minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

   "Not to mention that I can feed a family on unhealthy crap for a lot cheaper"

mcdonalds offers salads and apple slices(used to anyway) instead of grease and fries.  i don't think the apple slices went over so well either-big shocker, ayyn'a? 

1. The salads are typically more expensive than the unhealthy crap.

2. Their salads ain't very healthy.

3. People who are truly food insecure can't afford McDonald's. $4 per person for a meal? That's way outside budget. Its much more common that they are shopping for highly processed canned goods that they can buy in bulk and make it last for as long as possible.

[WI inferiority Complexes]

Why would you do this?  Here are your options ...

1. $30 to $80k/year for a car....you pay to fix.

These 80k per year cars aren't even under warranty?

[StillAWarrior]

2015 story saying driveerless trucks are coming in the summer of 2015
https://www.wired.com/2015/05/worlds-first-self-driving-semi-truck-hits-road/

Uber's first driverless truck delivery took place last fall.  It delivered 50,000 cans of Bud
https://www.wired.com/2016/10/ubers-self-driving-truck-makes-first-delivery-50000-beers/

And yes it will devastate the economy of many jobs.  But it cannot be stopped because it is cheaper than what we have now.  That makes it an unstoppable force.

https://techcrunch.com/2016/04/25/the-driverless-truck-is-coming-and-its-going-to-automate-millions-of-jobs/

So...what you're saying is that you have nothing to support your original post (suggesting that there currently are thousands of trucks and that at least some drivers in the back sleeping while these trucks are doing their thing).  I think you were exaggerating a bit; the articles you linked describe some fairly limited testing.  However, I suspect that what you described will be a reality before long.

[jesmu84]

And this makes you happy, no?

Yes and no. Getting rid of a minimum wage cashier? Yes. Getting rid of a gas station/restaurant owner? No.

[Tugg Speedman]

Ford's CEO was fired because their stock price was down +30% in is tenure.  There are innumerable reasons for that. 

Regarding the transition to a dealer-less distribution model:  This is not really my area of expertise but I'll give it a shot.

Ford Motor Company has roughly 3,400 dealerships in the United States.  Ford has 15% market share (give or take) so they are but a small fraction of total dealerships in the industry.
 
Every single one of those dealerships has signed a Sales & Service Agreement. 

In order to move to the "no-dealer" model, Ford would have to do one of two things: 

1) Buy out every existing dealer they have (massive outlay of $$)
2) Terminate the S&S Agreement of every dealer who didn't take the buyout (Massive outlay of $$ and years and years of litigation)

I don't know about Ford's S&S agreements, but I do know that it is nearly impossible to terminate a dealer at the OEM I work for.  Other OEMs (eg. Nissan) have written their agreements to make it much easier.  Franchisee laws favor the franchisee, not the franchisor, so even assuming they could terminate, the cost would be monumental and it would take years and years to resolve.

These are the realities.  You act like this is a no-brainer and is going to happen overnight.  This is absolutely an unrealistic view.

Are you people not paying attention to what is happening in the Auto industry?  Yes, Ford was down 40%, but so is GM.

As of tonight

             Market Cap          Car sold in 2016            Stock price change last 4 years
Tesla     $59.5 billion              86,000                                        243%
GM       $51.6 billion             10 million                                          5%
Ford     $44.1 billion              2.6 million                                  -27.5%
                                                                          S&P 500          24.1%

Why is a company that sells 86,000 cars worth more than companies that sell millions of cars?  Why is the stock price of those companies that make millions of cars have stock prices going DOWN while the overall market is going up?

Answer, the legacy car companies are toast.  The world is radically changing and too many of them like ATL are insisting nothing is changing and the world is racing away without them.

I'll let Bill Ford, Chairman of Ford (and owner of the Lions) explain

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2017/05/22/ford-appoints-jim-hackett-as-ceo.html

“We’re moving from a position of strength to transform Ford for the future,” Bill Ford said. “Jim Hackett is the right CEO to lead Ford during this transformative period for the auto industry and the broader mobility space. He’s a true visionary who brings a unique, human-centered leadership approach to our culture, products and services that will unlock the potential of our people and our business.”

Does this sound like a guy that is going to satisfy union demands and dealer worries?  He's dropping both of them like a bad habit and moving forward.  Because if he does not, Telsa, Uber, Apple, Google will and take their business from them.

And what did new Ford CEO Jim Hackett do before being name CEO of Ford?

Ford Motor Co on Monday named James Hackett, who heads its unit developing self-driving cars, as chief executive officer, responding to investors' growing unease about the U.S. automaker's stock price and prospects.

And why was he chosen ...

Executive Chairman Bill Ford Jr. and the board have been unhappy with the company's performance and sought reassurance that investments in self-driving cars, electric vehicles and ride services would pay off. The Ford family controls the automaker through a special class of voting rights stock.

Ford Jr. told reporters at a news conference that the automaker needs to make decisions faster.
"We have to modernize the business" and move "decisively to address underperforming areas," he said.

[jesmu84]

and all this "not so good" news regarding the minimum wage and it hasn't even reached the $15/hour level they are shooting for.  this is a big union and political scam.  unions want it to boost their bottom line and politicians are using it to garner votes.  who the heck wouldn't be for making more per hour without any additional education or responsibility.  they keep frothing these people up with bad info and then blame the businesses

The people who decided that executive pay should raise significantly since the 70s compared to lower level jobs not keeping up with inflation

[jesmu84]

So...what you're saying is that you have nothing to support your original post (suggesting that there currently are thousands of trucks and that at least some drivers in the back sleeping while these trucks are doing their thing).  I think you were exaggerating a bit; the articles you linked describe some fairly limited testing.  However, I suspect that what you described will be a reality before long.

I agree with this analysis

[rocket surgeon]

1. The salads are typically more expensive than the unhealthy crap.

2. Their salads ain't very healthy.

3. People who are truly food insecure can't afford McDonald's. $4 per person for a meal? That's way outside budget. Its much more common that they are shopping for highly processed canned goods that they can buy in bulk and make it last for as long as possible.

lose the cell phone, drop the internet, quit smoking and drinking, get your clothes from goodwill, ride the bus.  yes, i know it sounds heartless, but you do what you have to do to survive short of breaking the law.  maybe this would motivate some to strive for better than "minimum wage?  go back to school for a trade?  learn how to manage people, show up for work, finish school, do not become a parent until you can handle it emotionally and financially 

  when we continue to give give give, one has no incentive to better themselves.  are there exceptions?  absolutely, but when you give away "free" stuff, you will draw a crowd.  has anyone here ever fed stray cats?  no, i'm not comparing our less than fortunate to stray cats, just the concept.  there are people who can help themselves, but do not.  then there are some people who cannot help themselves-just like handicapped parking tags, the more able bodied people are ruining it for those who do genuinely need help

[Tugg Speedman]

So...what you're saying is that you have nothing to support your original post (suggesting that there currently are thousands of trucks and that at least some drivers in the back sleeping while these trucks are doing their thing).  I think you were exaggerating a bit; the articles you linked describe some fairly limited testing.  However, I suspect that what you described will be a reality before long.

That was the a statement by the head of the Carnegie Mellon Robotic unit at an investment conference I attended last year.

And yes, limited testing is hundreds if not thousands of trucks.  It is not 5 or 6.

[StillAWarrior]

That was the a statement by the head of the Carnegie Mellon Robotic unit at an investment conference I attended last year.

And yes, limited testing is hundreds if not thousands of trucks.  It is not 5 or 6.

I never said anything about 5 or 6; that's just your straw man.  In fact, I never made a claim at all.  I merely expressed some of my opinions on where automated cars/trucks are heading (and I think we generally share the same opinion on this issue).  Then you made an extremely exaggerated claim that everyone who read it knew was BS.  And when asked for support of that claim, you provided citations that did not even remotely support the claim.

It's OK.  You got a little excited and ahead of yourself.  No harm done.

[Galway Eagle]

lose the cell phone, drop the internet, quit smoking and drinking, get your clothes from goodwill, ride the bus.  yes, i know it sounds heartless, but you do what you have to do to survive short of breaking the law.  maybe this would motivate some to strive for better than "minimum wage?  go back to school for a trade?  learn how to manage people, show up for work, finish school, do not become a parent until you can handle it emotionally and financially 

  when we continue to give give give, one has no incentive to better themselves.  are there exceptions?  absolutely, but when you give away "free" stuff, you will draw a crowd.  has anyone here ever fed stray cats?  no, i'm not comparing our less than fortunate to stray cats, just the concept.  there are people who can help themselves, but do not.  then there are some people who cannot help themselves-just like handicapped parking tags, the more able bodied people are ruining it for those who do genuinely need help

how do they afford school to go get a better job?

They are showing up for work, their work is just known as minimum wage.

Your parent point coming from you is completely hilarious. But hey keep telling people no sex that's worked great so far

[Tugg Speedman]

I never said anything about 5 or 6.  In fact, I never made a claim at all.  I merely expressed some of my opinions on where automated cars/trucks are heading (and I think we generally share the same opinion on this issue).  Then you made an extremely exaggerated claim that everyone who read it knew was BS.  And when asked for support of that claim, you provided citations that did not even remotely support the claim.

It's OK.  You got a little excited and ahead of yourself.  No harm done.

So what are we arguing about, how many self-driving cars and trucks are on the road?  If anything, I understated it.

I can just imagine this place in 2006 and the introduction of the smartphone and all you guys yawning and struggling to see what it is better, or will be better than your current phone




On another note did you know that Uber operates an entire fleet of driverless cars in Pittsburgh?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterhigh/2017/01/24/why-did-uber-pilot-driverless-cars-in-pittsburgh-here-is-why/#37165a0043b0

[GGGG]

So what are we arguing about, how many self-driving cars and trucks are on the road?  If anything, I understated it.

I can just imagine this place in 2006 and the introduction of the smartphone and all you guys yawning and struggling to see what it is better, or will be better than your current phone




On another note did you know that Uber operates an entire fleet of driverless cars in Pittsburgh?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterhigh/2017/01/24/why-did-uber-pilot-driverless-cars-in-pittsburgh-here-is-why/#37165a0043b0

<sigh>

No one is questioning that driverless trucks are in the future.  You exaggerated and instead of owning up to it, are trying to refute points that no one is making.

[GGGG]

how do they afford school to go get a better job?

They are showing up for work, their work is just known as minimum wage.

Your parent point coming from you is completely hilarious. But hey keep telling people no sex that's worked great so far

Not to mention that oftentimes people have children during different economic circumstances than they currently face.  I mean, it's an 18+ year commitment.

[Tugg Speedman]

<sigh>

No one is questioning that driverless trucks are in the future.  You exaggerated and instead of owning up to it, are trying to refute points that no one is making.

exaggerated what?

[StillAWarrior]

So what are we arguing about, how many self-driving cars and trucks are on the road?  If anything, I understated it.

I didn't know we were arguing.  You made an extremely exaggerated statement about thousands of self-driving semis (with drivers sleeping in the back).  I doubted you.  I asked for a citation, in part because -- like you -- I'm very interested in this subject.  You provided some citations to articles that I actually found quite interesting -- but they didn't even remotely support your initial claim of thousands of semis with sleeping drivers.  Then you threw out a straw man ("5 or 6") and then shifted the goal posts ("hundreds if not thousands" and dropping the issue of sleeping drivers).  I mentioned it.  You shifted the goal posts again ("self driving cars and trucks").

All in all...a typical Tuesday for you.  Really, there's nothing wrong with admitting you exaggerated a bit.  I honestly believe that you're very well informed on this issue, and we agree.  You just got a little bit ahead of yourself.  It's OK.

P.S. - Even though I never made the claim, I strongly suspect the actual number of self-driving semis on the road is considerably closer to "5 or 6" than it is to "thousands" (and again, not even touching your claim of drivers sleeping in the back). 

[StillAWarrior]

On another note did you know that Uber operates an entire fleet of driverless cars in Pittsburgh?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterhigh/2017/01/24/why-did-uber-pilot-driverless-cars-in-pittsburgh-here-is-why/#37165a0043b0

Yes, I was aware of that.  Very cool.  As I said up-thread:  it's coming.  Faster than people realize.

[Tugg Speedman]

I didn't know we were arguing.  You made an extremely exaggerated statement about thousands of self-driving semis (with drivers sleeping in the back).  I doubted you.  I asked for a citation, in part because -- like you -- I'm very interested in this subject.  You provided some citations to articles that I actually found quite interesting -- but they didn't even remotely support your initial claim of thousands of semis with sleeping drivers.  Then you threw out a straw man ("5 or 6") and then shifted the goal posts ("hundreds if not thousands" and dropping the issue of sleeping drivers).  I mentioned it.  You shifted the goal posts again ("self driving cars and trucks").

All and all...a typical Tuesday for you.  Really, there's nothing wrong with admitting you exaggerated a bit.  I honestly believe that you're very well informed on this issue, and we agree.  You just got a little bit ahead of yourself.  It's OK.

P.S. - Even though I never made the claim, I strongly suspect the actual number of self-driving semis on the road is considerably closer to "5 or 6" than it is to "thousands" (and again, not even touching your claim of drivers sleeping in the back).

When you asked for a link, I did not know it was about the driver sleeping in the back.  I thought you were questioning the very existence of driverless trucks in the first place.  That is why I provided those links.  (lots of Luddites around here)

Again, I attended an investment conference where it was said.  So it was hearsay ... I don't have a link or can "prove" it happened.

The point of that antidote, like the vibrating steering wheel on a Tesla (you do know that every Tesla you see can go driverless, called autopilot, if the owner paid to upgrade to that feature, and most have), was about how accepting people are of this new technology and regulation has to remind then that it is still experimental and must be treated that way.

[StillAWarrior]

When you asked for a link, I did not know it was about the driver sleeping in the back.  I thought you were questioning the very existence of driverless trucks in the first place.  That is why I provided those links.  (lots of Luddites around here)

Again, I attended an investment conference where it was said.  So it was hearsay ... I don't have a link or can "prove" it happened.

The point of that antidote, like the vibrating steering wheel on a Tesla (you do know that every Tesla you see can go driverless, called autopilot, if the owner paid to upgrade to that feature, and most have), was about how accepting people are of this new technology and regulation has to remind then that it is still experimental and must be treated that way.

Actually, I was looking for a link about both ("thousands" and sleeping drivers), but no biggie.  And yes, I am also well aware of the Tesla feature.  I actually have a friend who had an accident while his Tesla was on autopilot when someone swerved into his lane.  The other driver blamed him, but as soon as he quietly told the cop that the car was on autopilot, the cop attributed fault to the other driver (the other evidence also suggested who was at fault -- so he didn't base his decision solely on the autopilot).  Believe it or not, much of my knowledge on this issue was initiated by your comments and things you've posted.  I'm aware that you're well-informed on this subject.  That's why I was a bit taken aback by the obvious exaggeration.

[forgetful]

That was the a statement by the head of the Carnegie Mellon Robotic unit at an investment conference I attended last year.

And yes, limited testing is hundreds if not thousands of trucks.  It is not 5 or 6.

You are flat out wrong, like always.  Uber's self driving Truck (originally the startup company Otto) testing involved exactly 1, and only 1 truck.  It drove 120 total miles in 2016.


Alphabet is also in the self-driving Truck category.  It has 1, and only 1 truck currently doing any on-road testing. 


You greatly exaggerated in your initial statements and then double and tripled down on those statements. 


Tesla hopes to unveil a self-driving Truck at the end of this year, like their cars, it will have self-driving ability but require a person at the wheel. 


Those who actually work in this field think that it will be at least 5, and likely closer to 10 years before the Semi market is significantly penetrated by self-driving vehicles. 

[ATL MU Warrior]

Are you people not paying attention to what is happening in the Auto industry?  Yes, Ford was down 40%, but so is GM.

As of tonight

             Market Cap          Car sold in 2016            Stock price change last 4 years
Tesla     $59.5 billion              86,000                                        243%
GM       $51.6 billion             10 million                                          5%
Ford     $44.1 billion              2.6 million                                  -27.5%
                                                                          S&P 500          24.1%

Why is a company that sells 86,000 cars worth more than companies that sell millions of cars?  Why is the stock price of those companies that make millions of cars have stock prices going DOWN while the overall market is going up?

Answer, the legacy car companies are toast.  The world is radically changing and too many of them like ATL are insisting nothing is changing and the world is racing away without them.

I'll let Bill Ford, Chairman of Ford (and owner of the Lions) explain

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2017/05/22/ford-appoints-jim-hackett-as-ceo.html

“We’re moving from a position of strength to transform Ford for the future,” Bill Ford said. “Jim Hackett is the right CEO to lead Ford during this transformative period for the auto industry and the broader mobility space. He’s a true visionary who brings a unique, human-centered leadership approach to our culture, products and services that will unlock the potential of our people and our business.”

Does this sound like a guy that is going to satisfy union demands and dealer worries?  He's dropping both of them like a bad habit and moving forward.  Because if he does not, Telsa, Uber, Apple, Google will and take their business from them.

And what did new Ford CEO Jim Hackett do before being name CEO of Ford?

Ford Motor Co on Monday named James Hackett, who heads its unit developing self-driving cars, as chief executive officer, responding to investors' growing unease about the U.S. automaker's stock price and prospects.

And why was he chosen ...

Executive Chairman Bill Ford Jr. and the board have been unhappy with the company's performance and sought reassurance that investments in self-driving cars, electric vehicles and ride services would pay off. The Ford family controls the automaker through a special class of voting rights stock.

Ford Jr. told reporters at a news conference that the automaker needs to make decisions faster.
"We have to modernize the business" and move "decisively to address underperforming areas," he said.

If this guy isn't worried about what dealers think he isn't going to be in his position for very long.

You don't understand the dynamic of the business. Dealer networks have immense leverage over manufacturers now and for the foreseeable future.

Do you think Ford wants to sell any new cars/trucks during the next 5-10 years?   If they do they need their dealer network more than their dealer network needs them.

A well-operated dealership pays all their operating costs through their service business. Selling cars is purely profit for these guys. If Ford pisses them off they will either switch their focus to used cars (better margins anyway) or to another manufacturer's business as the majority of dealership operators own multiple brands. 

Let me say it again.  Unless Ford wants to see their sales/profitability/stock price tank for the next 5-10 years, they will do what their dealer network wants. .

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

lose the cell phone, drop the internet, quit smoking and drinking, get your clothes from goodwill, ride the bus.  yes, i know it sounds heartless, but you do what you have to do to survive short of breaking the law.  maybe this would motivate some to strive for better than "minimum wage?  go back to school for a trade?  learn how to manage people, show up for work, finish school, do not become a parent until you can handle it emotionally and financially 

  when we continue to give give give, one has no incentive to better themselves.  are there exceptions?  absolutely, but when you give away "free" stuff, you will draw a crowd.  has anyone here ever fed stray cats?  no, i'm not comparing our less than fortunate to stray cats, just the concept.  there are people who can help themselves, but do not.  then there are some people who cannot help themselves-just like handicapped parking tags, the more able bodied people are ruining it for those who do genuinely need help

I know. Give to the poor. Such a crazy concept. Jesus and those Jesuits were suckers!

So how are people supposed to afford this education? How do they fill out the application for school if they don't have internet? How do they do their homework and write their term papers? How do they get a management type job if they show up for the interview in clothes from Goodwill? It's all possible, but you need to recognize the tremendous barriers that are in the way. Why is it so offensive to you that some would seek to remove some of those barriers?

Don't have a baby until they're financially ready? Is that code for "don't have sex until you're financially ready?" That's the only way to guarantee that you don't have a baby. Is that a reasonable expectation?

The "quit drinking and smoking" and "start showing up for work" seems to imply things that are not true. Most people in poverty are not smokers or alcoholics. Most also show up regularly for work. You seem to be implying that most people who are poor are there because they choose to be. They aren't. They were born into poverty. Escaping that takes a tremendous amount of hard work, a good amount of luck, and more than a little support from others.

All these things are examples of privilege by the way.

You seemed very concerned that a few people will take advantage of people's (or government's) kindness. Some will. Just as there are billionaires who take advantage of tax loopholes (In fact, I would guess but have no proof that upper class folks "abuse the system" at a much more frequent rate than lower class folks). Why focus on the vast minority or people who abuse the system? Why not focus on the vast majority who are in genuine need? If you have a program that helps 95 people, but 5 people abuse it, why screw over the 95 just to keep the 5 from abusing it?

A disclaimer, none of the above post is about the original topic, the minimum wage. That is a separate but related conversation.

[rocket surgeon]

how do they afford school to go get a better job?

They are showing up for work, their work is just known as minimum wage.

Your parent point coming from you is completely hilarious. But hey keep telling people no sex that's worked great so far

here is a great web site with quite a few options for grants.  note i didn't say loans

http://www.collegegrant.net/trade-school-grants/

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

here is a great web site with quite a few options for grants.  note i didn't say loans

http://www.collegegrant.net/trade-school-grants/

Grants!?!?!? That sounds like giving to the poor! And we all know:

  when we continue to give give give, one has no incentive to better themselves.

But in all seriousness, grant programs like this are wonderful things. And that's why is is important that programs exist to help remove the barriers people must overcome in order to escape poverty. But you have to realize that this is just one barrier. There are hundreds more that people most overcome. Hell there are barriers that need to be overcome to even apply for the grant.

[rocket surgeon]

  "So how are people supposed to afford this education? How do they fill out the application for school if they don't have internet? How do they do their homework and write their term papers? "

   the libraries

remember-we can't be everything to everyone.  with all due respect tamu, you seem to be going "half empty"  no one said this is easy.  baby steps...we aren't going to solve this issue in a couple of years.  this really picked up steam 50-60+ years ago. did we have all these programs during the great depression? people can be resourceful when the have to be.  if we could get 10-15-20% change over the next 5-10 years, that would be huge.  it starts with attitude adjustments and bipartisanship.  the divisiveness being handed down over the past generations is so anti-productive.