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Author Topic: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good  (Read 25696 times)

mu03eng

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #50 on: June 26, 2017, 01:50:19 PM »
I misspoke in my previous report. I shouldn't have said minimum wage. I'm more referring to the low pay of mid- or low-tier workers. Especially when relative to others in the work force. Again, in my field, looking at techs/hospital support staff vs nurses/clinical staff vs hospital administrators. It's insane.

A lot of the issue with that field has nothing to do with the work force, it has everything to do with the fact that a large portion of that industry is disconnected from "natural" market forces. Some of the disconnect is the nature of the business (health is highly variable and inelastic) but even more is the result of government intervention, things like Medicaid/Medicare, regulations, etc. Nearly the only control healthcare providers have over their cost of doing business is the labor force. Additionally, because healthcare doesn't take a holistic approach to the value they are delivering so the folks that are customer facing but low wage aren't appreciated by the industry instead the focus is on the rockstars (doctors).
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mu03eng

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #51 on: June 26, 2017, 01:54:04 PM »
Question for the folks arguing that the minimum wage needn't be connected to the cost of supporting oneself and minor dependents - do you think there should be a minimum wage at all? If you think there should be a minimum wage, but that it need not relate to the cost of living to support folks, what metrics should be used to determine it?

In an ideal political environment, I would 100% support an elimination of all minimum wage laws. Much like the elimination of Medicare, it very well could be a good idea, but it is politically insane so I accept it as part of a pragmatic approach to getting anything done (by not suggesting it).
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

rocket surgeon

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #52 on: June 26, 2017, 07:59:30 PM »
our poor people are the richest poor people in the world.  one of the problems with people who don't earn very much is prioritizing.  living within their means,  there is a lot of peer pressure to have "air jordans" the newest cell phone, expensive designer/pre-ripped jeans, etc.  all the commercials glorifying unnecessary chit.  i call some of these people "dime-store rich"  if you cannot afford something, another child, the new car, you can't have it-don't try to buy it!!

Jay Bee

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2017, 08:06:50 PM »
our poor people are the richest poor people in the world.  one of the problems with people who don't earn very much is prioritizing.  living within their means,  there is a lot of peer pressure to have "air jordans" the newest cell phone, expensive designer/pre-ripped jeans, etc.  all the commercials glorifying unnecessary chit.  i call some of these people "dime-store rich"  if you cannot afford something, another child, the new car, you can't have it-don't try to buy it!!

There are many of these types. So many seem to be OK with it & believe "oh, make whatever dumb choices you want... you still DESERVE as a right from them rich folk"... it's amazing. Sad. But so true.

MU82

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2017, 08:09:58 PM »
our poor people are the richest poor people in the world.  one of the problems with people who don't earn very much is prioritizing.  living within their means,  there is a lot of peer pressure to have "air jordans" the newest cell phone, expensive designer/pre-ripped jeans, etc.  all the commercials glorifying unnecessary chit.  i call some of these people "dime-store rich"  if you cannot afford something, another child, the new car, you can't have it-don't try to buy it!!

This is right-wing clap-trap at its finest.

Do you know that upwards of 20% of families can't even afford the most basic Internet? They don't own cellphones. They sleep in roach-infested digs. They drive 15+ year-old cars that constantly need repair. Etc. AND they work multiple jobs just to afford that.

Are there some who "game the system"? Absolutely, a relatively very few. Are there some who are living way above their means as you portray? Absolutely.

But it's always easy for rich folks to whine about the poor folks stealing another bite of caviar from them. That is all you rich people eat, right? Caviar, washed down by Dom Perignon while sailing on one of your 8 yachts, right?

Generalize much?

Oh ... and Air Jordans? Wake up, rocket. It's 2017.
We must remember that intelligence is not enough. Intelligence plus character – that is the goal of true education.

-- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

rocket surgeon

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2017, 08:12:33 PM »
there are a number of articles out casting seattle's minimum wage hike "experiment" as failing.  i am just going to post the links and let them speak for themselves

http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/26/news/seattle-minimum-wage-15/index.html

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/study-seattles-15-minimum-wage-costs-jobs-48282722

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/study-seattles-15-minimum-wage-costs-jobs-48282722

   "But experts on the minimum wage questioned the methods of the University of Washington researchers."

     rule #1-when one doesn't like the outcome of something they support-axk the "experts"

  it would be nice to know who these "experts" are

http://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/minimum-wage-hikes-a-feel-good-lie-that-destroys-jobs-and-minority-kids-futures/

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2017/06/seattle-minimum-wage-study.html


i'm not going to bother putting the fox news article in as most experts believe them to be "fake news" anyway

rocket surgeon

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2017, 08:20:13 PM »
  "Oh ... and Air Jordans? Wake up, rocket. It's 2017."

  no need to get so angry.  i was using "air jordans" as an example of stuff they can't afford and stuff they can do without.  note, the "quotation marks" were used to note "for example" and not literally air jordans.  how about just using your own example of whatever higher end show is in vogue?  would you have understood better if i would have used the big ballers brand

Tugg Speedman

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #57 on: June 26, 2017, 08:26:51 PM »
This is right-wing clap-trap at its finest.

Do you know that upwards of 20% of families can't even afford the most basic Internet? They don't own cellphones. They sleep in roach-infested digs. They drive 15+ year-old cars that constantly need repair. Etc. AND they work multiple jobs just to afford that.

Are there some who "game the system"? Absolutely, a relatively very few. Are there some who are living way above their means as you portray? Absolutely.

But it's always easy for rich folks to whine about the poor folks stealing another bite of caviar from them. That is all you rich people eat, right? Caviar, washed down by Dom Perignon while sailing on one of your 8 yachts, right?

Generalize much?

Oh ... and Air Jordans? Wake up, rocket. It's 2017.

Wow!

95% of US adults have cell phones
http://www.pewinternet.org/fact-sheet/mobile/

87% Use the internet
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/09/07/some-americans-dont-use-the-internet-who-are-they/

A third of non-internet users (34%) did not go online because they had no interest in doing so or did not think the internet was relevant to their lives. Another 32% of non-internet users said the internet was too difficult to use, including 8% of this group who said they were “too old to learn.” Cost was also a barrier for some adults who were offline – 19% cited the expense of internet service or owning a computer.

Add it up and only 3% of US adults say they don't use the becase they cannot afford it.

And poor people are fatter than rich people
http://www.scholarsstrategynetwork.org/brief/why-poverty-leads-obesity-and-life-long-problems

The average car age in the US is 11.6 years.  So 15 is just a bit longer thant he average
http://www.autonews.com/article/20161122/RETAIL05/161129973/average-age-of-vehicles-on-road-hits-11.6-years

You're wrong on every sob story you made up so that elitist like you can be morally superior.

All that said, there is one area the poor have indeed been falling behind ... social mobility.  Elitist like you push for policies that make inequality worse. 

82 = the real smuggles.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 08:28:24 PM by 1.21 Jigawatts »

jesmu84

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2017, 08:34:12 PM »
there are a number of articles out casting seattle's minimum wage hike "experiment" as failing.  i am just going to post the links and let them speak for themselves

http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/26/news/seattle-minimum-wage-15/index.html

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/study-seattles-15-minimum-wage-costs-jobs-48282722

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/study-seattles-15-minimum-wage-costs-jobs-48282722

   "But experts on the minimum wage questioned the methods of the University of Washington researchers."

     rule #1-when one doesn't like the outcome of something they support-axk the "experts"

  it would be nice to know who these "experts" are

http://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/minimum-wage-hikes-a-feel-good-lie-that-destroys-jobs-and-minority-kids-futures/

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2017/06/seattle-minimum-wage-study.html


i'm not going to bother putting the fox news article in as most experts believe them to be "fake news" anyway

It did fail. Minimum wage appears not to be the correct target for trying to influence social mobility. Can we learn and grow from this and the Kansas City experiment?

http://www.businessinsider.com/kansas-experiment-with-tax-cutting-failed-on-its-own-terms-2017-6

My guess is no. That would mean thinking together toward a mutual goal.

mu03eng

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2017, 09:01:47 PM »
There are many of these types. So many seem to be OK with it & believe "oh, make whatever dumb choices you want... you still DESERVE as a right from them rich folk"... it's amazing. Sad. But so true.

My issue with this line of thinking is that it doesn't take into account that some (won't same many or most but it's a consequential amount), aren't making poor or dumb choices, institutionally it is stacked against them. There is fundamental inequality baked into the system that makes escaping the "bad luck" of your birth difficult. Until we figure out how to solve the institutional issue, I'm not willing to throw the baby out with the bath water.
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Eldon

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #60 on: June 26, 2017, 09:33:37 PM »



Stay strong, Topper!!  Hang in there

MU82

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #61 on: June 26, 2017, 10:16:47 PM »
82 = the real smuggles.

Except I didn't call myself "smug."

You and rocket are right.

All poor people are gaming the system, stealing from the downtrodden millionaires and billionaires out there.

Maybe the Orange Menace will ban them next.
We must remember that intelligence is not enough. Intelligence plus character – that is the goal of true education.

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TAMU Eagle

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #62 on: June 27, 2017, 12:02:50 AM »
our poor people are the richest poor people in the world.  one of the problems with people who don't earn very much is prioritizing.  living within their means,  there is a lot of peer pressure to have "air jordans" the newest cell phone, expensive designer/pre-ripped jeans, etc.  all the commercials glorifying unnecessary chit.  i call some of these people "dime-store rich"  if you cannot afford something, another child, the new car, you can't have it-don't try to buy it!!

C'mon Rocket. I haven't weighed in on this thread because honestly, I don't have the economic know how to know whether raising the minimum wage is the right thing or not. I want everyone to be paid a living wage, but I don't know that raising the minimum wage is the right way to do that. I have been intrigued and learning from people on both sides of the argument. But this is baloney.

Are there poor people who buy unnecessary things that they can't afford? Absolutely. But I would estimate the number of people who are in poverty or kept in poverty because they buy new cell phones (or whatever you want to throw in here) is is very close to 0%. They are in poverty because they were born into it, didn't have access to quality education, and can't get a job to pay a living wage. They might buy something they can't afford (which we all buy things we shouldn't) but that is merely a small symptom, not the disease.

The number one cause of personal bankruptcy in this country? Medical bills. Not new air jordans. That comes from the same line of thinking as "you can't give homeless people money, they'll spend it on booze and drugs." A very small minority might. Most will use it to get food or bus fare so they can get to a shelter. But for some reason we always focus on the vast minority who abuse the system instead the of thousands of hard working people who are doing everything they can to survive.

The don't have children you can't afford is an interesting one. I agree. Parents need to be honest about their ability to afford a child because if they're not, the child suffers. But if you take a step back and think about it, how messed up is that concept? Because you are poor you need to not have sex to avoid having a kid. I mean you could have protected sex but that is not a 100% guarantee and besides, a lot of people will judge you for using birth control and tell you that you are a sinner. Not only that, but we are now trying to get rid of programs in the country the provide free birth control. So now in order for poor people to have sex they have to spend the little money they have on birth control to avoid having a baby that they can't afford. Can you imagine if someone told you that you couldn't have sex with your spouse anymore? The fact that we don't have to think about it is an example of privilege. So is the fact that we judge poor people for buying new cell phones they don't need but we don't judge non-poor people for the same thing.

Long winded way of saying, in a majority of cases, the people aren't the cause of their own poverty. The cycle of poverty is.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

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TAMU Eagle

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #63 on: June 27, 2017, 12:03:30 AM »
Double post
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

Tugg Speedman

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #64 on: June 27, 2017, 07:22:50 AM »
Eight million more people to fire and minimum wage hikes will make this happen as fast as possible.

Amazon’s Move Signals End of Line for Many Cashiers
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/17/upshot/amazons-move-signals-end-of-line-for-many-cashiers.html?_r=0

But it has become increasingly clear that parts of every job will be automated — and that the service sector is next. Although certain service jobs like health aide or preschool teacher still seem safe, others, like those in retail and food service, are already being displaced. It’s not hard to teach a machine to do routine tasks like scanning bar codes, stocking shelves or dunking fries in oil.

Eight million people, 6 percent of American workers, are retail salespeople and cashiers, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Cashier jobs are expected to grow 2 percent by 2024, significantly slower than 7 percent job growth over all, and technology is the main reason, according to the bureau.

Half the time worked by salespeople and cashiers is spent on tasks that can be automated by technology that’s currently in use, according to a recent McKinsey Global Institute report. Two-thirds of the time on tasks done by grocery store workers can be automated, it said. Another report, by Forrester, estimated that a quarter of the tasks salespeople do would be automated this year, and 58 percent by 2020.

reinko

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #65 on: June 27, 2017, 07:26:21 AM »
Eight million more people to fire and minimum wage hikes will make this happen as fast as possible.

Amazon’s Move Signals End of Line for Many Cashiers
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/17/upshot/amazons-move-signals-end-of-line-for-many-cashiers.html?_r=0

But it has become increasingly clear that parts of every job will be automated — and that the service sector is next. Although certain service jobs like health aide or preschool teacher still seem safe, others, like those in retail and food service, are already being displaced. It’s not hard to teach a machine to do routine tasks like scanning bar codes, stocking shelves or dunking fries in oil.

Eight million people, 6 percent of American workers, are retail salespeople and cashiers, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Cashier jobs are expected to grow 2 percent by 2024, significantly slower than 7 percent job growth over all, and technology is the main reason, according to the bureau.

Half the time worked by salespeople and cashiers is spent on tasks that can be automated by technology that’s currently in use, according to a recent McKinsey Global Institute report. Two-thirds of the time on tasks done by grocery store workers can be automated, it said. Another report, by Forrester, estimated that a quarter of the tasks salespeople do would be automated this year, and 58 percent by 2020.

Throw in the 3.5 million truck drivers who will lose jobs once automation takes over the semi truck business and we gots some problems ahead of us.  What say you, Heisy, autonomous semi trucks by 2025?  Sooner?

Tugg Speedman

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #66 on: June 27, 2017, 07:34:59 AM »
Throw in the 3.5 million truck drivers who will lose jobs once automation takes over the semi truck business and we gots some problems ahead of us.  What say you, Heisy, autonomous semi trucks by 2025?  Sooner?

Sooner ...

Last month Ford fired it CEO Mark Fields and hired Jim Hackett because Fields was not moving the company fast enough to electric/driverless and ending the dealer model and selling cars on a subscription basis.

So if Ford reason for being today is to create driverless vehicles, take the under on 2025.

For professionals ... 80% or so of surgeons and lawyers are also at risk of having their jobs eliminated.  Most of what most of them do can be replaced by robots/AI.  In fact, Law school enrollment is at a 30 year low and falling precisely because everyone sees the writing on the wall.

Shakepesere wrote, "kill all the lawyers"... computers might do exactly that.


ATL MU Warrior

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #67 on: June 27, 2017, 07:41:00 AM »
Sooner ...

Last month Ford fired it CEO Mark Fields and hired Jim Hackett because Fields was not moving the company fast enough to electric/driverless and ending the dealer model and selling cars on a subscription basis.

So if Ford reason for being today is to create driverless vehicles, take the under on 2025.

For professionals ... 80% or so of surgeons and lawyers are also at risk of having their jobs eliminated.  Most of what most of them do can be replaced by robots/AI.  In fact, Law school enrollment is at a 30 year low and falling precisely because everyone sees the writing on the wall.

Shakepesere wrote, "kill all the lawyers"... computers might do exactly that.
This ain't gonna happen any time soon, if ever.

4everwarriors

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #68 on: June 27, 2017, 07:41:26 AM »
Except I didn't call myself "smug."

You and rocket are right.

All poor people are gaming the system, stealing from the downtrodden millionaires and billionaires out there.

Maybe the Orange Menace will ban them next.




Nads, how are yo holdin's doin' since da "Orange Menace" took office, hey?
"Give 'Em Hell, Al"

Tugg Speedman

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #69 on: June 27, 2017, 07:41:26 AM »
C'mon Rocket. I haven't weighed in on this thread because honestly, I don't have the economic know how to know whether raising the minimum wage is the right thing or not. I want everyone to be paid a living wage, but I don't know that raising the minimum wage is the right way to do that. I have been intrigued and learning from people on both sides of the argument. But this is baloney.

Shaking my head at the economic ignorance here.  What happens when you raise the price of something?  You get less of it!  This is true for labor (minimum wage) and burgers.

You're just letting your fear of being politically incorrect to come out and say what is obviously true ... raising the minimum wage causes the most vulnerable, usually a woman or minority, to lose their job.

Speaking of "just raise the price of burgers to pay higher minimum wages" .... when you rise the price you get less of it!

The Wall Street Journal
May 31, 2017
Diners Are Finding $13 Burgers Hard to Swallow
Number of outlets peddling gourmet toppings has nearly quadrupled since 2005, but sticker-shocked consumers opt for home grilling instead

https://www.wsj.com/articles/diners-are-finding-13-burgers-hard-to-swallow-1496241667

As the number of outlets serving “better” burgers—featuring nontraditional toppings and artisan buns—has skyrocketed over the past decade, so has the average burger tab, turning some customers off.

Brian Cockerline, a 20-year-old Rutgers University student, used to go to Five Guys for a burger once a week in South Plainfield, N.J. With fries and a drink, his tab was about $13.

Now, he is cooking burgers at home instead.

Lunch traffic to quick-serve hamburger restaurants fell 5% last year—the biggest year-over-year decline that market-research firm NPD Group Inc. has recorded.


« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:44:01 AM by 1.21 Jigawatts »

ATL MU Warrior

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #70 on: June 27, 2017, 07:44:08 AM »



Nads, how are yo holdin's doin' since da "Orange Menace" took office, hey?
Didn't stop you from complaining about prior president non-stop.

4everwarriors

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #71 on: June 27, 2017, 07:54:32 AM »
Didn't stop you from complaining about prior president non-stop.




Hoo new Crean wuz ever president, ai na?
"Give 'Em Hell, Al"

Eldon

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #72 on: June 27, 2017, 08:04:22 AM »
And here's a peak behind the curtain regarding the Seattle minimum wage study done by the the U of Washington profs (the one that is talked about in all the links upthread, i.e., the one putting Seattle's wage hike in a negative light):

The City Knew the Bad Minimum Wage Report Was Coming Out, So It Called Up Berkeley

Saltsman raises a good question, pointing to a paragraph on the title page of the study that says the Berkeley report was “prepared at the request of the Mayor of Seattle.” This was odd, Saltsman noted, given that the city was already funding a series of six studies from the University of Washington on the impacts of the wage law. Why look outside the city for research when taxpayers are already funding local number crunching?

He had a theory: Those UW studies just weren’t positive enough. Saltsman pointed out that Reich is a go-to academic for proponents of a $15-an-hour minimum wage across the country. Reich is also affiliated with the Berkeley Labor Center. As the Albany (N.Y.) Times Union noted last year, the center “has done at least six … studies on the minimum wage in California municipalities, all showing that a wage increase would be beneficial.”


The UC-Berkeley report came out about a week before the U of Washington report.  The U of Washington authors wisely replicated the results of the Berkeley paper showing that their own paper is more general, more credible. 

Note that it was the mayor who funded the Berkeley study, despite already funding six others.  I'm going to go out on a (short) limb and say that that study was not funded out of his own pocket.  Add that to the cost of a minimum wage hike.

http://www.seattleweekly.com/news/seattle-is-getting-an-object-lesson-in-weaponized-data/


jficke13

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #73 on: June 27, 2017, 08:32:49 AM »
This ain't gonna happen any time soon, if ever.

Man I hope it does. Dealerships are the vestigal effect of a products liability shield legal tactic from the 20s-30s. They serve absolutely no point.

I'll call it here: Once Amazon is done revolutionizing the grocery industry, they'll cut a deal with an automaker and have Prime Auto, click, deliver, no negotiating.

TAMU Eagle

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #74 on: June 27, 2017, 08:44:45 AM »
Shaking my head at the economic ignorance here.  What happens when you raise the price of something?  You get less of it!  This is true for labor (minimum wage) and burgers.

You're just letting your fear of being politically incorrect to come out and say what is obviously true ... raising the minimum wage causes the most vulnerable, usually a woman or minority, to lose their job.

Speaking of "just raise the price of burgers to pay higher minimum wages" .... when you rise the price you get less of it!

The Wall Street Journal
May 31, 2017
Diners Are Finding $13 Burgers Hard to Swallow
Number of outlets peddling gourmet toppings has nearly quadrupled since 2005, but sticker-shocked consumers opt for home grilling instead

https://www.wsj.com/articles/diners-are-finding-13-burgers-hard-to-swallow-1496241667

As the number of outlets serving “better” burgers—featuring nontraditional toppings and artisan buns—has skyrocketed over the past decade, so has the average burger tab, turning some customers off.

Brian Cockerline, a 20-year-old Rutgers University student, used to go to Five Guys for a burger once a week in South Plainfield, N.J. With fries and a drink, his tab was about $13.

Now, he is cooking burgers at home instead.

Lunch traffic to quick-serve hamburger restaurants fell 5% last year—the biggest year-over-year decline that market-research firm NPD Group Inc. has recorded.


Heisy....I didn't say I was for the minimum wage going up. I said I was enjoying hearing from both sides. Hold the outrage. The part that I was disputing was the assertion that poor people are poor because they buy useless things they can't afford.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper