College rankings article

[Marcus92]

Interesting article focused on the U.S. News & World Report college rankings:

https://www.politico.com/interactives/2017/top-college-rankings-list-2017-us-news-investigation/

[GGGG]

Not sure about the "helping to elect Donald Trump" part, but that article is spot on in many ways.  Exactly why Marquette should be true to its mission and not chase the rankings.

[B. McBannerson]

There are many people in this country that want a meritocracy, of course that leads to others sarcastically saying "white dudes have it so bad".   Those are the kinds of responses that get a guy like that elected. 

[PorkysButthole]

Not sure about the "helping to elect Donald Trump" part, but that article is spot on in many ways.  Exactly why Marquette should be true to its mission and not chase the rankings.

Porky concurs with the Sultan on the Trump tie in.  Seems like this author has an ax to grind.   This is a well researched article that raises a lot of good points but those points could have been articulated just as easily without ever mentioning the Trump administration.  The notion that US News and the controversy over college rankings in general is what qot Trump elected is laughable. 

It would be nice if us news used more outgoing criteria in their methodology instead of incoming statistics to measure the quality of the universities.  That's why people are going there in the first place so they can succeed in the real world.

[GGGG]

There are many people in this country that want a meritocracy, of course that leads to others sarcastically saying "white dudes have it so bad".   Those are the kinds of responses that get a guy like that elected. 

"If you don't stop pointing out the inherent advantages that I have, I am going to vote for this guy because he says I'm a victim!!!"

[Babybluejeans]

There are many people in this country that want a meritocracy, of course that leads to others sarcastically saying "white dudes have it so bad".   Those are the kinds of responses that get a guy like that elected.

Trump took some peoples' decades-long demand for real meritocracy and spun it into white persecution. The sad part isn't that you're right (and you are right), it's that you appear to wear the swindling as a badge of honor.

[warriorchick]

Trump tie-in aside (and why would we be surprised, seeing as this came from a political website, and that the media has tied Trump to everything including the weather), this was a well thought-out article that explains exactly why the USNWR rankings are garbage in terms of determining which school is best for any particular student.

[Disco Hippie]

Really interesting article.  Thanks for posting!  It will be equally interesting to see where MU lands this year when the rankings come out tomorrow.
As I've stated many times on this board, I'm concerned the new data driven recruiting strategy which no doubt has been a huge success in meeting the enrollment goals and slightly increasing the yield, also pushed the acceptance rate up to 84% last year, which may be the highest of the top 100 National Universities.  I know the academic profile of the incoming class hasn't deteriorated, and might even be stronger than it was a few years ago, but the negative perception of that figure, despite the underlying metrics, is not good.  I support MU's efforts to diversify the socio economic diversity of its student body in keeping with its jesuit mission, but they need to figure out a way to do that without suffering the same fate as GA State, which has been unfairly punished.  For whatver it's worth, I've worked with many GA state grads over the years, some very closely, and they have all been bright capable professionals so clearly that institution is doing exactly what it's supposed to do.   Still, I wholeheartedly reject the notion that rankings don't matter.   They absolutely do and as the article stated rightly or wrongly, the careers of many higher education administrators in the country hang in the balance. 

Hopefully MU can maintain and maybe even increase it's current national ranking, with their current strategy.  I applaud their efforts and if they can, more power to them, but I'm very skeptical they'll be able to maintain their position, with the current enrollment strategy and if we fall into the 90's or god forbid, out of the top 100, I think the administration and the board need to make some significant strategic adjustments.  Hopefully my skepticism is unwarranted and I'm dead wrong.  This is one topic where I'll gladly eat crow if I'm wrong.

It's easy to dismiss rankings and say they don't matter, until they do, and MU should ignore them at their peril.

[4everwarriors]

Perception is reality. Rankin's rule, hey?

[warriorchick]

Really interesting article.  Thanks for posting!  It will be equally interesting to see where MU lands this year when the rankings come out tomorrow.
As I've stated many times on this board, I'm concerned the new data driven recruiting strategy which no doubt has been a huge success in meeting the enrollment goals and slightly increasing the yield, also pushed the acceptance rate up to 84% last year, which may be the highest of the top 100 National Universities.  I know the academic profile of the incoming class hasn't deteriorated, and might even be stronger than it was a few years ago, but the negative perception of that figure, despite the underlying metrics, is not good.  I support MU's efforts to diversify the socio economic diversity of its student body in keeping with its jesuit mission, but they need to figure out a way to do that without suffering the same fate as GA State, which has been unfairly punished.  For whatver it's worth, I've worked with many GA state grads over the years, some very closely, and they have all been bright capable professionals so clearly that institution is doing exactly what it's supposed to do.   Still, I wholeheartedly reject the notion that rankings don't matter.   They absolutely do and as the article stated rightly or wrongly, the careers of many higher education administrators in the country hang in the balance. 

Hopefully MU can maintain and maybe even increase it's current national ranking, with their current strategy.  I applaud their efforts and if they can, more power to them, but I'm very skeptical they'll be able to maintain their position, with the current enrollment strategy and if we fall into the 90's or god forbid, out of the top 100, I think the administration and the board need to make some significant strategic adjustments.  Hopefully my skepticism is unwarranted and I'm dead wrong.  This is one topic where I'll gladly eat crow if I'm wrong.

It's easy to dismiss rankings and say they don't matter, until they do, and MU should ignore them at their peril.

What I believe should happen (and it would take some really big stones to pull off) is to have all of the schools who believe that the USNWR rankings are bullcrap to band together and refuse to participate - they don't disclose any of their statistics to USNWR, discourage their professors from participating in the peer rankings, etc.

That would quickly make those rankings irrelevant.

[jsglow]

Great article.  Here's a factor I had not previously considered.

'— Having a lower acceptance rate, which many colleges have sought to achieve by leaning more on early decision admissions; this hurts lower-income students who apply to more schools in order to compare financial aid packages.'

So Marquette has responded by initiating rolling decisioning as analytics demonstrates that the pool of applicants really doesn't change much from year to year meaning the old model of waiting until all the apps are in and then eyeballing the pool is outdated.  This, and changes with financial aid that allows families to base their financial aid package off of last years numbers (rather than having to wait until February of their HS senior year) enables MU to put out a financial aid offer many months earlier than before.  All this helps families have considerably more time to get their ducks in a row regarding the dreaded college bill and for MU to recruit those families/kids over a much longer window.  I applaud this initiative.

[GGGG]

Really interesting article.  Thanks for posting!  It will be equally interesting to see where MU lands this year when the rankings come out tomorrow.
As I've stated many times on this board, I'm concerned the new data driven recruiting strategy which no doubt has been a huge success in meeting the enrollment goals and slightly increasing the yield, also pushed the acceptance rate up to 84% last year, which may be the highest of the top 100 National Universities.  I know the academic profile of the incoming class hasn't deteriorated, and might even be stronger than it was a few years ago, but the negative perception of that figure, despite the underlying metrics, is not good.  I support MU's efforts to diversify the socio economic diversity of its student body in keeping with its jesuit mission, but they need to figure out a way to do that without suffering the same fate as GA State, which has been unfairly punished.  For whatver it's worth, I've worked with many GA state grads over the years, some very closely, and they have all been bright capable professionals so clearly that institution is doing exactly what it's supposed to do.   Still, I wholeheartedly reject the notion that rankings don't matter.   They absolutely do and as the article stated rightly or wrongly, the careers of many higher education administrators in the country hang in the balance. 

Hopefully MU can maintain and maybe even increase it's current national ranking, with their current strategy.  I applaud their efforts and if they can, more power to them, but I'm very skeptical they'll be able to maintain their position, with the current enrollment strategy and if we fall into the 90's or god forbid, out of the top 100, I think the administration and the board need to make some significant strategic adjustments.  Hopefully my skepticism is unwarranted and I'm dead wrong.  This is one topic where I'll gladly eat crow if I'm wrong.

It's easy to dismiss rankings and say they don't matter, until they do, and MU should ignore them at their peril.

Why does it matter if they fall out of the top 100 if they still have strong enrollment and are fiscally healthy?

This isn't a scoreboard.  The end game isn't the rankings.  It's the education.

[warriorchick]

Why does it matter if they fall out of the top 100 if they still have strong enrollment and are fiscally healthy?

This isn't a scoreboard.  The end game isn't the rankings.  It's the education.

Unfortunately, I don't think you are ever going to get away from rankings as a tool for prospective students to evaluate universities.  Because of this, I believe the best action to take is to push to make the rankings more relevant - like focusing on outcomes rather than inputs.

Which school is better - the school that admits an at-risk kid with decent grades and no money and in four years, produces someone with a successful career, or one that admits a kid whose dad is an alum and a 7-figure donor and manages to get him out the door after six years of partying in the frat house?

[GGGG]

Unfortunately, I don't think you are ever going to get away from rankings as a tool for prospective students to evaluate universities.  Because of this, I believe the best action to take is to push to make the rankings more relevant - like focusing on outcomes rather than inputs.

Which school is better - the school that admits a at-risk kid with decent grades and no money and in four years, produces someone with a successful career, or one that admits a kid whose dad is an alum and a 7-figure donor and manages to get him out the door after six years of partying in the frat house?

Oh yes.  I agree.  I was simply talking about the USN&WR rankings. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Which school is better - the school that admits a at-risk kid with decent grades and no money and in four years, produces someone with a successful career, or one that admits a kid whose dad is an alum and a 7-figure donor and manages to get him out the door after six years of partying in the frat house?

If Marquette is better than I guess its the school that does both? 

[warriorchick]

Oh yes.  I agree.  I was simply talking about the USN&WR rankings.

That's my point.  That is what the rankings should evaluate.

[warriorchick]

If Marquette is better than I guess its the school that does both? 

Absolutely, but the article says that the rankings favor the elite schools that are skewed towards the latter.

Let's be honest - if Harvard or Princeton wanted, they could fill their next freshman class with 100% disadvantaged, but qualified students.  They can also afford to give all of those students full-ride scholarships. Why don't they? Because they don't want to piss off rich alumni?  Their endowments already have more money than they can spend.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Absolutely, but the article says that the rankings favor the elite schools that are skewed towards the latter.

Let's be honest - if Harvard or Princeton wanted, they could fill their next freshman class with 100% disadvantaged, but qualified students.  They can also afford to give all of those students full-ride scholarships. Why don't they? Because they don't want to piss off rich alumni?  Their endowments already have more money than they can spend.

Oh I am on the same page as you and Sultan. I just like poking fun at "kids whose dads are alums and 7-figure donors and manage to get them out the door after six years of partying in the frat house"

[Tugg Speedman]

2018 rankings out today

https://www.usnews.com/info/blogs/press-room/articles/2017-09-12/us-news-releases-2018-best-colleges-rankings

Indiana, MU and Boulder all tied at #90

[4everwarriors]

Rankin's matta grately, ai na?

[Babybluejeans]

2018 rankings out today

https://www.usnews.com/info/blogs/press-room/articles/2017-09-12/us-news-releases-2018-best-colleges-rankings

Indiana, MU and Boulder all tied at #90

Interesting. Not bad company, though 90 sounds low. Is that where we usually are? Does anyone have historical data?

I agree with others that these rankings are not based on useful metrics. But the unfortunate truth is that they matter for enrollment.

EDIT: Did a quick search and discovered we were 65th in 2014 and 86th last year. Quite a drop from 2014.

[GGGG]

I agree with others that these rankings are not based on useful metrics. But the unfortunate truth is that they matter for enrollment.

No they don't.  Maybe 15 years ago that was the case, but student recruiting has become much more targeted and refined since then. 

[Babybluejeans]

No they don't.  Maybe 15 years ago that was the case, but student recruiting has become much more targeted and refined since then.

Hm, 15 years ago is about the time I was looking at colleges. If you're right then I'm happy to hear it because I thought the faculty and educational experience at Marquette was absolutely outstanding - in many instances better than what friends said they experienced at top-tier schools.

[GGGG]

Hm, 15 years ago is about the time I was looking at colleges. If you're right then I'm happy to hear it because I thought the faculty and educational experience at Marquette was absolutely outstanding - in many instances better than what friends said they experienced at top-tier schools.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying.  Rankings, like USN&WR, meant a lot more 15 years ago then they do now.  There has been such a proliferation of rankings, that there is a large segment of students (and their parents) that simply tune them out.

It was also a methodology meant for more of a "mass recruiting" time.  When schools would cast a wide net for students.  Now student recruitment is all about efficiency and targeting.  MU has embraced this completely.  So have many other schools, public and private, large and small.

Look at Marquette's undergraduate admissions webpage.  They never mention rankings.  (I personally think the page is too busy with too many links, but whatever...)

[jsglow]

What's interesting Sultan is that many now view USN&WR as 'fake news' in the sense that folks recognize the artificial manipulation that can take place and that choosing a school ranked 10 spots higher doesn't make it a better place for an individual kid. Fit, fit, fit.  Not ranking, ranking ranking.