavior in order to try to avoid the potential liability. Do schools really end up paying this out of pocket anyway? Or is it covered by some kind of insurance policy that covers penalties incurred by agents of the university, or something along those lines?
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The only possible reason to not "welcome Grimes back" if he started blowing up Stan's and Wojo's phone again seeing if they can revisit their mutual interest is if Grimes was named as a player who had accepted cash during his recruitment.
Am I reading this right, this is the Only reason not to welcome him back in your thinking. Thanks
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Really thought I didn't have to use teal. His relationship with the Bucks is great, to the point where he's on the jumbo screen with the players after they hit a three, but there's no way that he would actually consider going for naming rights.
Plus...the Arby's thing
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If Wojo and staff did not "welcome him back" (can you welcome someone back that never came in the first place?) because Grimes originally chose a blue blood that his mother went to first before he eliminated them because maybe there will be some sort of punishment for Kansas in an FBI investigation into bribery, that would be the first time I would worry about Wojo and staff not having what it takes to get it done.
The only possible reason to not "welcome Grimes back" if he started blowing up Stan's and Wojo's phone again seeing if they can revisit their mutual interest is if Grimes was named as a player who had accepted cash during his recruitment. Otherwise if a 5 star comes calling that simply chose one school over yours and reconsidered, for whatever reason? At the biggest position of need going into a season where if you address that need you are a top 20 team with Final Four potential? Dear God would I be pissed if Wojo said, "Thanks, but we're looking for someone who actually wants to be here from the get go."
That wouldn't be why he wasn't welcomed back. Not going to go into it, but there are reasons outside of bribes that I feel would completely justify the staff deciding to not pursue him again if he reopened his recruitment.
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That wouldn't be why he wasn't welcomed back. Not going to go into it, but there are reasons outside of bribes that I feel would completely justify the staff deciding to not pursue him again if he reopened his recruitment.
And I know what those concerns are, and I think Wojo rejecting him out of hand would be a mistake. Conversations can be had.
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Because they're bribes, because they are illegal, and because they open up the door for further illegal actions. It's easy to assume the schools don't know. It's just as plausible that they did, especially because they do end up with a benefit.
Once the list of schools who have players who got benefits from these agents gets long enough, can it really be said that the schools are benefiting from these payments? Honestly, if the agents are running around paying kids at dozens of schools, that would seem to suggest, to me at least, that the schools really don't have much to do with it. The longer the list of schools gets, the more it looks like the agents don't give a crap where the kids go to school, they just want to get into a relationship with the kids.
Obviously, the amateurism issue is something else entirely.
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1. Nothing in this report (which is what we're talking about) suggests the schools knew.
2. Are they bribes or loans against future earnings? If I go out to lunch with a vendor seeking my company's business, am I being bribed? When my company offers its luxury box to a client, are we committing fraud?
3. Once more, please explain the benefit to the schools revealed in this report. I'm not seeing it.
1. The biggest problem there becomes institutional control. If this is happening, why weren't you aware of it and why didn't you take action to stem it off before it occurred?
2. When it comes to amateurs, and I know you don't like the idea of amateurism, I don't see any way it can not be considered a bribe. Until the player has the ability to pay it back, which means they are making money and assured a professional future, it's a gift. Considering how easily an injury or bust could derail a player's ability to pay back these types of sums, I would view it as a bribe, even if they wrote "loan" on their balance sheet.
3. Steering of players (like Smith, who received this before enrolling) and paying players (because they are getting paid while in school) jump out most prominently.
I agree with you that the real question is how amateurism is going to be handled going forward. The reality is this is going on around the country. Some of the schools are involved, some are likely in the dark. But the schools are absolutely profiting off players who are not allowed to profit themselves. That all needs to be sorted out and fixed. I don't know all the answers to that. But this stuff is all preamble to any amateurism changes. Right now, it's dealing with the situation as it is, not as we would like it to be.
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And I know what those concerns are, and I think Wojo rejecting him out of hand would be a mistake. Conversations can be had.
Sure, and I wouldn't object to them pursuing him. But I'm not going to be upset if they don't.
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Unknowing use of an inelgible player is not the reason Louisville is being punished. I mean, that's not even close to why Louisville is being punished.
Try again.
Sure I'll try again. UMASS had to pay back some of its NCAA Tournament credits for when Marcus Camby was playing for them.
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Is anyone at all concerned that Duke was implicated and our headcoach was a key recruiter at Duke? or is this report for time periods after Wojo had left Duke?
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1. The biggest problem there becomes institutional control. If this is happening, why weren't you aware of it and why didn't you take action to stem it off before it occurred?
2. When it comes to amateurs, and I know you don't like the idea of amateurism, I don't see any way it can not be considered a bribe. Until the player has the ability to pay it back, which means they are making money and assured a professional future, it's a gift. Considering how easily an injury or bust could derail a player's ability to pay back these types of sums, I would view it as a bribe, even if they wrote "loan" on their balance sheet.
3. Steering of players (like Smith, who received this before enrolling) and paying players (because they are getting paid while in school) jump out most prominently.
I agree with you that the real question is how amateurism is going to be handled going forward. The reality is this is going on around the country. Some of the schools are involved, some are likely in the dark. But the schools are absolutely profiting off players who are not allowed to profit themselves. That all needs to be sorted out and fixed. I don't know all the answers to that. But this stuff is all preamble to any amateurism changes. Right now, it's dealing with the situation as it is, not as we would like it to be.
Regarding #2, amateurism isn't a legal status. Someone can give an NCAA athlete all the money they want as a gift or a loan and it's not illegal. It's just against NCAA rules.
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Am I reading this right, this is the Only reason not to welcome him back in your thinking. Thanks
As far as I know yes. If there are character issues with Grimes or other issues that might bring into question his eligibility as an NCAA athlete then sure there would be reasons not to pursue him, but as far as I know the only possible reason would be if Kansas is in trouble with the FBI because Grimes is one of the players they were paying. I haven't heard any reason to be concerned about Grimes as a person, so my thinking is that other than his connection to a school named in the FBI investigation, there aren't really any red flags. I could just be unaware of other issues though.
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Ordinarily I'd agree with you, but I'm not sure how any of us can reasonably expect any institution to be able to track a player and his parents financial transactions outside of the school's control. If Sumner is getting a "loan" or even harder his dad is getting a "loan" has is X supposed to know that and stop it? At some point the individuals themselves have to have agency to stay within eligibility rules. In this scenario, Sumner should be ineligible but I don't know that X has any responsibility (based on what we know).
This is just another example of why the NCAA has it all wrong when it comes to amateurism. Their model invites more corruption than it prevents, if "star players" were able to profit off the fame outside of university activities (local dealership wants them as a sponsor, etc) these types of things wouldn't matter. This is the hellscape that the NCAA created for itself and I can't wait to watch it burn.
Basically, couldn't their punishment just be forfeiting any game in which they used an ineligible player? Seems to me that is the best thing to do. No further sanctions, unless you have proof they were involved in the wrongdoing.
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Is anyone at all concerned that Duke was implicated and our headcoach was a key recruiter at Duke? or is this report for time periods after Wojo had left Duke?
Not concerned at all.
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I hope it's only the player or 's involved get released. No need to
punish the whole team. I sure most of us knew who
the cheaters were. I wonder how many shoe companys were involed.
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And I know what those concerns are, and I think Wojo rejecting him out of hand would be a mistake. Conversations can be had.
Anything you would care to share?
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Once the list of schools who have players who got benefits from these agents gets long enough, can it really be said that the schools are benefiting from these payments? Honestly, if the agents are running around paying kids at dozens of schools, that would seem to suggest, to me at least, that the schools really don't have much to do with it. The longer the list of schools gets, the more it looks like the agents don't give a crap where the kids go to school, they just want to get into a relationship with the kids.
Obviously, the amateurism issue is something else entirely.
Doesn't the timing of the payment make a pretty significant difference in all of this? If these payments are coming after the kids have enrolled at a school, how can there be any argument that the school benefits from this at all? If someone gives Markus $10K tomorrow, we don't become a better team or get more wins all of a sudden. There's no advantage to the school as far as I can tell.
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Would MU welcome him back? In his recruiting it seemed all the dominos were falling our way and after a long courtship picks he Kansas who I don't think were PG starved.
I remember one of Big Daddy's posts mention he would comment on it when he was cleared to do it.
I think Stan's twitter after his decission was kinda of Bitter.
I don't think there was anything improper with Grimes' recruitment. But I do believe that Grimes gave the staff some impressions that ended up not playing out. I think if Grimes were to become available (not expecting that to happen at all) that MU would welcome him back.
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I'm reading this report to be that most or all of this happened with players looking to turn pro, so this didn't affect recruitments. This was just an agency trying to steer kids to sign with them before the draft
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1. Nothing in this report (which is what we're talking about) suggests the schools knew.
2. Are they bribes or loans against future earnings? If I go out to lunch with a vendor seeking my company's business, am I being bribed? When my company offers its luxury box to a client, are we committing fraud?
3. Once more, please explain the benefit to the schools revealed in this report. I'm not seeing it.
On number 2, yes a vendor taking you to lunch is a bribe. In my world, I could be fired for letting a vendor pay for my lunch. I nearly lost my graduate assistantship because I let a vendor buy me a drink at a conference. Universities tend to take that stuff very seriously.
That being said, I don't think a vendor buying you a lunch and what is going on here are comparable situations. If this was it, I would be pretty non-plussed (depending on the timing of some of these payments). This is just the first leaked document in what will likely be a boatload of leaked documents.
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On number 2, yes a vendor taking you to lunch is a bribe. In my world, I could be fired for letting a vendor pay for my lunch. I nearly lost my graduate assistantship because I let a vendor buy me a drink at a conference. Universities tend to take that stuff very seriously.
That's because you're a government employee, not because the act itself is unlawful.
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That's because you're a government employee, not because the act itself is unlawful.
I understand. That doesn't mean its not a bribe. And according to the NCAA, it is against the rules for the students. You may not like but it is against the rules.
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I understand. That doesn't mean its not a bribe. And according to the NCAA, it is against the rules for the students. You may not like but it is against the rules.
Again, it's a bribe only because you're a government employee, though. There's nothing inherent in the act itself that is illegal.
Against the rules and illegal are not the same.
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That's because you're a government employee, not because the act itself is unlawful.
I'm not a government employee, but I'd be fired if I let a vendor take me to lunch.
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Again, it's a bribe only because you're a government employee, though. There's nothing inherent in the act itself that is illegal.
Against the rules and illegal are not the same.
You're right, but isn't the point that it is not about doing something illegal - at least as far as the athletes are concerned. It is about breaking the rules -for coaches and schools - that they have ALL agreed to follow.
Unless you think coaches weren't aware of what was happening. Either the rules have to be enforced or all rules need to be eliminated.
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I'm not a government employee, but I'd be fired if I let a vendor take me to lunch.
My brother worked as a buyer in the grocery industry. The amount of stuff he got from vendors was absolutely stunning. Tickets to literally anything that he wanted in Phoenix - all four WS games, SuperBowl, Suns, Diamond Backs, Cardinals, concerts, bowl games, WWE, etc.; gaming systems; Bose Home Theater system; travel; golf clubs; etc. My recollection was that he was allowed one event/item per vendor per month or something like that. Everything had to be reported and documented, but he got to keep it all.
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On number 2, yes a vendor taking you to lunch is a bribe. In my world, I could be fired for letting a vendor pay for my lunch. I nearly lost my graduate assistantship because I let a vendor buy me a drink at a conference. Universities tend to take that stuff very seriously.
At the risk of burning in the hell my Journalism ethics professors would make for me, I don't see this is as a big deal, unless, Brother TAMU, as you point out, your institution expressly forbids it.
I once worked for a newspaper editor who thought this stuff was trival and said, "if you can be bought for a lunch, I'm not sure you should be working here."
There are two critical issues TAMU and others bring. The first is whether you have an explicit policy governing lunches, drinks, payments etc. You go by the policy and if you have a tough policy like A&M's and think, as my ex-newspaper editor did, it's trivial, you find another job.
Secondly, was the policy communicated properly. In the NCAA's case, the answer is yes, yes and yes. If you think it is wrong, you have the option of not playing NCAA ball. But if you want to play for an NCAA member institution, you know the rules going in. To that extent, if someone took money, they are ineligible.
Except, if someone at North Carolina cheated, the NCAA will punish the heck out of Notre Dame.
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You're right, but isn't the point that it is not about doing something illegal - at least as far as the athletes are concerned. It is about breaking the rules -for coaches and schools - that they have ALL agreed to follow.
Unless you think coaches weren't aware of what was happening. Either the rules have to be enforced or all rules need to be eliminated.
No one is saying this isn't a rule.
I'm saying it's a bad and hypocritical rule.
It's insane that Coack K, for example, can make millions of dollars away from the court endorsing American Express, Chevrolet and Allstate, but Marvin Bagley risks suspension or worse if he gets a free lunch (much less actually profits off his likeness).
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Again, it's a bribe only because you're a government employee, though. There's nothing inherent in the act itself that is illegal.
Against the rules and illegal are not the same.
When did I ever say anything about it being illegal?
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When did I ever say anything about it being illegal?
Well, bribery is illegal. That's why the FBI is involved in this in the first place. So, anything that could be called a bribe, is essentially being called illegal. Obviously this is hugely subjective, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find a DA willing to bring charges over a cup of soup and half a sandwich at Panera.
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I guess under the broadest sense of the word, taking someone to lunch is a bribe. But most people use a narrower sense of the word that implies illegality or dishonesty. An agent taking a potential client to lunch is a pretty routine transaction.
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I'm not a government employee, but I'd be fired if I let a vendor take me to lunch.
Not singling you or anyone else but what the hell has happened to our society? Over the years attorneys and other vendors have done FAR MORE for me than buy me a simple lunch. NEVER ONCE was my determination of which firm I retained for a particular matter influenced in any way by some perceived perk. Never once was it ever expected by them either.
We've done everything from the circus with the entirety of both families in a United Center skybox to courtside seats for the Bulls to Packers/Bears tickets to whatever. All very standard vendor/client stuff with associates I did business with for decades. Lunch? Like I said, what the hell has happened?
One time in my career I certainly exceeded the internal guidelines (with the full blessing of our HR Department and my CEO.) I still remember our CEO telling me to have a great day and that it was a once in a lifetime experience but to be careful and prudent in my decisions about hiring this particular vendor too often going forward. I took his advice to heart and the nature of the professional relationship between our two organizations didn't change. What did I do? I got on a charter plane at 6am and day tripped to the Masters. Freakin' awesome.
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Not singling you or anyone else but what the hell has happened to our society? Over the years attorneys and other vendors have done FAR MORE for me than buy me a simple lunch. NEVER ONCE was my determination of which firm I retained for a particular matter influenced in any way by some perceived perk. Never once was it ever expected by them either.
We've done everything from the circus with the entirety of both families in a United Center skybox to courtside seats for the Bulls to Packers/Bears tickets to whatever. All very standard vendor/client stuff with associates I did business with for decades. Lunch? Like I said, what the hell has happened?
One time in my career I certainly exceeded the internal guidelines (with the full blessing of our HR Department and my CEO.) I still remember our CEO telling me to have a great day and that it was a once in a lifetime experience but to be careful and prudent in my decisions about hiring this particular vendor too often going forward. I took his advice to heart and the nature of the professional relationship between our two organizations didn't change. What did I do? I got on a charter plane at 6am and day tripped to the Masters. Freakin' awesome.
I'm not sure why you are making this an issue with "society." Some companies have gotten more strict about these types of relationships because of the perceived conflict of interest. I don't think there is anything right or wrong about that.
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I'm not sure why you are making this an issue with "society." Some companies have gotten more strict about these types of relationships because of the perceived conflict of interest. I don't think there is anything right or wrong about that.
Society is probably the wrong word. I guess business is just different these days. It's different in lots of ways. Some good. Some pretty crappy.
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One time in my career I certainly exceeded the internal guidelines (with the full blessing of our HR Department and my CEO.) I still remember our CEO telling me to have a great day and that it was a once in a lifetime experience but to be careful and prudent in my decisions about hiring this particular vendor too often going forward. I took his advice to heart and the nature of the professional relationship between our two organizations didn't change. What did I do? I got on a charter plane at 6am and day tripped to the Masters. Freakin' awesome.
You wouldn't happen to know if that group is hiring would you? Asking for a friend...
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You wouldn't happen to know if that group is hiring would you? Asking for a friend...
I will tell you that it wasn't a law firm. Lawyers are way too cheap! ;D
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I'm not sure why you are making this an issue with "society." Some companies have gotten more strict about these types of relationships because of the perceived conflict of interest. I don't think there is anything right or wrong about that.
Yep - the perceived conflict is the main source of my restriction. For a long time, there were no restrictions. Then other institutions got bad press about ethically questionable behavior related to gifts, so my company adopted a flexible policy that allowed de-minimus gifts. Then we found that there are so many variations in types and value of gifts - what is the $$ cutoff at which a meal might influence a decision? $50? $100 $500? - that it was too much hassle figuring out what to permit and what to prohibit, so we prohibited gifts altogether.
At first, people were upset because it changed the way things had long been done. But now, I’ve heard people say they prefer the “just say no” policy because it eliminates the hassle of figuring out where to draw the line, and avoids even the appearance of impropriety.
I know others disagree, but I like the current policy.
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Sure I'll try again. UMASS had to pay back some of its NCAA Tournament credits for when Marcus Camby was playing for them.
So, one time in 21 years.
Suffice to say, it's not something to be overly concerned about.
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Yep - the perceived conflict is the main source of my restriction. For a long time, there were no restrictions. Then other institutions got bad press about ethically questionable behavior related to gifts, so my company adopted a flexible policy that allowed de-minimus gifts. Then we found that there are so many variations in types and value of gifts - what is the $$ cutoff at which a meal might influence a decision? $50? $100 $500? - that it was too much hassle figuring out what to permit and what to prohibit, so we prohibited gifts altogether.
At first, people were upset because it changed the way things had long been done. But now, I’ve heard people say they prefer the “just say no” policy because it eliminates the hassle of figuring out where to draw the line, and avoids even the appearance of impropriety.
I know others disagree, but I like the current policy.
So how does it work. Let's say an employee heads downtown to work on a particular matter with a vendor. And let's say that meeting/project will consume most of the day and lunch is involved. Is the employee expected to ask for a separate check? Is that reimbursed as T&E, no questions asked? Curious.
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I don't think there was anything improper with Grimes' recruitment. But I do believe that Grimes gave the staff some impressions that ended up not playing out. I think if Grimes were to become available (not expecting that to happen at all) that MU would welcome him back.
I'm hoping Grimes is a one-and-done as that hastens the day when Big Daddy can give Scoop the scoop on what happened.
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This seems to be about one agent who met with some players over the years. Maybe some schools knew, maybe they didn't. Sure feels as though most of this falls into the nothing burger category.
My employer allows us to take lunches, but they must be reported and cannot be with a prospect vendor or during a year in which the contract ends. Taking someone to lunch isn't a bribe always, it can be a nice thing to do. If I take my employees to lunch on my dime, is that a bribe for a reward and thank you to them for hard work? We all see things differently.
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So how much did we pay for Henry?
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Not singling you or anyone else but what the hell has happened to our society? Over the years attorneys and other vendors have done FAR MORE for me than buy me a simple lunch. NEVER ONCE was my determination of which firm I retained for a particular matter influenced in any way by some perceived perk. Never once was it ever expected by them either.
And then there are airline miles. If a simple lunch is taboo, what's millions and millions of points applied to free trips, merchandise and dining around the world?
I choose my airline based on which one gets me to where I want to get to in a timely fashion and which one comes closest to serving me like I am a human being.
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So how much did we pay for Henry?
How much was Wally's scholarship worth?
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So how does it work. Let's say an employee heads downtown to work on a particular matter with a vendor. And let's say that meeting/project will consume most of the day and lunch is involved. Is the employee expected to ask for a separate check? Is that reimbursed as T&E, no questions asked? Curious.
Yes the employee would ask for a separate check, and cost would be reimbursed. I have never had an issue getting paid for legitimate business expenses, like meals and such.
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Not singling you or anyone else but what the hell has happened to our society? Over the years attorneys and other vendors have done FAR MORE for me than buy me a simple lunch. NEVER ONCE was my determination of which firm I retained for a particular matter influenced in any way by some perceived perk. Never once was it ever expected by them either.
We've done everything from the circus with the entirety of both families in a United Center skybox to courtside seats for the Bulls to Packers/Bears tickets to whatever. All very standard vendor/client stuff with associates I did business with for decades. Lunch? Like I said, what the hell has happened?
One time in my career I certainly exceeded the internal guidelines (with the full blessing of our HR Department and my CEO.) I still remember our CEO telling me to have a great day and that it was a once in a lifetime experience but to be careful and prudent in my decisions about hiring this particular vendor too often going forward. I took his advice to heart and the nature of the professional relationship between our two organizations didn't change. What did I do? I got on a charter plane at 6am and day tripped to the Masters. Freakin' awesome.
My last job, my boss sat me down a week in and gave me carte blanche "do whatever you have to do", I was the lead account exec for the largest account our company dealt with. If I wasn't taking people out to lunch/dinner multiple times a week, then there was a problem. I think the valet at Mastro's knew me by name at one point. I still tried to stay somewhat prudent, and would still ask up front so as not to get bitten in the butt later. 4 Cubs World Series tickets for my clients? I had approval to spend $20k instantly. Suites for concerts/sporting events were a piece of cake to get.
My great point is if I didn't do those things, I would have been fired. In that particular job/industry, everyone was doing the same thing. I had many friends at that particular client that I handled for over 10 years, and one particular story involved a young man at that client was with another vendor (not me) and the young man had gotten thrown out of the strip club they were at. To keep the client happy, the next day, the other vendor took the young man to lunch, and at the end of lunch, he handed the young man a paper bag. Legend has it there was $1000 in cash in that bag.
It was an interesting part of my career, quite frankly I couldn't keep up with the lifestyle with a family, but in certain industries, that culture not only exists, but still thrives today.
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My last job, my boss sat me down a week in and gave me carte blanche "do whatever you have to do", I was the lead account exec for the largest account our company dealt with. If I wasn't taking people out to lunch/dinner multiple times a week, then there was a problem. I think the valet at Mastro's knew me by name at one point. I still tried to stay somewhat prudent, and would still ask up front so as not to get bitten in the butt later. 4 Cubs World Series tickets for my clients? I had approval to spend $20k instantly. Suites for concerts/sporting events were a piece of cake to get.
My great point is if I didn't do those things, I would have been fired. In that particular job/industry, everyone was doing the same thing. I had many friends at that particular client that I handled for over 10 years, and one particular story involved a young man at that client was with another vendor (not me) and the young man had gotten thrown out of the strip club they were at. To keep the client happy, the next day, the other vendor took the young man to lunch, and at the end of lunch, he handed the young man a paper bag. Legend has it there was $1000 in cash in that bag.
It was an interesting part of my career, quite frankly I couldn't keep up with the lifestyle with a family, but in certain industries, that culture not only exists, but still thrives today.
Interesting Dish. I never had to work with what I would describe as a sales person. My experience was always with the practicing professional, usually attorneys, accountants, and various service providers like real estate or liquidation professionals. I was always the client. I would almost never accept an invitation from someone who didn't have an existing relationship with us. Heck, I wouldn't even take a 15 minute meeting unless you were referred by a trusted colleague. Frankly, being entertained is mostly a drag and I avoided it as much as possible. An occasional ballgame was great but I avoided the golf course like the plague, mostly because I sucked. But we operated in a pretty high tension/stress environment and so grabbing a bite to eat during a tough day and chatting about your kids was always welcome. I never once asked a service provider for anything and I never had someone offer something I considered unprofessional. That said, I always had the courtside seats for the Miami Heat, all the way back to Wade's rookie year.
I do remember once being the guest of one of my close attorneys who, in turn was the guest of the BK Court appointed Trustee. I recall the Trustee later complaining that I was questioning his billing as 'excessive' on a particular BK case saying 'I took that guy to a Bears playoff game. What's he griping about?' Hey dude, creditors are entitled to that coin and expect you not to freakin' waste it. Sure stuff costs money, but not that much money. Crap like that bothered me.
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Dang. Dish spent more money on one client than my office has in their annual budget. I'm in the wrong field
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I do think the stuff from today matters and shows why there needs to be an overhaul of the amateur system, but I expect this is just a sliver of what's to come. There are far bigger agents than Andy Miller and I suspect there's more to come. I also expect there to be far more that relates to the shoe companies. Hard to believe Brian Bowen, who all things considered wasn't that significant of a recruit, is the only kid out there getting 5-6 figures from a shoe company to go to a school represented by said shoe company.
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My last job, my boss sat me down a week in and gave me carte blanche "do whatever you have to do", I was the lead account exec for the largest account our company dealt with. If I wasn't taking people out to lunch/dinner multiple times a week, then there was a problem. I think the valet at Mastro's knew me by name at one point. I still tried to stay somewhat prudent, and would still ask up front so as not to get bitten in the butt later. 4 Cubs World Series tickets for my clients? I had approval to spend $20k instantly. Suites for concerts/sporting events were a piece of cake to get.
My great point is if I didn't do those things, I would have been fired. In that particular job/industry, everyone was doing the same thing. I had many friends at that particular client that I handled for over 10 years, and one particular story involved a young man at that client was with another vendor (not me) and the young man had gotten thrown out of the strip club they were at. To keep the client happy, the next day, the other vendor took the young man to lunch, and at the end of lunch, he handed the young man a paper bag. Legend has it there was $1000 in cash in that bag.
It was an interesting part of my career, quite frankly I couldn't keep up with the lifestyle with a family, but in certain industries, that culture not only exists, but still thrives today.
My closest experience to that was law firm recruitment. I was lucky enough to have a summer clerkship (aka three-month party) at a big firm in Pittsburgh, and the entertainment was crazy. Two or three-hour lunches at high-end restaurants nearly every day, seats in the firm's box for Pirates games a couple of times a week, happy hours most every day, country club parties, weekday afternoons at a water park. And then they gave us all a big check for all the "work" we did. Yeah, I drafted a few memos and such, but it was pretty apparent they had already decided that we all had jobs after graduation as long as we didn't shtup some partner's wife.
That was back in the early 90s when the legal job market was still pretty good. I hear things are quite a bit tighter now.
By the way, I didn't take the job.
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How much was Wally's scholarship worth?
...about the same as Sam's.
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Keep in mind why a lot of seemingly petty rules and regulations exist.
I don't work for the government and the bulk of what we spend as consultants is on lunches or dinners. Most of the time, we meet with prospective clients in their offices or in conference rooms. The goal is to simply make their lives easier. I have Chicago Bears tickets at my disposal (they are my personal season tickets), but who the heck wants those!
What I can tell you is that if you don't govern gratuities and incentives to some degree, large corporate types and deep pockets folks will have an incredible advantage. Decisions about who to hire or what to buy will be made for reasons other than what they should be made -- competency, fit, lowest cost, best service etc.
The same holds for college basketball (and football, I might add). If you take inducements out of the equation, the theoretical decision should be made based on what is best for the so-called student athlete. A college has a better educational program in what the student athlete seeks to study. Or, the college can get him or her to the professional ranks faster. Or whatever is critical to the student athlete. But when you begin throwing money around, the perceived altruism is clouded by the money. The student becomes secondary to the cash flow and who can most effectively compensate the stakeholders around the student athlete.
I'm not living in the real world, I suspect. But if your first interest is the student athlete , then the NCAA hammers the hell out of anyone on the list. What's more likely to happen is that Duke gets pass and North Carolina -- Charlotte gets the death penalty.
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In the event wojo gets fired this season or next, it appears Sean Miller might be available
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Sean Miller just gave this probe a violent shove into legitimate for the NCAA
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It appears that the “nothing burger” yellers jumped the gun a bit.
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Miller captured on wiretap paying recruit $100K.
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Wasn't Sean Miller someone MU wanted some time ago? Fuzzy memory. Did Miller do this at Xavier before Arizona? Is brother Archie doing same thing? Not going to end well in the desert.
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Wasn't Sean Miller someone MU wanted some time ago? Fuzzy memory. Did Miller do this at Xavier before Arizona? Is brother Archie doing same thing? Not going to end well in the desert.
I doubt there were any recruits worth paying for in the Sean Miller years
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It appears that the “nothing burger” yellers jumped the gun a bit.
Yep. Quickly turning into a something burger.
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Interesting Dish. I never had to work with what I would describe as a sales person. My experience was always with the practicing professional, usually attorneys, accountants, and various service providers like real estate or liquidation professionals. I was always the client. I would almost never accept an invitation from someone who didn't have an existing relationship with us. Heck, I wouldn't even take a 15 minute meeting unless you were referred by a trusted colleague. Frankly, being entertained is mostly a drag and I avoided it as much as possible. An occasional ballgame was great but I avoided the golf course like the plague, mostly because I sucked. But we operated in a pretty high tension/stress environment and so grabbing a bite to eat during a tough day and chatting about your kids was always welcome. I never once asked a service provider for anything and I never had someone offer something I considered unprofessional. That said, I always had the courtside seats for the Miami Heat, all the way back to Wade's rookie year.
I do remember once being the guest of one of my close attorneys who, in turn was the guest of the BK Court appointed Trustee. I recall the Trustee later complaining that I was questioning his billing as 'excessive' on a particular BK case saying 'I took that guy to a Bears playoff game. What's he griping about?' Hey dude, creditors are entitled to that coin and expect you not to freakin' waste it. Sure stuff costs money, but not that much money. Crap like that bothered me.
I find this stuff equally as interesting, different industries and perspectives. I always knew the amount of expenses we committed to this client was crazy, but we had to do it. We weren't a big name company, and the big boy IT companies completely blew us out of the water in what they would spend.
One big name networking company hired "models" to come work for them one day on the sales floor of this client. To be fair, most of my sales competition was fairly attractive young women, but this particular instance was off the charts. It was the only time I recall another vendor getting their hand slapped by the client.
Last quick tidbit, my company was spec'd into a decent size deal once. It was good margin for the client (who was selling it to a school). In addition we spiff'd the product, and we had a contest for a trip to Antigua that we sponsored, that this deal virtually guaranteed the rep would win one of the spots for. I'll never forget the rep came to me right before the deal was to close and said with an ice cold demeanor "what are you going to do for me here? If nothing, I'll never work with you again". I didn't do anything for the rep, and happily never worked with that rep again.
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I'm not well-versed on how all this works from a legal standpoint.
Besides losing his job, could Miller be looking at jail time?
What would be the charge?
If it's not a legal/illegal-type thing, why would the FBI even be involved?
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I'm thinking MU's NCAA possibilities just got better. Some slots about to open up.
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I'm not well-versed on how all this works from a legal standpoint.
Besides losing his job, could Miller be looking at jail time?
What would be the charge?
If it's not a legal/illegal-type thing, why would the FBI even be involved?
That's a big part of this. Really he isn't looking at jail time. He may lose his job, he already made millions and millions of dollars.
What is the disincentive to cheating? You retire early, richer than your wildest dreams? Even then, even Dave Bliss was able to get back into coaching.
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I'm thinking MU's NCAA possibilities just got better. Some slots about to open up.
Why? I asked in the other thread. Are there examples out there of immediate punishment? If this is a legal issue with the feds, that takes time. If it's an NCAA violation, that takes time in committees and such.
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First loosely associated MU connection came out in the emails Yahoo just released this evening concerning former assistant Dwayne Stephens. To be clear, the information is about his time now at Michigan State.
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I don't see the NCAA moving fast enough to sanction any teams in time for the tournament. But I do wonder if some teams might self sanction in an attempt to soften the coming banhammer.
Players getting meals paid for by agents? Could see the NCAA ignoring that. Coach caught on wiretap discussing sending 100K to a recruit? Not even the NCAA can sidestep that one.
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I don't see the NCAA moving fast enough to sanction any teams in time for the tournament. But I do wonder if some teams might self sanction in an attempt to soften the coming banhammer.
Players getting meals paid for by agents? Could see the NCAA ignoring that. Coach caught on wiretap discussing sending 100K to a recruit? Not even the NCAA can sidestep that one.
This is exactly what I'm talking about.
Further, the NCAA is going to have their hands full going through all of this. It isn't just the Miller thing. This will all take a LONG time.
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First loosely associated MU connection came out in the emails Yahoo just released this evening concerning former assistant Dwayne Stephens. To be clear, the information is about his time now at Michigan State.
https://sports.yahoo.com/black-market-diaries-emails-hoops-corruption-case-detail-inner-workings-sports-underbelly-030605930.html
Money to high schoolers from agents. Teams then steer their current players to agent to get the high schooler to commit. There's the connection to the schools.
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https://sports.yahoo.com/black-market-diaries-emails-hoops-corruption-case-detail-inner-workings-sports-underbelly-030605930.html
Money to high schoolers from agents. Teams then steer their current players to agent to get the high schooler to commit. There's the connection to the schools.
Drain the Swamp
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Arizona message boards are already accepting their program is over. It's quite sad.
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This is exactly what I'm talking about.
Further, the NCAA is going to have their hands full going through all of this. It isn't just the Miller thing. This will all take a LONG time.
While I agree with you, if we're still at the beginning, the NCAA might have to do something unprecedented.
I think Arizona fires Miller tomorrow, Ayton is sent home. Probably should just remove themselves from consideration.
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First loosely associated MU connection came out in the emails Yahoo just released this evening concerning former assistant Dwayne Stephens. To be clear, the information is about his time now at Michigan State.
Seems like Crean might be involved in the IU stuff too.
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Seems like Crean might be involved in the IU stuff too.
Too Tanned Tommy is gone. Learned from Izzo?
https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/indiana/2018/02/23/ex-iu-basketball-assistant-chuck-martin-named-latest-yahoo-story-fbis-ncaa-basketball-probe/369543002/
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Stephens was here from 99-03. Does anyone think he gave Joe Chapman cash? No one on those teams would’ve been in high-major recruiting battles. This all seems to be from his time w Izzo.
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While I agree with you, if we're still at the beginning, the NCAA might have to do something unprecedented.
I think Arizona fires Miller tomorrow, Ayton is sent home. Probably should just remove themselves from consideration.
Have to wonder if Arizona just imposes a post season ban on itself immediately. If you're them, why not do it now? You're going to fire your coach any minute, your team is pretty good (not great), try to get out in front of this now rather than later.
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Too Tanned Tommy is gone. Learned from Izzo?
https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/indiana/2018/02/23/ex-iu-basketball-assistant-chuck-martin-named-latest-yahoo-story-fbis-ncaa-basketball-probe/369543002/
Don't worry everyone, Condi is on the case!
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Stephens was here from 99-03. Does anyone think he gave Joe Chapman cash? No one on those teams would’ve been in high-major recruiting battles. This all seems to be from his time w Izzo.
I thought both Scott Merritt and Steve Novak had major programs after them. Wasn't Merritt offered by UK? And I'm pretty sure Novak was considering UNC and Florida.
Not saying that means we did anything wrong, but those seem like high-major recruiting battles.
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Have to wonder if Arizona just imposes a post season ban on itself immediately. If you're them, why not do it now? You're going to fire your coach any minute, your team is pretty good (not great), try to get out in front of this now rather than later.
If MU gets involved to the degree Arizona is, I would hope Schol pulls the team out of everything. Finish your conference games and stay home. No conference tournament either.
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Izzo retires, right? The fall from grace for that guy, rough year.
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If MU gets involved to the degree Arizona is, I would hope Schol pulls the team out of everything. Finish your conference games and stay home. No conference tournament either.
The irony is Buzz took things to the line always (Mayo), but backed off when it went over (Newbill)? JUCOs helped? Really?
Wojo is relatively clean so Scholls no worry.
Crean is squirmy when he left MU...Chicos? Just like your time at Kansas?
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Why? I asked in the other thread. Are there examples out there of immediate punishment? If this is a legal issue with the feds, that takes time. If it's an NCAA violation, that takes time in committees and such.
My thought process is they try to get ahead of it. Schools often attempt self punishment in the hopes that lessens the blow from the NCAA. If several of these schools fire coaches and withdraw consideration from the tournament this year as part of their self imposed punishment, it will open up bids. I believe we can still get in on our own, but that was my thinking.
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I'm not well-versed on how all this works from a legal standpoint.
Besides losing his job, could Miller be looking at jail time?
What would be the charge?
If it's not a legal/illegal-type thing, why would the FBI even be involved?
Tax Fraud?
If it's gonna take down the most powerful people in the country, it can take down some little fish in the sports world.
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Yep. Quickly turning into a something burger.
I don't know why the surprise. There had been guilty pleas, wiretaps that ended up in the Pitino firing. There where a lot of clues that big things were coming. FBI will go for bribery/blackmail, tax evasion, money laundering and they will include interstate commerce interference (they love this one and it is really easy once you use internet, cellphones, social media)
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I don't know why the surprise. There had been guilty pleas, wiretaps that ended up in the Pitino firing. There where a lot of clues that big things were coming. FBI will go for bribery/blackmail, tax evasion, money laundering and they will include interstate commerce interference (they love this one and it is really easy once you use internet, cellphones, social media)
Agreed. I've thought all along this could be pretty big.
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Agreed. I've thought all along this could be pretty big.
People don't see how good the FBI is at following the money that is their specialty. Then they go for the easy kills, tax evasion, interstate commerce fraud or something along those lines (once you use Internet cellphone), bribery/ blackmail.
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Not singling you or anyone else but what the hell has happened to our society? Over the years attorneys and other vendors have done FAR MORE for me than buy me a simple lunch. NEVER ONCE was my determination of which firm I retained for a particular matter influenced in any way by some perceived perk. Never once was it ever expected by them either.
We've done everything from the circus with the entirety of both families in a United Center skybox to courtside seats for the Bulls to Packers/Bears tickets to whatever. All very standard vendor/client stuff with associates I did business with for decades. Lunch? Like I said, what the hell has happened?
One time in my career I certainly exceeded the internal guidelines (with the full blessing of our HR Department and my CEO.) I still remember our CEO telling me to have a great day and that it was a once in a lifetime experience but to be careful and prudent in my decisions about hiring this particular vendor too often going forward. I took his advice to heart and the nature of the professional relationship between our two organizations didn't change. What did I do? I got on a charter plane at 6am and day tripped to the Masters. Freakin' awesome.
Glow I understand where you are coming from, but a lot depends on industry and ethics. As an engineer when I'm a resident engineer Inspecting a project I can't accept anything from concractor would be conflict plus goes against ethics of the Engineering Association (College of Engineers).
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Ed GraneyVerified account
@edgraney
Think about this: 3,000 hours of wire tap-intercepted calls involving college BB coaches. 3K.
This is so far from over, it's ridiculous.
Ed is a journalist for the Las Vegas Review-Journal and co-host of a local radio show here in Vegas. I respect his opinion.
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Why? I asked in the other thread. Are there examples out there of immediate punishment? If this is a legal issue with the feds, that takes time. If it's an NCAA violation, that takes time in committees and such.
Tucson paper calling for Miller ouster immediately and not participation in Pac 12 and NCAA Tournament. That's how bids open up.
http://tucson.com/sports/arizonawildcats/basketball/greg-hansen-arizona-s-program-has-gone-way-out-of/article_55cfad32-540d-5fca-b26e-9af3aacc6c5b.html
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Tucson paper calling for Miller ouster immediately and not participation in Pac 12 and NCAA Tournament. That's how bids open up.
http://tucson.com/sports/arizonawildcats/basketball/greg-hansen-arizona-s-program-has-gone-way-out-of/article_55cfad32-540d-5fca-b26e-9af3aacc6c5b.html
Maybe I wasn't clear earlier.
I was coming at it from an NCAA or FBI punishment perspective. Based on those 2 organizations, I do not believe either would have the time to go through the correct procedures to hand down punishments for this year's NCAA tourney.
Self-punishment is, obviously, completely different.
So, let's assume no universities do anything on their own. Do you believe, in that case, that any bids would open up this year?
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Based on Crean's heritage with Izzo, and two of Crean's assistants at one time working for him at Indiana that are named, I'd say Mr. Crean might have some splain'n to do.
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Maybe I wasn't clear earlier.
I was coming at it from an NCAA or FBI punishment perspective. Based on those 2 organizations, I do not believe either would have the time to go through the correct procedures to hand down punishments for this year's NCAA tourney.
Self-punishment is, obviously, completely different.
So, let's assume no universities do anything on their own. Do you believe, in that case, that any bids would open up this year?
I agree with your view that it will take time to go through the process the NCAA has and bids would not open this year, but my contention is still that bids open up because schools will take action on their own in the form of self punishment this season.
USA curling is keeping me up late. Not sure how much stamina I have left. Good night.
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As bad as the Arizona hoops program looks, their football program has issues too:
Arizona Wildcats football players gang-raped female students and staffers, amended lawsuit claims
http://tucson.com/sports/arizonawildcats/football/arizona-wildcats-football-players-gang-raped-female-students-and-staffers/article_85a85b6c-c54f-5604-8b98-c4a7f9d90bb4.html
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3,000 hours of wire tapping?
I love MU and I feel like our program is pretty clean. But 3,000 makes me nervous.
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People don't see how good the FBI is at following the money that is their specialty. Then they go for the easy kills, tax evasion, interstate commerce fraud or something along those lines (once you use Internet cellphone), bribery/ blackmail.
This is exactly right. They find leverage and they don't play their hand too early. And they don't "trap" you into making a false statement. And theyll repeat that and flip people up and up the chain. Miller is a big fish, but there's lots more to come.
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I wish I could be found guilty of a major violation at work and still be guaranteed over $2 mil a year for the next four years even if I got fired for it.
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Nice noin' ya, Sean. Adios motherfooker, aina?
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When all is said and done I hope we will see fewer recruits following Assistants to new programs.
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When all is said and done I hope we will see fewer recruits following Assistants to new programs.
You mean like Markus?
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Based on Crean's heritage with Izzo, and two of Crean's assistants at one time working for him at Indiana that are named, I'd say Mr. Crean might have some splain'n to do.
You can aks your pal Fred Glass.
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Kollege athletics, like sew many udder thin's, is won ginormous cesspool, hey?
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I wish I could be found guilty of a major violation at work and still be guaranteed over $2 mil a year for the next four years even if I got fired for it.
You'll probably blow almost all of it on lawyers
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This is exactly right. They find leverage and they don't play their hand too early. And they don't "trap" you into making a false statement. And theyll repeat that and flip people up and up the chain. Miller is a big fish, but there's lots more to come.
They may not "trap" you, but they will ask a lot of questions that they already know the answer to.
Federal law includes up to 5 years in prison for lying.
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Sean Miller will not coach tonight against Oregon.
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Sean Miller will not coach tonight against Oregon.
That is pretty big news. Arizona may be trying to be proactive and hope to avoid crippling long term sanctions.
Will Ayton be playing? Otherwise it kind of rings hollow.
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Yes. AZ said Ayton will play tonight.
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That is pretty big news. Arizona may be trying to be proactive and hope to avoid crippling long term sanctions.
Will Ayton be playing? Otherwise it kind of rings hollow.
as I posted in the other thread, this is the way Pitino was cut loose. Miller was effectively fired today. They are negotiating a severance to prevent a lawsuit, Expect his firing to be formalized in a few days.
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They may not "trap" you, but they will ask a lot of questions that they already know the answer to.
Federal law includes up to 5 years in prison.
Exactly. They usually know the answers to most of the questions they ask. As soon as you deny doing something they can prove you did, you’re toast.
“But coach, this email you sent last year says....”
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Somebody F-ed up big time on his contract. Miller gets more $ if he is fired for cause than if his is fired without cause.
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Somebody F-ed up big time on his contract. Miller gets more $ if he is fired for cause than if his is fired without cause.
There's some dispute if people are reading the contract correctly.
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as I posted in the other thread, this is the way Pitino was cut loose. Miller was effectively fired today. They are negotiating a severance to prevent a lawsuit, Expect his firing to be formalized in a few days.
but they just found an email dated 2/23/18 miller sent to himself stating he is so glad they run everything by the book-that should help to ease the pressure-ein'a?
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Miller not travelling back to Arizona with the team. My guess is that he's no longer the coach.
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Sew, he's available four hire, hey?
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Somebody F-ed up big time on his contract. Miller gets more $ if he is fired for cause than if his is fired without cause.
Dunno if that's true, but if it is, the AD has some explaining to do...or some lawyer committed malpractice.
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Sew, he's available four hire, hey?
Well outside of the inevitable show cause?
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Sew, he's available four hire, hey?
So is Pitino
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Sew, he's available four hire, hey?
We should wait, probably more will be available, hey?
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Dunno if that's true, but if it is, the AD has some explaining to do...or some lawyer committed malpractice.
Maybe it reads if fire for cause and exonerated or something like that? But like I said he is going to spend most if not all on lawyers. Federal cases are highly expensive if you go to trial. If not, he'll enter a guilty plea and that won't be great either.
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Buzz takin' down Dook, hey?
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Buzz takin' down Dook, hey?
Dook been crapping pants lately, hey?
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Dook been crapping pants lately, hey?
I mean...if you forget about their 5-game winning streak and defense that went from being ranked in the 70s to top-15 in the past 2 weeks...
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I mean...if you forget about their 5-game winning streak and defense that went from being ranked in the 70s to top-15 in the past 2 weeks...
Yeah but this year losing to BC & SJ I just don't think they are as dominant.
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Yeah but this year losing to BC & SJ I just don't think they are as dominant.
Two weeks ago I would've agreed. Since then they've been playing like the best team in the country. Grayson Allen has suddenly become the player they've been waiting for him to become and Bagley is back and fitting in just fine. They've held 6 straight opponents under 1.00 ppp. Also, while they have 6 losses, 5 are by 5 or fewer points, whereas only 2/24 wins are by that margin (including one OT game). No one in the country is playing better at both ends right now, save maybe Michigan State.
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Two weeks ago I would've agreed. Since then they've been playing like the best team in the country. Grayson Allen has suddenly become the player they've been waiting for him to become and Bagley is back and fitting in just fine. They've held 6 straight opponents under 1.00 ppp. Also, while they have 6 losses, 5 are by 5 or fewer points, whereas only 2/24 wins are by that margin (including one OT game). No one in the country is playing better at both ends right now, save maybe Michigan State.
Just feel they are beatable this year. My lately is wrong, switching between two languages does that lol.
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Buzz takin' down Dook, hey?
Buzz sure can win some big games. Dude getting it done.
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...and remember Sandy Cohen?
By GreenBayPhoenix.com
Continuing its hot shooting from beyond the arc and putting in another total team effort, Green Bay scored its most points against a Division I opponent this season, shooting past Detroit Mercy 107-97 at Calihan Hall in its regular season finale. The Phoenix (12-19, 7-11 HL) buried 14 3-pointers, two days after setting the program record with 15 at Oakland, and received three 20-plus point scoring efforts from a trio of players.
Sandy Cohen III is playing the best basketball of any player in the Horizon League at just the right time, scoring 31 points against the Titans (8-23, 4-14 HL) after netting a career-high 36 points against Oakland on Thursday night. Cohen was a sizzling 10-for-14 from the field and finished two rebounds shy of another double-double, and is now averaging 33.5 PPG in Metro Detroit with Motor City Madness looming next week.
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...and remember Sandy Cohen?
By GreenBayPhoenix.com
Continuing its hot shooting from beyond the arc and putting in another total team effort, Green Bay scored its most points against a Division I opponent this season, shooting past Detroit Mercy 107-97 at Calihan Hall in its regular season finale. The Phoenix (12-19, 7-11 HL) buried 14 3-pointers, two days after setting the program record with 15 at Oakland, and received three 20-plus point scoring efforts from a trio of players.
Sandy Cohen III is playing the best basketball of any player in the Horizon League at just the right time, scoring 31 points against the Titans (8-23, 4-14 HL) after netting a career-high 36 points against Oakland on Thursday night. Cohen was a sizzling 10-for-14 from the field and finished two rebounds shy of another double-double, and is now averaging 33.5 PPG in Metro Detroit with Motor City Madness looming next week.
Happy the chief is finding success as I really liked him. That said, competition matters ... he is putting up numbers against teams, Oakland and Detroit, that we would not even consider as buy teams.
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Happy the chief is finding success as I really liked him. That said, competition matters ... he is putting up numbers against teams, Oakland and Detroit, that we would not even consider as buy teams.
Of course we would. Both are better than Chicago State. Especially Oakland.
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Didn’t Steve Taylor transfer to the same conference Sandy did and put up gigantic numbers his senior season?
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Didn’t Steve Taylor transfer to the same conference Sandy did and put up gigantic numbers his senior season?
No Steve went to the MAC. Cohen is in Horizon.
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Just feel they are beatable this year. My lately is wrong, switching between two languages does that lol.
English and 4never-ese are 2 very unsimilar languages. A'ina.
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English and 4never-ese are 2 very unsimilar languages. A'ina.
Newsie is tri-lingual.
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Somebody F-ed up big time on his contract. Miller gets more $ if he is fired for cause than if his is fired without cause.
They are now saying this is not true about the contract and the timeline that ESPN reported has some holes in it. Could this be why Miller is still around?
https://www.azdesertswarm.com/basketball/2018/2/25/17052526/sean-miller-wont-more-money-fired-with-cause-without-salary-contract-fbi-ayton-return-espn-fake
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I was listening to Titus this morning, and they brought up the point that a lot of the evidence so far is from what is essentially an expense report for one of Andy Miller's guys. When a name is on that report, it could mean that they met with the agent and got their free meal and maybe a little more, or it could just mean that a guy had lunch and called one of the player's parents, since that's a "business lunch" he'll expense it.
I hadn't thought about it that way, but it makes a lot of sense. Some of the perceived NCAA violations might not actually have been violations.
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They are now saying this is not true about the contract and the timeline that ESPN reported has some holes in it. Could this be why Miller is still around?
https://www.azdesertswarm.com/basketball/2018/2/25/17052526/sean-miller-wont-more-money-fired-with-cause-without-salary-contract-fbi-ayton-return-espn-fake
What I find hilarious about the whole "paid more if fired for cause" concept is that if that were indeed true, UA would simply fire him without cause.
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What I find hilarious about the whole "paid more if fired for cause" concept is that if that were indeed true, UA would simply fire him without cause.
Well, that would make for an interesting conversation/litigation:
Miller: "You had cause to fire me, and you know it! I was on tape talking about paying players. If that's not cause, nothing is!"
UofA: "What are you talking about? We had absolutely no cause to fire you. So, you paid players? Who doesn't?! We call that, 'just doing your job.'"
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Well, that would make for an interesting conversation/litigation:
Miller: "You had cause to fire me, and you know it! I was on tape talking about paying players. If that's not cause, nothing is!"
UofA: "What are you talking about? We had absolutely no cause to fire you. So, you paid players? Who doesn't?! We call that, 'just doing your job.'"
"Dammit! Just admit it! You know I am dirty and there is no denying it! On top of it all, I committed dozens of recruiting violations you don't even know about!"
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So what is now everyone's thought about Sean Miller?
Still RIP?
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ESPN is sticking by their story and has actually reverted back to their original timeline.
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Miller is a fookin' dead man walkin', hey?
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heard a Tucson or Phx sports reporter on the Score tonight. he said that Miller hasn't been recruiting since September. Literally no recruiting.
Don't know if the assistants are still doing work or if Miller is just a fookin' dead man walkin'.
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Brandon Williams decommitted. He was the last of the 2018 recruiting class.
Zero new players coming in September.
http://www.espn.com/college-sports/recruiting/basketball/mens/story/_/id/22626040/class-2018-espn-100-point-guard-brandon-williams-decommits-arizona-wildcats
Next will be the massive transfers and Ayton going pro after the season ends.
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Brandon Williams decommitted. He was the last of the 2018 recruiting class.
Zero new players coming in September.
http://www.espn.com/college-sports/recruiting/basketball/mens/story/_/id/22626040/class-2018-espn-100-point-guard-brandon-williams-decommits-arizona-wildcats
Next will be the massive transfers and Ayton going pro after the season ends.
Has the NCAA lifted the one year eligibility penalty for kids transferring out of programs hit with sanctions in the past? Maybe this could open some doors for us for next season given all the.. ahem, issues... being brought to light right now.
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Brandon Williams decommitted. He was the last of the 2018 recruiting class.
Zero new players coming in September.
http://www.espn.com/college-sports/recruiting/basketball/mens/story/_/id/22626040/class-2018-espn-100-point-guard-brandon-williams-decommits-arizona-wildcats
Next will be the massive transfers and Ayton going pro after the season ends.
You also predicted Ayton would be ruled ineligible and Miller would be fired and neither would ever see another game for Arizona. In the meantime, Ayton has played in both games and Miller was back coaching last night. So we’ll see how that massive transfers prediction goes. Maybe you’ll go 1 for 3.
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I'm confused. So Miller is claiming that wasn't him on the tape?
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I'm confused. So Miller is claiming that wasn't him on the tape?
No. He's claming the player discussed wasn't Ayton. And the player discussed ended up committing elsewhere, so he didn't commit any recruiting violations.
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I'm confused. So Miller is claiming that wasn't him on the tape?
Maybe I'm leaning toward the skeptics' side here, but he sure seems to use some very specific language when talking about the recent reports. Maybe very intentionally specific. He doesn't paint with a broad brush and say he did nothing wrong. He doesn't even mention anything about the wire tap. I'm guessing he got caught discussing a no-no, but what was reported is factually incorrect.
When Miller says that he has never paid a player, that could be true. But he could know that Mr. Rich Alum paid the player a la Blue Chips. Technically, Miller is being honest, but in reality, the situation is an NCAA violation, and possibly even a violation of bribery laws. He says a lot about what he himself hasn't done, but that doesn't mean that no one got paid or that no regulations were violated.
My money is on Miller losing his job once the atual wire tap is reviewed by the NCAA and/or the Arizona admins. For now, it sounds like he's going to continue to skate on thin ice, but the full details will be released eventually.
Miller's presser
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2tBSnfV9XM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2tBSnfV9XM)
A great discussion about Miller's presser
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3oA-8UkjQk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3oA-8UkjQk)
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I think Arizona realizes that the entire season is going to be vacated, Miller will be gone, and they will be doing a rebuild.
So they mind as well win the whole damn thing...at least they get that for now. A vacated championship later is still a championship when it occurs.
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You also predicted Ayton would be ruled ineligible and Miller would be fired and neither would ever see another game for Arizona. In the meantime, Ayton has played in both games and Miller was back coaching last night. So we’ll see how that massive transfers prediction goes. Maybe you’ll go 1 for 3.
You actually think this is win for you? You actually think the Board of Regents at AZ has done the right thing?
Becuase correct me if I'm the wrong because I do not recall you arguing Miller is a victim and all this would blow over.
Why are you gleeful that no one has been punished at AZ?
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So what is now everyone's thought about Sean Miller?
Still RIP?
Miller probably threatened them with lawsuits and his departure was going to make the program so toxic until this entire thing blows over, which it is not for a while. So AZ figured they are so F'ed right now anyway they might as well ride out the rest of this season. Probably all getting vacated anyway.
Or, are you in wadesworld camp that FBI tapes of him talking about payment is a bunch of nothing and all of this will die of boredom and go away?
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I'm fully expecting Arizona to go to the Final Four now. Probably be joined by Michigan State, Auburn, and Louisville.
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You actually think this is win for you? You actually think the Board of Regents at AZ has done the right thing?
Becuase correct me if I'm the wrong because I do not recall you arguing Miller is a victim and all this would blow over.
Why are you gleeful that no one has been punished at AZ?
That's not what you were arguing at all. Not even remotely close. So I guess if you want to shift the goalposts that works. I'm not gleeful about anything. You were simply wrong, and in fact I believe you even posted that Ayton would not play another game for Arizona in his career AFTER they had already declared him ELIGIBLE for their next game.
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You actually think this is win for you? You actually think the Board of Regents at AZ has done the right thing?
Becuase correct me if I'm the wrong because I do not recall you arguing Miller is a victim and all this would blow over.
Why are you gleeful that no one has been punished at AZ?
That represents nothing about what Wades said or about your original prognostications
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Miller probably threatened them with lawsuits and his departure was going to make the program so toxic until this entire thing blows over, which it is not for a while. So AZ figured they are so F'ed right now anyway they might as well ride out the rest of this season. Probably all getting vacated anyway.
Or, are you in wadesworld camp that FBI tapes of him talking about payment is a bunch of nothing and all of this will die of boredom and go away?
I was just curious if people's initial thoughts had changed
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That's not what you were arguing at all. Not even remotely close. So I guess if you want to shift the goalposts that works. I'm not gleeful about anything. You were simply wrong, and in fact I believe you even posted that Ayton would not play another game for Arizona in his career AFTER they had already declared him ELIGIBLE for their next game.
Heisys response was.. weird..
But pretty standard. He makes a prediction. It turns out to be wrong. Someone points it out to him. He intentionally misstates/changes the statement made by "someone". Then shifts the goalposts of his original position
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You actually think this is win for you? You actually think the Board of Regents at AZ has done the right thing?
Becuase correct me if I'm the wrong because I do not recall you arguing Miller is a victim and all this would blow over.
Why are you gleeful that no one has been punished at AZ?
Smuggles:
The way I read what wades had said, he simply was happy to see you being wrong (again) after being so smug and positive about an opinion disguised as a "fact."
See, when a guy is so cocksure about every freakin' thing that he actually brags about his smugness, and then when instead of tanking the stock goes from 90 to 180, others get a little kick out of that.
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Miller is just muddin' the da fookin' cesspool stink. He's a deadman walkin' byein' sum tyme, aina?
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Smuggles:
The way I read what wades had said, he simply was happy to see you being wrong (again) after being so smug and positive about an opinion disguised as a "fact."
See, when a guy is so cocksure about every freakin' thing that he actually brags about his smugness, and then when instead of tanking the stock goes from 90 to 180, others get a little kick out of that.
I wrote “Ayton has played his last game” so wades believes the most important part of that is I was wrong? However if I wrote “Ayton SHOULD have played his last game” then all of this goes away and wades probably agrees with me?
That what this is about, small minds correcting writing styles because that is more important than the subject. And that is why people come to this thread, to watch others correct styles and grammar.
Hey Wades, I’m going to revise my last statement.... now that Miller weaseled out of getting fired, and the entire 2018 class has bailed on him, and if the previous post is correct that he has not gone on a recruiting trip since September, And Ayton will go pro, we should expect massive numbers of transfers this spring.”
Feel better now?
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After all this time, are we experiencing a break through? Sure, it's smug and argumentative...but it does exhibit at least a trace of self-awareness.
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Miller is just muddin' the da fookin' cesspool stink. He's a deadman walkin' byein' sum tyme, aina?
deadman walkin' or deadman circling the drain?
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I wrote “Ayton has played his last game” so wades believes the most important part of that is I was wrong? However if I wrote “Ayton SHOULD have played his last game” then all of this goes away and wades probably agrees with me?
That what this is about, small minds correcting writing styles because that is more important than the subject. And that is why people come to this thread, to watch others correct styles and grammar.
Hey Wades, I’m going to revise my last statement.... now that Miller weaseled out of getting fired, and the entire 2018 class has bailed on him, and if the previous post is correct that he has not gone on a recruiting trip since September, And Ayton will go pro, we should expect massive numbers of transfers this spring.”
Feel better now?
What you call "correcting writing styles" is really changing the meaning of what you said. Everyone sees that but you.
Your complete unwillingness to accept that what you said was in any way even partially wrong is what earns you your derision from this board.
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Milla's next stop will be da Association wit a bunch of his squirmy crew, hey?
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Unless something drastic happens before Sunday, can we all agree that it was premature to talk about any 2017/18 punishments?
Whether the NCAA, FBI, or schools self-punishing... none of those happen that quickly
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Kevin Ollie fired.
https://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/uconn-has-fired-kevin-ollie-for-just-cause
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Kevin Ollie fired.
https://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/uconn-has-fired-kevin-ollie-for-just-cause
no program has been hurt more by the most recent conference realignment than UConn. That said, there is some credence the alleged violations and particularly one that is not being talked about by the media outlets.
Unless UConn drops football down to FCS they are stuck in the AAC.
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no program has been hurt more by the most recent conference realignment than UConn. That said, there is some credence the alleged violations and particularly one that is not being talked about by the media outlets.
Unless UConn drops football down to FCS they are stuck in the AAC.
And if those violations are accurate, the BE shouldn't touch them.
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Rumor is there is no Miller conversation on tape.
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Rumor is there is no Miller conversation on tape.
If that rumor is true, ESPN and Yahoo are going to get pummeled. FBI might, too.
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Slick Rick thinks there is a job somewhere in his future...hello
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/rick-pitino-looking-return-coaching-162248946.html
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Sure, Arbys can always use counter help, aina?