Education Thread

[Spotcheck Billy]

Always amazing how when people talk about public sector employees, we always tend to talk about "total compensation," always making sure to include every penny of benefits.

"That 20 year veteran teacher with her masters is compensated $100k/year" sure sounds richer than "$68k/year + benefits."

Well it's been a few years but as I recall that's the only way it's listed, no break down of that comp to just salary.

[mu03eng]

Always amazing how when people talk about public sector employees, we always tend to talk about "total compensation," always making sure to include every penny of benefits.

"That 20 year veteran teacher with her masters is compensated $100k/year" sure sounds richer than "$68k/year + benefits."

Is your argument that public sector employees have worst health benefits than private sector????

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Is your argument that public sector employees have worst health benefits than private sector????

I think his argument was that with public sector employees people usually talk about the total compensation whereas many only talk about salary in private sector jobs.

I don't know how accurate Hilltopper's example is but $68K +benefits for a 20 year teaching veteran with a masters seems like an underpaid employee to me. But to just say $100K people assume you are talking about salary and say that employee is overpaid. (I would argue that a 20 year teaching veteran with a masters deserves 100K in salary but that's another argument).

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Bad teachers should be paid at all. They should be let go, just like other people who are ineffective at their jobs. Unfortunately, unions don't allow this to happen.

The average public school teacher's salary in the US is $50k (as of 2013). That's right about the national average and only requires going to work 9 months of the year. The problem with teachers' salaries is that they're largely based on years of service, earning a Master's degree, completing certain certifications, etc. Very little of it has to do with their actual ability to teach.

When I said bad teacher, I meant below average. I agree that there are terrible teachers who need to be let go who aren't but I was more talking more about teachers who do their jobs, they just aren't stellar at it.

The only going to work 9 months is irrelevant. The trade off for that is mandatory unpaid overtime for the 9 months they are working. Not to mention that in many cases classroom supplies come out of a teacher's personal budget.

While I am sure that there are examples of overpaid undeserving teachers, it is the vast minority. I would categorize most teachers as underpaid.

[CTWarrior]

The only going to work 9 months is irrelevant. The trade off for that is mandatory unpaid overtime for the 9 months they are working. Not to mention that in many cases classroom supplies come out of a teacher's personal budget.

First off their base day is 6.5 hours, so they have to work 1.5 hours "unpaid overtime" just to get to 8 hours/day, and I'd wager the average teacher does not do much more than that.  My wife is a teacher (speech therapist for a poor school district with some 60-80 kids on her caseload every year, which includes writing reports, etc), and an excellent one who wins school district awards.  I, and all the other salaried people I work with, work more hours a day than do any teachers I know, and we do it for 12 months/year. 

I'm not saying teachers are underpaid, just pointing out that pretty much ALL salaried workers work unpaid overtime.  You are right about the school supplies.  My wife sends a good chunk of money every year for classroom materials and stuff she thinks will help her teach the kids.  They have fantastic benefits and insurance, though.  I decline medical insurance at work and we use hers.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

First off their base day is 6.5 hours, so they have to work 1.5 hours "unpaid overtime" just to get to 8 hours/day, and I'd wager the average teacher does not do much more than that.  My wife is a teacher (speech therapist for a poor school district with some 60-80 kids on her caseload every year, which includes writing reports, etc), and an excellent one who wins school district awards.  I, and all the other salaried people I work with, work more hours a day than do any teachers I know, and we do it for 12 months/year. 

I'm not saying teachers are underpaid, just pointing out that pretty much ALL salaried workers work unpaid overtime.  You are right about the school supplies.  My wife sends a good chunk of money every year for classroom materials and stuff she thinks will help her teach the kids.  They have fantastic benefits and insurance, though.  I decline medical insurance at work and we use hers.

Kudos to your wife. I would say her experience is in the minority. Most teachers I know work around 10 hours a day between lesson planning, getting to school early to prepare, grading, communicating with parents, tutoring, and any extra duties that might be mandated for them. I'm sure it varies by geographic location.

I too know many salaried people who work more than our allotted 8 hours day but for the most part those are by choice. They can get their work done in 8 hours a day but choose to work longer in order to get ahead (or catch up because they were slacking off during their 8 hours as is the case with many I know). That usually isn't the case with teachers.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I too know many salaried people who work more than our allotted 8 hours day but for the most part those are by choice. They can get their work done in 8 hours a day but choose to work longer in order to get ahead (or catch up because they were slacking off during their 8 hours as is the case with many I know). That usually isn't the case with teachers.

Teachers work hard but pretending like everyone else doesn't probably is a winning arguement (or factual -- at least in the business world)

[warriorchick]

Kudos to your wife. I would say her experience is in the minority. Most teachers I know work around 10 hours a day between lesson planning, getting to school early to prepare, grading, communicating with parents, tutoring, and any extra duties that might be mandated for them. I'm sure it varies by geographic location.

I too know many salaried people who work more than our allotted 8 hours day but for the most part those are by choice. They can get their work done in 8 hours a day but choose to work longer in order to get ahead (or catch up because they were slacking off during their 8 hours as is the case with many I know). That usually isn't the case with teachers.

Maybe that's the case at your cushy job, but nearly every working professional I know puts in more than 40 hours a week.  The difference between them and teachers is they don't share Facebook memes complaining about how unappreciated they are.

[warriorchick]

Always amazing how when people talk about public sector employees, we always tend to talk about "total compensation," always making sure to include every penny of benefits.

"That 20 year veteran teacher with her masters is compensated $100k/year" sure sounds richer than "$68k/year + benefits."

First of all, any job where you get benefits equal to 50% of your base salary is  a pretty damn good job.  I work at a place that has amazing benefits, and it is closer to 30-35% - and I am the person in the company that calculates that stuff.

Secondly, the salary number I mentioned is only cash money - salary, extra pay for coaching, etc., and any sick and vacation payouts (which would be a one-time thing).  Here is a link to all of the teacher salaries of the school district next to mine - and this is 2012 data, so add at least another 10-15% to these numbers.

http://www.familytaxpayers.org/ftf/ftf_district.php?did=14313&year=2012

[Jockey]

... I'm pretty sure that was her point...

I'm not so sure.

[warriorchick]

I'm not so sure.

Yep.

There is next to no correlation between a public school teacher's pay and their job performance.

[Jockey]

First off their base day is 6.5 hours, so they have to work 1.5 hours "unpaid overtime" just to get to 8 hours/day, and I'd wager the average teacher does not do much more than that.  My wife is a teacher (speech therapist for a poor school district with some 60-80 kids on her caseload every year, which includes writing reports, etc), and an excellent one who wins school district awards.  I, and all the other salaried people I work with, work more hours a day than do any teachers I know, and we do it for 12 months/year. 

Your statements are ridiculous. I know my daughter averages more than 8 hours a day. And she also spends a lot of her own money providing for supplies for students. She also stays late 2 days a week (her own time) to run a creative writing workshop for all interested students. She also spends several hours every Sunday grading papers and preparing lessons.

Maybe that is why I so often see kids run up and hug her when she is out and about. Or maybe it is because when a kid needs to talk about something, she gives her full attention for as long as necessary.

I don't mean this as an insult, but if your wife is only averaging 6.5 hours per day, she is underachieving as a teacher.

[Jockey]

Maybe that's the case at your cushy job, but nearly every working professional I know puts in more than 40 hours a week.  The difference between them and teachers is they don't share Facebook memes complaining about how unappreciated they are.

You really dislike teachers, don't you.

The difference that I see is that "professionals" take to forums like Scoop to complain that others, including TAMU in your opinion, aren't working hard enough. The insinuation, of course, is that you do work extra hard.

[Jockey]

First of all, any job where you get benefits equal to 50% of your base salary is  a pretty damn good job.  I work at a place that has amazing benefits, and it is closer to 30-35% - and I am the person in the company that calculates that stuff.

Secondly, the salary number I mentioned is only cash money - salary, extra pay for coaching, etc., and any sick and vacation payouts (which would be a one-time thing).  Here is a link to all of the teacher salaries of the school district next to mine - and this is 2012 data, so add at least another 10-15% to these numbers.

http://www.familytaxpayers.org/ftf/ftf_district.php?did=14313&year=2012

Curious, isn't it?

Whenever a profession is overpaid, people tend to flock to it. Yet we have a teacher shortage. Hmmm....

Cushy job. 6.5 hrs. a day for 9 months. Huge salary and benefits. Why haven't you jumped on the gravy train?

[warriorchick]

Curious, isn't it?

Whenever a profession is overpaid, people tend to flock to it. Yet we have a teacher shortage. Hmmm....

Cushy job. 6.5 hrs. a day for 9 months. Huge salary and benefits. Why haven't you jumped on the gravy train?

I don't dislike teachers.  I dislike bad teachers. I love good teachers. Good teachers don't get paid enough.  Bad teachers shouldn't be teaching at any pay amount.

And why haven't I jumped on the gravy train?  Because union rules dictate that I would have to start at the very bottom of the pay grade, even if I was teaching accounting classes with a CPA and 30 years of real world experience in the subject.  And if there were job cuts, I would be the first one laid off, even if I was far and away the best teacher.

[rocket surgeon]

Curious, isn't it?

Whenever a profession is overpaid, people tend to flock to it. Yet we have a teacher shortage. Hmmm....

Cushy job. 6.5 hrs. a day for 9 months. Huge salary and benefits. Why haven't you jumped on the gravy train?

teacher shortage isn't due to pay, imho-i wouldn't teach as a profession if you doubled it

[real chili 83]

First off their base day is 6.5 hours, so they have to work 1.5 hours "unpaid overtime" just to get to 8 hours/day, and I'd wager the average teacher does not do much more than that.  My wife is a teacher (speech therapist for a poor school district with some 60-80 kids on her caseload every year, which includes writing reports, etc), and an excellent one who wins school district awards.  I, and all the other salaried people I work with, work more hours a day than do any teachers I know, and we do it for 12 months/year. 

I'm not saying teachers are underpaid, just pointing out that pretty much ALL salaried workers work unpaid overtime.  You are right about the school supplies.  My wife sends a good chunk of money every year for classroom materials and stuff she thinks will help her teach the kids.  They have fantastic benefits and insurance, though.  I decline medical insurance at work and we use hers.

Curious why you call it unpaid overtime when they are paid a salary, not an hourly rate, to accomplish a specific result.

[real chili 83]

  I, and all the other salaried people I work with, work more hours a day than do any teachers I know, and we do it for 12 months/year. 

So, you know that for sure.  All teachers.  And all salaried workers work the hardest.  All of them.  Pretty broad sweep.

[tower912]

In Michigan, teaching program enrollments are off 40%.  For 15 years, teachers have been the whipping boy of politicians.  Traditional pension have been closed to new hires  for over a decade.  401K  set up now.  Funding for education at the state level is a yearly hacky sack with legislators who want better results for free.   
Most people on this board would have to take a significant pay cut if they became a teacher.  And then have to teach.  What age group do you want to spend 38 weeks with, having to teach the whole broad spectrum of humanity.  The smart and the challenged.  The pampered and the hungry.  The children of nasty divorce and the homeless.  The children of addiction.  All while being told that you are the root of all evil in society because you receive an adequate paycheck and may actually get a pension.

Cowboy up.  Sign up for that.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Maybe that's the case at your cushy job, but nearly every working professional I know puts in more than 40 hours a week.  The difference between them and teachers is they don't share Facebook memes complaining about how unappreciated they are.

Respectfully, I don't think you would last a day in my job (I've actually had someone break down in tears and quit on the first day before!). Just like I probably wouldn't a last a day in yours. And I would guess that neither of us would be able to be a teacher for a day without losing our minds! I wouldn't go around throwing stones at other people's professions.

I brought up the mandatory unpaid overtime to counteract the argument about "they only have to work 9 months." My main point is that the work teachers do is undervalued and underpaid. Educating youth is much more important and beneficial to society than many other jobs that are paid higher. I mean, I have friends who are "social media coordinators" who make close to 6 figures after a few years. I feel the same way about police officers, firefighters, our military, and many other professions.

[Pakuni]

Wow ... leave Scoop alone for a few hours and you miss a lot.
My biggest surprise here is that some people are aghast that 1. 20+-year professional 2. with at least one advanced degree 3. who takes on additional assignments after the regular working day and 4. is located in a well-to-do suburb, makes $100K a year.
If we met a lawyer, accountant, doctor, chemist, veterinarian, actuary or engineer with those credentials in that location and he/she made less than six figures, we'd assume that person is bad at their job.
But a well-compensated teacher????




A couple more thoughts:
1. No, it's not impossible to fire a bad teacher.  In fact, before a teacher gets tenure, it's exceedingly easy. Once a teacher gets tenure, it's just time consuming. That's because teachers have the right to due process when it comes to discipline and termination. Just like cops, firefighters, truck driver and many other professions. One downside of that is that those protections are afforded to everyone, good or bad, fairly terminated or not. But let's not pretend that our schools are rife with ne'er do wells and child sex offenders who are protected by unions. It's simply not true.

2. Anyone who claims they know lots of teachers who put in less than 8 hours a day during the school year is either a liar or hangs around the laziest teachers in the country. Not one teacher I know - and I know several pretty well - works that little during the school year. An all of them work on weekends during the school year.

[Pakuni]

Maybe that's the case at your cushy job, but nearly every working professional I know puts in more than 40 hours a week.  The difference between them and teachers is they don't share Facebook memes complaining about how unappreciated they are.

Is that because they instead go on internet message boards to whine about how overpaid teachers are?

Curious ... in regards to another post you made. How in joeychick's utopia are teachers evaluated for pay-for-performance?

[warriorchick]

Is that because they instead go on internet message boards to whine about how overpaid teachers are?

Curious ... in regards to another post you made. How in joeychick's utopia are teachers evaluated for pay-for-performance?

How does it work in the rest of the working world?

And where did I say that all teachers are overpaid?

[Pakuni]

How does it work in the rest of the working world?

That's not an answer.
To answer your question, it's different for different parts of the working world. A cop is evaluated differently than an actuary who is evaluated differently than an administrative assistant who's evaluated differently than a trash collector who's evaluated differently than a nurse.
But that's all irrelevant since we're not talking about cops, actuaries, administrative assistants, trash collectors or nurses.
We're talking about teachers, a unique profession.
Now, again, how does joeychick evaluate a teacher for pay for performance.

And where did I say that all teachers are overpaid?

I don't know. Where did I say you said that?

[warriorchick]

That's not an answer.
To answer your question, it's different for different parts of the working world. A cop is evaluated differently than an actuary who is evaluated differently than an administrative assistant who's evaluated differently than a trash collector who's evaluated differently than a nurse.
But that's all irrelevant since we're not talking about cops, actuaries, administrative assistants, trash collectors or nurses.
We're talking about teachers, a unique profession.
Now, again, how does joeychick evaluate a teacher for pay for performance.
I don't know. Where did I say you said that?

I am not a teacher, but nearly every other profession has figured it out for themselves. However, the teaching profession has decided that they will stick with years of service and education level (as in a masters from University of Phoenix with a 2.0 average counts the same as a Masters summa cum laude from Princeton) as the primary drivers to determine compensation.

And you said that I claimed that "teachers are overpaid".  I said the bad ones were. I wasn't painting with the broad brush you implied I was.