College rankings article

[Tugg Speedman]

Interesting. Not bad company, though 90 sounds low. Is that where we usually are? Does anyone have historical data?

I agree with others that these rankings are not based on useful metrics. But the unfortunate truth is that they matter for enrollment.

EDIT: Did a quick search and discovered we were 65th in 2014 and 86th last year. Quite a drop from 2014.

In 2015  US news dropped the category of national liberal arts university and collapsed into the broader category of national University. That's why we fell back 20 spots.

Villanova was always one of the highly rated liberal arts universities that moved into the broader category around 50.

[Billy Hoyle]

Interesting. Not bad company, though 90 sounds low. Is that where we usually are? Does anyone have historical data?

I agree with others that these rankings are not based on useful metrics. But the unfortunate truth is that they matter for enrollment.

EDIT: Did a quick search and discovered we were 65th in 2014 and 86th last year. Quite a drop from 2014.

What is hurting us the most is the acceptance rate of 74%, much higher than it has been. We should be below 60%.

Like it or not these ranking do matter in hiring in the more exclusive areas like finance and engineering.  Many of the elite Silicon Valley and Wall Street firms won't touch a MU grad out of college, regardless of their qualifications, based on college ranking alone. We need to do better. And, a higher academic ranking can pay dividends in hoops recruiting.

[Disco Hippie]

Interesting. Not bad company, though 90 sounds low. Is that where we usually are? Does anyone have historical data?

I agree with others that these rankings are not based on useful metrics. But the unfortunate truth is that they matter for enrollment.

EDIT: Did a quick search and discovered we were 65th in 2014 and 86th last year. Quite a drop from 2014.

Pretty sure we were 75th in 2014, not 65th, and 75 is the highest we've ever been.  I could be wrong but that's my recollection so if my recollection is accurate the drop isn't as drastic as it seems.  As another poster mentioned, the number of institutions that qualify for "National University" status increased by about 35 schools a year or two ago.  Villanova was one of those that moved up to that category so that doesn't help.  Still, some schools managed to advance as much as we dropped despite the increase in schools that qualify for National University status.  IU and CU aren't bad company, but we can and should do better.  We are better!  To say these rankings don't matter is a fool's errand and the further MU drops, the more difficult it will be to attract and retain the same caliber of student they've been accustomed to, but for some reason the current administration has chosen to give the finger to US News and and go in a different direction.  I don't support their current approach and strongly believe MU needs to take these rankings more seriously, but I also don't think MU should solely focus on increasing their ranking and manipulate their stats to the same extent that Northeastern U in Boston did a few years ago either.  It's a balance.  As the Sultan eloquently articulated yesterday, as long as MU meets their enrollment goals, remains fiscally healthy, and continues to churn out productive members of society, then they're doing what a university is supposed to do.

[Herman Cain]

Pretty sure we were 75th in 2014, not 65th, and 75 is the highest we've ever been.  I could be wrong but that's my recollection so if my recollection is accurate the drop isn't as drastic as it seems.  As another poster mentioned, the number of institutions that qualify for "National University" status increased by about 35 schools a year or two ago.  Villanova was one of those that moved up to that category so that doesn't help.  Still, some schools managed to advance as much as we dropped despite the increase in schools that qualify for National University status.  IU and CU aren't bad company, but we can and should do better.  We are better!  To say these rankings don't matter is a fool's errand and the further MU drops, the more difficult it will be to attract and retain the same caliber of student they've been accustomed to, but for some reason the current administration has chosen to give the finger to US News and and go in a different direction.  I don't support their current approach and strongly believe MU needs to take these rankings more seriously, but I also don't think MU should solely focus on increasing their ranking and manipulate their stats to the same extent that Northeastern U in Boston did a few years ago either.  It's a balance.  As the Sultan eloquently articulated yesterday, as long as MU meets their enrollment goals, remains fiscally healthy, and continues to churn out productive members of society, then they're doing what a university is supposed to do.

Falling this far in a few short years is a complete embarrassment. As i have said many times in other threads, the administration is taking MU down a path that is going to lead to the University being Chicago State's North Campus.

I have recruited a number of kids to the school and beat out places like Boston University in the past. However, with them at 37 and us at 90 it makes it significantly harder to make the sale.

The people this abysmal performance hurts the most are the current students looking for jobs. Takes away a lot of the cachet of their degree.

I knew the minute Lovell abandoned the strategic plan to improve the US News ranking we were headed down hill.

The trustees of the University need to step up and advocate for a stronger emphasis on rankings.

I completely disagree with the strategy and direction of the school. It is taking a once proud institution and putting in directly in harms way unnecessarily.

[warriorchick]

Falling this far in a few short years is a complete embarrassment. As i have said many times in other threads, the administration is taking MU down a path that is going to lead to the University being Chicago State's North Campus.

I have recruited a number of kids to the school and beat out places like Boston University in the past. However, with them at 37 and us at 90 it makes it significantly harder to make the sale.

The people this abysmal performance hurts the most are the current students looking for jobs. Takes away a lot of the cachet of their degree.

I knew the minute Lovell abandoned the strategic plan to improve the US News ranking we were headed down hill.

The trustees of the University need to step up and advocate for a stronger emphasis on rankings.

I completely disagree with the strategy and direction of the school. It is taking a once proud institution and putting in directly in harms way unnecessarily.

Honest question, and please answer it:

Why do you care so much about a school that you didn't even attend?

[Herman Cain]

Honest question, and please answer it:

Why do you care so much about a school that you didn't even attend?

I know you have done a lot for the school in a formal way and have applauded you and Mr. Warriorchick for your efforts . You shouldn't make assumptions about people just because they follow paths that are different from yours. The world is full of people who took circuitous routes to the top. I learned along the way that everything is not black and white when it comes to the most successful people, as they see things in a more fluid way .

Marquette had a place in my life and always will. I just have a materially different view of its future trajectory and the means by which it gets there than you. In part that is because I was treated like garbage when I started off in life and had to plow through enormous barriers( Yes I know everyone does in their own way). So my view of what is achievable and aspirational  for MU may be different from yours. 

My view is MU should be moving in the direction of Georgetown and BC. Your view is firmly in the camp that will lodge us south of SLU and Loyola. Who knows maybe your right and I am terribly misguided in my notion. I ate crow on several occasions on this message board , so at least I am willing to eat my own cooking.

[jsglow]

I know you have done a lot for the school in a formal way and have applauded you and Mr. Warriorchick for your efforts . You shouldn't make assumptions about people just because they follow paths that are different from yours. The world is full of people who took circuitous routes to the top. I learned along the way that everything is not black and white when it comes to the most successful people, as they see things in a more fluid way .

Marquette had a place in my life and always will. I just have a materially different view of its future trajectory and the means by which it gets their than you. In part that is because I was treated like garbage when I started off in life and had to plow through enormous barriers( Yes I know everyone does in their own way). So my view of what is achievable and aspirational  for MU may be different from yours. 

My view is MU should be moving in the direction of Georgetown and BC. Your view is firmly in the camp that will lodge us south of SLU and Loyola. Who knows maybe your right and I am terribly misguided in my notion. I ate crow on several occasions on this message board , so at least I am willing to eat my own cooking.

That's over the top!

[muwarrior69]

When I applied to Marquette (1965) and was accepted I was not offered financial aid (I was an only child) even though I was from a typical blue collar family. And though my dad was an electrician and my mom was a factory worker they were still able to save enough to pay my way through MU. I doubt they could afford MU today. I even wonder if my 529 for my grand daughter will be enough in 2029 the way college costs are rising; far exceeding inflation.

I don't think most parents are going to look at rankings; they are going to look at the price tag. I think my grand daughter will attend community college her first two years then go and get her degree at a 4 year school. Most community colleges here in New Jersey have 100 percent credit transfer to Rutgers and Rutgers even allows them to continue taking some upper level courses at the community college, thus essentially cutting the cost of school almost in half; but if she really wanted to go to MU I would not discourage her as I think living away from home can teach you independence and self reliance and we will find the money so she could go. I still love MU and it would be the only school I would consider spending the big bucks.

[GGGG]

When I applied to Marquette (1965) and was accepted I was not offered financial aid (I was an only child) even though I was from a typical blue collar family. And though my dad was an electrician and my mom was a factory worker they were still able to save enough to pay my way through MU. I doubt they could afford MU today. I even wonder if my 529 for my grand daughter will be enough in 2029 the way college costs are rising; far exceeding inflation.

I don't think most parents are going to look at rankings; they are going to look at the price tag. I think my grand daughter will attend community college her first two years then go and get her degree at a 4 year school. Most community colleges here in New Jersey have 100 percent credit transfer to Rutgers and Rutgers even allows them to continue taking some upper level courses at the community college, thus essentially cutting the cost of school almost in half; but if she really wanted to go to MU I would not discourage her as I think living away from home can teach you independence and self reliance and we will find the money so she could go. I still love MU and it would be the only school I would consider spending the big bucks.

Yet four year college enrollment, at public and private universities, keeps growing even though costs rise higher than inflation.

[real chili 83]

I know you have done a lot for the school in a formal way and have applauded you and Mr. Warriorchick for your efforts . You shouldn't make assumptions about people just because they follow paths that are different from yours. The world is full of people who took circuitous routes to the top. I learned along the way that everything is not black and white when it comes to the most successful people, as they see things in a more fluid way .

Marquette had a place in my life and always will. I just have a materially different view of its future trajectory and the means by which it gets their than you. In part that is because I was treated like garbage when I started off in life and had to plow through enormous barriers( Yes I know everyone does in their own way). So my view of what is achievable and aspirational  for MU may be different from yours. 

My view is MU should be moving in the direction of Georgetown and BC. Your view is firmly in the camp that will lodge us south of SLU and Loyola. Who knows maybe your right and I am terribly misguided in my notion. I ate crow on several occasions on this message board , so at least I am willing to eat my own cooking.

Huh? Are you from Hibbing?

[Tugg Speedman]

MU is #90 in the rankings released today.

Here is a selected list of schools behind MU.

#94 Drexel University
#94 Saint Louis University
#97 University of Oklahoma
#103 Auburn University
#103 Illinois Institute of Technology
#103 Loyola University Chicago
#103 University of Oregon
#103 University of South Carolina
#103 University of Tennessee
#110 University of Alabama
#110 University of San Francisco
#110 University of Utah
#115 Arizona State University--Tempe
#115 Iowa State University
#115 Temple University
#115 University of Kansas
#120 The Catholic University of America
#120 DePaul University
#120 Duquesne University
#120 University of Missouri
#124 Colorado State University
#124 Seton Hall University
#124 University of Arizona
#124 University of Dayton
#124 University of Nebraska--Lincoln
#133 Louisiana State University--Baton Rouge
#133 The New School
#133 University of Arkansas
#133 University of Cincinnati
#133 University of Kentucky
#140 George Mason University
#140 New Jersey Institute of Technology
#140 San Diego State University
#140 University of South Florida
#140 Washington State University
#145 Kansas State University
#145 Oregon State University
#145 University of Illinois--Chicago
#145 University of Mississippi
#151 Ohio University
#156 Oklahoma State University
#159 Illinois State University
#159 University of Alabama--Birmingham
#159 University of Maryland--Baltimore County
#165 St. John's University
#165 University of Louisville
#171 Mississippi State University
#171 Virginia Commonwealth University
#176 Kent State University
#176 Texas Tech University
#181 University of Wyoming
#187 Ball State University
#187 Pace University
#187 West Virginia University
#192 University of Houston
#192 University of New Mexico
#192 University of North Dakota
#198 New Mexico State University
#198 North Dakota State University
#198 University of North Carolina--Charlotte
#202 Bowling Green State University
#202 California State University--Fullerton
#202 University of Nevada--Reno
#207 Central Michigan University
#207 Western Michigan University
#216 Southern Illinois University--Carbondale
#216 Utah State University
#223 Georgia State University
#223 University of South Dakota

The following schools are listed as "Ranked Not Published"

Boise State University
Cardinal Stritch University
Cleveland State University
Eastern Michigan University
Georgia Southern University
Indiana State University
Jackson State University
Liberty University
Middle Tennessee State University
National Louis University
Northern Illinois University
North Carolina A&T State University
Northern Arizona University
Old Dominion University
Portland State University
University of Akron
University of Louisiana--Monroe
University of Memphis
University of Nebraska--Omaha
University of Nevada--Las Vegas
University of New Orleans
University of Southern Mississippi
University of South Alabama
University of Texas--San Antonio
University of Wisconsin--Milwaukee

[Tugg Speedman]

MU's US News Ranking History

http://publicuniversityhonors.com/2016/09/18/average-u-s-news-rankings-for-126-universities-2010-1017/

2007 = 81
2008 = 82
2009 = 77
2010 = 84
2011 = 75
2012 = 82
2013 = 83
2014 = 75
2015 = 76
2016 = 86
2017 = 86
2018 = 90

[muwarrior69]

Yet four year college enrollment, at public and private universities, keeps growing even though costs rise higher than inflation.

Is that freshman enrollment or just enrollment?  To day we live in a society where debt is easy to come by, while saving is punished. To me the worst thing you can do to your child is saddle them with a large debt payment right out of school. I wonder how many really think is that degree I just earned worth the ROI.

[Babybluejeans]

I don't think you understand what I'm saying.  Rankings, like USN&WR, meant a lot more 15 years ago then they do now.  There has been such a proliferation of rankings, that there is a large segment of students (and their parents) that simply tune them out.

It was also a methodology meant for more of a "mass recruiting" time.  When schools would cast a wide net for students.  Now student recruitment is all about efficiency and targeting.  MU has embraced this completely.  So have many other schools, public and private, large and small.

Look at Marquette's undergraduate admissions webpage.  They never mention rankings.  (I personally think the page is too busy with too many links, but whatever...)

No, I understood exactly what you were saying. My response simply explained that when my cohorts and I were looking 15 years ago, we did care about rankings, and that I'm glad there's been a shift away from that in favor of tailored marketing because MU provides an excellent opportunity to folks for whom the school fundamentals (size, city, educational environment, etc.) are a good fit. That includes friends who, 15 years ago, chose other schools because of rankings inasmuch as we cared about that stuff.

[GGGG]

Is that freshman enrollment or just enrollment?  To day we live in a society where debt is easy to come by, while saving is punished. To me the worst thing you can do to your child is saddle them with a large debt payment right out of school. I wonder how many really think is that degree I just earned worth the ROI.

I made my kids take out student loans as part of financing their education.  They seem to understand why...

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/02/11/study-income-gap-between-young-college-and-high-school-grads-widens

"Among millennials ages 25 to 32, median annual earnings for full-time working college-degree holders are $17,500 greater than for those with high school diplomas only. That gap steadily widened for each successive generation in the latter half of the 20th century."

[Warrior Code]

I was pretty surprised that "undergraduate academic reputation" is only worth 22.5% of a school's overall score. Because of the way this stuff is marketed, people who just want to look at rankings without knowing the numbers behind them probably put that correlation closer to 100% in their minds. I remember looking at the rankings when I was applying to schools and but don't remember ever moving past that into the specifics.

[warriorchick]

I was pretty surprised that "undergraduate academic reputation" is only worth 22.5% of a school's overall score. Because of the way this stuff is marketed, people who just want to look at rankings without knowing the numbers behind them probably put that correlation closer to 100% in their minds. I remember looking at the rankings when I was applying to schools and but don't remember ever moving past that into the specifics.

Depends on how they measure that.  I think weight it should be lower, if not a non-factor. It is a purely subjective measurement, and may or may not be supported by actual experiences of the folks giving the opinion. 

If you were interviewing a job, and the part of the selection criteria was your reputation, wouldn't you want to know if they only took into consideration the opinions of folks who have actually worked with you in some capacity?  What if they just asked around if anyone had heard of you and got basically, "Yeah, I heard he is a good guy" or "Yeah, I met Warrior Code at an industry function once and he was a drunken jag at the cocktail reception".

[GGGG]

They used to measure it by sending surveys to the presidents of all the colleges and universities in the country.  Not sure if that's still the case.

It is a complete joke. 

[Eldon]

In 2015  US news dropped the category of national liberal arts university and collapsed into the broader category of national University. That's why we fell back 20 spots.

Villanova was always one of the highly rated liberal arts universities that moved into the broader category around 50.

Dude, what?  No

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-liberal-arts-colleges

Some schools switched categories, e.g., Nova, but not all schools.

[Eldon]

They used to measure it by sending surveys to the presidents of all the colleges and universities in the country.  Not sure if that's still the case.

It is a complete joke.

+1

There is a feedback issue there as well.  President X rates school Y highly.  X jumps in rankings.  President of Y ranks school X even higher the next time and so on.  And this feedback issue is completely independent of the fact that many of the admin across schools know each other, especially at the top schools.

[warriorchick]

They used to measure it by sending surveys to the presidents of all the colleges and universities in the country.  Not sure if that's still the case.

It is a complete joke.

And I would not be surprised if there was organized, yet unofficial,  mutual back-scratching agreements in place for this.

[muwarrior69]

I made my kids take out student loans as part of financing their education.  They seem to understand why...

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/02/11/study-income-gap-between-young-college-and-high-school-grads-widens

"Among millennials ages 25 to 32, median annual earnings for full-time working college-degree holders are $17,500 greater than for those with high school diplomas only. That gap steadily widened for each successive generation in the latter half of the 20th century."

I think that is true for an advanced degree which is lumped in that statistic. I am sure the difference between those without a BS/BA and those with is probably not as great. I know some diesel mechanics, plumbers, and HVACs  who are making really good money and people with BA s who are making a lot less than those folks. Don't get me wrong, a college education is important, just make sure it makes you marketable when you start your working career.

[Eldon]

Honest question, and please answer it:

Why do you care so much about a school that you didn't even attend?

In fairness to MUFNY, I know quite a few MUHS alums who did not attend Marquette University, yet still have a particular fondness for it.

[warriorchick]

In fairness to MUFNY, I know quite a few MUHS alums who did not attend Marquette University, yet still have a particular fondness for it.

Do any of them go on a message board with detailed criticisms about everything that they are doing wrong in terms if their long-term academic plans or student admissions? 

[Disco Hippie]

What is hurting us the most is the acceptance rate of 74%, much higher than it has been. We should be below 60%.

Like it or not these ranking do matter in hiring in the more exclusive areas like finance and engineering.  Many of the elite Silicon Valley and Wall Street firms won't touch a MU grad out of college, regardless of their qualifications, based on college ranking alone. We need to do better. And, a higher academic ranking can pay dividends in hoops recruiting.

Thank You Billy!  You speak the truth!  Believe it or not, that 74% figure is outdated and it was actually 84% the most recent year.  Don't believe me?  Just click on the attached link and scroll to page 6 of the PDF.  The stats are right there for everyone to see themselves.

http://mu.edu/oira/documents/MU-CDS-1617-Final.pdf

The university may as well just adopt an open enrollment policy because they're already about as close to it as they can get!  Is that an unfair exaggeration since MU is only recruiting students that meet their criteria and already are highly likely to be accepted in the first place?  Yes absolutely, but it doesn't matter and I'll tell you why.

The average incoming standardized test scores and GPA's of the incoming freshmen class could be the highest they've ever been in the school's history, but if they accepted 84% of everyone who applied, that stat sticks out like a sore thumb and no one pays attention to the underlying metrics behind it.  It's not fair, and administrators are right to say as much, but they're wrong to ignore the impact that having an acceptance rate that high has had on the Marquette brand. 

MU has improved in virtually every other metric US News measures in the last 5 years except the acceptance rate, and despite their improvement in other metrics, the low acceptance rate is the ONLY issue that's diminishing the brand.  There's a direct correlation between our increasing acceptance rate and decreasing ranking that is indisputable.  What is unfathomable to me is why no one in the administration or on the BOT seems to care about this and dismisses as irrelevant out of hand.