Education Thread

[Jockey]

There are, however, three top unifying characteristic strengths:  Parents, parents, parents.

If Johnny has parents who are engaged and actively installing language and critical thinking software on their children from the day they were born .. the school district they attend will be quite good. 

My wife worked for several years on the kids Psych floor in a hospital. She always said these kids would do so much better and recover quicker if the parents were the ones getting treatment.

[PBRme]

Pakuni

My apologies for offending.  Just a little tired of the defensiveness against anyone thinking differently than the Education Establishment position on education at failing Urban schools. 

1.   To you point about outside viewpoints and "differently" experienced, that's why we have elected school boards. These, in theory and usually in practice, are people from outside the educational establishment - doctors, lawyers, stay-at-home moms, firefighters, marketing managers, etc. - who hold the ultimate authority in setting district policy and hiring the top administrators charged with carrying out that policy. Contrary to your claims, the system is not closed. The people with the most authority come from outside the establishment. Pretty much any law-abiding adult living in the community can run for a school board, and be elected by other stakeholders. And most school districts have numerous other committees, panel, commissions, etc., in which members of the public can serve and help shape policy.

//I’d say School Boards are as effective at affecting change as a Corporate BoD’s and they can be just as chummy.  This may be our fault and in Wisconsin it seems school board elections are never with a major election in November but some low turn out election that no one participates.  Even if the Board takes the responsibility seriously you have a part time School Board taking on an entrenched Bureaucracy.  Also, there are a lot of Federal and State rules imposed that reduce the ability to create change and innovate.  Just like it is our fault when we vote our shares in corporate governance elections, entrenched existing management has a significant advantage because risk is great. 

2. Nobody here said one without teaching experience can't add value. That's a total straw man. Rather, I disagreed with your suggestion that teaching experience is a negative - incestuous is the word you used, to be exact - for principals and administrators. You're entitled to that belief, but I'd venture to guess I'm in the majority when I say I want the person in charge of my kids' school to have some working knowledge.

//I did not say teaching experience was a negative.  My reference was that there is very few other experiences present.  Everyone started as a teacher. Very few have outside experiences so there are very few outside perspectives.  I’ve worked in organizations where the team has individuals from Government, Consulting Firms, Manufacturing Lifers, Service and Distribution, Law, Consumer Product, Education, etc.  I guess diversity is good except in Education.  And you specifically stated that you would stick to the proven method.  If the schools I was in are an example of the “proven method” then the “proven method” is failing and I’d say we agree to disagree.

3. Not forcing anything? Perhaps I misunderstood, but didn't you say kids should go to high school for two years and then decide whether they wanted to go to college  or get a job? How is that not forcing a career choice on a high school sophomore?

//I said I would grant the diploma after Sophomore year.  Not kick anyone out.  But I was referring to the students that have already checked out and are more a hindrance to the educational process.  There needs to be efforts to reengage these kids that have no other prospects.  That is also why I said we need to change child labor laws because employment opportunities are even more limited to those under 18 years old.  There is a personal worth to finding something you are good at and for many of these kids it isn’t school.  I also think it removes the stigma of being labelled a “high school dropout”. 

3A. Saying "a return to the system" is nice and all, but studies show very few kids who leave high school early ever go back, and most of those who do struggle and drop out again before graduating. 

//What do those studies say about those that those that don’t officially drop out but stop participating?   And what do the studies say about the distraction to having 1 or 2 or 6 or more kids who are disruptive, or bored, or just taking up space and time of the teacher from kids who may be trying to learn.  I’m not trying to save everyone, just making the improving the net potential.  We need to find ways of incrementally improving the percentage of kids moving to productive members of society in these schools.

3B. Perhaps a better solution - one that's actually being introduced all over the country and has wide bipartisan support - is the addition of more vocational training and apprenticeships within the high school environment. That way, kids aren't closing off all their options, yet can still pursue a non-college path if that's their preference.

//I’m all for this.  I’m not sure doing this through the high schools is the most effective way.  I’d be inclined to offer to subsidize wages for a Plumbers helper or insert job here (cable installer, Carpenter, Home Aide, etc.).  Maybe even several different occupations to allow kids to try them out.  It has to be hands on and where they see what working people are doing.


4. "Or a nurse to run a hospital, or a window installer to run a construction firm, or a the person putting tires on a car to run an automobile company,"
I'm not sure what your point is here? That a teacher who becomes a superintendent is analogous to a tire installer becoming CEO of GM? If you'd like me to explain how bad that analogy is, I will.

//My point here was that your examples were absurd and I just continued more absurd examples.  Not quite as absurd as people come here from around the world to get an education (because no one is coming here from a First World Country to be educated in an inner city school).  My point was just because you are great and getting 6 year olds to spell or 16 year olds to do geometry, or are a great speech therapist, does not equate to running a school.  Where you are dealing with Facilities, parents, budgets, School Boards, etc.  These are completely different skill sets.  Can some individuals migrate to these positions …. YES.  Should it be a prerequisite?  I guess we will have to disagree again. 

Forgetful
No idea how to respond.  Your opinions are presented as absolutes.  I get it.  Trust the Education establishment …. They got this. 
Cedo maiori

[MU82]

Some silliness, but all in all this has been a very interesting thread.

Carry on ...

[GGGG]

TAMU, c'mon.

Yes, my privilege is having a set of decent, caring parents who believed in education. Both of 'em did. My privilege is having a set of parents who stood with us when they needed to and corrected us when we needed it. My parents made sure we had a roof over our head, food to keep us going and the discipline to take advantage of the God-given abilities we had.

If that's privilege, I plead guilty and openly offer the same to my children who are now in college.

I would note that neither of my children are extremely gifted or impoverished. As a consequence, I'm paying the full rate at an Illinois university. Based on the cost structure of the university, I'm putting about 1.5 students through college for each of my own children. I accept that and hope the 1.5 students end up with degrees and find a way to foster the growth of the State of Illinois.

You're beginning to make us sound like some stuck-up, European kingdom. We're not and if you think we are, take a walk through the commons at Texas A&M. Sure the frat boys and girls are there. But I'll betcha if you look, you'll find some folks from the Valley whose family has given all they could to get their children to A&M. Or, an oil-worker's daughter from Houston. They know what I know ... you can still do anything if you make the effort and put your mind to it.

I don't think you understand exactly what privilege means in this context.  It isn't a yes / no thing.  "I am privileged," or "I am not privileged." 

It's more of a scale.  For instance, we have worked tremendously hard at the where I work to increase the graduation rates of under-represented minority and disadvantaged students to those of majority students.  However, even when you normalize for academic achievement, those rates are consistently 10-15 percentage points lower.  You can give that population more direct support, in terms of scholarships and on-campus jobs, and meet their financial needs at the same level as the majority students and they STILL don't perform as well.

What we found is that it's the little things.  The car that my son used in college to travel to his job broke down and it cost us $500 to repair.  I was able to pay that bill.  Others cannot.  My wife was sick when he was in school and had to miss about six weeks of work.  We figured it out and moved on.  In other scenarios, the college student would be called home to work.

"Privilege" is simply a term to acknowledge that people in society have a better "safety net" than others do.  And that pulling yourself up from your own boot-straps is nowhere as easy as some people portray it.  Kids from certain backgrounds can do almost EVERYTHING right.  They can go to school, work hard, avoid drugs, etc., and through circumstances that are due to no fault of their own, can still be stuck in the same rut that their family has for generations.

And it's getting worse.  Higher education costs more.  But the income gap between those with a degree and those without keeps increasing.  Financial aid has shifted more from grants to loans.  It is so much harder for students who have a setback to keep moving forward than it was 50 years ago.  We plow so many resources into helping these students - scholarships, academic support, emergency funds - because without those resources, it is extremely rare for kids from those backgrounds to succeed.