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Author Topic: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good  (Read 96933 times)

forgetful

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #325 on: July 07, 2017, 12:24:11 PM »
The Institute of Tax and Economic Policy, which is a non-partisan group, cites several studies that estimate that between 50 and 75 percent of illegal immigrants pay federal and state income tax through payroll deductions. That means they are not being paid "under the table".

https://itep.org/wp-content/uploads/immigration2017.pdf

And the job I was talking about wasn't a factory job, but it was a job that literally required no skills that any able-bodied person doesn't possess.  And at the time, $15 an hour was more than 2.5 times the minimum wage.  Add the benefits and it was closer to 4 times the minimum wage.

And if any union wage can be described as "shameful", isn't that on the union, not the employer?

Thank you for this information.  I had no idea it was this high.  I would caution though that it doesn't mean they were not being paid under the table.  Many illegals (I have no idea how many) pay taxes voluntarily, because they are advised that doing so enhances the likelihood of them being granted legal status in the future. 

It means that the employers may pay them under the table, but the illegals (employees) want to stay above board.

Nonetheless, I learned something, thank you.

warriorchick

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #326 on: July 07, 2017, 12:52:46 PM »
It has not been brought up, that I'm aware of, but is a good point.  The percentage of workers being paid minimum wage is near historic lows.  Most are indeed making more than minimum wage. 


That is largely a product of saturation of the labor market and the cost/benefit analysis compared to welfare.  It was close to 15% of the working population back in 1970, below 5% now. 


Honestly, one of the best ways to reduce welfare rolls is to increase minimum wage (imo).

That assumes that no one loses their job because their employer doesn't think that either the job or the employee is worth the higher wage.
Have some patience, FFS.

GooooMarquette

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #327 on: July 07, 2017, 12:56:14 PM »
Which brings up a point -

Has anyone posted anything regarding the trend of the percentage of people working at minimum wage vs. the workforce as a whole?  For example, my kids did not have minimum wage jobs in high school - they had jobs that paid more than the minimum wage.

Also, the tighter the job market, the more employers have to pay - even if it is something that is traditionally a minimum wage job.  When I lived in Boston in the mid-80's, during the so-called "Massachusetts Miracle", I would often see signs posted at McDonald's that said they were paying $7 -$8 an hour.  At the time, Massachusetts Minimum Wage was $3.65.  I had friends back in Milwaukee who were Marquette grads who weren't making that.

I don't know the overall stats, but your story from the 80s is certainly playing out today where I live.  Grocery stores, fast food chains and such are all advertising entry level jobs for $10 or more - well above our current minimum wage of $7.75 in MN.

MU82

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #328 on: July 07, 2017, 01:01:08 PM »
The last couple of pages has yielded a very interesting discussion. Thanks to those participating.

Also thanks to those who would "snark it up" by staying out (including me!).

Keep going, folks. I like learning, seeing various sets of facts and formulating an opinion.
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warriorchick

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #329 on: July 07, 2017, 01:06:38 PM »
Thank you for this information.  I had no idea it was this high.  I would caution though that it doesn't mean they were not being paid under the table.  Many illegals (I have no idea how many) pay taxes voluntarily, because they are advised that doing so enhances the likelihood of them being granted legal status in the future. 

It means that the employers may pay them under the table, but the illegals (employees) want to stay above board.

Nonetheless, I learned something, thank you.

In order to pay taxes, you have to have a social security number.  Very few people would go through the hassle of getting a fake SSN just so they can pay in a third of their money in taxes (and don't forget you have to pay both sides if FICA and Medicare if you are self-employed.  If you are going to go through the risk of letting the government know that you exist by filing a tax return, you might as well get a real job with that fake SSN and work your way up to a position with benefits.

I meant to add that just because someone gets paid under the table, it doesn't mean that they are getting less than the minimum wage.  Just ask anyone who lost their undocumented nanny because someone else offered them more money.  It is a pretty open market for cash workers; everyone knows what the going rate is for the particular job.  Do you really think the guys that hang out in the Home Depot parking lot are going to tile a bathroom or do finish carpentry for $5 an hour? 

Have some patience, FFS.

forgetful

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #330 on: July 07, 2017, 01:20:51 PM »
In order to pay taxes, you have to have a social security number.  Very few people would go through the hassle of getting a fake SSN just so they can pay in a third of their money in taxes (and don't forget you have to pay both sides if FICA and Medicare if you are self-employed.  If you are going to go through the risk of letting the government know that you exist by filing a tax return, you might as well get a real job with that fake SSN and work your way up to a position with benefits.

I meant to add that just because someone gets paid under the table, it doesn't mean that they are getting less than the minimum wage.  Just ask anyone who lost their undocumented nanny because someone else offered them more money.  It is a pretty open market for cash workers; everyone knows what the going rate is for the particular job.  Do you really think the guys that hang out in the Home Depot parking lot are going to tile a bathroom or do finish carpentry for $5 an hour?

Agreed on being paid under the table not necessarily equating to being paid below minimum wage.  How much they are paid largely depends on where in the country it is occurring. 

As far as paying taxes.  One doesn't need a SSN, and 3 million people pay taxes each year without one.

https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/facts-about-individual-tax-identification-number-itin

The other aspect is one doesn't have to go to extremes to get a fake SSN.  They are fairly easy to get and they don't even have to be real numbers, there is zero back checks/communication between the IRS and the employer, so as long as information is provided it counts and taxes get taken out of paychecks...the person just can't get social security ever, or tax returns since they don't actually exist.  There is actually a massive pool of taxes for people that don't exist...fake SSNs.

One may ask, why we simply don't put in rules that crosscheck between employers and the IRS to make sure these things are legit.  The bottom line is that the wealthy elite do not want to decrease access to cheap labor.   

So how about a compromise.  Crackdown on illegal labor, require crosschecks between employers/IRS with heavy fines for violations, and increase the minimum wage.  Any job losses (and its not clear that there would be any...most literature says there would be minimal change in employment) would largely fall on illegal immigrants.  Seems win win, no?

warriorchick

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #331 on: July 07, 2017, 01:27:22 PM »
Agreed on being paid under the table not necessarily equating to being paid below minimum wage.  How much they are paid largely depends on where in the country it is occurring. 

As far as paying taxes.  One doesn't need a SSN, and 3 million people pay taxes each year without one.

https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/facts-about-individual-tax-identification-number-itin

The other aspect is one doesn't have to go to extremes to get a fake SSN.  They are fairly easy to get and they don't even have to be real numbers, there is zero back checks/communication between the IRS and the employer, so as long as information is provided it counts and taxes get taken out of paychecks...the person just can't get social security ever, or tax returns since they don't actually exist.  There is actually a massive pool of taxes for people that don't exist...fake SSNs.

One may ask, why we simply don't put in rules that crosscheck between employers and the IRS to make sure these things are legit.  The bottom line is that the wealthy elite do not want to decrease access to cheap labor.   

So how about a compromise.  Crackdown on illegal labor, require crosschecks between employers/IRS with heavy fines for violations, and increase the minimum wage.  Any job losses (and its not clear that there would be any...most literature says there would be minimal change in employment) would largely fall on illegal immigrants.  Seems win win, no?

I am in total agreement.  If they made employers do electronic verification of Social Security numbers at the time of hire, it would cut way down on illegal immigration.  Currently, you only have to demonstrate that the documentation "appears" to be authentic.  And yes, there are places I have worked where  the bar was set pretty low, including having 3 unrelated people apply for jobs at the same time who have consecutively numbered Social Security cards.  What a crazy coincidence that was!
Have some patience, FFS.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #332 on: July 07, 2017, 01:30:48 PM »
I have an admittedly naive question about automation.

I recognize all of the financial benefits to automating certain jobs.....but at what point do we start to question the morality of it? I know McDonald's could save millions of dollars by firing all of their cashiers and replacing them with ordering kiosks. Is that right? Should we as consumers demand that companies keep those jobs for actual human beings? Should the government intervene by offering incentives for companies who continue to hire human beings for jobs that they could have automated? At some point does the government need to stop certain jobs from being automated? What happens when all the truck drivers, cashiers, uber drivers, administrative assistants, etc all lose their jobs? What do those millions of people do?

All big picture questions I've been wondering about.
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warriorchick

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #333 on: July 07, 2017, 01:37:41 PM »
I have an admittedly naive question about automation.

I recognize all of the financial benefits to automating certain jobs.....but at what point do we start to question the morality of it? I know McDonald's could save millions of dollars by firing all of their cashiers and replacing them with ordering kiosks. Is that right? Should we as consumers demand that companies keep those jobs for actual human beings? Should the government intervene by offering incentives for companies who continue to hire human beings for jobs that they could have automated? At some point does the government need to stop certain jobs from being automated? What happens when all the truck drivers, cashiers, uber drivers, administrative assistants, etc all lose their jobs? What do those millions of people do?

All big picture questions I've been wondering about.

Automation benefits society as a whole, and somehow, the world seems to adapt.

What happened to all of the blacksmiths and buggy whip makers and stable boys and stage coach drivers when cars became popular?
Have some patience, FFS.

mu03eng

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #334 on: July 07, 2017, 01:47:37 PM »
I have an admittedly naive question about automation.

I recognize all of the financial benefits to automating certain jobs.....but at what point do we start to question the morality of it? I know McDonald's could save millions of dollars by firing all of their cashiers and replacing them with ordering kiosks. Is that right? Should we as consumers demand that companies keep those jobs for actual human beings? Should the government intervene by offering incentives for companies who continue to hire human beings for jobs that they could have automated? At some point does the government need to stop certain jobs from being automated? What happens when all the truck drivers, cashiers, uber drivers, administrative assistants, etc all lose their jobs? What do those millions of people do?

All big picture questions I've been wondering about.

Not intending to be flippant or disrespectful, just trying to make a point quickly: Should congress have outlawed the cotton gin, interchangeable parts, or the internal combustion engine?

There is no doubting that the next 5-15 years will result in massive displacement of "traditional" employment models. However, IMO, we shouldn't be trying to retain the traditional model so much as determine what the new model looks like and how we can move people to be value add in the new model.

At a very basic level, we should assume anything that is repetitive or largely repeatable will become automated. So the key is to change the workforce so that they are providing value add on top of repetitive outputs. There is no doubting figuring that out will be very difficult and filled with effort, but I think it's inevitable.

Lastly, one thing to keep in mind, with these changes the cost to produce goods goes down. This means that more and more goods are accessible by lower and lower income earners. This is partially why poor in the US are measurably more wealthy than say poor in Timbucktoo.
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rocket surgeon

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #335 on: July 07, 2017, 02:15:21 PM »
I have an admittedly naive question about automation.

I recognize all of the financial benefits to automating certain jobs.....but at what point do we start to question the morality of it? I know McDonald's could save millions of dollars by firing all of their cashiers and replacing them with ordering kiosks. Is that right? Should we as consumers demand that companies keep those jobs for actual human beings? Should the government intervene by offering incentives for companies who continue to hire human beings for jobs that they could have automated? At some point does the government need to stop certain jobs from being automated? What happens when all the truck drivers, cashiers, uber drivers, administrative assistants, etc all lose their jobs? What do those millions of people do?

All big picture questions I've been wondering about.

well there are many that like to argue we must be more like europe in many ways.  for whatever reason, i'm not quite sure, but ya gotta be careful what ya wish for-

https://www.cnet.com/news/mcdonalds-hires-7000-touch-screen-cashiers/

and this is just macdonalds
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Jay Bee

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #336 on: July 07, 2017, 03:40:58 PM »
I have an admittedly naive question about automation.

I recognize all of the financial benefits to automating certain jobs.....but at what point do we start to question the morality of it? I know McDonald's could save millions of dollars by firing all of their cashiers and replacing them with ordering kiosks. Is that right?

Geez

Not only is it right, but it would be wrong not to.
Thanks for ruining summer, Canada.

forgetful

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #337 on: July 07, 2017, 03:47:04 PM »
I have an admittedly naive question about automation.

I recognize all of the financial benefits to automating certain jobs.....but at what point do we start to question the morality of it? I know McDonald's could save millions of dollars by firing all of their cashiers and replacing them with ordering kiosks. Is that right? Should we as consumers demand that companies keep those jobs for actual human beings? Should the government intervene by offering incentives for companies who continue to hire human beings for jobs that they could have automated? At some point does the government need to stop certain jobs from being automated? What happens when all the truck drivers, cashiers, uber drivers, administrative assistants, etc all lose their jobs? What do those millions of people do?

All big picture questions I've been wondering about.

In 1965 a senate committee was predicting that due to rising productivity, American's would be working 20-hour work weeks and getting 7-weeks of vacation a year.  Business found a solution to the problem.  Pay them less and keep the profits for themselves. 

Instead of this taking place, more people now work (women filling the workforce), we work longer hours, we are immensely more productive and we make less and are less happy.  During the 70's and 80's and continuing until today, wages didn't keep up with productivity gains.  Instead people worked harder for less and profits went to the top 1%. 

Now we are getting predictions like this again, that automation will make most people unemployed.  I assure you, they won't let the population sit idle an actually have time to institute change, business will find a way to use labor and make more profit for the top 1%.

rocket surgeon

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #338 on: July 07, 2017, 04:04:17 PM »
people should be tripping over each other to get the training/education to fix these automated machines.  yes, i realize they are already out there, but the more automation we institute, the more we will need.  i consatntly tell my IT guy, they are worth their weight in gold...the good ones who can communicate and ya don't feel like you are getting ripped off.  kinda like the cabbie taking the long way
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jesmu84

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #339 on: July 07, 2017, 04:48:37 PM »
people should be tripping over each other to get the training/education to fix these automated machines.  yes, i realize they are already out there, but the more automation we institute, the more we will need.  i consatntly tell my IT guy, they are worth their weight in gold...the good ones who can communicate and ya don't feel like you are getting ripped off.  kinda like the cabbie taking the long way

While you make a good point about fixing the machines. The math still doesn't work out in favor of the human labor force. 1 fast food joint has 4 "cashiers". They could hire 1 full-time tech to work on them as needed. What about all the other human workers that have been displaced?

jesmu84

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #340 on: July 07, 2017, 04:49:28 PM »
Here's the thing: Not every worker needs a living wage. I'm talking about high school students, retirees, and 2nd income earners like a stay at home mom or dad.  These workers are looking for a little extra cash, a little work experience for HS students, and sometimes in the case of the retiree or stay at home parent, something to do.

There main source of income is parents, retirement savings, or a financially successful spouse.  So there is a market for workers that do not need a living wage.

I view minimum wage as a starting point to make sure companies aren't paying slave wages.  Plus, cost of living varies greatly from state to state and even regionally within states.  So the federal minimum wage is yet again a starting point. States, counties, and cities can all tailor their minimum wage to the cost of living.

But again, the bigger issue is getting more money into the middle earners.  The median household income in the US went down 2.5% from 1999 to 2015.  Cumulative inflation during that time was 42%.  So how do we get the median household income to go up? My opinion is that raising the median household income will spur the economy by getting more money into the hands of consumers.

That will hopefully cause a domino effect where consumers spend a little more, prices can rise a little bit, and thus wages can increase for the bottom 20%.  Right now our economy has depressed wages, which leads to pressure to keep the costs of goods and services low.  The end result is a widening wealth gap.  I don't think that is ultimately sustrightble.

I'm not sure what the solution is.  But that is the problem more so than minimum wage.  If the middle class is strong, money will trickle in both directions to the upper and lower class.

Bullcrap. Trickle down economics works. Cut taxes for the wealthy and watch everyone prosper.

MU82

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #341 on: July 07, 2017, 05:02:43 PM »
Here's a question: If all of the fast-food restaurants go to automation, putting tens of millions of people out of work, who will eat at the restaurants? Rich people ain't going to those places, and those of lesser means won't be able to afford it.

One reason Wal-Mart gave for finally raising its minimum wage company-wide was that its accountants pointed out that Wal-Mart employees couldn't afford to shop at Wal-Mart.
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Jay Bee

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #342 on: July 07, 2017, 06:16:42 PM »
Here's a question: If all of the fast-food restaurants go to automation, putting tens of millions of people out of work, who will eat at the restaurants? Rich people ain't going to those places, and those of lesser means won't be able to afford it.

Plenty of "rich people" (your definition is ____?) eat fast food
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Tugg Speedman

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #343 on: July 07, 2017, 06:25:23 PM »
Here's a question: If all of the fast-food restaurants go to automation, putting tens of millions of people out of work, who will eat at the restaurants? Rich people ain't going to those places, and those of lesser means won't be able to afford it.

One reason Wal-Mart gave for finally raising its minimum wage company-wide was that its accountants pointed out that Wal-Mart employees couldn't afford to shop at Wal-Mart.

80% of the American Population eat fast food at least once a month.
(That's over 200 million people a month)

http://www.gallup.com/poll/163868/fast-food-major-part-diet.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=syndication&utm_content=morelink&utm_term=USA%20-%20Wellbeing



That means if you automate all the fast food restaurants, they can lower their prices (they have to, the competition is so great it demands it) and the living standard of the entire country goes up.


MU82

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #344 on: July 07, 2017, 07:00:33 PM »
80% of the American Population eat fast food at least once a month.
(That's over 200 million people a month)

http://www.gallup.com/poll/163868/fast-food-major-part-diet.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=syndication&utm_content=morelink&utm_term=USA%20-%20Wellbeing



That means if you automate all the fast food restaurants, they can lower their prices (they have to, the competition is so great it demands it) and the living standard of the entire country goes up.

Looking at that poll, it looks like the majority of respondents said they AT MOST eat at fast-food restaurants once or twice per month.

During the Great Recession, McDonald's was one of the few stocks that didn't get killed because its business increased nicely, suggesting that those who used to eat at higher-priced places "downsized" to Mickey D's.

I probably was wrong saying "rich folks" don't go to fast-food places because, as JB alluded to, it's all how one defines "rich." I do think that, long term, there could be a problem if we have millions upon millions of people who used to grill burgers and man registers unemployed. But I don't know. I don't pretend to have all the answers.

As somebody else said, our society has had an ability to survive automation and evolve over the centuries. I mean, I haven't used a blacksmith in at least a few months!

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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #345 on: July 07, 2017, 07:02:42 PM »
My question was more philosophical in nature than serious.  I'm a huge fan of dystopian novels and about half of them start with too many jobs being automized
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warriorchick

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #346 on: July 07, 2017, 07:08:06 PM »
While you make a good point about fixing the machines. The math still doesn't work out in favor of the human labor force. 1 fast food joint has 4 "cashiers". They could hire 1 full-time tech to work on them as needed. What about all the other human workers that have been displaced?

I found this article to be very informative and thought-provoking.  It's from Cracked, so there is humor and inappropriate language interspersed, but some excellent points are made:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/computers-wont-take-your-jobs-theyre-creating-new-ones/

Thanks to the internet, we've all got an embarrassment of riches in terms of stuff to panic about. Between ISIS, North Korea, our orange-faced president, and the grim nightmare specter of Hillary Clinton's emails, everyone has something to worry over. And one of the most common panic buttons on rotation across the headlines is that ROBOTS ARE GONNA TAKE ALL OF OUR JOBS! JESUS TITBALLS, PANIC!

But is the situation really this dire? I took a deep dive into the evidence and sat down with some experts to try to figure that out. Here's what I learned ...

#5. Historically, Computers Create More Jobs Than They Kill

When you spend a lot of time reading articles on the upcoming automation jobpocalypse, you'll see one statistic cited above all others:



And that absolutely seems worth panicking about. Unemployment crept above 20 percent during the worst part of the Great Depression. 47 percent unemployment would spell the end of our civilization. If these headlines are correct, we're 20 years away from unimaginable change. But those headlines -- and the study contained in them -- don't tell the whole story.

First off, those researchers are only claiming that 47 percent of all current jobs will be automatable within 20 years. But that automation doesn't happen in a vacuum. For example, the authors of that study make a point about how computer algorithms are increasingly doing the work of lawyers and patent attorneys:


But rather than leading to a vast unemployment crisis for paralegals, the field is expected to grow by 8 percent through 2024. Computers are capable of doing a lot of the work paralegals used to do, which means their employers are able to offer more services, for less, to more customers than ever before. For the foreseeable future, paralegals will get to keep paralegalin'.

"What happens when you automate something? You make it cheaper, you make it better-quality, and that drives up consumer demand." That's Professor Jim Bessen, a lecturer at Boston University who studies the "economics of innovation." He authored a comprehensive study on how automation impacts jobs. He argues that computers tend to increase employment in most fields, and I am almost 75 percent certain he's not an agent of Skynet. Professor Bessen doesn't think much of the 47 percent study: "It's just complete bullcrap. They identified jobs like accountant and bank loan officer. There's just too many things that humans do."

I reached out to the authors of that study for commentary, and they never got back to me. (Possibly because Professor Bessen terminated them to aid the rise of the machines, possibly because they thought Cracked was a much more hardcore version of High Times.) But Professor Bessen was able to make some compelling points about how automation's impacted employment over the last hundred-ish years. He pointed out that the impact of machines on the tailoring field wasn't exactly what you'd expect:

"Typically at the end of the 19th century, the average person would have just one set of clothing," but as machines made clothing cheaper to make, "the amount of cloth that was consumed per capita went up 10 times, so that offset the amount of labor required per yard of cloth." It turns out that "for the first 100 years of textile automation, automation was accompanied by growing employment."

You see that in a lot of fields. When ATMs were first introduced, people thought they'd put thousands of bank tellers out of jobs. Here's what actually happened to the employment rate of bank tellers:


It turns out that an entire job field being wiped out by machines is actually a pretty rare occurrence: "I looked at the number of occupations in 1950 and how many disappeared, and of the ones that disappeared, how many could be put down to automation. And it turns out there's only one. The one occupation that can be attributed to largely disappearing because of automation? Elevator operator."

"But Cracked, you machine-fondling hobgoblins," you may ask, "what about self-driving cars? What about all those manufacturing jobs that don't exist anymore? My uncle lost his job to a machine you robo-sympathetic race traitors!" First off, Jesus, chill the hell out. Second ...

#4. The Risk Isn't Unemployment -- It's Inequality

The most common criticism of Professor Bessen's ATM point is that while teller jobs experienced a boom, that boom has started to level off and decline. And Professor Bessen freely pointed out that the boom in textile jobs didn't last: "In [the] 1940s, 1950s, we had almost half a million production workers in the textile industry, and today it's under 20,000. There's been a huge drop in jobs in the textile industry... some of that is due to globalization, but most of it, actually 3/4ths of it, is automated."

Oooooooooooooooh crap, everyone! Get back on the panic bus! The machines ARE going to take all of our jobs. Internet, you can resume freaking out.



Only, maybe don't freak out. The gradual elimination of certain jobs by machine still doesn't mean an unemployment crisis. In 1950, the unemployment rate was 5.3 percent. And our current unemployment rate, after decades of automation ... is 4.3 percent. When you look at, say, the employment rate for manufacturing jobs since 1960, it seems like a disaster:


Global Macro Monitor

And for people who loved their manufacturing jobs, it was. But we didn't wind up living in a jobless hellscape where welders were reduced to sucking robotic cocks to pay their rent. Here's Professor Bessen again: "What you find is in manufacturing industries, computer automation still does tend to reduce jobs, but in service, healthcare, and finance, it's associated with growing employment rather than declining."

Employment in the service industry has ballooned from 13 percent to 30 percent in the last 60 years. And that brings us to one of the actual, real worries of automation: Machines aren't going to leave us unemployed, but they might force a lot of us to work craptier, lower-paying gigs. U.S. income inequality is at the highest level it's been since 1928.

"Obviously, the unemployment level is pretty low right now," says Bessen. "It doesn't seem like machines are putting a lot of people out of work, and that's what a deeper dive into the data said. But it doesn't mean everything's rosy and there's nothing to worry about. There are a lot of people who are losing jobs, but more jobs are being created in other occupations and other places, and it's a difficult transition."

The actual quasipocalyptic danger of automation isn't machines taking all the jobs; it's that machines turn middle-income people into lower-income people. They also create a ton of good jobs. Pretty much every article you read on the Internet is written by someone who wouldn't have a job if not for computers. But it's not like someone who's manned a drill press at a Ford plant for 15 years can hop right into being a social media guru or an internet comedy writer. Retraining takes time and money, and someone with kids and a mortgage probably can't afford to go grab another degree when a robot takes their job.

So we do have reasons to be worried about automation. But there's also a reason to be excited, because ...

#3. Computers Are Making Work More Satisfying For A Lot of People

Data gathered from workers in the UK and the U.S. indicates that job satisfaction is on the rise. More people are more content in their careers today. Some of that happiness may be that many folks are just happy to have a job. But it does appear that a lot of people find their jobs more satisfying than they did a decade or two ago.

One reason for this might be that since computers can handle so many rote tasks, the jobs left for people are more creative and thus more fulfilling. This lines up with Professor Bessen's expectations for the future: "You're going to see more creative occupations. We've been seeing that. One of the examples I look at is typesetters and graphic designers. Desktop publishing came along, and it eliminated most of the jobs of typesetters and compositors, but it created many more jobs ... Stuff that would've been done on the typewriter 30 or 40 years ago is much more highly designed. There's much more creative content. You're also seeing growth in jobs where interpersonal skills are important. Independent bookstores have actually been growing, and Amazon itself has actually been growing into having brick-and-mortar bookstores."

Some of the apocalyptic predictions about automation are absolutely true. For one thing, self-driving cars are going to wipe out millions of jobs. Even Professor Bessen expects to see that happen in the next decade or two. It's going to suck for a lot of people, probably a lot of people you know. A good 20 percent of you are reading this in between Ubering people around your city. Computers absolutely give y'all something to fear.

But remember how the service industry blossomed like a cash-filled flower as manufacturing jobs collapsed? Well, we're currently seeing another industry blossom thanks to more and better computers. And yes, I realize the flower analogy didn't add anything to that paragraph. Let's just all move past it and talk about how the entertainment industry is in the middle of exploding. It grew 66 percent from 1998 to 2010.

More of the workforce makes a living off of creating content right now than they have at any other point in human history. Spending on entertainment hit a high point, per family, in 2008. It declined slightly as the recession set in, but over the last few years it's steadily crept back up, and in 2016, we spent more on entertainment than we had in 2008. Digital media has caused a huge surge in entertainment jobs -- and not just in Los Angeles, but as far afield as a whole bunch of African nations.

The fact that hundreds of thousands of people are making money off of YouTube, Patreon, Indiegogo, and Kickstarter doesn't negate the fact that hundreds of thousands more lost their jobs thanks to computers. The Venn diagram of "unemployed smelters" and "YouTube celebrities" probably doesn't overlap much. So the big question we're all going to have to answer in the next 20 years isn't "How do we deal with robot-created unemployment?" It's "How do we retrain people to do all these new jobs before they go bankrupt and wind up eating the rich?"

#2. We're Going To Need To Give Poor People Free Money

This entry is not about universal basic income. A lot of people have written about how universal basic income, a permanent minimum wage for everyone who can't work, will be necessary once the machines take over.


Futurism/NPR

Finland is currently in the middle of a study on how well universal basic income actually works, as are cities in California, India, Italy, Canada, and beyond. It'll be a few years before we have a lot of scientific data on exactly how well it works. In the meantime, the United States also has millions of people who hate paying for public schools. People who oppose a $15 minimum wage probably won't get on board the "free money for everyone" train.

But there's an option in between basic income and letting millions of people go homeless when we finally teach robots how to drive. A charity called GiveDirectly is currently experimenting with what they call "unconditional cash transfers." Basically, they give limited amounts of money to impoverished people -- the equivalent of a year or two's wages -- in the hope that they'll invest this money in their future.


GiveDirectly

Your inner Republican might assume that giving poor people a sudden pile of cash would primarily benefit the methamphetamine market. But GiveDirectly has actual data on how their cash transfers work. I talked to Johannes Haushofer, an assistant professor at Princeton and an economist for MIT's Poverty Action Lab. He conducted a study on GiveDirectly's cash transfers in Kenya. From 2011 to 2013, they gave randomly selected households roughly two year's worth of expenses. Everything was randomized. In some households, the wife got the money; in other households, the husband. Some households received lump sum payments, and others received monthly payments.

The first thing they noticed is that no one went right out and spent their big pile of cash on alcohol and flat-screen TVs. They spent it on new roofs for their homes, investing in their own businesses, educating themselves and their families, and, of course, buying enough food to not starve to death. The families who received the payments showed long-term benefits: They were less stressed, better educated, healthier, and had more "durable" assets (livestock, a nice home) than they did before the study.

Another cash transfer study, conducted in Bangladesh, showed a 38 percent increase in earnings for extremely poor people who received piles o' money. This study of 10,000 poor people in six countries also found that poor people tend to invest the money they get in cash transfers into their futures, rather than additional six-packs. We don't know yet if universal basic income would work, but there's actually reason to believe that temporary cash transfers might be a better solution to the problems of automation. Haushofer says: "The labor supply response of a basic income grant could be different from a cash transfer. You might imagine that if you just get money once, you know that next year you're on your own again, it doesn't make sense to reduce your labor supply. But when you're good for the rest of your life, you might think differently."

I should also note that Haushofer is still bullish on the idea of basic income: "There are surveys on how people would respond to basic income, and those are generally pretty optimistic in terms of whether people would stop working ... so I don't want to paint it black. I think it's a great idea and should be tried, and I'm optimistic that it'll work well." But the point is that, right now, we know cash transfers can help lift people out of a poverty spiral.

It may be that most Americans will never accept the idea of paying for someone else to get a permanent meal ticket. But you could sell cash transfers as basically paying for people who've lost their jobs to learn how to do new ones. The payment is a stopgap, so they can keep contributing to the economy and not die in the streets while they learn how to go from, say, mining coal to coding. Professor Bessen agreed: "The problem with a permanent basic income may well be that it discourages people from making the effort to retrain. So temporary support seems to be much more suited to the real problem" -- that is, the problem caused by computers.

If we're willing to be smart about it, automation doesn't need to be a humanitarian disaster. And there's at least one way in which it might make the world an objectively better place ...

#1. Automation Might Benefit The Ladies Most Of All

Without getting too political, we can all agree that the last six months haven't been exactly the most inspiring days in the long battle for women's equality. There's a reason The Handmaid's Tale is seen as so relevant right now, and it's got nothing to do with the fact that bonnets are making a comeback.

Barring the establishment of an anti-women theocratic murder state, women are actually poised to benefit the most from automation. This Atlantic video with Jerry Kaplan of Stanford and Saadia Zahidi of the World Economic Forum makes the case that "automation could place a premium on the type of work that women tend to be good at, like person-to-person interaction, reading human emotion, collaboration, and creativity."

When I brought this up to Professor Bessen, he cautioned that "the evidence is weak," but "it also seems quite plausible". He pointed out two findings from his own research:

"Young women were often key in adopting new technologies. For example, it was mainly young women who worked with the new textile technologies in the Industrial Revolution, and also when these industries industrialized in Japan and China. Second, that pattern appears to be true today for information technology; women are more likely to use computers at work, all else equal."

But wait, there's more! In his research on cash transfers, Professor Haushofer also found a surprising benefit for women. The cash transfers lead to a drop in domestic violence, both in the households that received the money and in their neighbors. We don't exactly know why yet. My theory is that toxic radiation bestowed sentience on a pile of cash, which now fights spousal abuse as the Green Knight. Professor Haushofer noted another possibility:

"It could be that, in the treatment households, the husband stops beating his wife for whatever reason, either because she feels empowered now or because he's less stressed and less aggressive. The wife might then share this with her friends, it could echo around the village and become a new norm that it's not OK for the husband to beat his wife. That's one possible channel, but we don't have good evidence yet as to whether that's true or not."

Other research into cash transfers around the world has made similar observations. And this study from the EU noted that unemployment among men led to a decrease in domestic violence, while unemployment among women caused it to increase. There's compelling evidence to suggest that when people have more money, they're less vulnerable to abusive pretty boys. This, uh, probably isn't that surprising to anyone reading this from Ferguson or South Baltimore. But it is one more reason to look to the coming robocalypse with excitement, rather than dread.

The Age of Machines is upon us, and it might be pretty sweet.
Have some patience, FFS.

forgetful

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #347 on: July 07, 2017, 07:24:53 PM »
A lot of the arguments saying that "automation" will not affect jobs is based on the fact that innovation creates more jobs. 

In this case though, why wouldn't the new jobs also be performed by automated machines?

There is no reason to assume that the new jobs would require human labor. 


TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #348 on: July 07, 2017, 07:42:45 PM »
Good stuff chick.  Really enjoyed the article. The stuff on basic income was interesting....and it even connected back to the original topic! I love the idea in theory but can't imagine something like that ever being passed in the US. The studies they reference seem to contradict the narrative that handouts lead to lazy poor.
TAMU

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Tugg Speedman

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #349 on: July 07, 2017, 08:33:43 PM »
A lot of the arguments saying that "automation" will not affect jobs is based on the fact that innovation creates more jobs. 

In this case though, why wouldn't the new jobs also be performed by automated machines?

There is no reason to assume that the new jobs would require human labor.

I agree, at the end of the day, technology and automation will create more jobs than it eliminates.  Most of them don't exist now and many of them have not even been thought of.  Like eBay sellers, YouTube personalities, Uber drivers, Airbnb, task rabbit, etc. ... before connected computers even if it was proven you returned in a time machine from the future, past generations would not believe these could be actual jobs.  Likewise, the new jobs that technology will create, that your grandkids might have, you cannot even imagine today.

But first, comes the productivity increases and the loss of existing jobs first, then comes the creation.  See the rapid adopt rates of new technology.  What different this time is the automation will come fast and the existing jobs will disappear fast.  The new jobs will come to slower.,

In 1900, 50% of all jobs were on a farm.  In 2000 it was less than 2%.  This took generations.  Today's automation could do the same to the economy but now in just a few years.