collapse

* Resources


UDM 4

* Recent Posts

Recruiting as of 6/15/19 by We R Final Four
[Today at 07:52:23 PM]


Reseating... by We R Final Four
[Today at 07:48:49 PM]


Big East Is The Winner In This Round Of Conference Expansion by MU Fan in Connecticut
[Today at 07:27:25 PM]


Herro by Jay Bee
[Today at 06:48:09 PM]


Marquette NBA Thread by Herman Cain
[Today at 06:45:09 PM]


Adding UConn & the big bump in our Fox contract by Herman Cain
[Today at 06:11:04 PM]


UConn to BE Rumors by Billy Hoyle
[Today at 04:16:23 PM]

Please Register - It's FREE!

The absolute only thing required for this FREE registration is a valid e-mail address.  We keep all your information confidential and will NEVER give or sell it to anyone else.
Login to get rid of this box (and ads) , or register NOW!


Author Topic: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good  (Read 28307 times)

rocket surgeon

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2104
  • NA of course
minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« on: June 23, 2017, 07:31:32 PM »
we discussed this a couple years ago when it first being introduced.  some thought it was badly needed and others were a little more pragmatic.  well, according to this article citing some once promising restaurants, the minimum wage is a business killer-well color me surprised 

http://www.fresnobee.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/article155979969.html

Eldon

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2693
Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2017, 08:52:15 PM »
we discussed this a couple years ago when it first being introduced.  some thought it was badly needed and others were a little more pragmatic.  well, according to this article citing some once promising restaurants, the minimum wage is a business killer-well color me surprised 

http://www.fresnobee.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/article155979969.html


GooooMarquette

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6861
  • I'm an extremely stable genius!! Right Kellyanne??

tower912

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 14595
Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2017, 09:32:09 PM »
Put it in the politics.  Oh, wait.....
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

Tugg Speedman

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8836
Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2017, 10:00:20 PM »
The US has 4 million minimum wage jobs.  Half have the title "cashier."

Yes, below would have happened eventually but the minimum wage hike is causing it to happen faster.

McDonalds Is Replacing 2,500 Human Cashiers With Digital Kiosks: Here Is Its Math
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-06-23/mcdonalds-replacing-2500-human-cashiers-digital-kiosks-here-its-math


mu_hilltopper

  • Warrior
  • Global Moderator
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6327
  • Arby's is my spirit animal.
Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2017, 10:06:02 PM »
Filed under economics.

It also belongs in the daily dose of doom thread. 

rocket surgeon

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2104
  • NA of course
Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2017, 05:18:08 AM »
Filed under economics.

It also belongs in the daily dose of doom thread.

my apologies-we can move it to the "doom" thread if it makes others feel more comfortable.
 
  anywhooo, as cooler heads prevail-thank you!  my intentions were not to go all MU82 here.  it's merely pointing out that a topic we had discussed back in 2014-minimum wage hikes and their effectiveness.  back in 2014 of course. all we had was some pragmatic speculation and opinions.  what i was merely stating here is some real evidence coming in as to the efficacy of that very poorly thought out (imho) plan that most practical thinkers correctly predicted to be doomed for failure.  i don't care what ones political persuasion is.  the fact is this fails regardless. "feel good" chit has got to pass the "but is it practical test" as well.

    for those of you trying to paint me in to a political corner, your motives are too transparent ::).   we've been, for the most part, been able to have civil discussions lately around such topics as these without inserting vitriolic political partisanship and it seems to have worked out pretty good.  of course some of us try to tickle the edges a little, but come on man!  this was a very resourceful topic following up on a previously discussed issue.   as hilltopper correctly states-ECONOMICS for $100 alex would be a more accurate observation and i very much appreciated that
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 05:21:09 AM by rocket surgeon »

jesmu84

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4369
Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2017, 06:21:06 AM »
People should not have to rely on the "minimum wage" jobs for a career and to support a family. So, imo, those types of jobs shouldn't have increases.

I do believe, however, that the lower end of the career workforce does need increases.

The upper end, the super high end, couldn't live on slightly less? As an example, a local hospital CEO made $17 mil in the same year they put a hiring freeze and salary increase freeze on nursing staff. That stresses and Burns everyone out. Not to mention effects patient care. You're telling me he couldn't live on $10 mil and use the difference to support nursing staff? Crazy, to me

Of course, you also have situations like this, where those career jobs are disappearing: https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/04/23/business/economy/indiana-united-technology-factory-layoffs.html
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 07:28:18 AM by jesmu84 »

GGGG

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 25207
Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2017, 06:26:50 AM »
my apologies-we can move it to the "doom" thread if it makes others feel more comfortable.
 
  anywhooo, as cooler heads prevail-thank you!  my intentions were not to go all MU82 here.  it's merely pointing out that a topic we had discussed back in 2014-minimum wage hikes and their effectiveness.  back in 2014 of course. all we had was some pragmatic speculation and opinions.  what i was merely stating here is some real evidence coming in as to the efficacy of that very poorly thought out (imho) plan that most practical thinkers correctly predicted to be doomed for failure.  i don't care what ones political persuasion is.  the fact is this fails regardless. "feel good" chit has got to pass the "but is it practical test" as well.

    for those of you trying to paint me in to a political corner, your motives are too transparent ::).   we've been, for the most part, been able to have civil discussions lately around such topics as these without inserting vitriolic political partisanship and it seems to have worked out pretty good.  of course some of us try to tickle the edges a little, but come on man!  this was a very resourceful topic following up on a previously discussed issue.   as hilltopper correctly states-ECONOMICS for $100 alex would be a more accurate observation and i very much appreciated that


You have a history of posting political commentary.  You painted yourself in the corner. 

Try to be more self-aware.

Tugg Speedman

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8836
Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2017, 07:41:05 AM »
People should not have to rely on the "minimum wage" jobs for a career and to support a family. So, imo, those types of jobs shouldn't have increases.

I do believe, however, that the lower end of the career workforce does need increases.

The upper end, the super high end, couldn't live on slightly less? As an example, a local hospital CEO made $17 mil in the same year they put a hiring freeze and salary increase freeze on nursing staff. That stresses and Burns everyone out. Not to mention effects patient care. You're telling me he couldn't live on $10 mil and use the difference to support nursing staff? Crazy, to me

Of course, you also have situations like this, where those career jobs are disappearing: https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/04/23/business/economy/indiana-united-technology-factory-layoffs.html

Most CEO CASH salaries are rounding errors to the companies' bottom line (CEOs are mostly paid in stock and off performance bonuses).  If he did what you wanted, and gave back half his salary, virtually the same freeze would have occurred.

While I don't know the specifics of the case you're talking about, the fact is the company most likely made the decision for competitive reasons.  If their nurses are overpaid, it affects everyone in the company.  Further, if it was as unfair as you suggest, those nurses are free to go down the street to another hospital that does not have a hiring freeze.

GooooMarquette

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6861
  • I'm an extremely stable genius!! Right Kellyanne??
Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2017, 09:24:03 AM »

People should not have to rely on the "minimum wage" jobs for a career and to support a family. So, imo, those types of jobs shouldn't have increases.


I agree with you in theory.

In practice, many less educated people - those who used to depend on factory jobs and such - no longer have many options.  It's easy to say they should go back to school and get the education they need to get a "career-oriented" job.  And the younger ones without kids should probably be doing that.  But people who have kids and already live check to check can ill-afford to give up their minimum wage jobs while they have young mouths to feed.  For older workers who have been laid off from factory jobs that will never come back, its equally difficult.  If you're 50+ and go get a degree, you'll be in your mid-50s when you try to get into the "career-oriented" workforce.  Not an easy task.

Like I said, I agree in theory that people shouldn't bet their careers on fast food type jobs...but the real life reality in this economy is that the options they have are pretty limited.

jesmu84

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4369
Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2017, 09:28:00 AM »
I agree with you in theory.

In practice, many less educated people - those who used to depend on factory jobs and such - no longer have many options.  It's easy to say they should go back to school and get the education they need to get a "career-oriented" job.  And the younger ones without kids should probably be doing that.  But people who have kids and already live check to check can ill-afford to give up their minimum wage jobs while they have young mouths to feed.  For older workers who have been laid off from factory jobs that will never come back, its equally difficult.  If you're 50+ and go get a degree, you'll be in your mid-50s when you try to get into the "career-oriented" workforce.  Not an easy task.

Like I said, I agree in theory that people shouldn't bet their careers on fast food type jobs...but the real life reality in this economy is that the options they have are pretty limited.

Right. That was unsaid in my post. I agree with you.

We have to face the reality that there are less career jobs out there. So to stabilize the lower end of the economy/society, increase wages across the board for the mid to lower end. Or somehow increase career job opportunities.

MUBurrow

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1143
Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2017, 09:44:05 AM »
Disagree that this isn't a political thread - any fair and thoughtful discussion necessarily hits on the implicit subsidies given to businesses when you don't force them to pay a living wage, or the need for the social safety net to pick up the gap between what McDonalds pays and what it takes to support someone's children if the rest of us demand $1 McDoubles.  The belief that we can meaningfully discuss the economic consequences of the minimum wage without discussing the interplay with the political system on, you know, the people actually working those jobs, makes it easy to see how we got here.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 09:45:47 AM by MUBurrow »

PBRme

  • Team Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 441
Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2017, 10:13:52 AM »
The subsidy is not to the business it is to the person.  If your work product is not enough to earn a "living wage" how is that the fault of the business.

Peace, Love, and Rye Whiskey...May your life and your glass always be full

MUBurrow

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1143
Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2017, 12:23:35 PM »
The subsidy is not to the business it is to the person.  If your work product is not enough to earn a "living wage" how is that the fault of the business.







forgetful

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3778
Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2017, 12:42:36 PM »
we discussed this a couple years ago when it first being introduced.  some thought it was badly needed and others were a little more pragmatic.  well, according to this article citing some once promising restaurants, the minimum wage is a business killer-well color me surprised 

http://www.fresnobee.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/article155979969.html

The article is an opinion piece.  It does not provide extensive analysis of past history, other circumstances or an industry wide average.  Other scientific studies (one by Cal-Berkeley) have came to the exact opposite conclusions examining minimum wage increases. 

The bottom line is that there are two many variables in these situations allowing anyone to argue essentially anything they wish to prove their point. 

Maybe it is best to stick with the humane thing to do and to pay people a living wage for the work they complete.

real chili 83

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 7237
Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2017, 01:01:14 PM »
There are tons of high paying jobs in the trades that go unfilled. Minimum wage is mostly a political issue, as unions use it as a benchmark for negotiations.

forgetful

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3778
Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2017, 01:43:31 PM »
There are tons of high paying jobs in the trades that go unfilled. Minimum wage is mostly a political issue, as unions use it as a benchmark for negotiations.

This is only partially true.  There are significant high paying jobs in the IT/Tech industry that are going unfilled.  But they are not going to hire just anyone.  There are many that remain unemployed/underemployed with degrees and training in this sector that are deemed unqualified because of where their degrees/training comes from (e.g. community colleges).  They want highly trained, elite workers for these jobs, and frankly there will never be enough of them from the US alone. 

So the companies leave them intentionally unfilled (just work the existing salaried people harder).  The job openings serve the purpose of making the overworked employees think he company is trying.  But the company will not hire people that meet the requirements, as they deem them not good enough and it is more profitable to work the existing employees longer hours.

Same thing goes for other sectors.  There was a recent study that showed that ~70% of job openings are deemed hard/unable to be filled.  But only 14% lack applicants that meet the job requirements. 

The jobs go unfilled from a combination of the companies not actually wishing to fill the jobs, poor salary and/or poor work quality/locations. 

Poor salary is a huge problem.  A $16 an hour job is considered well-paying in these types of reports on unfilled jobs, but often the person could pay the student loans (to get the training) and/or child care needed to take the job.  Economically the $16 an hour job does not match the opportunity cost.  But the companies will not pay more. 

The greatest evidence of this is that typically when there are so many vacancies, low unemployment and skills gaps, salaries rise.  They have not in our economy, because the situation is not as it seems.

MU82

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 11541
Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2017, 01:49:37 PM »
my apologies-we can move it to the "doom" thread if it makes others feel more comfortable.
 
  anywhooo, as cooler heads prevail-thank you!  my intentions were not to go all MU82 here.  it's merely pointing out that a topic we had discussed back in 2014-minimum wage hikes and their effectiveness.  back in 2014 of course. all we had was some pragmatic speculation and opinions.  what i was merely stating here is some real evidence coming in as to the efficacy of that very poorly thought out (imho) plan that most practical thinkers correctly predicted to be doomed for failure.  i don't care what ones political persuasion is.  the fact is this fails regardless. "feel good" chit has got to pass the "but is it practical test" as well.

    for those of you trying to paint me in to a political corner, your motives are too transparent ::).   we've been, for the most part, been able to have civil discussions lately around such topics as these without inserting vitriolic political partisanship and it seems to have worked out pretty good.  of course some of us try to tickle the edges a little, but come on man!  this was a very resourceful topic following up on a previously discussed issue.   as hilltopper correctly states-ECONOMICS for $100 alex would be a more accurate observation and i very much appreciated that

You used teal in your OP.

You hardly used capital letters at all (but you did in "MU82," so thanks).

You mostly didn't make sense.

And you cited a "study" that had very little basis in fact.

Therefore, rocketman, there was no threat of you going "all MU82."
"We need journalists who are on the side of victims, on the side of those who are persecuted, excluded, thrown away and discriminated against ... situations of suffering that often are in the dark, or have light shining for a moment only to return to the darkness of indifference."

-- Pope Francis

rocket surgeon

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2104
  • NA of course
Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2017, 01:54:11 PM »

You have a history of posting political commentary.  You painted yourself in the corner. 

Try to be more self-aware.

no need for the lecture ward.  if i go political, just as anyone else, they should be called on it.  until then, read what's in front of you.

rocket surgeon

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2104
  • NA of course
Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2017, 02:32:46 PM »
  "You hardly used capital letters at all (but you did in "MU82," so thanks)"

  but but that's your name, right?  just showing a little respect, ain'er?

no basis in fact?  did you read it?  i get when people don't agree with the facts, but that doesn't mean there is no basis in fact.  what do i have to do?  go out and actually quote the owners of the closed down businesses?  oh, i get it, they closed the business down because they were making too much money and wanted to prove the "living wage" people wrong ?-(

  this is all a simple common sense business decision.  if i had to jack up my salaries to whatever number above and beyond what the market dictates-i'm gone.  in other words, it's not rocket surgery ;D

forgetful-regarding "the humane" thing to do?  give our people the tools and a GOOD EDUCATION.  prepare them for what they need to know to make a "living wage"  i understand it's more complicated then that, but not everyone is capable and not everyone is entitled to anything.  life ain't fair.  we can't keep telling them that they should be making X.  get out there and prove you are worthy.  they can start with showing up to work on time for 2-3 days in a row.  then go for 4...

forgetful

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3778
Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2017, 03:00:32 PM »
  "You hardly used capital letters at all (but you did in "MU82," so thanks)"

  but but that's your name, right?  just showing a little respect, ain'er?

no basis in fact?  did you read it?  i get when people don't agree with the facts, but that doesn't mean there is no basis in fact.  what do i have to do?  go out and actually quote the owners of the closed down businesses?  oh, i get it, they closed the business down because they were making too much money and wanted to prove the "living wage" people wrong ?-(

  this is all a simple common sense business decision.  if i had to jack up my salaries to whatever number above and beyond what the market dictates-i'm gone.  in other words, it's not rocket surgery ;D

forgetful-regarding "the humane" thing to do?  give our people the tools and a GOOD EDUCATION.  prepare them for what they need to know to make a "living wage"  i understand it's more complicated then that, but not everyone is capable and not everyone is entitled to anything.  life ain't fair.  we can't keep telling them that they should be making X.  get out there and prove you are worthy.  they can start with showing up to work on time for 2-3 days in a row.  then go for 4...

Rocket, your latter statements do not match the existing state of our economy and employment situations.  Salaries are stagnant.  Employers for a long time have made the argument of "cutting costs" to drive down wages regardless of how much harder people work, or how many more hours they work, or regardless of developing new tools and getting a good education. 

Even now when there are supposedly tremendous vacancies, they do not increase wages.  Most of these jobs are at or barely above a living wage.  The problem is how we have orchestrated our employment structure, where the corporate elite continuously get massive wages, while they argue that the plebeians will have to make due with salary freezes. 

All this comes at times when companies are hoarding record amounts of cash. 

rocket surgeon

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2104
  • NA of course
Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2017, 11:07:16 PM »
Rocket, your latter statements do not match the existing state of our economy and employment situations.  Salaries are stagnant.  Employers for a long time have made the argument of "cutting costs" to drive down wages regardless of how much harder people work, or how many more hours they work, or regardless of developing new tools and getting a good education. 

Even now when there are supposedly tremendous vacancies, they do not increase wages.  Most of these jobs are at or barely above a living wage.  The problem is how we have orchestrated our employment structure, where the corporate elite continuously get massive wages, while they argue that the plebeians will have to make due with salary freezes. 

All this comes at times when companies are hoarding record amounts of cash.

i can agree with your comments somewhat-yes there are discrepancies.  it is not a perfect system, but better than anywhere else in the world.  our economic system however, allows for corrections. 

marissa mayer is one good example of what you described.   

Ellenson Family Reunion

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4465
Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2017, 07:01:29 AM »
The US has 4 million minimum wage jobs.  Half have the title "cashier."

Yes, below would have happened eventually but the minimum wage hike is causing it to happen faster.

McDonalds Is Replacing 2,500 Human Cashiers With Digital Kiosks: Here Is Its Math
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-06-23/mcdonalds-replacing-2500-human-cashiers-digital-kiosks-here-its-math

http://fair.org/home/fast-food-automation-an-old-idea-gets-new-life-to-bash-fight-for-15/

PBRme

  • Team Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 441
Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2017, 07:51:13 AM »
This is only partially true.  There are significant high paying jobs in the IT/Tech industry that are going unfilled.  But they are not going to hire just anyone.  There are many that remain unemployed/underemployed with degrees and training in this sector that are deemed unqualified because of where their degrees/training comes from (e.g. community colleges).  They want highly trained, elite workers for these jobs, and frankly there will never be enough of them from the US alone. 

So the companies leave them intentionally unfilled (just work the existing salaried people harder).  The job openings serve the purpose of making the overworked employees think he company is trying.  But the company will not hire people that meet the requirements, as they deem them not good enough and it is more profitable to work the existing employees longer hours.

Same thing goes for other sectors.  There was a recent study that showed that ~70% of job openings are deemed hard/unable to be filled.  But only 14% lack applicants that meet the job requirements. 

The jobs go unfilled from a combination of the companies not actually wishing to fill the jobs, poor salary and/or poor work quality/locations. 

Poor salary is a huge problem.  A $16 an hour job is considered well-paying in these types of reports on unfilled jobs, but often the person could pay the student loans (to get the training) and/or child care needed to take the job.  Economically the $16 an hour job does not match the opportunity cost.  But the companies will not pay more. 

The greatest evidence of this is that typically when there are so many vacancies, low unemployment and skills gaps, salaries rise.  They have not in our economy, because the situation is not as it seems.

In my company we have determined it is cheaper to pay overtime than to hire an additional employee.  In most cases the employee appreciates the opportunity for extra earnings and we avoid the training and hiring costs.

It is cheaper because healthcare costs have risen so fast in recent years (15.4% for my company in 2017).  The average employee now costs over $10/hour just for healthcare in addition there is unemployment, workers comp, and other bennies and costs .  Since we only calculate benefits over the first forty hours the forty first hour in many cases is cheaper than any of the first forty. Our starting wage is $16 and Ave is $23
Peace, Love, and Rye Whiskey...May your life and your glass always be full