United Airlines

[warriorchick]

He was wrong about the baby being able to use the seat they paid for, sucks but they were wrong. Should have called ahead and I assume Delta would have let him switch the name on the ticket.

However, the article does say that the dad agreed to carry the baby and Delta kicked his family off after the fact. I wasn't there so I don't know how disruptive the family was, but if the issue had been solved, I think its bad customer service to kick the family off.

From what I saw on TV (and it was a very short clip), Dad was being a dick about the whole thing.

One thing I worried about after the original Dr Dao incident that it would embolden people to disregard instructions they were given by flight personnel.  And a planeload of people who won't obey the flight crew can be a very dangerous situation.

[Tugg Speedman]

From what I saw on TV (and it was a very short clip), Dad was being a dick about the whole thing.

One thing I worried about after the original Dr Dao incident that it would embolden people to disregard instructions they were given by flight personnel.  And a planeload of people who won't obey the flight crew can be a very dangerous situation.

On top of that airline employees, and United in particular, are reporting more verbal abuse by customers than ever before.  Too many people think the Dao incident means airline employees should not be treated with respect. 

For those that say this incident will be forgotten that is true and not true.  True that over time customers will forget about the Dao incident and go back to using United like they always have.  Not True in that they are making it worse for airline employees and that is causing some real labor problems for these companies.

[jesmu84]

This guy was clearly in the wrong.  He did not have a ticket in his kid's name, and he thought he would get by with a workaround.  Every person sitting in a seat has to have a ticket with his/her name on it.  That's for security reasons.

I had a SW flight held up once because it was completely sold out, and a woman put her baby (who was supposed to be a lap-sitter) in a seat, causing another passenger to be without one.  She was asked if she had purchased a ticket for the baby, and even though she knew that the flight was full, she lied and said she had. Instead of saying, "Okay, I'm busted", and putting the kid back into her lap, she forced the airline to go back to the computer at the gate and prove that there was no ticket in her baby's name.  People are a$$holes.

1. To be fair, the guy never argued against that. He argued against the child being able to be in the car seat and be in the airline seat by itself.
2. I agree that he was ultimately breaking the FAA rules. His 2 year old needed to have a ticket with it's name to be able to sit in that seat.
3. Your personal instance sounds completely different, albeit somewhat related, to the situation at hand.

[jesmu84]

From what I saw on TV (and it was a very short clip), Dad was being a dick about the whole thing.

One thing I worried about after the original Dr Dao incident that it would embolden people to disregard instructions they were given by flight personnel.  And a planeload of people who won't obey the flight crew can be a very dangerous situation.

You should watch the whole video in the link provided. You can even watch it at 1.5x and understand it all

[Pakuni]

From what I saw on TV (and it was a very short clip), Dad was being a dick about the whole thing.

One thing I worried about after the original Dr Dao incident that it would embolden people to disregard instructions they were given by flight personnel.  And a planeload of people who won't obey the flight crew can be a very dangerous situation.

Well, I mean, it didn't help that the flight crew threatened to have the kids thrown into foster care and blatantly lied about federal regulations.
Seems like any parent would justifiably be a dick to someone under those circumstances.

Also dangerous: treating people like livestock.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

From what I saw on TV (and it was a very short clip), Dad was being a dick about the whole thing.

One thing I worried about after the original Dr Dao incident that it would embolden people to disregard instructions they were given by flight personnel.  And a planeload of people who won't obey the flight crew can be a very dangerous situation.

Customers get to be dicks. Unfortunately,  too many take advantage of that. I don't think being a dick should get you kicked off an airplane, threatened with jail time/having kids removed,  and cost you 2000. If the situation was resolved and there was no threat of violence or further disruption,  I think the right move was to let them stay.

[WarriorInNYC]

One thing I worried about after the original Dr Dao incident that it would embolden people to disregard instructions they were given by flight personnel.  And a planeload of people who won't obey the flight crew can be a very dangerous situation.

This reminds me of one thing that Mike Rowe brought up in regards to Oscar Munoz's bumbling of his response that made a lot of sense to me.

“I watched a tape of United’s CEO, Oscar Munoz, as he attempted to walk back some earlier comments. He told ABC news that the passenger in question — David Dao — ‘did nothing wrong,’ ” Mr. Rowe said.

“Now, I’m no longer disturbed, Donna. I’m merely terrified,” Mr. Rowe explained on a Facebook post to Donna Johnson. “Oscar certainly didn’t blame the victim. But in the process of finding him blameless, he suggested that millions of passengers are under no obligation to follow a direct command from United employees.

“The facts are clear: If you want to travel by air, you must agree to do what you’re told,” Mr. Rowe said. “If you don’t, you subject yourself to fine, arrest, constraint, forcible removal, and/or a permanent ban from the friendly skies. It’s all there in the fine print.”

“Personally, I support this policy. I support it because I don’t want to fly across the country in a steel tube filled with people who get to decide which rules they will follow and which they will ignore,” the television host continued.

“I’ve been on too many flights with too many angry people to worry about the specific circumstances of their outrage, or the details of why they took it upon themselves to ignore a direct command. A plane is not a democracy, and the main cabin is no place to organize a sit-in. The main cabin is a place to follow orders,” he concluded.”

Now if you read the whole quote Rowe gives, he calls out for all the wrong things United did, as well as other ways that Oscar bumbled the issue from a PR nightmare, but I do agree with him here about Oscar saying that Dao did nothing wrong. 

[StillAWarrior]

This reminds me of one thing that Mike Rowe brought up...

Mike Rowe is fantastic.  If I was going to make a list of people in the public eye that I'd like to have a beer with, I'd be hard pressed to think of anyone that I'd put ahead of Rowe.

[mu03eng]

Mike Rowe is fantastic.  If I was going to make a list of people in the public eye that I'd like to have a beer with, I'd be hard pressed to think of anyone that I'd put ahead of Rowe.

First of all, he's a proud Eagle Scout which always punches someone up a few notches in my book. Second of all, the say common sense isn't...that's probably because Mike Rowe is hording all of it. I'd love to spend hours hanging out with that dude.

He is the only person, and I mean ONLY person, I would vote for political office with no questions asked on his plank, that dude is pragmatic as hell and that is all I need.

[mu03eng]

As to the newest Delta incident, it is troublesome for multiple reasons as it demonstrates:
-Passengers are less inclined to accept flight crew directions
-Flight crew are not following good customer service practices
-We've lost the ability to adjudicate a central solution because we retreat to our extremes.

One thought on the Delta issue related to inmates running the asylum. I'm very concerned that we are now rewarding confrontational behavior from passengers. I'm not saying the family didn't deserve to be compensated (I think they did) but even if they were totally in the wrong, the flight crew treated them poorly and as a result the family is being compensated. Challenging behavior is now being rewarded so you'll see it more and more. The airlines better get their crews equipped to handle it and fast.

[Tugg Speedman]

As to the newest Delta incident, it is troublesome for multiple reasons as it demonstrates:
-Passengers are less inclined to accept flight crew directions
-Flight crew are not following good customer service practices
-We've lost the ability to adjudicate a central solution because we retreat to our extremes.

One thought on the Delta issue related to inmates running the asylum. I'm very concerned that we are now rewarding confrontational behavior from passengers. I'm not saying the family didn't deserve to be compensated (I think they did) but even if they were totally in the wrong, the flight crew treated them poorly and as a result the family is being compensated. Challenging behavior is now being rewarded so you'll see it more and more. The airlines better get their crews equipped to handle it and fast.

Yup ...

Like I noted above, the long-term legacy of the United incident is people now feel they have a right to be belligerent and treat airline employees like crap.  And airline employees are tired of taking the crap.

It is a bad cocktail that I fear is only getting worse.

[rocket surgeon]

   "The facts are clear: If you want to travel by air, you must agree to do what you’re told,” Mr. Rowe said. “If you don’t, you subject yourself to fine, arrest, constraint, forcible removal, and/or a permanent ban from the friendly skies. It’s all there in the fine print.”

    i agree 110% with this statement-based on this statement and how these incidents all played out, would anyone surmise if any airline would allow them to fly with them?  can an airline refuse to allow them to book a flight(s)?

    or do they have to worry about "discrimination" of any sort?  this can be a lawyers dream come true.  guess what?  hello increased air fare for all 

 

[#UnleashSean]

Oh good. I'm really excited to buy airline tickets just like concert tickets... you know, like when some individual or company uses a bot or early access to buy a crap-ton of tickets and then jacks up the price. Perfect.

Ya im not to keen on the idea of selling airline tickets like concert tickets. That is a whole other level of absolute scum I wish would go  away.

[#UnleashSean]

How many of you people have actually spent any time with the airline industry? Not many based on these answers.

Rule 1 in the Industry: NEVER FORK OUT CASH FOR ANYTHING!!!!

Rule 2 in the Industry: YOU GET FIRED IMMEDIATELY FOR BREAKING RULE 1!

Denied boarding compensation isn't cash. It's the right to buy a United ticket on a future flight. If they give you discounts on future airfare, OK, maybe that makes sense. But, a $1,000 credit against two trips to Europe or the Far East, well, isn't a huge number but may help at the margin. So if you want two round-trips to Wichita via Houston and Denver, yeup. But to London, Paris or the Far East, forget it!

Your creativity is cash. The iPhone is cash out the door. So are the Cubs tickets. And, to Chick's point, they will require a bureaucracy because the United States Department of the Treasury, Internal Revenue Service, has a phrase for Iphones, Cubs Tickets and, yes, cash...

Taxable Income.

And it has to be reported. Which means a 1099 for everyone who gets creative compensation.

Actually you can give cash. And in the case of involuntary removal. It has to be cash. I've gotten cash 3 times for being voluntary. When they start to reach for a voucher I say cash only and when they say can't do that I walk away and they always call me back.

[Tugg Speedman]

Ya im not to keen on the idea of selling airline tickets like concert tickets. That is a whole other level of absolute scum I wish would go  away.

Amazing how so many people do not understand how supply and demand work.

[rocket surgeon]

Amazing how so many people do not understand how supply and demand work.

that's how tickets to sporting events have been sold.  i don't know how many organizations have adopted this method, but the price of the seats are dependent upon availability. didn't the bucks employ something like this?  you paid a certain price-usually really cheap, but they couldn't guarantee where your seat was until so many hours before tip-off-they would notify via text message or email

[#UnleashSean]

that's how tickets to sporting events have been sold.  i don't know how many organizations have adopted this method, but the price of the seats are dependent upon availability. didn't the bucks employ something like this?  you paid a certain price-usually really cheap, but they couldn't guarantee where your seat was until so many hours before tip-off-they would notify via text message or email

A lot of teams do dynamic pricing. Based more on days of week and who the other team is. The Brewers and cubs do it i believe.

Airlines also do this already though. The whole concert ticket thing was about scalpers though. Not supply and demand.

[Tugg Speedman]

A lot of teams do dynamic pricing. Based more on days of week and who the other team is. The Brewers and cubs do it i believe.

Airlines also do this already though. The whole concert ticket thing was about scalpers though. Not supply and demand.

I know some people in the Cubs' organization and they are all ready to go to a pure auction market for tickets.  That means no prices, everything is auctioned (including full and partial season tickets).  So, yes, if you are the only bidder, you can get them for $5 (the smallest price) but it is doubtful you are the only one.  And even of you are, $5 is better than an empty seat at zero.

Their studies show that everyone is a winner on this ... teams collect more money (average prices go up) and the standard deviation widens.  So, price insensitive buyers can pay up for good seats and those on a budget can get cheap upper deck seats.

In fact, some studies argue that most products should be sold this way, like iPhones (oh no, he's back on iPhones again!).   A pure auction is the best way to maximize value.  That is why most financial market securities sales are auctions.

The reason it has not happened is MLB is afraid to approve it because they fear the public, being ignorant of supply and demand, will not understand it and it will be a PR nightmare for them.

Airlines should do the same.  No price for a ticket ... let the bidding begin.  It is far and away the most efficient way to sell something and everyone wins.  It eliminates the need to overbook (this goes away) and allows the passenger to be more flexible with their travel and budget.


-------------------------------

http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/eric.budish/research/Ticket-Auctions.pdf

Primary-Market Auctions for Event Tickets: Eliminating the Rents of “Bob the Broker”∗
January 26, 2014

Economists have long been puzzled by event-ticket underpricing: underpricing reduces revenue for the performer, and encourages socially wasteful rent-seeking by ticket brokers. What about using an auction to set price correctly? This paper studies the recent introduction of auctions into the event-ticket market by Ticketmaster. By combining primary-market data from Ticketmaster with secondary-market resale value data from eBay, we show that Ticketmaster’s auctions “work”: the auctions substantially improve price discovery, roughly double performer revenues, and, on average, nearly eliminate the arbitrage profits associated with underpriced tickets. The data thus suggest that auctions can eliminate the speculator rent-seeking that has been associated with this market since the 19th century, and that seems to have exploded in volume in the 21st century

[rocket surgeon]

well, for all the bad stories that have been coming out on the airlines, here's a good one-

http://en.newsner.com/now-we-pay-tribute-to-the-airline-that-did-everything-in-its-power-to-help-a-mother-in-need/about/news,family

[jsglow]

that's how tickets to sporting events have been sold.  i don't know how many organizations have adopted this method, but the price of the seats are dependent upon availability. didn't the bucks employ something like this?  you paid a certain price-usually really cheap, but they couldn't guarantee where your seat was until so many hours before tip-off-they would notify via text message or email

Marquette actually did that for #mubb during the '15-'16 season.  Pardon me for forgetting the details but in early December of that year for about a week they had the following offer: 'Download our app for maybe $69 and come to this long list of upcoming games.  Activate as you enter the BC and we'll assign you a seat for that day.'  Pretty cool.  I think they limited it to a few hundred.  I don't think it made a return this past year.

[#UnleashSean]

Auction sounds like a nice idea but how would they make it feasible. As in I want to buy a ticket 2 months ahead. When does this auction end? Or it's a nice day out and  i decide to go to a game randomly. Are all the auctions over?

[rocket surgeon]

now spirit airlines joins the latest airline mishap/PR screw-up after they had to cancel some flights.  the passengers started a mini-riot/fight when all hell broke lose at fort lauderdale airport.  i thought these only happened when the people realized that they are flying with spirit at boarding time

[Tugg Speedman]

Auction sounds like a nice idea but how would they make it feasible. As in I want to buy a ticket 2 months ahead. When does this auction end? Or it's a nice day out and  i decide to go to a game randomly. Are all the auctions over?

They are already experimenting with this

Here’s How to Get a Business-Class Airline Seat Without the High Cost
http://fortune.com/2016/01/07/airline-upgrade-auctions/

Remember the key to an auction is making tickets transferrable.  Right now you cannot take a ticket and give it to someone else.  You are not allowed to do this now unless you pay a huge change fee.  Without the ability to transfer tickets, an auction will not work as you cannot sell it on a secondary market (an auction) now.

(and to answer a previous question, the TSA will not allow bots to buy up tickets and create a scarcity via a corner.  Only real humans not on the no-fly list can buy tickets.)

[StillAWarrior]

Only real humans not on the no-fly list can buy tickets.)

I'm assuming (i.e., hoping) that was a typo.

[Tugg Speedman]

I'm assuming (i.e., hoping) that was a typo.

Yes, that was a typo, I fixed it.