MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: Tugg Speedman on April 10, 2017, 10:45:12 PM
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New training video from United's corporate headquarters
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New official seating charts just released.
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First leggings and now this. The united pr folks are racking up a lot of overtime
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there are veys and there are other veys. some of zeez may not be so pleasant.
it's no wonder airfare can be expensive...when ya gotta pay for all their PR fook-ups. this dude won't have to see another patient in his life. would have expected this from an airline name sopranos, not "united"
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Not to absolve United for creating the situation in the first place, but the folks who "re-accomodated" the passenger's face were Chicago PD (or airport PD... I've seen the agency reported a couple different ways). Either way, when there's no meaningful consequence to escalation and use of force, presto-chango, you get the indiscriminate use of force.
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First leggings and now this. The united pr folks are racking up a lot of overtime
The Dir. of Corp Comm at United is a MU grad.
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Not to absolve United for creating the situation in the first place, but the folks who "re-accomodated" the passenger's face were Chicago PD (or airport PD... I've seen the agency reported a couple different ways). Either way, when there's no meaningful consequence to escalation and use of force, presto-chango, you get the indiscriminate use of force.
This incident has the potential to be epic. Cops are losing their jobs. Supervisors might too. Police procedures are going to change.
At United, Munoz awful response with infuriating corporate double-speak ("re-accommodating") and blaming the customer (calling him "belligerent") means he too might be unemployed in the coming months. The only question (to me) is how much of his compensation package gets clawed back.
The MU grad that is the director of corporate communications is toast too.
Oh, and PRweek is a loser (nice timing!) ...
PRweek – United Airlines CEO Oscar Munoz named PRweek U.S. Communicator of the Year
Munoz will be honored at the annual PRWeek U.S. Awards ceremony in New York City next week on Thursday, March 16.
http://www.prweek.com/article/1426909/united-airlines-ceo-oscar-munoz-named-prweek-us-communicator-year
Oscar Munoz, the charismatic CEO of United Airlines, is PRWeek U.S.’s Communicator of the Year for 2017 – he is the fifth recipient of this title. Since taking on CEO duties in September 2015, Munoz has transformed the fortunes of the beleaguered airline, galvanized staff, and set the business on a smoother course – all in the context of a tremendously difficult time personally.
Finally, the overbooking rules are going to change and that means the airlines will make less money.
One more final thought ...
This is happening because "old people" (meaning over 35) just still don't get it. ANYTHING you do in public is going to have five video angles and going onto social media in seconds. I read yesterday that the video was on twitter before they had him off the plane.
You cannot get away with it anymore, so stop trying!!
The more shocking story at United? It mistreats us all.
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20170411/BLOGS10/170419981#utm_medium=email&utm_source=ccb-morning10&utm_campaign=ccb-morning10-20170411
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Very funny!
http://www.youtube.com/v/QjRBuWlNLF8
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Felon passenger may have gone nutzo prior to the videos...
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Felon passenger may have gone nutzo prior to the videos...
Of course he did, they told him to get off so they could put an employee in his seat. I would have too.
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Man filmed being dragged off United flight causes outrage in China
http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/11/asia/united-passenger-dragged-off-china-reaction/
A public relations disaster for United Airlines is transforming into an international incident in one of its most important markets.
Video of a passenger being dragged off a Chicago-Louisville flight, bloodying his nose and leaving him dazed in the process, has gone viral online in China, attracting tens of thousands of outraged posts.
The man, who has not yet been identified, was overheard saying he was being profiled for being Chinese, a passenger told CNN, before police officers forcibly removed him from his seat on the overbooked flight.
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The man, who has not yet been identified, was overheard saying he was being profiled for being Chinese, a passenger told CNN, before police officers forcibly removed him from his seat on the overbooked flight.
Which is odd, given that he's Vietnamese.
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Of course he did, they told him to get off so they could put an employee in his seat. I would have too.
I understand that. But you do realize that legally the airline had a right to do what it did. That's part of the deal when it comes to air travel.
That being said, I don't have a problem with the practice of overselling. They should just have to up the offer until someone bites on it. Not forcibly remove someone.
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United shouldn't have allowed the passengers to board the plane until the over-seating issue was figured out. Much easier to handle an irate customer at the gate, then on the plane.
While the passenger should have complied with instructions, I have very little sympathy for United. Their customer service has been terrible for years and their completely tone-deaf corporate speak response to the situation was embarrassingly awful.
If this sinks them, so be it.
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I'm glad that I fly out of Midway on SWA.
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A billion in market cap flittered away today due to the poor pr response. This touched on a bigger consumer nerve that has been festering that will be industry-wide.
http://money.cnn.com/2017/04/11/investing/united-airlines-stock-passenger-flight-video/index.html
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That being said, I don't have a problem with the practice of overselling. They should just have to up the offer until someone bites on it. Not forcibly remove someone.
Bingo! The airlines oversell so they can make as much $$ off each flight as they can - and they regularly change the price of tix based on supply and demand. If a flight is oversold, they should have to "buy back" the seat at a price determined by supply and demand as well. Keep upping the price, and eventually someone would have volunteered.
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I understand that. But you do realize that legally the airline had a right to do what it did. That's part of the deal when it comes to air travel.
That being said, I don't have a problem with the practice of overselling. They should just have to up the offer until someone bites on it. Not forcibly remove someone.
Yes, they have the legal right to assault passengers and drag them off as we saw yesterday.
But do not confuse that with it "being right" and on what planet is this legal right is actually a good idea?
Bottom line, it is not a customer's problem that United has to get a deadhead employee to Lousiville. And if United wants to defend this practice, they are going to be a former airline.
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Bingo! The airlines oversell so they can make as much $$ off each flight as they can - and they regularly change the price of tix based on supply and demand. If a flight is oversold, they should have to "buy back" the seat at a price determined by supply and demand as well. Keep upping the price, and eventually someone would have volunteered.
Let me second this. Flying is a terrible and miserable experience. It is for the employees and the customers. We tolerate the airport and the flight because it is more important to be somewhere than to complain about the awful service they provide.
So yes, it has touched a nerve, a big one. the country wants "payback" for being treated badly by all airlines and will not stop until Munoz loses his job and their is wholesale changes in the industry.
His terrible PR response is what ruined his career, and many others at United.
Here what he should have said ...
"Like you, I woke up shocked and horrified by what happened on our flight to Louisville. This is unacceptable! Today I'm personally meeting with the agents, supervisors and aviation police out how this happened with the goal to make sure it never happens again."
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Is the guy still trading drugs for gay sex?
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Is the guy still trading drugs for gay sex?
Well, he got off with the Chicago cop yesterday....
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Is the guy still trading drugs for gay sex?
Doesn't matter and this insinuation actually makes it worse. Becuase it suggests he was indeed profiled by United ... "find the biggest loser on the plane and tell him to get off. If he does not. Call in the storm troopers from aviation police to drag his arse off the plane."
If he paid for the ticket and you seat him, sorry United you cannot make your problem his problem.
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Doesn't matter and this insinuation actually makes it worse. Becuase it suggests he was indeed profiled by United ... "find the biggest loser on the plane and tell him to get off. If he does not. Call in the storm troopers from aviation police to drag his arse off the plane."
If he paid for the ticket and you seat him, sorry United you cannot make your problem his problem.
You are right that it doesn't matter...but I suspect Jay Bee was just havin' fun
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Doesn't matter and this insinuation actually makes it worse. Becuase it suggests he was indeed profiled by United ... "find the biggest loser on the plane and tell him to get off. If he does not. Call in the storm troopers from aviation police to drag his arse off the plane."
If he paid for the ticket and you seat him, sorry United you cannot make your problem his problem.
Yes, they can. Maybe the felon's response contributed to what we've seen on video.
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A billion in market cap flittered away today due to the poor pr response. This touched on a bigger consumer nerve that has been festering that will be industry-wide.
http://money.cnn.com/2017/04/11/investing/united-airlines-stock-passenger-flight-video/index.html
My bet is that it doesn't matter. The oligopoly and streamlining of airline hubs means that there aren't really substitutes for United on a great number of routes. I saw it put like this: "Want to go from Fargo to Denver in a hurry? Congratulations, you're a United customer."
Once the internet rage machine starts chasing a new laser pointer, the end result of this outrage will be: "I will never fly United again, at least until their itinerary is cheaper or the most convenient option available to me."
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My bet is that it doesn't matter. The oligopoly and streamlining of airline hubs means that there aren't really substitutes for United on a great number of routes. I saw it put like this: "Want to go from Fargo to Denver in a hurry? Congratulations, you're a United customer."
Once the internet rage machine starts chasing a new laser pointer, the end result of this outrage will be: "I will never fly United again, at least until their itinerary is cheaper or the most convenient option available to me."
Regrettably true. My choice of a primary airline was based on my location so that I could get places with a minimum of stops, not the quality of the flying experience. Fortunately, that means I haven't had to fly United in over 20 years.
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Yes, they can. Maybe the felon's response contributed to what we've seen on video.
Munoz is correct that he was "belligerent." But what he did not say is United made him belligerent. They set him off by telling him to get off.
Then United "mislead" the aviation cop. They told him they had a "belligerent" passenger and his action were appropriate for that circumstance. What United did not tell him, or made clear to him, was United was the cause of his belligerence. United set off the passenger and called to cop because he was set off.
Also the flight was not overbooked. It was full and done until United called the gate AFTER they started boarding and then told the gate to "make room" for four employees.
At every turn United f'ed this up. Munoz defending it means on the road to being the former CEO of United.
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Let me second this. Flying is a terrible and miserable experience. It is for the employees and the customers. We tolerate the airport and the flight because it is more important to be somewhere than to complain about the awful service they provide.
So yes, it has touched a nerve, a big one. the country wants "payback" for being treated badly by all airlines and will not stop until Munoz loses his job and their is wholesale changes in the industry.
His terrible PR response is what ruined his career, and many others at United.
Here what he should have said ...
"Like you, I woke up shocked and horrified by what happened on our flight to Louisville. This is unacceptable! Today I'm personally meeting with the agents, supervisors and aviation police out how this happened with the goal to make sure it never happens again."
Nope. As with most examples of "outrage", the public will forget about this in a week.
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http://nypost.com/2017/04/11/doctor-dragged-off-flight-convicted-of-trading-drugs-for-sex/
Dao’s player profile on the World Series of Poker website lists his total earnings as $234,664 since he joined the poker circuit in 2006.
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My bet is that it doesn't matter. The oligopoly and streamlining of airline hubs means that there aren't really substitutes for United on a great number of routes. I saw it put like this: "Want to go from Fargo to Denver in a hurry? Congratulations, you're a United customer."
Once the internet rage machine starts chasing a new laser pointer, the end result of this outrage will be: "I will never fly United again, at least until their itinerary is cheaper or the most convenient option available to me."
Here's the article you're referring to (religious deadspinner): http://fusion.net/airlines-can-treat-you-like-garbage-because-they-are-an-1794192270
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I understand that. But you do realize that legally the airline had a right to do what it did. That's part of the deal when it comes to air travel.
That being said, I don't have a problem with the practice of overselling. They should just have to up the offer until someone bites on it. Not forcibly remove someone.
There’s another wrinkle. Rule 25 deals almost entirely with passengers denied boarding—in other words, people who never get on a plane. But in the Chicago incident, the passenger had already boarded when United employees told him he had to get off. Again, unless United has an unpublished policy dealing with this scenario, it’s not addressed in the contract of carriage. So even if United followed its own procedures, it would have violated government rule
Apparently, United will also be paying the government...
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/uniteds-real-mistake-173844672.html
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Apparently, United will also be paying the government...
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/uniteds-real-mistake-173844672.html
From this link (which I noted above) Bold is my emphasis. Again United F'ed this up.
The whole incident seems to have arisen from an unusual situation unanticipated by the airline. United says the flight was already fully boarded when four crew members approached the gate, saying they needed to board the plane to get to Louisville, where the flight was headed, or else a subsequent United departure out of Louisville would have to be canceled. So United made the probably rational decision that it was cheaper to bump four passengers and pay them for their troubles, than to leave the crew members in Chicago and cancel a Louisville departure.
This is where the whole thing went wrong. Three passengers chosen by United—how, remains unclear—apparently accepted the airline’s offer and got off the plane. But the fourth passenger United selected didn’t agree to get off, which led to the forced ejection captured on video and now seen by hundreds of millions worldwide.
United says it offered “up to $1,000” to coax the four passengers off the plane peacefully. Obviously it didn’t offer enough. Fliers everywhere wonder why United didn’t just keep raising its offer until somebody raised their hand. United hasn’t said why, but it may have had something to do with the flight running late and crew members feeling rushed. Still, summoning security in a situation that could have been defused peacefully for a few extra bucks, will surely go down as one of the most obtuse corporate decisions in years.
Bad publicity following the incident has pushed the company’s stock price down a couple percentage points and shaved more than $500 million off the carrier’s market value. Lawsuits seem certain, as well. The whole thing might blow over, if Munoz, who initially called the bumped passenger “disruptive and belligerent,” can muster a heartfelt apology and do something to act like he cares about customers. The lesson for now, however, is don’t ever do something this stupid in your own business.
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My bet is that it doesn't matter. The oligopoly and streamlining of airline hubs means that there aren't really substitutes for United on a great number of routes.
Been to Chicago lately?
The B, C and D Concourses are United.
The G, H and K Concourses are American.
These are hubs. Both American and United serve SDF.
Midway Airport is for all practical is a hub for Southwest. It too serves SDF.
Full disclosure: I'm an ultra high mileage United frequent flier. Still, the gate agent handled the situation poorly, no one can argue that. The crew that bumped the passengers showed up at the last minute and they had a conundrum. They should have been true free marketers, but airline cash flows being sacred, that probably was not going to happen.
A similar problem happened to me once in Denver. Our connecting flight was late, but within 20 minutes of departure. The door was still open and the jetway on the plane when I arrived. I gave them my boarding pass and access to the plane was denied because United had boarded someone else in my seat for the business trip I was taking to Spokane, WA (GEG). I was a first class passenger. They gave me some of the same bull*hit they gave about yesterday's O'Hare incident.
United's plan was to leave me sitting around DIA from 9:00 a.m., until 7:10 p.m., when they had their next departure to GEG. I usually do not have a particularly violent temper, but I did that day, especially since it was United's fault I was not there a half hour before the plane departed. They mis-loaded the cargo on the plane carrying the Chicago departure!
My temper and my high mileage paid off as United put me on a flight to Portland, OR and then on an Alaska Air flight to GEG. I was three hours late and an hour late for my meeting. But, there were eight other passengers connecting in Denver on my Chicago-Denver flight for GEG and were left for the day. Many had plans that evening ruined because of United. Plans that included family gatherings related to Gonzaga University's commencement.
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Munoz defending it means on the road to being the former CEO of United.
Munoz being the "former" CEO of United.
Commander Jeff (Smisek) he is not.
He'd have to bribe a Port Authority executive before that happened.
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It's 4 hours to drive to Louisville, but the United thugs thought it was wiser to beat a passenger into submission?
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It's 4 hours to drive to Louisville, but the United thugs thought it was wiser to beat a passenger into submission?
More like six, but I am sure no one thought outside the box on this one.
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Apparently, United will also be paying the government...
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/uniteds-real-mistake-173844672.html
This article touches on, but doesn't directly address what I think is the biggest issue at play here - the jurisdiction and purpose of the Chicago Aviation Police. They are under the jurisdiction of the Chicago Department of Aviation, which I presume is a publicly funded department? If so, their use of force to uphold a contract for services between an individual and an airline strikes me as extremely problematic. The law goes to tremendous lengths to ensure legal process before agents of any public entity can be called upon to enforce a private contract, and here we have a guy getting dragged out of an airplane and injury being caused to his person upon what could have been no more than an hour of notice to the officers.
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More like six, but I am sure no one thought outside the box on this one.
From Chicago?
Only with a women driver ;D
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This article touches on, but doesn't directly address what I think is the biggest issue at play here - the jurisdiction and purpose of the Chicago Aviation Police. They are under the jurisdiction of the Chicago Department of Aviation, which I presume is a publicly funded department? If so, their use of force to uphold a contract for services between an individual and an airline strikes me as extremely problematic. The law goes to tremendous lengths to ensure legal process before agents of any public entity can be called upon to enforce a private contract, and here we have a guy getting dragged out of an airplane and injury being caused to his person upon what could have been no more than an hour of notice to the officers.
I agree, but if United reports they have a "belligerent passenger" then Airport Police must respond. By not following crew instructions, the passenger could be ruled as "belligerent". However, I find this very problematic, made worse by the fact that it looks like United did not follow Department of Transportation guidelines in the first place.
The issue of overselling and booting paying customers needs to be addressed wholesale within the industry. Again, IMO United deserves any negative fallout they receive.
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This article touches on, but doesn't directly address what I think is the biggest issue at play here - the jurisdiction and purpose of the Chicago Aviation Police. They are under the jurisdiction of the Chicago Department of Aviation, which I presume is a publicly funded department? If so, their use of force to uphold a contract for services between an individual and an airline strikes me as extremely problematic. The law goes to tremendous lengths to ensure legal process before agents of any public entity can be called upon to enforce a private contract, and here we have a guy getting dragged out of an airplane and injury being caused to his person upon what could have been no more than an hour of notice to the officers.
That is why I said United most likely mislead the Aviation police. I say this because if the Aviation cop was told:
We need to throw this passenger off the plane to make room for a crew member needed in Louisville to prevent us from cancelling a flight and costing is money. So please drag him off to help protect our bottom line. Oh, you can use the excuse that he is belligerent as he is only because we told him to get off the plane and that upset him. He was fine before that.
I'm guessing had the aviation cop understood this to be the real situation, he might have reconsidered his use of force, or at least his guidelines would have.
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It's 4 hours to drive to Louisville, but the United thugs thought it was wiser to beat a passenger into submission?
It was airport police, not United employees. And can we please stop with the "thug"nonsense in this case.
Like dgies, I'm a high mileage United flier and I'm more than willing to admit they f'd up here. Both from a procedural and a PR standpoint. However, the piety of social media and commentors of "this would never happen on Delta/American/etc" is absurd. If this is enough to move your business completely to another airline, you must not fly much. Air travel has its warts, you deal with it and hope the numbers are in your favor when it comes to abnormal events like the travel crew in this case.
I also find it rich that all these passengers were shocked, horrified, clutching their pearls...but nobody would give up their seat for this doctor to get home to whatever medical duties he was claiming. "I CANT BELIEVE THEY FORCED HIM OFF THE PLANE, HES A DOCTOR!...oh no, I have to get back home, I couldn't be bothered to offer my seat, but I made sure I posted video". There was a flight to Louisville something like 2 hours later with plenty of empty seats.
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More like six, but I am sure no one thought outside the box on this one.
Problem is it would have violated crew rest for the group bound to Louisville.....they couldn't have flown the next morning if they drove to Louisville. Additionally, my understanding was the crew manning the ORD to SDF was also bumping up against their mandatory crew rest timeline so they felt the pressure to resolve quickly.
Bottom line, somebody made decisions based entirely on what would make life ideal for the business as opposed to the customer (which is United's go to move) and it completely backfired. They could have shifted crews in SDF or called in a stand-by crew to cover the flight that the deadheading crew would have missed so they didn't HAVE to get them there, certainly not to the urgency that they had to kick people off a flight already boarded.
Quite frankly, I've seen it done by the gate agent, no reason it couldn't be done on the flight very quickly....hold an auction, first 4 people that jump at the offer as it escalates win.
Lots of stupid going on in this issue.....but we'll have forgotten about it two weeks from now.
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There was a flight to Louisville something like 2 hours later with plenty of empty seats.
Wait, is this true? All the reports I've seen said there wasn't a flight until the next day.
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It was airport police, not United employees. And can we please stop with the "thug"nonsense in this case.
Like dgies, I'm a high mileage United flier and I'm more than willing to admit they f'd up here. Both from a procedural and a PR standpoint. However, the piety of social media and commentors of "this would never happen on Delta/American/etc" is absurd. If this is enough to move your business completely to another airline, you must not fly much. Air travel has its warts, you deal with it and hope the numbers are in your favor when it comes to abnormal events like the travel crew in this case.
I also find it rich that all these passengers were shocked, horrified, clutching their pearls...but nobody would give up their seat for this doctor to get home to whatever medical duties he was claiming. "I CANT BELIEVE THEY FORCED HIM OFF THE PLANE, HES A DOCTOR!...oh no, I have to get back home, I couldn't be bothered to offer my seat, but I made sure I posted video". There was a flight to Louisville something like 2 hours later with plenty of empty seats.
And to be fair, I have seen interviews of some of the passengers who said that the passenger should have left on his own. Again, this is part of the deal when it comes to air travel.
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I agree, but if United reports they have a "belligerent passenger" then Airport Police must respond. By not following crew instructions, the passenger could be ruled as "belligerent". However, I find this very problematic, made worse by the fact that it looks like United did not follow Department of Transportation guidelines in the first place.
The issue of overselling and booting paying customers needs to be addressed wholesale within the industry. Again, IMO United deserves any negative fallout they receive.
The plane was not overbooked. It was full and loaded and ready to go, then the four crew members arrived at the gate and informed gate personnel that needed to make four seats available for them. In other words, throw four people off the plane.
So the issue is not overbooking (at least in this case) but rather how far and airline can go in prioritizing employees (and profits) over the agreement with a customer to a seat on that flight. It is not really a stretch to say the flight was ready to go and they opened the door and said "before we can leave four of you paying passengers have to get off so make room for four employees."
This was purely an economic decision by United, they were worried about the money it would cost them in cancelling the flight the next morning out of Louisville. As a paying customer of United, that is not my problem, and should not be made my problem.
At every turn United is wrong here. Monoz saying they acted properly and calling the passenger belligerent is simply terrible, again because United made him that way! As Buzz would say, character revealed.
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Problem is it would have violated crew rest for the group bound to Louisville.....they couldn't have flown the next morning if they drove to Louisville. Additionally, my understanding was the crew manning the ORD to SDF was also bumping up against their mandatory crew rest timeline so they felt the pressure to resolve quickly.
Lots of stupid going on in this issue.....but we'll have forgotten about it two weeks from now.
BINGO!!!!!! On all accounts!
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And to be fair, I have seen interviews of some of the passengers who said that the passenger should have left on his own. Again, this is part of the deal when it comes to air travel.
Because he was holding up the flight and making them late. It was most convenient for them that he cooperate and get off, not them!
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The plane was not overbooked.
Correct, I should have stated oversold, overbooked or adding crew to make a flight over-capacity.
I think 03 summed it up best... "Bottom line, somebody made decisions based entirely on what would make life ideal for the business as opposed to the customer (which is United's go to move) and it completely backfired."
And, as JWag points out other airlines do it as well. Could have easily happened with another carrier.
What this incident illustrates is the glaring need for additional consumer protection. And, it becomes an instant case of what not to do in a PR communications crisis.
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Because he was holding up the flight and making them late. It was most convenient for them that he cooperate and get off, not them!
Correct. I would have gotten off if my name was called. I would have been pissed had someone else not gotten off when their name was called.
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Wait, is this true? All the reports I've seen said there wasn't a flight until the next day.
There was a 9PM flight out of ORD. Not sure what the seat map looked like but someone mentioned they checked after seeing the story and it wasn't full.
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All of this points out as well how outdated the airline business is altogether. I saw the CEO of AirBnB on Sunday Today talking to Willie Geist about how technology has zoomed past the airline industry and his company is working up a new model for air transportation. I don't know what it will be, but an Uber/AirBnB/Silicon Valley company will eventually in hopefully the next 20 years, radically change how we travel (it certainly won't be the current airlines). Maybe it's HyperLoop, or something else.
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It was airport police, not United employees. And can we please stop with the "thug"nonsense in this case.
Like dgies, I'm a high mileage United flier and I'm more than willing to admit they f'd up here. Both from a procedural and a PR standpoint. However, the piety of social media and commentors of "this would never happen on Delta/American/etc" is absurd. If this is enough to move your business completely to another airline, you must not fly much. Air travel has its warts, you deal with it and hope the numbers are in your favor when it comes to abnormal events like the travel crew in this case.
I also find it rich that all these passengers were shocked, horrified, clutching their pearls...but nobody would give up their seat for this doctor to get home to whatever medical duties he was claiming. "I CANT BELIEVE THEY FORCED HIM OFF THE PLANE, HES A DOCTOR!...oh no, I have to get back home, I couldn't be bothered to offer my seat, but I made sure I posted video". There was a flight to Louisville something like 2 hours later with plenty of empty seats.
Wow!!!
You think someone's plans should be totally disrupted because United screwed up? NOBODY should have been forced to give up a seat.
And yes, the airport cops acted like thugs. Period.
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Wow!!!
You think someone's plans should be totally disrupted because United screwed up? NOBODY should have been forced to give up a seat.
No one should be forced to give up a seat. The airlines should be forced to buy it back.
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Correct. I would have gotten off if my name was called.
Why????
You are sitting in the seat that you paid for. Why should you be responsible for United's mistake?
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Munoz released this at 3PM CT ...
Statement from United Airlines CEO, Oscar Munoz, on United Express flight 3411
By Oscar Munoz, CEO, United Airlines
April 11, 2017
Dear Team,
The truly horrific event that occurred on this flight has elicited many responses from all of us: outrage, anger, disappointment. I share all of those sentiments, and one above all: my deepest apologies for what happened. Like you, I continue to be disturbed by what happened on this flight and I deeply apologize to the customer forcibly removed and to all the customers aboard. No one should ever be mistreated this way.
I want you to know that we take full responsibility and we will work to make it right.
It's never too late to do the right thing. I have committed to our customers and our employees that we are going to fix what's broken so this never happens again. This will include a thorough review of crew movement, our policies for incentivizing volunteers in these situations, how we handle oversold situations and an examination of how we partner with airport authorities and local law enforcement. We'll communicate the results of our review by April 30th.
I promise you we will do better.
Sincerely,
Oscar
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But remember this is this morning ...
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/10/united-ceo-passenger-disruptive-belligerent.html
According to the letter, which was obtained by CNBC, when crew members first approached the passenger to tell him to leave, he "raised his voice and refused to comply," and each time they asked again "he refused and became more and more disruptive and belligerent."
Crew members "were left with no choice but to call Chicago Aviation Security Officers to assist in removing the customer from the flight," Munoz wrote, and at one point the passenger "continued to resist - running back onto the aircraft in defiance of both our crew and security officials."
Munoz acknowledged to employees that the company could learn lessons from the incident, but said: "I emphatically stand behind all of you."
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All about profits and we will beat the tar out of you if you get in the way of our profits.
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hang on here-
"Dr. David Dao, 69, who was captured in a now-viral video being forcibly dragged off the Louisville-bound flight at Chicago’s O’Hare Airport on Sunday, was working as a doctor specializing in pulmonary disease..."
but...
"The board’s probe into the criminal charges found that Dao became sexually interested in a male patient, Brian Case, whom he gave a physical examination to, including a genital examination..."
so how does this work? take a deep breathe and cough eyyy'ner?
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This article touches on, but doesn't directly address what I think is the biggest issue at play here - the jurisdiction and purpose of the Chicago Aviation Police. They are under the jurisdiction of the Chicago Department of Aviation, which I presume is a publicly funded department? If so, their use of force to uphold a contract for services between an individual and an airline strikes me as extremely problematic. The law goes to tremendous lengths to ensure legal process before agents of any public entity can be called upon to enforce a private contract, and here we have a guy getting dragged out of an airplane and injury being caused to his person upon what could have been no more than an hour of notice to the officers.
Aviation law. The (United) Captain called them in as he has the ultimate say.
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Munoz released this at 3PM CT ...
Statement from United Airlines CEO, Oscar Munoz, on United Express flight 3411
By Oscar Munoz, CEO, United Airlines
April 11, 2017
Dear Team,
The truly horrific event that occurred on this flight has elicited many responses from all of us: outrage, anger, disappointment. I share all of those sentiments, and one above all: my deepest apologies for what happened. Like you, I continue to be disturbed by what happened on this flight and I deeply apologize to the customer forcibly removed and to all the customers aboard. No one should ever be mistreated this way.
I want you to know that we take full responsibility and we will work to make it right.
It's never too late to do the right thing. I have committed to our customers and our employees that we are going to fix what's broken so this never happens again. This will include a thorough review of crew movement, our policies for incentivizing volunteers in these situations, how we handle oversold situations and an examination of how we partner with airport authorities and local law enforcement. We'll communicate the results of our review by April 30th.
I promise you we will do better.
Sincerely,
Oscar
-----
But remember this is this morning ...
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/10/united-ceo-passenger-disruptive-belligerent.html
According to the letter, which was obtained by CNBC, when crew members first approached the passenger to tell him to leave, he "raised his voice and refused to comply," and each time they asked again "he refused and became more and more disruptive and belligerent."
Crew members "were left with no choice but to call Chicago Aviation Security Officers to assist in removing the customer from the flight," Munoz wrote, and at one point the passenger "continued to resist - running back onto the aircraft in defiance of both our crew and security officials."
Munoz acknowledged to employees that the company could learn lessons from the incident, but said: "I emphatically stand behind all of you."
----------------
All about profits and we will beat the tar out of you if you get in the way of our profits.
Without question, from both a human and a PR standpoint, this is what he should have said in his very first public comment on the subject. While I agree with the sentence I highlighted as a general principle - even if you handle a situation horribly, you can and should do everything possible to fix it - I suspect that it might be "too late" for Munoz.
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Why????
You are sitting in the seat that you paid for. Why should you be responsible for United's mistake?
Because that's the contract I legally agreed to.
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No one should be forced to give up a seat. The airlines should be forced to buy it back.
I'm really surprised United didn't go with the even easier option. If you need 4 seats, 3 folks have already "agreed" to get off the plane, and the 4th person selected says "no" - Just press the magic selection button again to find your 4th.
This shouldn't have been this hard.
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Because that's the contract I legally agreed to.
The article I quoted debunks that. The contract was good only in the waiting area, not once they entered the plane.
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Without question, from both a human and a PR standpoint, this is what he should have said in his very first public comment on the subject. While I agree with the sentence I highlighted as a general principle - even if you handle a situation horribly, you can and should do everything possible to fix it - I suspect that it might be "too late" for Munoz.
A day late a billion in market cap short, ai-na?
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Because that's the contract I legally agreed to.
Actually it is not as United appears to not have followed government rules on this.
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Without question, from both a human and a PR standpoint, this is what he should have said in his very first public comment on the subject. While I agree with the sentence I highlighted as a general principle - even if you handle a situation horribly, you can and should do everything possible to fix it - I suspect that it might be "too late" for Munoz.
Agree but his first instinct was to protect the flawed and illegal procedures United employed. It was only after social media blew up on him for 36 hours that he saw the light. So makes one wonder how genuine this was and whether or not he "gets it" and will behave this way in similar way the next time?
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The article I quoted debunks that. The contract was good only in the waiting area, not once they entered the plane.
I'm not sure that I'd concede it "debunks" it, but certainly calls it into question. Fact is, "denied boarding" is never defined. Common sense suggests that you're correct. Lawyers wrote the agreement and will become further involved soon, so there is no compelling reason to think that common sense will prevail. Some have suggested that once he took his seat, the "denied boarding" rules are out the window and the "refusal of transport" rules come into play.
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hang on here-
"Dr. David Dao, 69, who was captured in a now-viral video being forcibly dragged off the Louisville-bound flight at Chicago’s O’Hare Airport on Sunday, was working as a doctor specializing in pulmonary disease..."
but...
"The board’s probe into the criminal charges found that Dao became sexually interested in a male patient, Brian Case, whom he gave a physical examination to, including a genital examination..."
Sounds like 4never.. "you opened up and said 'ahhh', so now I will do the same"
so how does this work? take a deep breathe and cough eyyy'ner?
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I'm not sure that I'd concede it "debunks" it, but certainly calls it into question. Fact is, "denied boarding" is never defined. Common sense suggests that you're correct. Lawyers wrote the agreement and will become further involved soon, so there is no compelling reason to think that common sense will prevail. Some have suggested that once he took his seat, the "denied boarding" rules are out the window and the "refusal of transport" rules come into play.
Again...
There’s another wrinkle. Rule 25 deals almost entirely with passengers denied boarding—in other words, people who never get on a plane. But in the Chicago incident, the passenger had already boarded when United employees told him he had to get off. Again, unless United has an unpublished policy dealing with this scenario, it’s not addressed in the contract of carriage. So even if United followed its own procedures, it would have violated government rules.
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All of this points out as well how outdated the airline business is altogether. I saw the CEO of AirBnB on Sunday Today talking to Willie Geist about how technology has zoomed past the airline industry and his company is working up a new model for air transportation. I don't know what it will be, but an Uber/AirBnB/Silicon Valley company will eventually in hopefully the next 20 years, radically change how we travel (it certainly won't be the current airlines). Maybe it's HyperLoop, or something else.
Dish, I'm no apologist for the airlines. God knows, I've been sh*t on enough by all of the major carriers to write a book. I travel a lot and I see the best and worst of them.
You have the airline system you want. Once upon a time, airlines provided customer service. Coach seats were more comfortable and had more leg room. Food was at least edible and it came with the ticket in both first class and coach. Flight attendants were, well, attentive and there was open seats more often than not so that incidents like Sunday's didn't happen.
But you want cheap airfare. You want the $99 round-trip from ORD to LGA. Your corporate travel department would strap you to a wing if they thought they could save $5.00. You get your airfare but with it comes the end of the personal service. You pay for baggage, bad food, preferable seats and God knows what else because it is a cat and mouse game to the bottom between the airline that has to serve shareholders and customers who think Spirit Airlines is the next great thing.
Amid all this comes margin squeeze. It means there are far fewer people who are equipped to make decisions. It means lines are long, people are short and training sucks. But the fact remains that the three legacy carriers move between 400,000 and 500,000 persons a day globally. And they have to do so on razor thin margins that are sensitive to everything from a small change in oil prices to slight upticks in interest rates. Oh, and don't forget some of the toughest and most important safety regulations in the world affect the airline industry. For despite it all, this is a pretty heavily regulated industry and with good reason. We've haven't had a serious airline accident in the United States in several years. The last one I recall was when a Korean Airlines jet missed the runway at SFO because of an inexperienced pilot.
I'm sure some dunderhead at Uber, Lyft or even Amtrak thinks they can do a better job. And I'm sure things will evolve in time. But the operation of a modern airline is a just a bit more sophisticated than putting a couple of cars driven by housewives on the streets of Monterrey, CA.
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Again...
Yeah, I read it. And the Yahoo writer may be correct, I really don't know. It hinges on the definition of the phrase "denied boarding." The Yahoo writer has assumed -- maybe correctly -- that "denied boarding" means "people who never get on a plane." If he's right, then it seems there's a violation. If he's wrong, then it's probably not. He helpfully provides the "in other words, people who never get on a plan" but offers nothing in support of that definition. To me, it reads like an assumption, but perhaps there is something somewhere that provides that "denied boarding" applies only to "people who never get on a plane." I agree that this would be the common understanding of the term, but that doesn't mean it is right in this context. I've read enough government regulations and contracts to know that common sense understanding of terms is not necessarily correct. If the term "denied boarding" includes someone who actually makes his way onto the aircraft before being bumped, then I'm not sure he's right.
Unnecessary disclaimer: I think United screwed this up terribly, and I'm not defending their actions. I'm merely saying that I'm not necessarily convinced that this Yahoo! reporter is correct. And I'm not convinced that he's not.
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I think a more interesting question, when considering the "denied boarding" issue is whether that rule even applies. The rule -- and the entire bumping process -- only applies on "oversold" flights. Unlike "denied boarding," that is a defined term: "Oversold flight means a flight where there are more Passengers holding valid confirmed Tickets that check-in for the flight within the prescribed check-in time than there are available seats" This wasn't an oversold flight.
Honestly, I'm not entirely sure where that leaves us. Whether it's the "refusal of transport" rule, or something else entirely.
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http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2017/04/11/united-denied-boarding-illegal/
The passenger wasn’t denied boarding — he had a confirmed seat, and was allowed to board and take that seat.
Later they come onboard and asked him to get off the plane. At that point that’s no longer being denied boarding, but rather being refused transport. United’s contract of carriage addresses both of these situations:
Here’s the contract of carriage regarding denied boarding compensation
Here’s the contract of carriage regarding refusal to transport
The contract of carriage lists a bunch of reasons that the airline can refuse transport to someone, though a flight being oversold after a passenger has boarded isn’t one of them. In looking at the Department of Transportation regulations, I don’t see anything that clarifies how they define “denied boarding.”
In light of that, it sure seems like this was a case of refusal to transport, rather than a case of denied boarding, since the passenger wasn’t denied boarding. If this was a refusal to transport case, then United had no legal grounds on which to refuse him transport, based on the contract of carriage.
If that’s the case, did United use police force to incorrectly enforce a contract?
When this story first emerged it sure seemed to me like United may have technically been within their rights to refuse this passenger transport, but even that isn’t looking likely at this point.
It would seem to me that once passengers have boarded, the only way to have them get off the plane is through a voluntary system, by offering compensation that they agree to. Without that, this isn’t a denied boarding case, but rather a refusal to transport case.
Did United Airlines Violate Its Own Contract By Forcing That Passenger Off The Plane?
A review of United's "Contract of Carriage" suggests that the airline carrier violated its own rules when it forcibly removed a passenger to make room for United employees.
https://thefederalist.com/2017/04/11/did-united-airlines-violate-its-own-contract-by-forcing-that-passenger-off-the-plane/
“On Sunday, April 9, after United Express Flight 3411 was fully boarded,” United CEO Oscar Munoz wrote, “United’s gate agents were approached by crewmembers that were told they needed to board the flight.”
“We sought volunteers and then followed our involuntary denial of boarding process (including offering up to $1,000 in compensation) and when we approached one of these passengers to explain apologetically that he was being denied boarding, he raised his voice and refused to comply with crew member instructions,” Munoz wrote.
That’s where the wheels start to come off the United bus. To understand why, you need only have a rudimentary understanding of the English language. In statement one, Munoz notes that the flight was fully boarded. In statement two, Munoz then declares that the man was only removed because United employees were following their “involuntary denial of boarding process.” How, exactly, does one follow a denial of boarding process after a flight is “fully boarded?”
Granted, I am only a common non-lawyer, non-airline employee, but I don’t understand how one can be denied boarding after a flight is fully boarded. It seems to me like the involuntary denial of boarding ship has probably sailed at that point, and the operation has instead advanced to the “forced disembarkation” stage of airline crisis management.
But that’s not all. United’s ticket contract also lists criteria for selecting passengers to whom boarding should be involuntarily denied:
The priority of all other confirmed passengers may be determined based on a passenger’s fare class, itinerary, status of frequent flyer program membership, and the time in which the passenger presents him/herself for check-in without advanced seat assignment.
Were any of these criteria used on Monday’s flight? Not according to any news that has been reported thus far. Instead, individuals who were targeted for removal were randomly selected by the airline, even though “random selection” is not a criterion included in United’s contract terms. Judging by the clear language of United’s terms and policies, it appears as though the carrier actually violated its own rules in its attempt to remove a ticketed passenger from the plane to make room for a handful of United employees.
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Dish, I'm no apologist for the airlines. God knows, I've been sh*t on enough by all of the major carriers to write a book. I travel a lot and I see the best and worst of them.
You have the airline system you want. Once upon a time, airlines provided customer service. Coach seats were more comfortable and had more leg room. Food was at least edible and it came with the ticket in both first class and coach. Flight attendants were, well, attentive and there was open seats more often than not so that incidents like Sunday's didn't happen.
But you want cheap airfare. You want the $99 round-trip from ORD to LGA. Your corporate travel department would strap you to a wing if they thought they could save $5.00. You get your airfare but with it comes the end of the personal service. You pay for baggage, bad food, preferable seats and God knows what else because it is a cat and mouse game to the bottom between the airline that has to serve shareholders and customers who think Spirit Airlines is the next great thing.
Amid all this comes margin squeeze. It means there are far fewer people who are equipped to make decisions. It means lines are long, people are short and training sucks. But the fact remains that the three legacy carriers move between 400,000 and 500,000 persons a day globally. And they have to do so on razor thin margins that are sensitive to everything from a small change in oil prices to slight upticks in interest rates. Oh, and don't forget some of the toughest and most important safety regulations in the world affect the airline industry. For despite it all, this is a pretty heavily regulated industry and with good reason. We've haven't had a serious airline accident in the United States in several years. The last one I recall was when a Korean Airlines jet missed the runway at SFO because of an inexperienced pilot.
I'm sure some dunderhead at Uber, Lyft or even Amtrak thinks they can do a better job. And I'm sure things will evolve in time. But the operation of a modern airline is a just a bit more sophisticated than putting a couple of cars driven by housewives on the streets of Monterrey, CA.
I hear ya, and I totally understand your point. As someone who's on a United flight every other week, all of what you said is 100% true. However, there's no industry more vulnerable to a massive upheaval than the airline industry. It'll take years to figure out, with safety/regulatory approval, but I believe something is coming. It may be HyperLoop, but the way we travel great distances in short time will change somehow.
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The only things that can change the airline industry are:
1. Reregulation
2. Customers willing to not pay the cheapest fare possible.
Neither will happen anytime soon.
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I hear ya, and I totally understand your point. As someone who's on a United flight every other week, all of what you said is 100% true. However, there's no industry more vulnerable to a massive upheaval than the airline industry. It'll take years to figure out, with safety/regulatory approval, but I believe something is coming. It may be HyperLoop, but the way we travel great distances in short time will change somehow.
That will be EXTREMELY difficult to do. Changing an industry involves fighting the giants that already occupy the space. Almost always, those giants have significantly more lobbying power and legal power than the up-and-comers. And, almost always, those giants that occupy will do everything they can to fight off any change that threatens their bottom-line. We're a certainly a great society in that sense, passively allowing for stifling of advancement.
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Video on airline costs.
https://www.youtube.com/v/6Oe8T3AvydU
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Here is how the industry will change.
https://jetsmarter.com/
Private jet service for as low as $5,000 (plus other fees)
OUR BUSINESS MODEL EXPLAINED
We do more than just private charters.
It’s our innovative shared flight services, advanced mobile technology, and members-only approach that set us apart. And the more members who join, the better our service gets.
First, we give members access to empty seats – what we call JetDeals – and establish fixed routes between major cities, called JetShuttles.
The initial flight availability from new JetDeals and JetShuttles then attracts new members.
When popular routes reach critical mass, we allow members to start creating on-demand SharedCharter flights.
The balance of SharedCharter seats are then offered as new JetShuttles and JetDeals, and the cycle repeats.
In effect, our members drive the creation of new routes and flight frequency. We then partner with additional aircraft operators to meet the increased demand of our growing community.
------------------
The point is technology is driving the cost of private jet travel down, way down. this cuts out the most important commercial air customer, the high-end consumer and business traveler. Should they leave for private planes (for the 14,000 airports that private planes can land on) this will destroy the commerical airlines, turning them into the old grayhound terminals.
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Here is how the industry will change.
https://jetsmarter.com/
Private jet service for as low as $5,000 (plus other fees)
OUR BUSINESS MODEL EXPLAINED
We do more than just private charters.
It’s our innovative shared flight services, advanced mobile technology, and members-only approach that set us apart. And the more members who join, the better our service gets.
First, we give members access to empty seats – what we call JetDeals – and establish fixed routes between major cities, called JetShuttles.
The initial flight availability from new JetDeals and JetShuttles then attracts new members.
When popular routes reach critical mass, we allow members to start creating on-demand SharedCharter flights.
The balance of SharedCharter seats are then offered as new JetShuttles and JetDeals, and the cycle repeats.
In effect, our members drive the creation of new routes and flight frequency. We then partner with additional aircraft operators to meet the increased demand of our growing community.
------------------
The point is technology is driving the cost of private jet travel down, way down. this cuts out the most important commercial air customer, the high-end consumer and business traveler. Should they leave for private planes (for the 14,000 airports that private planes can land on) this will destroy the commerical airlines, turning them into the old grayhound terminals.
Um. What middle class family of 5 can afford a 5k flight?
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http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2017/04/11/united-denied-boarding-illegal/
The passenger wasn’t denied boarding — he had a confirmed seat, and was allowed to board and take that seat.
Later they come onboard and asked him to get off the plane. At that point that’s no longer being denied boarding, but rather being refused transport. United’s contract of carriage addresses both of these situations:
Here’s the contract of carriage regarding denied boarding compensation
Here’s the contract of carriage regarding refusal to transport
The contract of carriage lists a bunch of reasons that the airline can refuse transport to someone, though a flight being oversold after a passenger has boarded isn’t one of them. In looking at the Department of Transportation regulations, I don’t see anything that clarifies how they define “denied boarding.”
In light of that, it sure seems like this was a case of refusal to transport, rather than a case of denied boarding, since the passenger wasn’t denied boarding. If this was a refusal to transport case, then United had no legal grounds on which to refuse him transport, based on the contract of carriage.
If that’s the case, did United use police force to incorrectly enforce a contract?
When this story first emerged it sure seemed to me like United may have technically been within their rights to refuse this passenger transport, but even that isn’t looking likely at this point.
It would seem to me that once passengers have boarded, the only way to have them get off the plane is through a voluntary system, by offering compensation that they agree to. Without that, this isn’t a denied boarding case, but rather a refusal to transport case.
Did United Airlines Violate Its Own Contract By Forcing That Passenger Off The Plane?
A review of United's "Contract of Carriage" suggests that the airline carrier violated its own rules when it forcibly removed a passenger to make room for United employees.
https://thefederalist.com/2017/04/11/did-united-airlines-violate-its-own-contract-by-forcing-that-passenger-off-the-plane/
“On Sunday, April 9, after United Express Flight 3411 was fully boarded,” United CEO Oscar Munoz wrote, “United’s gate agents were approached by crewmembers that were told they needed to board the flight.”
“We sought volunteers and then followed our involuntary denial of boarding process (including offering up to $1,000 in compensation) and when we approached one of these passengers to explain apologetically that he was being denied boarding, he raised his voice and refused to comply with crew member instructions,” Munoz wrote.
That’s where the wheels start to come off the United bus. To understand why, you need only have a rudimentary understanding of the English language. In statement one, Munoz notes that the flight was fully boarded. In statement two, Munoz then declares that the man was only removed because United employees were following their “involuntary denial of boarding process.” How, exactly, does one follow a denial of boarding process after a flight is “fully boarded?”
Granted, I am only a common non-lawyer, non-airline employee, but I don’t understand how one can be denied boarding after a flight is fully boarded. It seems to me like the involuntary denial of boarding ship has probably sailed at that point, and the operation has instead advanced to the “forced disembarkation” stage of airline crisis management.
But that’s not all. United’s ticket contract also lists criteria for selecting passengers to whom boarding should be involuntarily denied:
The priority of all other confirmed passengers may be determined based on a passenger’s fare class, itinerary, status of frequent flyer program membership, and the time in which the passenger presents him/herself for check-in without advanced seat assignment.
Were any of these criteria used on Monday’s flight? Not according to any news that has been reported thus far. Instead, individuals who were targeted for removal were randomly selected by the airline, even though “random selection” is not a criterion included in United’s contract terms. Judging by the clear language of United’s terms and policies, it appears as though the carrier actually violated its own rules in its attempt to remove a ticketed passenger from the plane to make room for a handful of United employees.
Based on what I've read and heard (including the article you posted and a few others), I'm inclined to agree that this is a "refusal to transport" issue and not a "denied boarding" issue. However, I disagree with your statement, "It would seem to me that once passengers have boarded, the only way to have them get off the plane is through a voluntary system, by offering compensation that they agree to." Unless of course, you mean except in cases that qualify under the "refusal to transport" section. Because once the refusal to transport rules come into play, I think it's pretty obvious that the passengers can be forcibly removed. I have little doubt that United will argue that at least one of those reasons to refuse transport is in play. But at this point, all they're really going to be doing is trying to create some leverage to remove a zero from the amount they pay this guy. This is going to be expensive, and I suspect now that they've muzzled Munoz they've got someone calling the shots that realizes that attacking the passenger is not a winning strategy.
The only interesting "new" thing I heard about the case recently was that the doctor and his wife had agreed to accept the $800 and take the next flight, but then changed their mind and went on the plane. Has anyone else heard that? There has been so much effort to discredit the passenger that I'm not inclined to believe this unless confirmed. If that is true, depending upon how far down that path they got, it could change the legalities under the contract (i.e., if he was no longer a ticketed passenger). Frankly, I'd be amazed if that was the case because it would be a pretty important fact left out of the initial reporting. And even if it is true, United screwed this up horribly.
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There is a shuttle system running between Cleveland and Cincinnati that several of my colleagues have used that is really nice. They sell individuals seats on a 20-30 seat private jet. It flies out of a small airport and runs several times a day. Seats are in the $300-400 range -- not cheap, but not bad at all. It flies out of the small executive commuter airports; there is no TSA; no baggage fees; no parking fees; and drinks and snacks. Apparently it's categorized as a "public charter." I wasn't aware of this category. The people I've talked that have used it absolutely love it.
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United First class passenger threatened with handcuffs. I wonder if they would be fuzzy furry? These stories keep popping up...
http://www.latimes.com/business/lazarus/la-fi-lazarus-united-low-priority-passenger-20170412-story.html
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Um. What middle class family of 5 can afford a 5k flight?
They cannot and they are not the intended audience. As I noted above, the audience is the upper end that is price insensitive, buys club membership and has status on the airlines. It is also intended for the price insensitive business traveler.
If private air travel cost come down enough and this takes off among high-profit customers, it kills the commercial carriers, all that is left is the low margin middle-class flyer meaning the airline's profitability goes down further and the current business model gets thrown into chaos.
And regarding who can afford $5,000? Current private jet travel costs runs about $3,000 to $5,000/hour and you paid several hundred thousand for the privilege of paying these hourly fees. (flight from Chicago Executive in Wheeling to New Jersey Teterboro can run $15k to $20k spread between 6 to 8 seats). So Jet Smarter, if it works, is collapsing that price structure to a point and a lot more people can afford it.
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United First class passenger threatened with handcuffs. I wonder if they would be fuzzy furry? These stories keep popping up...
http://www.latimes.com/business/lazarus/la-fi-lazarus-united-low-priority-passenger-20170412-story.html
As a regular United first class passenger, I've never been threatened with handcuffs, furry or otherwise.
There is a reason for this. United makes serious money off people like me and MUDish, who travel very frequently. We tend to be treated better than the common folk, or General Members of Mileage Plus, as United calls them. For example, it was amazing what happened with my wife after I finished logging my first million miles on United.
Once you are a million mile flier, you are allowed to designate one person in your household to receive your Premier Status. At that point, my wife too was a 1K. Before, they treated her like cattle. Suddenly, she was somebody and gate agents, ticket agents and assorted United personnel suddenly noticed her. She had almost too much service.
At some point, if you're able to skim off high value passengers from the airlines, then they'll collapse. That's travel as long as we've known it. The airplanes simply aren't big enough to cram enough steerage in (though they've tried) to make a low cost option consistently successful.
My final thought on this whole incident though was this: There is a belief that if you yell loud enough and you become dis-temperate enough and make a big enough jackass of yourself, you will get what you want from the airlines. I can't judge a man's motives but I gotta believe that when the doctor told he was the lonesome loser, he got stubborn and started a hissyfit hoping the airline would look somewhere else. Heck, it usually works and as Machiavelli said....
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They cannot and they are not the intended audience. As I noted above, the audience is the upper end that is price insensitive, buys club membership and has status on the airlines. It is also intended for the price insensitive business traveler.
If private air travel cost come down enough and this takes off among high-profit customers, it kills the commercial carriers, all that is left is the low margin middle-class flyer meaning the airline's profitability goes down further and the current business model gets thrown into chaos.
And regarding who can afford $5,000? Current private jet travel costs runs about $3,000 to $5,000/hour and you paid several hundred thousand for the privilege of paying these hourly fees. (flight from Chicago Executive in Wheeling to New Jersey Teterboro can run $15k to $20k spread between 6 to 8 seats). So Jet Smarter, if it works, is collapsing that price structure to a point and a lot more people can afford it.
Agreed they can't but....say a family of 5 and another family of 4 or 5 are going on vacation together. $7,000 or so divided by 10 people suddenly doesn't seem that outrageous considering you are likely on a direct flight with people you know and don't have to worry about all the other hassles of regular airline travel.
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My final thought on this whole incident though was this: There is a belief that if you yell loud enough and you become dis-temperate enough and make a big enough jackass of yourself, you will get what you want from the airlines. I can't judge a man's motives but I gotta believe that when the doctor told he was the lonesome loser, he got stubborn and started a hissyfit hoping the airline would look somewhere else. Heck, it usually works and as Machiavelli said....
Yes. Combine some fake cops with a convicted felon who is pissed off and the end result will often be bad.
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Yes. Combine some fake cops with a convicted felon who is pissed off and the end result will often be bad.
Especially when the airline pissed off the felon in the first place and was not forthright with the fake cop about why he was pissed and why they wanted the fake cop to physically remove him from the plane.
Again, pissing people off and then calling the cops to beat them up because they got pissed is arguably the single worst business strategy ever invented.
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Here is how the industry will change.
https://jetsmarter.com/
Private jet service for as low as $5,000 (plus other fees)
OUR BUSINESS MODEL EXPLAINED
We do more than just private charters.
It’s our innovative shared flight services, advanced mobile technology, and members-only approach that set us apart. And the more members who join, the better our service gets.
First, we give members access to empty seats – what we call JetDeals – and establish fixed routes between major cities, called JetShuttles.
The initial flight availability from new JetDeals and JetShuttles then attracts new members.
When popular routes reach critical mass, we allow members to start creating on-demand SharedCharter flights.
The balance of SharedCharter seats are then offered as new JetShuttles and JetDeals, and the cycle repeats.
In effect, our members drive the creation of new routes and flight frequency. We then partner with additional aircraft operators to meet the increased demand of our growing community.
------------------
The point is technology is driving the cost of private jet travel down, way down. this cuts out the most important commercial air customer, the high-end consumer and business traveler. Should they leave for private planes (for the 14,000 airports that private planes can land on) this will destroy the commerical airlines, turning them into the old grayhound terminals.
I like John Cochrane's take:
The one economic point that I haven't seen: the whole issue also comes down to airlines' use of personalized tickets to price discriminate. (And most of the TSA's job is to enforce that price discrimination by making sure you are the name on the ticket.) If you could resell tickets, the problem would go away. Then the airline must sell only as many tickets as there are seats on the plane, as concerts do.
http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2017/04/united.html
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Regarding customer service, after they beat him and dragged him off the plane, they made everyone deplane so they could clean up the blood. That delayed the flight another two hours.
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Yes. Combine some fake cops with a convicted felon who is pissed off and the end result will often be bad.
They're actually sworn and certified police officers. They have to go through the academy, pass the state certification exam, etc. They just don't work under the auspices of the Chicago Police Department, and they aren't armed with guns, the latter of which has been debated over for more than a decade.
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As a regular United first class passenger, I've never been threatened with handcuffs, furry or otherwise.
There is a reason for this. United makes serious money off people like me and MUDish, who travel very frequently. We tend to be treated better than the common folk, or General Members of Mileage Plus, as United calls them. For example, it was amazing what happened with my wife after I finished logging my first million miles on United.
Once you are a million mile flier, you are allowed to designate one person in your household to receive your Premier Status. At that point, my wife too was a 1K. Before, they treated her like cattle. Suddenly, she was somebody and gate agents, ticket agents and assorted United personnel suddenly noticed her. She had almost too much service.
At some point, if you're able to skim off high value passengers from the airlines, then they'll collapse. That's travel as long as we've known it. The airplanes simply aren't big enough to cram enough steerage in (though they've tried) to make a low cost option consistently successful.
My final thought on this whole incident though was this: There is a belief that if you yell loud enough and you become dis-temperate enough and make a big enough jackass of yourself, you will get what you want from the airlines. I can't judge a man's motives but I gotta believe that when the doctor told he was the lonesome loser, he got stubborn and started a hissyfit hoping the airline would look somewhere else. Heck, it usually works and as Machiavelli said....
I'm not Global Services level (my father is), I'm only Gold with United, but to DG's point, how they treat their big money customers is exceptional (because they have to). About a month ago, I flew back from Austin, not many flights direct, and instead of waiting for a 7:30pm flight, I was able to show up literally a minute before a 1:15pm flight. I got on the Standby list, there were already 10 people on that list, and not only did I get a seat first, I got an Economy Plus window with middle seat open. My point being is I would have sat middle seat next to the crapper to get on that earlier flight, and even I didn't think it was fair that I got better treatment than the 10 people who showed up for standby ahead of me.
United/All Airlines don't care about the family of 5 flying once a year to Orlando at the cheapest rate they can find, they absolutely do not care about them.
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The point is technology is driving the cost of private jet travel down, way down. this cuts out the most important commercial air customer, the high-end consumer and business traveler. Should they leave for private planes (for the 14,000 airports that private planes can land on) this will destroy the commerical airlines, turning them into the old grayhound terminals.
It's not true that the high-end consumer and business traveler is the most important customer for commercial airlines. Spirit and Frontier *shudder* have built hugely profitable airlines on the idea that regular consumers will fly with them despite lacking amenities (or even moderately comfortable seats) because they're cheap. Now, the business traveler is the most important customer to SOME airlines, like United, AA, and Delta, but even that is starting to change as they observe the profitability in cheap, stripped service. To wit, AA and Delta have both introduced "super-economy" tickets that are cheaper and offer little in the way of amenities. And they'll need to, because you're correct that private jet travel is going to edge in on their high-end consumer business.
As someone who travels a lot for work and pleasure, I've seen how the big carriers try to have it both ways. But the premium product isn't that great on any of them (United's domestic first crams in a ton of seats nowadays and don't get me started on their 777 international product) while the "super economy" isn't normally cheap enough to compete with the ultra low cost carriers. My bet is that Spirit and Frontier continue to flourish, and United, AA, and Delta eventually become more and more like ultra low cost carriers. Meanwhile, business travelers/high-end consumers will move to private jet travel.
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It's not true that the high-end consumer and business traveler is the most important customer for commercial airlines. Spirit and Frontier *shudder* have built hugely profitable airlines on the idea that regular consumers will fly with them despite lacking amenities (or even moderately comfortable seats) because they're cheap. Now, the business traveler is the most important customer to SOME airlines, like United, AA, and Delta, but even that is starting to change as they observe the profitability in cheap, stripped service. To wit, AA and Delta have both introduced "super-economy" tickets that are cheaper and offer little in the way of amenities. And they'll need to, because you're correct that private jet travel is going to edge in on their high-end consumer business.
As someone who travels a lot for work and pleasure, I've seen how the big carriers try to have it both ways. But the premium product isn't that great on any of them (United's domestic first crams in a ton of seats nowadays and don't get me started on their 777 international product) while the "super economy" isn't normally cheap enough to compete with the ultra low cost carriers. My bet is that Spirit and Frontier continue to flourish, and United, AA, and Delta eventually become more and more like ultra low cost carriers. Meanwhile, business travelers/high-end consumers will move to private jet travel.
Market Capitalization
Spirit $3.7 billion
United $22 billion
American $23 billion
Delta $33 billion
Southwest $34 billion
Spirit is a rounding error. It is so small it does not even qualify to be in the Russell 2000. Frontier, privately owned is who knows if it is profitable or how big.
Cut out the high end flyer and you're left with a smaller than small cap company.
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More like six, but I am sure no one thought outside the box on this one.
While driving might seem to have been a reasonable alternative I am fairly certain that a six hour drive would have essentially negated their operational effectiveness due to crew rest requirements. I would also guess that APA/ALPA has very strict rules concerning crew repo procedures that would prohibit making cockpit crew drive anywhere, much less for 6 hours.
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Market Capitalization
Spirit $3.7 billion
United $22 billion
American $23 billion
Delta $33 billion
Southwest $34 billion
Cut out the high end flyer and you're left with a smaller than small cap company.
All this discussion about "business" travelers, and nobody's mentioned southwest. My company loves them - no change fees/cancel fees - just rebook for whatever is most convenient. I love them - no baggage fees, good points credit card, treat everyone with respect. The only thing "priority" gets you is better boarding (which I do enjoy...). But once you're on the plane, you're all one happy class of herded cattle.
They're at the top of the market cap for a GOOD reason.
Yes, they overbook too. But I've never seen them fail to resolve that situation BEFORE boarding.
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Spirit and Frontier *shudder*...
This got my attention. We're considering Alligiant for a flight in June. The price is very good. Honest question if anyone here has experience: how bad is it?
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Flying on any American flag carrier is a brutal Bataan Death March experience. Having lived in Asia for a couple decades I can state unequivocally that air travel does not have to be such an ordeal. SG. CX, TG, EK, and NH offer superlative service.
When I was with GE we were limited to flights on airlines that used GE power plants. At the time CX used Rolls Royce Trents exclusively. Not being able to fly in and out of Kai Tak on CX was absurd and I routinely signed off on CX flights for my team in Hong Kong.
Flying long haul on United or Northworst was 10-14 hours of sheer hell. The cabin crew were 50+ year old battle axes who needed to grease their thighs to make their way down the aisles. Their idea of service was to loiter in the galley like water buffalo grazing on the leftover business class meals. Compare that with the Asian flag carriers where young, lithe cabin crew delivered exquisite service with impeccable precision.
Fortunately, I rarely fly commercial as I can check out twin engine aircraft from a nearby military aero club. Not only do I give the whole TSA nightmare a miss but I am able to avoid the malodorous hordes of travelers and boorish airline staff while shaving hours off of each trip at a fraction of the cost.
We recently went skiing at Taos where 4 commercial tix would have cost almost $3,000 and taken almost 12 hours each way including the drive from ABQ. Instead, I checked out a Baron for just over $300 and flew straight into Taos Regional in about 4 hours. But the best part was avoiding the whole nightmare of air travel in America.
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This got my attention. We're considering Alligiant for a flight in June. The price is very good. Honest question if anyone here has experience: how bad is it?
It really depends. For me, the math often favors big carriers because if I fly with them, I enjoy perks like free premium econ and possible first class upgrades, dedicated customer service, etc. Plus, I'm way deep into the miles game and also normally need wi-fi for work (lack of wi-fi is my chief issue with the ultra low cost carriers). If all that weren't the case, I don't think a big carrier would be too different from an ultra low cost carrier. Indeed, the actual in-flight experience in coach on United and on Spirit is similar.
So, I think the rule should be this: after adding up all the extras (luggage, seat choice, etc.), if Allegiant/Spirit/Frontier is still cheaper, then do it. If it's a long flight, pay the extra coin for an exit row. Then load up ye olde tablet with a few episodes of "Stranger Things" and you'll be fine.
Edit: and to answer your specific question, I flew Allegiant once a few years ago and it was totally OK.
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This got my attention. We're considering Alligiant for a flight in June. The price is very good. Honest question if anyone here has experience: how bad is it?
Go check Seat Guru. Check out the seat pitch and decide whether you can fit. They'll give you the pitch in inches.
Hint: Anything below 30" is not fit for human habitation. You better hope the woman sitting next to your is gorgeous and likes close company!
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It's not true that the high-end consumer and business traveler is the most important customer for commercial airlines. Spirit and Frontier *shudder* have built hugely profitable airlines on the idea that regular consumers will fly with them despite lacking amenities (or even moderately comfortable seats) because they're cheap.
Let's debunk this one once and for all:
-- Spirit and Frontier fly point to point between generally large cities. You'll see Frontier on Denver/Milwaukee. Hell will freeze over before you see them in Fargo.
-- Hugely profitable in the airline industry? I don't think so. No one is hugely profitable in airlines. It was once said about airlines: "Want to know how to be a millionaire? Be a billionaire and invest in airlines!"
If you want three flights a day from ORD to MCO, yeah, the ultra-low cost carriers make sense. They are uncomfortable as hell (Satan reportedly avoids them like they're a good deed or something -- he flies United these days) and their service rules really don't favor the passenger. Ever try to get your money back for any reason and... uggghhh
But keep in mind how they do it. For those of you who have a sense of business ethics, they get their low costs by hiring at the lowest possible rate, using green pilots and having a level of customer service that would make even Walmart blush with embarrassment. Ask a Spirit flight attendant what a living wage is and she might tell you enough to get out of Mom & Dad's basement. And she's probably 40!
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Frictionless tubes (in the way future) and self driving cars (In the near ~10year future) will kill the airlines for all but NEED TO BE THERE IN 3 HOURS travelers.
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Frontier once cancelled a return flight about a week before my vacation. Ended up returning on a red eye. The reason I was given: They were starting there fall routes that day. Would have been nice to know a few months earlier when I bought the tickets. So I will never pay to fly Frontier again.
SWA has been a good experience for me. If you're traveling with young kids make sure to ask for the plane shaped cookies. They only hand out peanuts and pretzels otherwise.
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Let's debunk this one once and for all:
-- Spirit and Frontier fly point to point between generally large cities. You'll see Frontier on Denver/Milwaukee. Hell will freeze over before you see them in Fargo.
-- Hugely profitable in the airline industry? I don't think so. No one is hugely profitable in airlines. It was once said about airlines: "Want to know how to be a millionaire? Be a billionaire and invest in airlines!"
If you want three flights a day from ORD to MCO, yeah, the ultra-low cost carriers make sense. They are uncomfortable as hell (Satan reportedly avoids them like they're a good deed or something -- he flies United these days) and their service rules really don't favor the passenger. Ever try to get your money back for any reason and... uggghhh
But keep in mind how they do it. For those of you who have a sense of business ethics, they get their low costs by hiring at the lowest possible rate, using green pilots and having a level of customer service that would make even Walmart blush with embarrassment. Ask a Spirit flight attendant what a living wage is and she might tell you enough to get out of Mom & Dad's basement. And she's probably 40!
Um, Allegiant, Spirit, and Frontier are three of the five most profitable airlines in the U.S. I didn't say they accomplished their profits ethically.
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All this discussion about "business" travelers, and nobody's mentioned southwest. My company loves them - no change fees/cancel fees - just rebook for whatever is most convenient. I love them - no baggage fees, good points credit card, treat everyone with respect. The only thing "priority" gets you is better boarding (which I do enjoy...). But once you're on the plane, you're all one happy class of herded cattle.
They're at the top of the market cap for a GOOD reason.
Yes, they overbook too. But I've never seen them fail to resolve that situation BEFORE boarding.
i am in full agreement here as i haven't flown anything but southwest with a few horrible exceptions(american) and only because i had no other choice. one was my son's destination wedding to dominican republic-got there a day late and we were supposed to be there first. and the other was... american and the pilots all called in "sick" i was supposed to be home by noon that day...try the other noon
southwest seems like luxury compared to those experiences and i fly on average about 1-2 x per month
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United just announced it will issue refunds to all passengers on the flight.
The least they could do. No doubt, the fact that it was a small plane made this an easier decision for them.
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All this talk of Southwest being great, they boot passengers more than any other airline.
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All this talk of Southwest being great, they boot passengers more than any other airline.
Source?
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i am in full agreement here as i haven't flown anything but southwest with a few horrible exceptions(american) and only because i had no other choice. one was my son's destination wedding to dominican republic-got there a day late and we were supposed to be there first. and the other was... american and the pilots all called in "sick" i was supposed to be home by noon that day...try the other noon
southwest seems like luxury compared to those experiences and i fly on average about 1-2 x per month
Too late for your wedding, but I am guessing you know that Southwest flies to Punta Cana now.
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All this talk of Southwest being great, they boot passengers more than any other airline.
Source. Plus, define "boot". Like I mentioned, they overbook plenty. But before boarding they announce some $ amount + the cost of your ticket + free rebooking, and usually there's a line of people signing up for that deal. Seriously, I agreed to be "booted" once (for the cash), and they still managed to get me on the plane because they had plenty of volunteers.
Some of my friends hate southwest because they can't manage to get to their gate in time to line up for boarding. If that's you - I get it. But don't hate the game, hate yourself for being a slack-ass.
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Source. Plus, define "boot". Like I mentioned, they overbook plenty. But before boarding they announce some $ amount + the cost of your ticket + free rebooking, and usually there's a line of people signing up for that deal. Seriously, I agreed to be "booted" once (for the cash), and they still managed to get me on the plane because they had plenty of volunteers.
Some of my friends hate southwest because they can't manage to get to their gate in time to line up for boarding. If that's you - I get it. But don't hate the game, hate yourself for being a slack-ass.
Or a cheap ass for not buying the early bird check in for $15.
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Or a cheap ass for not buying the early bird check in for $15.
Well, in their case they don't get to the gate on time, not even about check-in.
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Or a cheap ass for not buying the early bird check in for $15.
Hey, I can buy 3 vodka and tonics onboard for that $15.
Did I mention the booze prices are extremely reasonable? And every once in awhile they send me a book full of free drink coupons. What's not to love about SWA?
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What's not to love about SWA?
Getting to Midway from any suburb north of I-90.
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I dislike SWA. Annoying attendants and passengers.
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Getting to Midway from any suburb north of I-90.
Fly outta Milwaukee then
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Count me in the SWA fan club, take then whenever possible for family trips enough though I fly United more of the time for business
True story: had a flight on United from Cleveland to Milwaukee on a Thursday evening(last one out). Showed up at the airport and the plane that was going to take me to Milwaukee still hasn't left to go to DC and back....so I knew we were going to be delayed, United insisted we weren't. Long story short, we were supposed to leave at 7, got pushed back to 8, then 9 finally then a firm 10pm. Asked about crew rest:naw they'll be fine. Announcement at 930, cancelling the flight because the crew will need to rest when they get here so see you guys in the morning. All so this was easily foreseeable, so I jump on Twitter to rant about United.....they actually respond and we go back and forth and at some point I made a reference that this wouldn't have been an issue on SWA. United asks how they can make it better, I tell them miles, they say they can't do that....SWA chimes in AND GIVES ME MILES
That's customer service
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What's not to love about SWA?
No first class for one thing.
Fifteen galizzion stops to get to a smaller destination for another. It's like flying North Central back in the 1970s.
No leg room for a third (for us tall guys, SWA can be painful).
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Worst motherfookin' cattle car on da planet, hey?
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No first class for one thing.
Fifteen galizzion stops to get to a smaller destination for another. It's like flying North Central back in the 1970s.
No leg room for a third (for us tall guys, SWA can be painful).
And it's not cheap. The brag they have no bag fees or change fees ... they make it up with a higher price.
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This blog on the subject .. got me thinking differently about the United situation.
https://thepilotwifelife.wordpress.com/2017/04/11/i-know-youre-mad-at-united-but-thoughts-from-a-pilot-wife-about-flight-3411/
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I was unaware making room for the flight crew was a federal regulation.
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Inside this year’s rating
Below is the 2016 numerical ranking of the nation’s leading 12 airlines, according to the Airline Quality Rating, with the 2015 ranking in parentheses:
1. Alaska (5)
2. Delta (3)
3. Virgin America (1)
4. JetBlue (2)
5. Hawaiian (4)
6. Southwest (6)
7. SkyWest (7)
8. United (8)
9. American (10)
10. ExpressJet (9)
11. Spirit (13)
12. Frontier (11)
http://www.wichita.edu/thisis/stories/story.asp?si=3621
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This blog on the subject .. got me thinking differently about the United situation.
https://thepilotwifelife.wordpress.com/2017/04/11/i-know-youre-mad-at-united-but-thoughts-from-a-pilot-wife-about-flight-3411/
Really? It said nothing different. Listen, if you have to ask a passenger to get off (because of a 'must ride'), and they say no, then ask another passenger. Keep going until someone says yes. If too many people are saying no, throw money at them. This is the airline's problem.
Did this guy react poorly when the po-po showed up? Yes. But it shouldn't have gotten there.
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Source?
Source. Plus, define "boot". Like I mentioned, they overbook plenty. But before boarding they announce some $ amount + the cost of your ticket + free rebooking, and usually there's a line of people signing up for that deal. Seriously, I agreed to be "booted" once (for the cash), and they still managed to get me on the plane because they had plenty of volunteers.
Some of my friends hate southwest because they can't manage to get to their gate in time to line up for boarding. If that's you - I get it. But don't hate the game, hate yourself for being a slack-ass.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/nation-now/2017/04/11/united-isnt-even-airline-most-likely-boot-you/100342202/
Here are the major airlines in the report, listed by rates of involuntary denied boardings per 10,000 passengers last year:
Southwest (.99)
JetBlue (.92)
American (.64)
Frontier(.58)
Spirit (.58)
United (.43)
Alaska (.40)
Virgin (.12)
Delta (.10)
Hawaiian (.05)
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I don't mind flying Southwest, but I do mind going to Midway. I live slightly closer to Milwaukee, but prices usually end up flying me out of ORD.
I also don't find much a difference between Spirit/SWA/Frontier.
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This blog on the subject .. got me thinking differently about the United situation.
https://thepilotwifelife.wordpress.com/2017/04/11/i-know-youre-mad-at-united-but-thoughts-from-a-pilot-wife-about-flight-3411/
1) “You can’t just kick a paying customer off the plane!” Psssst! It’s in the fine print. They can, indeed, do just that. And it’s not an airline specific rule, it’s a commercial aviation rule. Every ticket you purchase comes with a plethora of fine print–you know, the stuff we just click ‘next’ on without actually reading what we are agreeing to. Yeah, that. Well, it’s in there, and you checked the ‘I agree’ box when you purchased your ticket. You can read about it and oh-so-much-more here. Kind of makes you want to read all those tiny words on your next phone update before you click ‘I agree’, huh? You should. United did not break any law, and he agreed to the policy and possibility of involuntary bump when he bought his ticket. And so do you.
She might not be correct on this. The question is if he was already boarded (which Oscar Munoz said he was in his letter Monday) then United was incorrect to follow its "involuntary denial of boarding procedures." (their is also a question of whether they followed them correctly as well). United should have followed its "refusal to transport" procedures. Admittedly this is a gray area because he was already seated (boarded) and how can one be "denied" something that has already happened. She should not be this definitive about United following the law.
Saw an argument about why Munoz did a 180. In his Monday letter, he said "he was boarded" then went on to say United wanted to "deny him boarding." Both cannot be true at the same time so Munoz screwed th pooch and opened United up to legal problems by defining that he was already boarded.
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No first class for one thing.
Fifteen galizzion stops to get to a smaller destination for another. It's like flying North Central back in the 1970s.
No leg room for a third (for us tall guys, SWA can be painful).
I'm 6'4" and I don't have any problem with leg room or at least any more than any other carrier...granted I never fly 1st class.
There definitely routes where they aren't as competitive but some routes, flying to Denver, Phoenix, or Vegas they are far better at that other carriers in my opinion.
Additionally when I'm flying SWA for personal reason it's with my wife and son and the family boarding process is ideal for us.
Bottom line, the carriers "excel" at delivering different market outcomes that will be unique to a user so we'll never agree on best airline
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No first class for one thing.
Fifteen galizzion stops to get to a smaller destination for another. It's like flying North Central back in the 1970s.
No leg room for a third (for us tall guys, SWA can be painful).
I'm amazed by business travelers who swear by Southwest. Sometimes when you're dealing with the hassles of business travel, and flights are getting moved around or you are running late, the most comforting feeling is knowing just get there and you're fine. Having to fight with a bunch of novice fliers for seats once boarding begins is the worst. And those seats are rough.
Also, if you're a business flying Southwest loyalist, you need to have an alternative airline for international travel, and often the perks attained by frequent travel are best utilized for such flights. Whether it be upgrades or standby flexibility, etc... Most people I know who are frequent business fliers on United/Delta/American have very regular first class upgrades on their domestic flights short of routes like Chicago-NY, NY-LA, etc.. My pair of friends who fly Southwest have a bunch of drink tickets, guess its all preference.
If you're an occasional flier domestically, I totally get the appeal and draw of Southwest. Outside of that, not so much. And echoing a few others, when you fly often with other carriers, the occasional Southwest trip can get borderline annoying. I fly SW to Vegas (as their rates seemingly always come in lowest) and to Dallas (as my sister lives near Love Field). I never fail to see disagreements as people get on and begin saving seats like its a college lecture as well as plentiful people attempting to cheat the queue system. Maybe my experiences are unique, but we're going on a half dozen of them
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I'm amazed by business travelers who swear by Southwest. Sometimes when you're dealing with the hassles of business travel, and flights are getting moved around or you are running late, the most comforting feeling is knowing just get there and you're fine. Having to fight with a bunch of novice fliers for seats once boarding begins is the worst. And those seats are rough.
Also, if you're a business flying Southwest loyalist, you need to have an alternative airline for international travel, and often the perks attained by frequent travel are best utilized for such flights. Whether it be upgrades or standby flexibility, etc... Most people I know who are frequent business fliers on United/Delta/American have very regular first class upgrades on their domestic flights short of routes like Chicago-NY, NY-LA, etc.. My pair of friends who fly Southwest have a bunch of drink tickets, guess its all preference.
If you're an occasional flier domestically, I totally get the appeal and draw of Southwest. Outside of that, not so much. And echoing a few others, when you fly often with other carriers, the occasional Southwest trip can get borderline annoying. I fly SW to Vegas (as their rates seemingly always come in lowest) and to Dallas (as my sister lives near Love Field). I never fail to see disagreements as people get on and begin saving seats like its a college lecture as well as plentiful people attempting to cheat the queue system. Maybe my experiences are unique, but we're going on a half dozen of them
How about this one: I have taken dozens and dozens of Southwest flights, and I can think of only one time my flight was delayed for anything other than weather issues. I have only been cancelled once; I was traveling back to Chicago and there was a blizzard there. So I had to spend an extra day in Las Vegas. Sucks to be me.
I worked for a company where a group of us had to fly to Charlotte for meetings. I took Southwest; everyone else took legacy airlines out of O'Hare. At least half the time, their flight back was delayed. To rub it in, I would text them all that I had landed at Midway, while they were still sitting in the Charlotte airport on a Friday night.
Also Southwest is starting to fly internationally. They are starting with Mexico and the Caribbean. Also, their frequent flyer points never expire. I am sitting on well over 100K of them right now.
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The more you watch the video, the higher the $ total gets in the inevitable settlement. 7 figure$.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9NuoozXYAA3Zff.jpg:large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9E6tgcXcAAAB4M.jpg:large)
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The more you watch the video, the higher the $ total gets in the inevitable settlement. 7 figure$.
Concussion, broken nose, lost teeth: UAL passenger's injuries
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20170413/NEWS10/170419935/concussion-broken-nose-lost-teeth-ual-passengers-injuries#utm_medium=email&utm_source=ccb-breakingnews&utm_campaign=ccb-breakingnews-20170413
A lawyer for a man dragged off a United Express flight says airlines have "bullied" passengers "for a long time."
Thomas Demetrio said at a news conference today that airlines have treated us as "less than maybe we deserve."
Dr. David Dao was dragged from the airliner after he refused to give up his seat on the full flight.
Dao suffered a concussion, a broken nose, injury to sinuses that will require reconstructive surgery, and lost two front teeth, Demetrio said.
He says he "probably" will file a lawsuit on Dao's behalf. "We're not ready to sue. We're doing our due diligence," he said.
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More like 8 or 9 figures and Munoz and other personnel involved in this are toast.
From the article ...
Dao's lawyers already have taken steps toward filing a lawsuit. On Wednesday they filed an emergency motion (read it below) in Cook County Circuit Court asking a judge to ensure the airline and city preserve surveillance video showing passengers boarding Flight 3411 to Louisville, Ky.
They're also seeking cockpit voice recordings, incident reports and other materials.
Munoz better pray that no one is heard making a racial remark about Dao, laughing it him,or saying anything else "embarrassing." Because Dao's lawyer will leak this to the press and the outrage (and cost of a settlement) will rise even more.
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Concussion, broken nose, lost teeth: UAL passenger's injuries
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20170413/NEWS10/170419935/concussion-broken-nose-lost-teeth-ual-passengers-injuries#utm_medium=email&utm_source=ccb-breakingnews&utm_campaign=ccb-breakingnews-20170413
A lawyer for a man dragged off a United Express flight says airlines have "bullied" passengers "for a long time."
Thomas Demetrio said at a news conference today that airlines have treated us as "less than maybe we deserve."
Dr. David Dao was dragged from the airliner after he refused to give up his seat on the full flight.
Dao suffered a concussion, a broken nose, injury to sinuses that will require reconstructive surgery, and lost two front teeth, Demetrio said.
He says he "probably" will file a lawsuit on Dao's behalf. "We're not ready to sue. We're doing our due diligence," he said.
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More like 8 or 9 figures and Munoz and other personnel involved in this are toast.
From the article ...
Dao's lawyers already have taken steps toward filing a lawsuit. On Wednesday they filed an emergency motion (read it below) in Cook County Circuit Court asking a judge to ensure the airline and city preserve surveillance video showing passengers boarding Flight 3411 to Louisville, Ky.
They're also seeking cockpit voice recordings, incident reports and other materials.
Munoz better pray that no one is heard making a racial remark about Dao, laughing it him,or saying anything else "embarrassing." Because Dao's lawyer will leak this to the press and the outrage (and cost of a settlement) will rise even more.
Anyone who thinks this guy is getting 8 - much less 9 - figures out of this is a crazy person. He might get seven, if only because United badly wants to make this go away and come off looking like less than a corporate thug.
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I will set the over/under at $6 million and take the over.
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All united had to do was up the ticket price for voluntary booting to 1200... Multiple people stated that they told United crew members they would take that deal. Instead united went the cheap way and now has lost way more.
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There's no way this makes it to court.
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We're tossin' millions 'round here like der hard boiled eggs at an Easter egg hunt. Dis cat's damages don't approach deez numbers, bad press or knot.
WN's planes are filthy and cramped. Just a chitty experience all da wey 'round. Den again if yar good wit walkin' 8 blocks ta park at da BC, find sittin' in da 400 section, and gettin' 3 drinks for $15 an tink dats livin' large, den, I guess ya ether don't no any betta orr ya wanna bee da richest person in da cemetery, ai na?
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We're tossin' millions 'round here like der hard boiled eggs at an Easter egg hunt. Dis cat's damages don't approach deez numbers, bad press or knot.
WN's planes are filthy and cramped. Just a chitty experience all da wey 'round. Den again if yar good wit walkin' 8 blocks ta park at da BC, find sittin' in da 400 section, and gettin' 3 drinks for $15 livin' large, den, I guess ya ether don't no any betta orr ya wanna bee da richest person in da cemetery, ai na?
How long does it take you to translate from regular english to that?
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8 figures?! Think of how many drugs & gay prostitutes he'll be able to afford!!
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8 figures?! Think of how many drugs & gay prostitutes he'll be able to afford!!
What does that have to do with being assaulted by trained, young thugs?
Do you believe police should have the right to assault senior citizens at will on the off-chance that the victim had an unrelated arrest at some time in their life.
It is no surprise that you are the one who defends criminal assault by police.
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How about this one: I have taken dozens and dozens of Southwest flights, and I can think of only one time my flight was delayed for anything other than weather issues. I have only been cancelled once; I was traveling back to Chicago and there was a blizzard there. So I had to spend an extra day in Las Vegas. Sucks to be me.
I worked for a company where a group of us had to fly to Charlotte for meetings. I took Southwest; everyone else took legacy airlines out of O'Hare. At least half the time, their flight back was delayed. To rub it in, I would text them all that I had landed at Midway, while they were still sitting in the Charlotte airport on a Friday night.
Also Southwest is starting to fly internationally. They are starting with Mexico and the Caribbean. Also, their frequent flyer points never expire. I am sitting on well over 100K of them right now.
I wasn't talking about on time departures, especially since you look at the statistics and its usually no more than a percent or two difference between all of the majors. I was talking more about the generalities of the experience.
And I have no doubt you've had a good experience with SW. You've been vocal about it here before, I was rather saying its not the magic bullet that some people would like to make it out to be. They have their pitfalls like every other major player in air travel.
And until Southwest starts flying to London, Asia or Buenos Aires, or partners with airlines who do, their international destinations are a moot point. Its definitely not right around the corner. Those long haul flights are where mileage, upgrades, and status preferred treatment really come into play.
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8 figures?! Think of how many drugs & gay prostitutes he'll be able to afford!!
Why do you continue to bring up this guy's non violent arrest? It doesn't pertain to the situation at all.
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Why do you continue to bring up this guy's non violent arrest? It doesn't pertain to the situation at all.
He would support the police if they came to his home and assaulted his kids.
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I wasn't talking about on time departures, especially since you look at the statistics and its usually no more than a percent or two difference between all of the majors. I was talking more about the generalities of the experience.
And I have no doubt you've had a good experience with SW. You've been vocal about it here before, I was rather saying its not the magic bullet that some people would like to make it out to be. They have their pitfalls like every other major player in air travel.
And until Southwest starts flying to London, Asia or Buenos Aires, or partners with airlines who do, their international destinations are a moot point. Its definitely not right around the corner. Those long haul flights are where mileage, upgrades, and status preferred treatment really come into play.
On time departure stats are just about the most manipulated and abused stat there is. It's based on push back from the gate, not am I in the air on time. If I push back and sit on the tarmac for 15 minutes I'm just as on time as if I push back and in the air a minute later. Those are two very different user experiences
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(http://cdn2.business2community.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/southwest-logo.jpg)
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WN's planes are filthy and cramped. Just a chitty experience all da wey 'round.
I'll just leave this here. And note that WN's score is better than any "traditional" carrier, plus "improving in all seven factors year over year, most notably in aircraft (+15 points) and flight crew (+12)."
http://www.jdpower.com/press-releases/2016-north-america-airline-satisfaction-study
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8 figures?! Think of how many drugs & gay prostitutes he'll be able to afford!!
I don't throw the word "homophobe" around much, but you seemed to be obsessed with the fact that they were gay encounters. Why would that make a difference?
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I don't throw the word "homophobe" around much, but you seemed to be obsessed with the fact that they were gay encounters. Why would that make a difference?
Are you upset when people say he's Vietnamese, or a man, or a "doctor"?
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Are you upset when people say he's Vietnamese, or a man, or a "doctor"?
Do any of those descriptors have any bearing on either the airline incident or his criminal incident? Does the gay descriptor have any bearing on any of those?
FYI, if your answer is yes to any of those questionsA) you're wrong B) you should examine why you are wrong
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We're tossin' millions 'round here like der hard boiled eggs at an Easter egg hunt. Dis cat's damages don't approach deez numbers, bad press or knot.
WN's planes are filthy and cramped. Just a chitty experience all da wey 'round. Den again if yar good wit walkin' 8 blocks ta park at da BC, find sittin' in da 400 section, and gettin' 3 drinks for $15 an tink dats livin' large, den, I guess ya ether don't no any betta orr ya wanna bee da richest person in da cemetery, ai na?
I think this translates to you taking the 'under'.
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Anyone who thinks this guy is getting 8 - much less 9 - figures out of this is a crazy person. He might get seven, if only because United badly wants to make this go away and come off looking like less than a corporate thug.
I hear ya but his his Lawyer Thomas Demetrio is a "super lawyer" (aka top drawer ambulance chaser) who did not take this case to settle for a "rounding error" of less than 7 figures. Dao could get that without a lawyer talking to the airline himself.
Demetrio listed his Lake Forest mansion for $5.9 million
http://www.chicagotribune.com/classified/realestate/elitestreet/ct-elite-street-thomas-demetrio-0204-biz-2-20160128-story.html
A guy like Demetrio does not take this case because he getting less than $1,000,000.
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Thomas Demetrio
The National Law Journal named him one of the top ten lawyers in the nation and one of the top ten trial lawyer in Illinois and since its inception in 2005, Lawdragon has named him one of the top 500 Leading Lawyers in America. He served as the president of the Chicago Bar Association and president of the Illinois Trial Lawyers Association. He is a member of the Inner Circle of Advocates, and the American College of Trial Lawyers.
Demetrio was featured in USA Today, in the American Bar Association Journal and was the cover story in the Leading Lawyers Network Magazine the Illinois Super Lawyer Magazine. and again in the American Bar Association's April 2005 Issue "Catch A Rising Star" Illinois Institute of Technology (IIT) Chicago-Kent College of Law has honored him with its Distinguished Service Award and its Professional Achievement Award. Demetrio is on the Board of Directors for Big Shoulders, the Center for Disability & Elder Law, and the Constitutional Rights Foundation. Demetrio is also an IIT Trustee.
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Are you upset when people say he's Vietnamese, or a man, or a "doctor"?
I read quite a number of articles about this incident, and while nearly all of them mentioned that he was Vietnamese, a man and a doctor, and some of theme even mentioned the sex for scripts incidents, I only heard the "gay" part from you. And you mentioned it nearly every time you posted in this thread.
But I will be fair. Going forward, I will back off if you mention the "type" of sex every time you post about sex, such as, "I hooked up with some skank off of Tinder for some straight sex".
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I think this translates to you taking the 'under'.
Really, I'm about to try to put his stuff into google translate. It's getting harder and harder to read. :o
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A guy like Demetrio does not take this case because he getting less than $1,000,000.
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Demetrio takes a case like this because he can have his firm's logo on the backdrop of his presser:
(https://heavyeditorial.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/demetriopicpress-e1492098337152.jpg?quality=65&strip=all&strip=all)
Hard to purchase that kind of coverage. And I'll take the under on the settlement amount being thrown around here.
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How about this one: I have taken dozens and dozens of Southwest flights, and I can think of only one time my flight was delayed for anything other than weather issues. I have only been cancelled once; I was traveling back to Chicago and there was a blizzard there. So I had to spend an extra day in Las Vegas. Sucks to be me.
I worked for a company where a group of us had to fly to Charlotte for meetings. I took Southwest; everyone else took legacy airlines out of O'Hare. At least half the time, their flight back was delayed. To rub it in, I would text them all that I had landed at Midway, while they were still sitting in the Charlotte airport on a Friday night.
Also Southwest is starting to fly internationally. They are starting with Mexico and the Caribbean. Also, their frequent flyer points never expire. I am sitting on well over 100K of them right now.
i can fully attest to this with one exception-out of many many flights, i've had ONE flight delayed and they were texting me all along the way, keeping me informed. i've never had to battle anyone for a seat. as you board in accordance with your number, you walk up the aisle, throw your carry-on above, sit your back-side down and turn on your lap top to watch tv, disembark, walk off and go to your car. i rarely/almost never have to check a bag
cancelling or changing a flight has always been painless
i love 'em!!
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He would support the police if they came to his home and assaulted his kids.
i'll betcha a six-pak he wouldn't
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How long does it take you to translate from regular english to that?
i love it! don't let 'em get to ya warrior!
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How about this one: I have taken dozens and dozens of Southwest flights, and I can think of only one time my flight was delayed for anything other than weather issues. I have only been cancelled once; I was traveling back to Chicago and there was a blizzard there. So I had to spend an extra day in Las Vegas. Sucks to be me.
I worked for a company where a group of us had to fly to Charlotte for meetings. I took Southwest; everyone else took legacy airlines out of O'Hare. At least half the time, their flight back was delayed. To rub it in, I would text them all that I had landed at Midway, while they were still sitting in the Charlotte airport on a Friday night.
Also Southwest is starting to fly internationally. They are starting with Mexico and the Caribbean. Also, their frequent flyer points never expire. I am sitting on well over 100K of them right now.
Chick, I've flown United since I came to Chicago in the 1980s -- except for a four year period where United was simply awful and the company I worked for had a contract with American. I'm 6'4" and sitting in most coach seats is a violation of my human rights under the Geneva Convention. As I said elsewhere, any seat with a pitch less than 30" should be declared unfit for human habitation, Danny DiVito excluded.
United at times is a pain, I won't deny it. So is Southwest -- you've been fortunate. I'd argue that 90%+ of the times I fly United, they're on time or even early. And since Oscar took over, the morale of the employees is much better than ever. I agree with Keefe's position on US Airlines generally, but United is as good as anyone, which isn't saying much.
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I read quite a number of articles about this incident, and while nearly all of them mentioned that he was Vietnamese, a man and a doctor, and some of theme even mentioned the sex for scripts incidents, I only heard the "gay" part from you. And you mentioned it nearly every time you posted in this thread.
But I will be fair. Going forward, I will back off if you mention the "type" of sex every time you post about sex, such as, "I hooked up with some skank off of Tinder for some straight sex".
The question was if you were upset by people stating that he was a doctor, for instance? You seem to be mad when people bring up that he was involved in illicit drugs-for-gay-sex arrangements... (he's a convicted felon)...
I'd like to understand what led up to him being removed from the plane. That is, his reaction and interaction with United before they went to the next phase... and then again, when the fake cops showed up, how did he react and interact?
It takes a certain level of naughtiness to be a married man with 5 kids, and a doctor, who commits felony drug crimes and bangs male patients in exchange for drugs... did the felon play any part in escalating the situation (I mean with the fake cops on the plane, obviously he did with the patient, ainner?)?
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And since Oscar took over, the morale of the employees is much better than ever. I agree with Keefe's position on US Airlines generally, but United is as good as anyone, which isn't saying much.
You should click the JD power link. United is not as good as anyone. In fact, they're exactly worse than everyone except for Frontier! Now, I will fully admit that data is nearly a year old, and perhaps the second year of Oscar's tenure they've improved dramatically. I don't know, I don't fly them (usually Southwest, Delta, and then non-US carriers, in that order).
The other part of the debate here, really just comes down to "loyalty" programs. Once you're "above the masses" on a particular airline, you are going to have a better airport experience with that airline, and it will seem worse with the others. So, the airlines generally evoke great loyalty from their frequent customers. That makes sense.
Anyhow, back to United and the Doc. I hope this news creates some changes by the airlines in how they deal with things. Even if it's just a few tweaks, and realizing they'll probably get worse again someday.
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United at times is a pain
More literally now a days ;D
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The more you watch the video, the higher the $ total gets in the inevitable settlement. 7 figure$.
what i don't get is, and this is with most of these "big number' lawsuits is, how do they come up with these dollar amounts? it's not like there's a ready reference table or anything, but sometimes these numbers are "powerball-esque' i mean, come on man! compensate the dude a couple million and let's move on...it's incidents like these that have people putting chit in their food, slipping on dry sidewalks, etc that keep the yellow pages thick with attorneys and asking for more
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new united training video just released by the big "O"
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what i don't get is, and this is with most of these "big number' lawsuits is, how do they come up with these dollar amounts? it's not like there's a ready reference table or anything, but sometimes these numbers are "powerball-esque' i mean, come on man! compensate the dude a couple million and let's move on...it's incidents like these that have people putting chit in their food, slipping on dry sidewalks, etc that keep the yellow pages thick with attorneys and asking for more
So you're taking the under, too. I get it. You are a doctor. (ish ;D) Malpractice and big jury awards create a Pavlovian response in you. But the man is going to get paid. And I honestly think it will be low 8 figures.
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what i don't get is, and this is with most of these "big number' lawsuits is, how do they come up with these dollar amounts? it's not like there's a ready reference table or anything, but sometimes these numbers are "powerball-esque' i mean, come on man! compensate the dude a couple million and let's move on...it's incidents like these that have people putting chit in their food, slipping on dry sidewalks, etc that keep the yellow pages thick with attorneys and asking for more
You still get the yellow pages?
The value of his claim is his medical bills, wage loss, pain & suffering (past and maybe future) and, potentially, punitive or exemplary damages. The categories that are hard to quantify are pain & suffering and punitive damages. To a large measure, the pain & suffering depends on what his health care providers say about his injuries, and how well he would tell his own tale.
Then throw in his "likeability" to a potential jury, and in this case, the dislike many have toward the airline industry. It will be interesting to watch it unfold.
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Dude lost a couple of choppers. Dats worth a bundle rite der, ai na?
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You still get the yellow pages?
The value of his claim is his medical bills, wage loss, pain & suffering (past and maybe future) and, potentially, punitive or exemplary damages. The categories that are hard to quantify are pain & suffering and punitive damages. To a large measure, the pain & suffering depends on what his health care providers say about his injuries, and how well he would tell his own tale.
Then throw in his "likeability" to a potential jury, and in this case, the dislike many have toward the airline industry. It will be interesting to watch it unfold.
Defense attorneys like a dirty, mean spirited, gay molesting drug dealing guy like this... I think the named defendants will be interesting..
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what i don't get is, and this is with most of these "big number' lawsuits is, how do they come up with these dollar amounts? it's not like there's a ready reference table or anything, but sometimes these numbers are "powerball-esque' i mean, come on man! compensate the dude a couple million and let's move on...it's incidents like these that have people putting chit in their food, slipping on dry sidewalks, etc that keep the yellow pages thick with attorneys and asking for more
Plaintiff's lawyer hires an expert to estimate losses and then multiplies it x10. Defendant's lawyer hires an expert to estimate losses and then divides it by 10. Then they both try to make the case to the jury. If the jury feels bad for the plaintiff, they usually end up closer to their number....
And I haven't seen a yellow pages in years.
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Dude lost a couple of choppers. Dats worth a bundle rite der, ai na?
Doc, please give us your estimate and factor in Chicagoland pricing, if you think there's a significant geographic difference from your practice.
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Give us your estimate and factor in Chicagoland pricing.
Or pricing based on the "doctor's" past practices... can United flip him a few pills and a gay hand job, then all is good?
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Demetrio takes a case like this because he can have his firm's logo on the backdrop of his presser:
(https://heavyeditorial.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/demetriopicpress-e1492098337152.jpg?quality=65&strip=all&strip=all)
Hard to purchase that kind of coverage. And I'll take the under on the settlement amount being thrown around here.
Read his bio, he doesn't need the pub, he needs fees.
He sees huge fees in this business.
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Defense attorneys like a dirty, mean spirited, gay molesting drug dealing guy like this... I think the named defendants will be interesting..
You really are a sick, perverted dude. Nothin' but a "holier than thou" POS.
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Read his bio, he doesn't need the pub, he needs fees.
He sees huge fees in this business.
I know his bio. I know a few of his partners. He will generate a decent fee on this case, but the plaintiff isn't a paraplegic or a horrible burn victim because of the incident, unlike many of the cases that built Corboy & Demetrio. This case brought Demetrio national coverage yesterday and today. I'll wager most here never heard of him until now.
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You really are a sick, perverted dude. Nothin' but a "holier than thou" POS.
Has zero to do with me. You feel the same way about a guy that lives life without breaking the law exactly the same as a guy who molests patients and eventually convinces them to trade drugs for gay sex? I'll make a call on it- that's bad. It's awful.
Being a married man w multiple kids who fondles patients, commits felonies to bang men, etc. is BAD. Yes, sorry for the judgment. But it's awful.
Interesting that some of you approve.
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Plaintiff's lawyer hires an expert to estimate losses and then multiplies it x10. Defendant's lawyer hires an expert to estimate losses and then divides it by 10. Then they both try to make the case to the jury. If the jury feels bad for the plaintiff, they usually end up closer to their number....
And I haven't seen a yellow pages in years.
Clearly you know nothing about being a plaintiff's attorney
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Has zero to do with me. You feel the same way about a guy that lives life without breaking the law exactly the same as a guy who molests patients and eventually convinces them to trade drugs for gay sex? I'll make a call on it- that's bad. It's awful.
Being a married man w multiple kids who fondles patients, commits felonies to bang men, etc. is BAD. Yes, sorry for the judgment. But it's awful.
Interesting that some of you approve.
Would it be less bad if he were a married man w multiple kids who fondles patients, commits felonies to bang women, etc.?
Methinks you're trying way too hard to convince everyone you have a distaste for homosexuality.
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Would it be less bad if he were a married man w multiple kids who fondles patients, commits felonies to bang women, etc.?
Methinks you're trying way too hard to convince everyone you have a distaste for homosexuality.
Methinks you're dreaming up stuff. The media wants to portray the felon as a family man, married with successful kids.
So if we're going there, let's be accurate.
He's an incredibly aggressive, man hungry, drug dealing felon.
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Methinks you're dreaming up stuff. The media wants to portray the felon as a family man, married with successful kids.
So if we're going there, let's be accurate.
He's an incredibly aggressive, man hungry, drug dealing felon.
And he has no respect for police.
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Clearly you know nothing about being a plaintiff's attorney
Ok, so some multiply the estimate by 20....
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"You still get the yellow pages?"
just keep a few around so the little ones can sit at the table with the big people and hear our sex, politics and religious arguments. you know, the stuf we ain't supposed to talk about at family dinners
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So you're taking the under, too. I get it. You are a doctor. (ish ;D) Malpractice and big jury awards create a Pavlovian response in you. But the man is going to get paid. And I honestly think it will be low 8 figures.
what i'd take or what do i think he'll get? he should get the under, but i can imagine the jury is going to be going thru a few boxes of kleenex here and while they're at it, might as well milk the free room in downtown city of big shoulders and all the gibson's ya care to eat, ein'ner? and then hand mr.or is it dr d a winner winner chicken dinner
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Methinks you're dreaming up stuff. The media wants to portray the felon as a family man, married with successful kids.
So if we're going there, let's be accurate.
He's an incredibly aggressive, man hungry, drug dealing felon.
I don't understand your obsession with him being a felon. He served his sentence got his medical license back and has been clean since.
Why do you care about this so much?
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United is just one screw up after another. According to this story, they had another one.
The reason this happens is United natural state is to do what is in their best interest without regard for the customer. Customer are nothing but cattle to be herded up and slaughtered .... and beaten if they get in the way of profits.
http://money.cnn.com/2017/04/13/news/companies/united-airlines-passenger-vouchers/index.html?sr=twcnni041417united-airlines-passenger-vouchers0450AMVODtopLink&linkId=36504923
A United spokesperson says that "all customers" on the flight will get compensation for "the cost of their tickets."
A United (UAL) email provided to CNN by a passenger on the flight says customers are eligible for vouchers toward future flights if they "release" the airline from lawsuits. The email offered a voucher worth $500.
A United spokesperson later told CNN that it did not mean to send passengers emails with the "release" language in them and said no Flight 3411 passenger would have to agree to such terms.
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Doc, please give us your estimate and factor in Chicagoland pricing, if you think there's a significant geographic difference from your practice.
Assumin' he's a suitable candidate utterwise, I'd opt to place a couple of dental implants. Between da oral surgeon's fee and mine, probably lookin' at $10-12k minimum. If ya can hook me up wit dis gig, I'd be much obliged, hey?
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The hits just keep on coming for United...this time by a scorpion.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/united-passenger-stung-by-scorpion-while-eating-dinner-on-flight/
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The hits just keep on coming for United...this time by a scorpion.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/united-passenger-stung-by-scorpion-while-eating-dinner-on-flight/
Wonder if they made room for the scorpion by "re-accommodating" a paying passenger.
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United is just one screw up after another. According to this story, they had another one.
The reason this happens is United natural state is to do what is in their best interest without regard for the customer. Customer are nothing but cattle to be herded up and slaughtered .... and beaten if they get in the way of profits.
http://money.cnn.com/2017/04/13/news/companies/united-airlines-passenger-vouchers/index.html?sr=twcnni041417united-airlines-passenger-vouchers0450AMVODtopLink&linkId=36504923
A United spokesperson says that "all customers" on the flight will get compensation for "the cost of their tickets."
A United (UAL) email provided to CNN by a passenger on the flight says customers are eligible for vouchers toward future flights if they "release" the airline from lawsuits. The email offered a voucher worth $500.
A United spokesperson later told CNN that it did not mean to send passengers emails with the "release" language in them and said no Flight 3411 passenger would have to agree to such terms.
You think they couldn't possibly dig themselves a deeper hole. But then they continue to do so.... IF they would just shut up, give out a CASH refund this would all just go away in a few days...
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Assumin' he's a suitable candidate utterwise, I'd opt to place a couple of dental implants. Between da oral surgeon's fee and mine, probably lookin' at $10-12k minimum. If ya can hook me up wit dis gig, I'd be much obliged, hey?
what?? no seasoned citizen discount? i kinda think cash won't be much of a problem for dr. d, but just hold off on prescribing him any pain meds post surgery, eeeen'a?
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And he has no respect for police.
Those weren't police officers.
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Dish, I'm no apologist for the airlines. God knows, I've been sh*t on enough by all of the major carriers to write a book. I travel a lot and I see the best and worst of them.
You have the airline system you want. Once upon a time, airlines provided customer service. Coach seats were more comfortable and had more leg room. Food was at least edible and it came with the ticket in both first class and coach. Flight attendants were, well, attentive and there was open seats more often than not so that incidents like Sunday's didn't happen.
But you want cheap airfare. You want the $99 round-trip from ORD to LGA. Your corporate travel department would strap you to a wing if they thought they could save $5.00. You get your airfare but with it comes the end of the personal service. You pay for baggage, bad food, preferable seats and God knows what else because it is a cat and mouse game to the bottom between the airline that has to serve shareholders and customers who think Spirit Airlines is the next great thing.
Amid all this comes margin squeeze. It means there are far fewer people who are equipped to make decisions. It means lines are long, people are short and training sucks. But the fact remains that the three legacy carriers move between 400,000 and 500,000 persons a day globally. And they have to do so on razor thin margins that are sensitive to everything from a small change in oil prices to slight upticks in interest rates. Oh, and don't forget some of the toughest and most important safety regulations in the world affect the airline industry. For despite it all, this is a pretty heavily regulated industry and with good reason. We've haven't had a serious airline accident in the United States in several years. The last one I recall was when a Korean Airlines jet missed the runway at SFO because of an inexperienced pilot.
I'm sure some dunderhead at Uber, Lyft or even Amtrak thinks they can do a better job. And I'm sure things will evolve in time. But the operation of a modern airline is a just a bit more sophisticated than putting a couple of cars driven by housewives on the streets of Monterrey, CA.
Could not have said it better.
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https://www.brandwatch.com/blog/react-united-airlines-overbooked/
On 26th March, when “LeggingsGate” saw United Airlines hitting the headlines, we tracked around 135k mentions of the brand in one day across Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. On the 10th of April, as the footage circulated around the internet, the brand was mentioned over 1.5 million times. Comparing the two peaks (#leggingsgate on 26th March and April 10th’s spike), there were around 1000% more mentions.
(https://14415-presscdn-0-52-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/united-airlines-mentions-by-day.png)
United had enjoyed a couple of days with an overwhelmingly positive sentiment – April 8th and 9th saw more than 91% of all sentiment-categorized mentions register as positive. The positivity stemmed from a tweet where United offered a free flight to the individual currently seeking 18 million retweets to get Wendy’s chicken nuggets free for a year.
However, the 10th April saw 69% of mentions categorized as negative, driven by the story surrounding the passenger being removed from the plane.
(https://14415-presscdn-0-52-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/united-airlines-sentiment.png)
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http://www.natlawreview.com/article/united-airlines-dr-dao-and-contract-carriage
Pundits have by and large argued that United was within its legal right to forcibly remove Dr. Dao from flight 3411 under the terms and conditions of United Airlines contract of carriage. A closer look at the contract for carriage itself, leads me to conclude that this is not the case. Two rules in the contract for carriage are particularly relevant to this discussion - Rule 21 and Rule 25. United Airlines Contract of Carriage Rule 21 deals with “Refusal of Transport”[ii] and Rule 25 addresses “Denied Boarding Compensation”. [iii]
...
The problem that United faces is that, it appears, they breached their own Carriage Contract. Dr. Dao was not denied boarding. United should have, as most carriers do, taken care of the oversold situation before boarding passengers. Once boarded, UA’s own contract controls with respect to why a passenger can be removed from a plane and being oversold is not a stated reason.
It has been argued that ‘boarding’ includes being seated on the plane while the plane is still at the gate. As boarding is not defined in the contract, and when read in conjunction with Rule 21 which uses the language ‘remove from the aircraft’, there is at best ambiguity and as anyone who has studied contracts knows – ambiguity is construed against the drafter.
It would appear after analyzing the Contract of Carriage that United was not within their right to have Dr. Dao forcibly removed.
This ultimately leads to an analysis of the limitation of liability clause. This too should fail. The limitation of liability should be restricted to instances where there was a denial of boarding. Nothing in United’s limitation of liability should apply to Dr. Dao’s inevitable myriad of claims associated with his forcible removal from the plane.
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Could not have said it better.
Surely one of your 22 aliases could have said it better.
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http://www.dorfonlaw.org/2017/04/united-airlines-own-contract-denied-it.html
However, Dao was not denied boarding. Dao was granted boarding, and then subsequently involuntarily deplaned, which is not the same thing.
To understand the difference, it is important to review the facts of the case. This summary is drawn from press reports in major newspapers. It appears that Dao had a valid ticket. He presented his ticket to the gate agent, who accepted the ticket, scanned it, and granted him access to the causeway and the airplane. Because he was granted boarding, Dao walked onto the aircraft and took his seat. Only later, after he and the other passengers were in their seats, did a representative come onto the plane and explain that four seats would need to be surrendered to make room for four United Airlines employees who needed to get to Louisville. After no passengers accepted financial incentives to voluntarily relinquish seats, four seated passengers—including Dao—were told to leave. Dao refused.
Like all airlines, United has a very specific (and lengthy!) contract for carriage outlining the contractual relationship between the airline and the passenger. It includes a familiar set of provisions for when a passenger may be denied boarding (Rule 25 “Denied Boarding Compensation”). When a flight is oversold, UA can deny boarding to some passengers, who then receive compensation under specific guidelines. However, Dao was not denied boarding. He was granted boarding and then involuntarily removed from the airplane. What does the contract say about that?
It turns out that the contract has a specific rule regarding “Refusal of Transport” (Rule 21), which lays out the conditions under which a passenger can be removed and refused transport on the aircraft. This includes situations where passengers act in a “disorderly, offensive, abusive, or violent” manner, refuse to comply with the smoking policy, are barefoot or “not properly clothed,” as well as many other situations. There is absolutely no provision for deplaning a seated passenger because the flight is oversold.
An added complication here is that the flight wasn’t even oversold. The contract defines an oversold flight as “a flight where there are more Passengers holding valid confirmed Tickets that check-in for the flight within the prescribed check-in time than there are available seats.” In this case, the airline attempted to remove seated passengers to make room for airline staff requiring transport to another airport, not because it had sold more tickets than there were seats available. In any event, this point is largely moot, because neither employee transportation nor oversold situations is listed as among the reasons that a passenger may be refused transport.
One might argue that Dao had not completed “boarding” until the cabin door was closed. This argument would be wrong. The term “boarding” is not defined in the definition section of the contract, and absent an explicit definition in the contract, terms are to be afforded their plain meaning. “Boarding” means that the passenger presents a boarding pass to the gate agent who accepts or scans the pass and permits entry through the gate to the airplane, allowing the passenger to enter the aircraft and take a seat.
It is possible in this regard to distinguish between the collective completion of the plane’s boarding process, which is not complete until all passengers have boarded and the cabin door is closed. But that is different from each passenger’s boarding, which is complete for each individual once he or she has been accepted for transportation by the gate agent and proceeded to the aircraft and taken his or her assigned seat.
Bottom line is that if the airline wants to bump you from the aircraft, it must deny you boarding. After the crew grant you boarding, the number of conditions under which they may deplane you substantially decreases. In this case, United Airlines made the mistake of boarding all passengers and then trying to find space for additional crew. The airline should bear the burden of this mistake, not the passengers who successfully boarded the plane. If the airline doesn’t like this, it should have written a different contract.
Might the airline argue that it had the right to refuse transport because Dao was “disorderly, offensive, abusive, or violent” (Rule 21H1) or causing a “disturbance” (Rule 21H4)? Although this depends on the facts, news reports suggest that Dao was not upset, and was minding his own business, until he was told that he was being involuntarily removed and he was dragged kicking and screaming from the aircraft. His being upset was caused by United Airline’s breach of its contractual duties towards him as a passenger, rather than the reverse.
The last aspect of this case – the most disturbing one – is the level of force used by the police officers. Based on the videos, most observers have concluded that the force was excessive and unnecessary given the circumstances. A deeper issue is whether the police had the authority to remove Dao in the first instance once United Airlines declared him persona non grata and asked the police to treat him as a trespasser. Presumably the police had the authority to remove him (but only with an appropriate level of force), but even so, there is a plausible argument that Dao’s injuries and damages suffered during that process were caused by the airline’s breach of contract, which specifically defines the circumstances when it can refuse transport, none of which applied in this case.
In some situations, a contractual dispute and a trespassing dispute should be kept separate. Say you hire a painter to paint the inside of your house. You refuse to pay and so the painter says, “I’m not leaving until you pay me.” When the painter refuses to leave, you call the police and ask them to remove him because he is trespassing. The proper resolution is that the painter must leave but can sue you for breach of contract.
That may be so, but in that case, the painter’s refusal to leave is incidental to the object and purpose of the contract, which is to paint the house, not stay in your house. In contrast, the object and purpose of the contract of carriage is, among other things, to require the airline to transport the passenger from location A to location B aboard aircraft C. Being on the aircraft is the whole point of the contract, and it specifically lists the situations when the airline may deny transport to a ticketed customer. Since the airline did not comply with those requirements, it should be liable for the damages associated with their breach.
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http://www.dorfonlaw.org/2017/04/united-airlines-own-contract-denied-it.html
However, Dao was not denied boarding. Dao was granted boarding, and then subsequently involuntarily deplaned, which is not the same thing.
To understand the difference, it is important to review the facts of the case. This summary is drawn from press reports in major newspapers. It appears that Dao had a valid ticket. He presented his ticket to the gate agent, who accepted the ticket, scanned it, and granted him access to the causeway and the airplane. Because he was granted boarding, Dao walked onto the aircraft and took his seat. Only later, after he and the other passengers were in their seats, did a representative come onto the plane and explain that four seats would need to be surrendered to make room for four United Airlines employees who needed to get to Louisville. After no passengers accepted financial incentives to voluntarily relinquish seats, four seated passengers—including Dao—were told to leave. Dao refused.
Like all airlines, United has a very specific (and lengthy!) contract for carriage outlining the contractual relationship between the airline and the passenger. It includes a familiar set of provisions for when a passenger may be denied boarding (Rule 25 “Denied Boarding Compensation”). When a flight is oversold, UA can deny boarding to some passengers, who then receive compensation under specific guidelines. However, Dao was not denied boarding. He was granted boarding and then involuntarily removed from the airplane. What does the contract say about that?
It turns out that the contract has a specific rule regarding “Refusal of Transport” (Rule 21), which lays out the conditions under which a passenger can be removed and refused transport on the aircraft. This includes situations where passengers act in a “disorderly, offensive, abusive, or violent” manner, refuse to comply with the smoking policy, are barefoot or “not properly clothed,” as well as many other situations. There is absolutely no provision for deplaning a seated passenger because the flight is oversold.
An added complication here is that the flight wasn’t even oversold. The contract defines an oversold flight as “a flight where there are more Passengers holding valid confirmed Tickets that check-in for the flight within the prescribed check-in time than there are available seats.” In this case, the airline attempted to remove seated passengers to make room for airline staff requiring transport to another airport, not because it had sold more tickets than there were seats available. In any event, this point is largely moot, because neither employee transportation nor oversold situations is listed as among the reasons that a passenger may be refused transport.
One might argue that Dao had not completed “boarding” until the cabin door was closed. This argument would be wrong. The term “boarding” is not defined in the definition section of the contract, and absent an explicit definition in the contract, terms are to be afforded their plain meaning. “Boarding” means that the passenger presents a boarding pass to the gate agent who accepts or scans the pass and permits entry through the gate to the airplane, allowing the passenger to enter the aircraft and take a seat.
It is possible in this regard to distinguish between the collective completion of the plane’s boarding process, which is not complete until all passengers have boarded and the cabin door is closed. But that is different from each passenger’s boarding, which is complete for each individual once he or she has been accepted for transportation by the gate agent and proceeded to the aircraft and taken his or her assigned seat.
Bottom line is that if the airline wants to bump you from the aircraft, it must deny you boarding. After the crew grant you boarding, the number of conditions under which they may deplane you substantially decreases. In this case, United Airlines made the mistake of boarding all passengers and then trying to find space for additional crew. The airline should bear the burden of this mistake, not the passengers who successfully boarded the plane. If the airline doesn’t like this, it should have written a different contract.
Might the airline argue that it had the right to refuse transport because Dao was “disorderly, offensive, abusive, or violent” (Rule 21H1) or causing a “disturbance” (Rule 21H4)? Although this depends on the facts, news reports suggest that Dao was not upset, and was minding his own business, until he was told that he was being involuntarily removed and he was dragged kicking and screaming from the aircraft. His being upset was caused by United Airline’s breach of its contractual duties towards him as a passenger, rather than the reverse.
The last aspect of this case – the most disturbing one – is the level of force used by the police officers. Based on the videos, most observers have concluded that the force was excessive and unnecessary given the circumstances. A deeper issue is whether the police had the authority to remove Dao in the first instance once United Airlines declared him persona non grata and asked the police to treat him as a trespasser. Presumably the police had the authority to remove him (but only with an appropriate level of force), but even so, there is a plausible argument that Dao’s injuries and damages suffered during that process were caused by the airline’s breach of contract, which specifically defines the circumstances when it can refuse transport, none of which applied in this case.
In some situations, a contractual dispute and a trespassing dispute should be kept separate. Say you hire a painter to paint the inside of your house. You refuse to pay and so the painter says, “I’m not leaving until you pay me.” When the painter refuses to leave, you call the police and ask them to remove him because he is trespassing. The proper resolution is that the painter must leave but can sue you for breach of contract.
That may be so, but in that case, the painter’s refusal to leave is incidental to the object and purpose of the contract, which is to paint the house, not stay in your house. In contrast, the object and purpose of the contract of carriage is, among other things, to require the airline to transport the passenger from location A to location B aboard aircraft C. Being on the aircraft is the whole point of the contract, and it specifically lists the situations when the airline may deny transport to a ticketed customer. Since the airline did not comply with those requirements, it should be liable for the damages associated with their breach.
You should have been on the Law Review.
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Another United incident where a bride and groom got bounced on the way to their wedding...
http://www.khou.com/news/local/bride-and-groom-booted-off-united-flight-in-houston/431644313
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Another United incident where a bride and groom got bounced on the way to their wedding...
http://www.khou.com/news/local/bride-and-groom-booted-off-united-flight-in-houston/431644313
Tough one, maybe they were being douchey and not listening and constantly going against the rules.
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Tough one, maybe they were being douchey and not listening and constantly going against the rules.
Agree. I'm guessing it wasn't even a tough one.
It takes some pretty bad behavior to have the flight crew decide to delay the flight takeoff, call a federal marshall and have customers removed from the flight.
I'll bet a donut this couple whipped out their cell phones and recorded the whole thing too, but realized it didn't paint them in the light they wanted.
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Tough one, maybe they were being douchey and not listening and constantly going against the rules.
That could be, or it could be what the WSJ wrote about today.
The company has a toxic Soviet-like culture of following the rules/manual or get fired.
No thinking or customer service is allowed. Open the rulebook and follow the procedure, end of story.
This even means to call the cops to remove anyone that will not immediately exit the plane even on the first request even if the plane has plenty of empty seats (which this story said they did). The problem is the newlyweds had "economy" seats but they were kicked off because United only had extra "economy plus" seats. Again, the manual said they cannot sit in the upgraded seat, so call the cops. (maybe that is why they were uncooperative. They were sitting on a plane with tons of empty seats and told they had to get off).
And again, some are arguing that United again violated it carriage contract with this incident.
Behind United Airlines’ Fateful Decision to Call Police
Airline’s rules-based culture in spotlight after man was dragged off flight by law enforcement
By Susan Carey
Updated April 16, 2017 8:56 p.m. ET
https://www.wsj.com/articles/behind-united-airlines-fateful-decision-to-call-police-1492384610
The recipe for the disastrous decision by United Airlines’ employees to call for police to remove a passenger from a fully booked flight was years in the making.
Like most other airlines, United Continental Holdings Inc. follows strict rules on every aspect of handling its passengers, from how to care for unaccompanied minors to whether someone gets a whole can of Coke.
Deviating from the rules is frowned upon; employees can face termination for a foul-up, according to people familiar with the matter.
At United, this has helped create a rules-based culture where its 85,000 employees are reluctant to make choices not in the “book,” according to former airline executives, current employees and people close to United.
The company “follows manuals,” said a longtime United pilot at the nation’s third-largest carrier by traffic, where he said the rule-based culture was reinforced by the merger with Continental Airlines seven years ago.
People close to the company said it could have been avoided. At least some decisions that led to the crisis were fueled by employees following rules, which are endemic to big, long-lived airlines and amount to giant manuals.
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I don't understand your obsession with him being a felon. He served his sentence got his medical license back and has been clean since.
I'm with you on this.
This is what we have a justice system for. The idea is to punish criminals and rehabilitate them. When they have served their time and demonstrated their ability to return to society, they should not be considered "lesser."
The fact that most DO consider them "lesser" is one of the main reasons for the incredibly high recidivism rate.
Yes, some felons are just bad guys (and women); when they get out of prison, they can't wait to return to their former bad ways and they end up back in prison again.
Some truly want to be "changed men" (and changed women). But then they found out nobody will hire them (or will only give them the most menial, low-wage jobs, regardless of their qualifications), and they end up turning back to crime because it's the only way they can pay their rent.
This guy served his time and been clean ever since. What else is he supposed to do? He played by the rules - even, in this case, United's rules. And yet some can't help themselves but hold his former "felon" status against him to paint him as "bad."
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Another United incident where a bride and groom got bounced on the way to their wedding...
http://www.khou.com/news/local/bride-and-groom-booted-off-united-flight-in-houston/431644313
Maybe punchin the "mile high" card a little early?
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Looks like Munoz was "half fired" for his bungling of this incident.
Will he get "all the way fired?"
United Airlines CEO Oscar Munoz No Longer Expected to Take Chairman Role in 2018
By Susan Carey
Updated April 21, 2017 5:07 p.m. ET
https://www.wsj.com/articles/united-airlines-ceo-oscar-munoz-no-longer-expected-to-take-chairman-role-in-2018-1492806979
United Continental Holdings Inc. moved to further stem fallout from the incident in which police dragged off a paying passenger from one its flights, saying its chief executive Oscar Munoz will no longer be taking on the chairman role and that it will revamp executive compensation incentives.
In a federal filing on Friday, United said its board is planning to revamp managerial incentive compensation to focus more on performance measures related to customer service.
The disclosures come almost two weeks after the incident, in which United employees called the Chicago Department of Aviation, whose police officers dragged a screaming passenger, David Dao, down the aisle and off United Express flight 3411, The issue is under investigation at both United and the aviation department.
Added
Sports and business share this in common ... when the Genernal Manager (or board) has to publicly come out and express support for the head coach (CEO) that is not good and means he is in trouble.
Mr. Munoz still has the support of the 15-member board, according to Robert Milton, the nonexecutive chairman, in a recent interview and a subsequent memo to United’s 85,000 staff last week. Another person familiar with directors’ thinking agreed, but added that “the entire board is of course concerned and is wanting to be responsive.”
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CHICAGO AVIATION POLICE QUIETLY BEING REBRANDED
Tuesday, April 25, 2017 06:35PM
http://abc7chicago.com/news/chicago-aviation-police-quietly-being-rebranded/1916798/
The ABC 7 I-Team has learned that Chicago Aviation Department officials have quietly begun retooling the Airport Police Department.
The move comes a little more than two weeks after police dragged a United passenger off a flight at O'Hare. The Chicago Aviation Police Department is being rebranded, the word "police" being stripped from their name and replaced with the word "security."
But the change from police officers to security guards has the officers' union preparing to file a labor complaint Wednesday morning claiming that the city is violating the airport police officers' contract.
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On the day the passenger dragging story broke, UAL stock closed at $70.71.
Two weeks later, it closed at $70.97.
So much for the hot takes on this being the company's undoing.
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On the day the passenger dragging story broke, UAL stock closed at $70.71.
Two weeks later, it closed at $70.97.
So much for the hot takes on this being the company's undoing.
Curious, who said it was the company's undoing?
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United will survive because there are too few options and a high cost of entry.
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Curious, who said it was the company's undoing?
Fox News, for one, suggested it:
A shocking video involving a United Airlines passenger being forefully removed from his seat and dragged out of the plane has drawn widespread outrage on social media, with many experts warning that it could do permanent damage to the brand.
Though social media trends come and go, in this new digital world where posts live forever online, experts say the dragging incident is likely to impart serious, longterm damage to the legacy carrier's brand.
Jim Linder, president and owner of marketing firm Fresh Branding Group suggests it might take United years to recover.
http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2017/04/12/united-getting-slammed-across-social-media-experts-warn-dragging-incident-may-cause-lasting-damage.html
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Fox News, for one, suggested it:
A shocking video involving a United Airlines passenger being forefully removed from his seat and dragged out of the plane has drawn widespread outrage on social media, with many experts warning that it could do permanent damage to the brand.
Though social media trends come and go, in this new digital world where posts live forever online, experts say the dragging incident is likely to impart serious, longterm damage to the legacy carrier's brand.
Jim Linder, president and owner of marketing firm Fresh Branding Group suggests it might take United years to recover.
http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2017/04/12/united-getting-slammed-across-social-media-experts-warn-dragging-incident-may-cause-lasting-damage.html
I think Murdoch has a position in American Airlines. Not shocked Fox News would find a marketing firm to predict doom for UAL.
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Fox News, for one, suggested it:
A shocking video involving a United Airlines passenger being forefully removed from his seat and dragged out of the plane has drawn widespread outrage on social media, with many experts warning that it could do permanent damage to the brand.
Though social media trends come and go, in this new digital world where posts live forever online, experts say the dragging incident is likely to impart serious, longterm damage to the legacy carrier's brand.
Jim Linder, president and owner of marketing firm Fresh Branding Group suggests it might take United years to recover.
http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2017/04/12/united-getting-slammed-across-social-media-experts-warn-dragging-incident-may-cause-lasting-damage.html
This is largely accurate and the fact that Munoz has been stripped of his upcoming chairmanship and is having his compensation plan re-worked suggests that the UAL board also agrees with this.
Such a brand loss cannot be measured by two weeks of stock price action. But if you insist that is the measure, note that UAL has badly lagged both the S&P 500 and airline index since the incident.
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Obviously the "doctor" was an aggressive, non-compliant jerk. Sometimes when you flail fists, resisting extraction, you might hit your head.
Sometimes felons who have a history of drugs-for-gay-sex deals are unruly. Here... appears to be the case.
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Such a brand loss cannot be measured by two weeks of stock price action. But if you insist that is the measure, note that UAL has badly lagged both the S&P 500 and airline index since the incident.
Badly lagged? LOL.
The airline index is up 1.65 percent since the incident (as of closing today).
UAL is up 1.63 percent since the incident.
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Badly lagged? LOL.
The airline index is up 1.65 percent since the incident (as of closing today).
UAL is up 1.63 percent since the incident.
Where did you get your numbers?
The incident was the evening of April 9 (Sunday). The story was not out and understood until sometime on April 10. Since April 10 ...
UAL -.37%
S&P 500 1.29%
Airlines 1.86%
But if you insist that we should use Friday, April 7 levels
UAL 0.63%
S&P 500 1.40%
Airlines 2.13%
And yes, these are significant differences for a two week period. Especially the airline index underperformance considering that UAL is a big part of the airline Index
Since April 7
United (UAL) = 0.63%
American (AAL) = 10.98%
Delta (DAL) = 2.66%
Southwest (LUV) = 4.40%
United competitors are flying higher because UAL is constantly screwing up.
Why do you think Munoz is getting stripped of his chairmanship and a pay cut???? It not about political correctness. He screwed up and it is costing them, so the board is punishing him!!
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Where did you get your numbers?
My numbers are from closing April 11 (the day the incident became public) to closing April 26.
UAL
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/UAL?p=UAL
Airline index
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/%5Exal?ltr=1
You, of course, are as usual shifting the goalposts from claiming this was disastrous for UAL to "Munoz screwed up and the board is punishing him."
Not the same thing.
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Fox News, for one, suggested it:
This is true, but CNN, AdAge, Chicago Tribune, Money Magzine, Bloomberg, and so many others also said the same and all used the words could or may. Too early to tell what kind of short term damage. Long term they will weather the storm unless additional incidents pile on.
Though a Georgetown marketing professor makes the argument stock price isn't the way to judge this, and will take years to rebuild brand. http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/transportation/328962-damage-to-united-airlines-brand-to-be-lasting-irreparable
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As I noted seven takes ago, I've flown United for years. My relationship with them goes back to 1980 and I have been a member of Mileage Plus almost since it started. I make no apologies for United or its behavior with Dr. Dao, but it seems that even this incident has been blown so out of proportion that it is ridiculous.
Operating an airline is a complex, capital and people intensive business. One screw-up and the Drive-By media goes berserk, picking up anything that goes wrong. With more than 400,000 people per day moved, I can promise you something goes wrong regularly. I had a minor problem with an upcoming flight for Sunday and I'm surprised two reporters weren't there to tape it. Not surprisingly, United fixed it.
United has had stock performance issues for some time. I doubt seriously that anything done with Dr. Dao has had more than an intraday impact on their share price. Since Oscar replaced Commander Jeff, many of the operational problems United has are being resolved and the level of customer service has improved dramatically. The labor problems have been fixed and the customer commitment on a day-in, day-out basis is far better than just a few short years ago.
If you wanted to see crappy airline commitment, lousy service and "don't give a damn attitudes" about customers, you should have flown them during their bankruptcy or during the summer of discontent. No, they didn't drag anyone off airplanes, but flying them was akin to being waterboarded on a regular basis. When the pilots got mad, taxiing at ORD became a three-hour tour. Flights got cancelled ostensibly because of safety but more likely because an angry pilot had a hang nail or a cockpit had a speck of dirt somewhere.
Those days, we hope, are over.
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My numbers are from closing April 11 (the day the incident became public) to closing April 26.
UAL
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/UAL?p=UAL
Airline index
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/%5Exal?ltr=1
You, of course, are as usual shifting the goalposts from claiming this was disastrous for UAL to "Munoz screwed up and the board is punishing him."
Not the same thing.
Why did you use April 11th close as a starting point? This thread was already half-way through page 2. The markets already had two days to react to the news.
And as far as the goalpost shifting, you were the one that contended that the stock price was the proper metric and you dug up some obscure news story saying the company was toast. No one here over 8 pages said the company was toast.
The stock story is not how UAL has not declined but how its immediate competitors like Southwest, Delta's and American have surged in the wake of this incident.
Here is United's real problem ... its employees want out. They are reporting customer abuse is off-the-charts since this incident. They hate going to work so they can be verbally abused and have to deal with belligerent passengers all day. They fear that anything over a heavy sigh is recorded on 5 camera phones and uploaded to social media within 10 minutes. United passengers think they have a right to yell at United employees.
So United's risk is their best employees, the one's that have options will quit, retire or explore options at other airlines. That means this incident will skim the best employees leaving them with a worse workforce.
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United Says Litany of Failures Led to Flight Fiasco
Airline’s report offers details in incident in which David Dao was dragged from plane
By Susan Carey
April 27, 2017 1:01 a.m. ET
https://www.wsj.com/articles/united-says-litany-of-failures-led-to-flight-fiasco-1493269261?mod=e2tw
A new report by United Airlines has concluded that a litany of failures in customer service, training and technology contributed to the forcible removal of a paying passenger earlier this month.
In an 11-page report, United Continental Holdings Inc. UAL 0.51% sought to give a more complete account of the events—including previously unreported details—that led to the April 9 dragging by aviation police of Dr. David Dao from a commuter flight. It said the incident, which sparked international outrage, exposed key gaps in various areas of customer service that the company promises to address this year.
It was “a failure of epic proportions that’s grown to this breach of public trust. We get that,” said United’s chief executive, Oscar Munoz, in an interview. “We let our policies and procedures get in the way of doing the right thing.”
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Why did you use April 11th close as a starting point? This thread was already half-way through page 2. The markets already had two days to react to the news.
Because that's the day the news broke.
Is it your contention that this incident was hurting UAL stock two days before it became public, with one of those two days being a Sunday?
Interesting theory. Completely insane, but interesting.
And as far as the goalpost shifting, you were the one that contended that the stock price was the proper metric and you dug up some obscure news story saying the company was toast. No one here over 8 pages said the company was toast.
Ha!
"Fox News is obscure," says the guy who regularly cites Breitbart. Classic Smuggles.
You're right, no one used the word toast.
But someone in this very thread - I think you can guess who - referred to them being in danger of "being a former airline"
Here is United's real problem ... its employees want out. They are reporting customer abuse is off-the-charts since this incident. They hate going to work so they can be verbally abused and have to deal with belligerent passengers all day. They fear that anything over a heavy sigh is recorded on 5 camera phones and uploaded to social media within 10 minutes. United passengers think they have a right to yell at United employees.
You have quite the imagination.
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United will be fine. The news cycle changes, people go back to their purchasing habits, and life goes on.
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Malaysian Airlines and United Should merge. They both make Asians disappear
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Because that's the day the news broke.
Is it your contention that this incident was hurting UAL stock two days before it became public, with one of those two days being a Sunday?
Interesting theory. Completely insane, but interesting.
Ha!
"Fox News is obscure," says the guy who regularly cites Breitbart. Classic Smuggles.
You're right, no one used the word toast.
But someone in this very thread - I think you can guess who - referred to them being in danger of "being a former airline"
You have quite the imagination.
The news was out Monday morning, April 10. That is the fact.
I said Munoz was at risk of being a former airline executive, not United would be a former airline. He was stripped of his chairmanship last week. I'll take that as being 50% right (and those that said nothing will happen are now 50% wrong).
Yes, one random Fox story, quoting one marketing expert no one has ever heard of, is the very definition of obscure. You're arguing a false premise, only you and your Fox link are arguing United was going away. No one else said this.
You are making the worst of all rookie/amateur mistakes in investing. Zero is irrelevant. United above or below April 10 or 11 level is meaningless. All investing is relative. United's stock is way behind it direct competitors of American, Southwest, and Delta. That is what says they are suffering. (note the XAL ETF you cited is equal-weighted, need a market cap weighted index if you want to make the case you are making. I used market cap weighting below).
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The news was out Monday morning, April 10. That is the fact.
Fine, go from closing April 10. Makes no real difference. The predicted long-lasting impacts never occurred.
I said Munoz was at risk of being a former airline executive, not United would be a former airline. He was stripped of his chairmanship last week. I'll take that as being 50% right (and those that said nothing will happen are now 50% wrong).
No, that's not what you said. Your post is there for everyone to see.
Yes, one random Fox story, quoting one marketing expert no one has ever heard of, is the very definition of obscure. You're arguing a false premise, only you and your Fox link are arguing United was going away. No one else said this.
I never said United was going away. I said this would blow over, and it has. It was people like you predicting long-lasting damage, etc.
You are making the worst of all rookie/amateur mistakes in investing. Zero is irrelevant. United above or below April 10 or 11 level is meaningless. All investing is relative. United's stock is way behind it direct competitors of American, Southwest, and Delta. That is what says they are suffering. (note the XAL ETF you cited is equal-weighted, need a market cap weighted index if you want to make the case you are making. I used market cap weighting below).
The Apple thread has somehow convinced me that you're not the best person to offer investing advice.
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Well, that didn't take long.
Lawyers for David Dao, the Kentucky man who was violently removed from a flight for refusing to give up his seat earlier this month, said Thursday that they have reached a confidential settlement with United Airlines.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2017/04/27/united-dragging-report-our-review-shows-that-many-things-went-wrong-that-day/?utm_term=.a378cd1177bb
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No violent removal in this one but thought I'd share: http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/27/us/delta-passenger-incident-trnd/
Happened in good ole Brew City!
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Got me an email from Oscar (as I'm sure many of the rest of you did too -- hell, dgies probably got a call). Probably part of the settlement...
Subject: Actions Speak Louder than Words
Dear StillAWarrior,
Each flight you take with us represents an important promise we make to you, our customer. It's not simply that we make sure you reach your destination safely and on time, but also that you will be treated with the highest level of service and the deepest sense of dignity and respect.
Earlier this month, we broke that trust when a passenger was forcibly removed from one of our planes. We can never say we are sorry enough for what occurred, but we also know meaningful actions will speak louder than words.
For the past several weeks, we have been urgently working to answer two questions: How did this happen, and how can we do our best to ensure this never happens again?
It happened because our corporate policies were placed ahead of our shared values. Our procedures got in the way of our employees doing what they know is right.
Fixing that problem starts now with changing how we fly, serve and respect our customers. This is a turning point for all of us here at United – and as CEO, it's my responsibility to make sure that we learn from this experience and redouble our efforts to put our customers at the center of everything we do.
That’s why we announced that we will no longer ask law enforcement to remove customers from a flight and customers will not be required to give up their seat once on board – except in matters of safety or security.
We also know that despite our best efforts, when things don’t go the way they should, we need to be there for you to make things right. There are several new ways we’re going to do just that.
We will increase incentives for voluntary rebooking up to $10,000 and will be eliminating the red tape on permanently lost bags with a new "no-questions-asked" $1,500 reimbursement policy. We will also be rolling out a new app for our employees that will enable them to provide on-the-spot goodwill gestures in the form of miles, travel credit and other amenities when your experience with us misses the mark. You can learn more about these commitments and many other changes at hub.united.com.
While these actions are important, I have found myself reflecting more broadly on the role we play and the responsibilities we have to you and the communities we serve.
I believe we must go further in redefining what United's corporate citizenship looks like in our society. You can and ought to expect more from us, and we intend to live up to those higher expectations in the way we embody social responsibility and civic leadership everywhere we operate. I hope you will see that pledge express itself in our actions going forward, of which these initial, though important, changes are merely a first step.
Our goal should be nothing less than to make you truly proud to say, "I fly United."
Ultimately, the measure of our success is your satisfaction and the past several weeks have moved us to go further than ever before in elevating your experience with us. I know our 87,000 employees have taken this message to heart, and they are as energized as ever to fulfill our promise to serve you better with each flight and earn the trust you’ve given us.
We are working harder than ever for the privilege to serve you and I know we will be stronger, better and the customer-focused airline you expect and deserve.
With Great Gratitude,
Oscar Munoz
CEO
United Airlines
Can't help but wonder if, under their new policies, they would consider Dr. Dao "a matter of safety or security." They'll still have to forcibly remove passengers from time to time; it's unavoidable. The question is whether they'll exercise better judgment in determining whether it is "a matter of safety or security" and whether they'll take steps to ensure appropriate force.
Earlier today I booked five flights for June on United. Keeping my fingers crossed for a couple of those $10,000 vouchers.
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Can't help but wonder if, under their new policies, they would consider Dr. Dao "a matter of safety or security." They'll still have to forcibly remove passengers from time to time; it's unavoidable. The question is whether they'll exercise better judgment in determining whether it is "a matter of safety or security" and whether they'll take steps to ensure appropriate force.
Earlier today I booked five flights for June on United. Keeping my fingers crossed for a couple of those $10,000 vouchers.
On the first part, if they had gotten to the $10k limit and they ended up needing to boot someone off the flight, then I don't see how it wouldn't ultimately be considered "a matter of safety or security" and security would be called. How else do you remove someone from a flight that refuses to leave the plane? And if were to say no, and then you go back and choose another random person, then why wouldn't that person just say no as well? Now that said, I doubt this scenario would present itself, because someone at some point will jump at the money.
And to the second point, I bet the amount of times United ends up shelling out $10k for displacing a passenger will be 0. I'm sure they will start at a lower number and continue increasing it. At some point someone will jump at the cash well before it hits $10k. (I'd be surprised if it ever goes above $5k.)
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On the first part, if they had gotten to the $10k limit and they ended up needing to boot someone off the flight, then I don't see how it wouldn't ultimately be considered "a matter of safety or security" and security would be called. How else do you remove someone from a flight that refuses to leave the plane? And if were to say no, and then you go back and choose another random person, then why wouldn't that person just say no as well? Now that said, I doubt this scenario would present itself, because someone at some point will jump at the money.
And to the second point, I bet the amount of times United ends up shelling out $10k for displacing a passenger will be 0. I'm sure they will start at a lower number and continue increasing it. At some point someone will jump at the cash well before it hits $10k. (I'd be surprised if it ever goes above $5k.)
I agree with everything you said. Trust me, I'd jump out of line for far less than $10k. My wife and daughter got $1k each last year on one trip. It was awesome.
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And to the second point, I bet the amount of times United ends up shelling out $10k for displacing a passenger will be 0. I'm sure they will start at a lower number and continue increasing it. At some point someone will jump at the cash well before it hits $10k. (I'd be surprised if it ever goes above $5k.)
This.
They will easily get takers at those prices. I've never taken a voluntary bump for a couple hundred, but if I was ever offered several THOUSAND, I'd do it anytime except a critical business trip.
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This.
They will easily get takers at those prices. I've never taken a voluntary bump for a couple hundred, but if I was ever offered several THOUSAND, I'd do it anytime except a critical business trip.
Exactly. Doing this would have easily avoided the whole situation. That said, its easy to say that now, hindsight is 20/20. I don't believe any of the other airlines had procedures in place to allow their gate agents to continue to increase the compensation much further than $1k.
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Got me an email from Oscar (as I'm sure many of the rest of you did too -- hell, dgies probably got a call). Probably part of the settlement...
Nope. Ms. Dgies and I got same letter you did.
And I was hoping for lunch with Oscar -- as long as it was not United Airlines' airline food!
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The Apple thread has somehow convinced me that you're not the best person to offer investing advice.
It is like my version of Godwin ...
Heisy is right and I'm totally wrong and I'm out of options. So deflect by bringing up the Apple call.
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Chicago O'Hare security chief fired weeks after United flub
https://apnews.com/20ac42f5b7f944d0b72fa5f9e08a9bc0?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=APCentralRegion
The head of security at Chicago's airports has been fired, just weeks after a passenger was dragged from a United Airlines plane by security officers at O'Hare International Airport.
The Department of Aviation said in a statement Thursday that Jeffrey Redding "has been terminated from his duties" at O'Hare and Midway airports. No reason was given.
Redding wasn't immediately available for comment late Thursday.
Redding was overseeing the investigation into the forcible removal of 69-year-old physician David Dao from the United plane by three of his officers April 9. Dao has agreed an undisclosed settlement with the airline. Dao's lawyer said Thursday that the settlement averts any lawsuit against Chicago officials.
Separately, the Chicago Tribune recently reported that Redding was fired from his previous job for sexual harassment in 2015.
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It is like my version of Godwin ...
Heisy is right and I'm totally wrong and I'm out of options. So deflect by bringing up the Apple call.
So, when you start condescendingly portraying yourself as some sort of investment guru, it's totally unfair and out of bounds to cite some of the truly terrible investment insight you've offered here?
Got it. Past performance shouldn't matter when evaluating one's investment expertise.
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I agree with everything you said. Trust me, I'd jump out of line for far less than $10k. My wife and daughter got $1k each last year on one trip. It was awesome.
I think if the airlines got creative, they could get people to give up their seats for far less.
Imagine if a United supervisor walked on the plane took to the loud speaker and said they needed four seats and the first four that raised their handed got
"this new unlocked jet black IPhone 7" (about $600) or,
"your choice of two seats in the United box at Wrigley, three rows behind the cubs dugout, we currently have over 40 dates you can pick from." Or,
Or maybe a year or two if free gogo online, or a red carpet membership, 100,000 miles in your account and on and on. A combination of the above.
Point is if they turned into a version of a game show, making it a contest to win prizes, instead of a stress point leading to dragging a passenger off the plane, it could be fun and a point of INCREASED customer satisfaction.
The problem is United is so uncreative and bureaucratic that not only is no one capable of thinking this way at the company, they would not even bring it up if they did.
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Heer's da cheapest answer. Don't over sell the flight. Yeah, der will bee a couple of unfourceen empties, butt dat should cost da airlines chump change, hey?
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I think if the airlines got creative, they could get people to give up their seats for far less.
Imagine if a United supervisor walked on the plane took to the loud speaker and said they needed four seats and the first four that raised their handed got
"this new unlocked jet black IPhone 7" (about $600) or,
"your choice of two seats in the United box at Wrigley, three rows behind the cubs dugout, we currently have over 40 dates you can pick from." Or,
Or maybe a year or two if free gogo online, or a red carpet membership, 100,000 miles in your account and on and on. A combination of the above.
Point is if they turned into a version of a game show, making it a contest to win prizes, instead of a stress point leading to dragging a passenger off the plane, it could be fun and a point of INCREASED customer satisfaction.
The problem is United is so uncreative and bureaucratic that not only is no one capable of thinking this way at the company, they would not even bring it up if they did.
I really don't see any airline taking the above "creative" approach. All of those things translate into much different values for many different people. Just offer cash and increase the value as people don't accept it until someone does.
The above also means the airline would have to keep a bunch of the above in stock that would also require additional inventory controls around them that a company like United is not used to doing.
I know there are several examples you used, but lets take the Cubs seats example. United in essence would have to keep tickets for games on hand in case they run into an overbooked situation and needed volunteers. What if the game they have tickets for passes before this scenario is encountered? If they don't keep them on hand, are they going to have to go and outbid whoever holds such tickets on stubhub or whatever so they can guarantee them? What if someone is willing to go, but the date for the tickets there is a conflict? I would also assume that half of the flight (if flying out of ORD are people that are not from Chicago).
By doing the above exercise, you are further limiting your choice of volunteers. Other examples, I would rather take $600 over a new iPhone, I already have an iPhone. Memberships, you are again limiting those that already have them, as well as those that wouldn't be able to take advantage of them.
I don't see how the above makes sense at all.
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Chicago O'Hare security chief fired weeks after United flub
https://apnews.com/20ac42f5b7f944d0b72fa5f9e08a9bc0?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=APCentralRegion
The head of security at Chicago's airports has been fired, just weeks after a passenger was dragged from a United Airlines plane by security officers at O'Hare International Airport.
The Department of Aviation said in a statement Thursday that Jeffrey Redding "has been terminated from his duties" at O'Hare and Midway airports. No reason was given.
Redding wasn't immediately available for comment late Thursday.
Redding was overseeing the investigation into the forcible removal of 69-year-old physician David Dao from the United plane by three of his officers April 9. Dao has agreed an undisclosed settlement with the airline. Dao's lawyer said Thursday that the settlement averts any lawsuit against Chicago officials.
Separately, the Chicago Tribune recently reported that Redding was fired from his previous job for sexual harassment in 2015.
So I haven't paid too much attention to what the head of security did or did not do, and it sounds like his job history wasn't all that great, but why exactly was he fired?
And to piggyback on this, it seems kind of hard to tell on the videos, but was there some better way to extract Dao from the plane?
For this argument, let's just go ahead and use as an assumption that he absolutely needed to be removed. I would imagine trying to remove someone from the tight confines of an airplane seat, with the armrests down, someone resisting and holding on to them, would be quite hard to do. In fact, I would be surprised if the passenger didn't come away hurt in some form or fashion.
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I really don't see any airline taking the above "creative" approach. All of those things translate into much different values for many different people. Just offer cash and increase the value as people don't accept it until someone does.
The above also means the airline would have to keep a bunch of the above in stock that would also require additional inventory controls around them that a company like United is not used to doing.
I know there are several examples you used, but lets take the Cubs seats example. United in essence would have to keep tickets for games on hand in case they run into an overbooked situation and needed volunteers. What if the game they have tickets for passes before this scenario is encountered? If they don't keep them on hand, are they going to have to go and outbid whoever holds such tickets on stubhub or whatever so they can guarantee them? What if someone is willing to go, but the date for the tickets there is a conflict? I would also assume that half of the flight (if flying out of ORD are people that are not from Chicago).
By doing the above exercise, you are further limiting your choice of volunteers. Other examples, I would rather take $600 over a new iPhone, I already have an iPhone. Memberships, you are again limiting those that already have them, as well as those that wouldn't be able to take advantage of them.
I don't see how the above makes sense at all.
Not to mention United would have to hire dozens, if not hundreds, of employees just to administer this type of program. You need people to decide what the prizes are going to be, develop administer, and train employees on the policy, negotiate for and purchase the prizes, manage the logistics, keep the books and records,etc.
Much cheaper to hand out checks, even if the dollar amount of the checks is higher than the "cost" of the prizes.
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Not to mention United would have to hire dozens, if not hundreds, of employees just to administer this type of program. You need people to decide what the prizes are going to be, develop administer, and train employees on the policy, negotiate for and purchase the prizes, manage the logistics, keep the books and records,etc.
Much cheaper to hand out checks, even if the dollar amount of the checks is higher than the "cost" of the prizes.
Hundreds? Are you serious?
Try ... zero extra employees. Try zero extra inventory. You don't need the prizes at the airport. You don't even need an inventory. (and remember that cash can always be a prize).
First, someone is administering the program they have now. The gate agent is not reaching into his/her back pocket and peeling Benjamins off a wad of cash they pulled out. They can administer this program. (besides, soon there will be no administrative people left in companies, only more directives for the programmers to create on their system. If you know administrators, they are destined for unemployment, unless they can code.)
So the programmers will set up the systems and rules and a bit of training on how to run the program at the gate (which they regularly get anyway) and they are ready to go. What I just described is what they have, with only one prize option, cash. All they have to do is set up more prizes, and the rules to acquire them.
So, if someone wants to an iphone for their seat, you punch into the computer that person name and it is shipped directly from Apple overnight to the address fo their choice. That way United is out of the picture. If the phone is broken, or they want apple care, they can deal directly with Apple, not United.
The cubs no longer have paper tickets, punch into the computer their name and mobile number and the tickets are transferred immediately.
Of course, these are not the only prize ideas. They potential list of items can go on and on and on.
The point is to offer a positive customer experience and make it cost less money than the soulless "take the cash or get beat up" approach they now have.
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What concerns me about the criticism above is you seem to take the airline's approach. Customers are stupid, demanding and need to be tolerated. So why should we go out of our way to make the process fun, interesting and rewarding? Nah, that's too hard, get the thugs in here to beat the crap out them. That way the rest of the cattle, I mean customers, we learn from this and shut out and behave.
Your criticism assumes they always have an adversarial position with their customers. Instead, every situation should be looked on as an opportunity to make the customer happy they are doing service with you, including overbooking an airline. Instead United is so dysfunctional that they beat up a paying customer rather than seeking a solution that makes everyone happy.
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Not to mention United would have to hire dozens, if not hundreds, of employees just to administer this type of program. You need people to decide what the prizes are going to be, develop administer, and train employees on the policy, negotiate for and purchase the prizes, manage the logistics, keep the books and records,etc.
Much cheaper to hand out checks, even if the dollar amount of the checks is higher than the "cost" of the prizes.
Yes!!
And the airline industry is complex enough, adding more complexity like this would be not a wise idea. Smart businesses keep it simple and do simple really well.
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Hundreds? Are you serious?
Try ... zero extra employees. Try zero extra inventory. You don't need the prizes at the airport. You don't even need an inventory. (and remember that cash can always be a prize).
How can you make this claim? All the API work from an IT perspective alone would be incremental. Those Cubs tickets, you have to tie into a system with the Cubs or MLB to see what tix are available. That iPhone idea, is that going to work with the customer's carrier plan? Are you unduly putting extra surcharges on the bill because of how some carriers handle smart phones?
Cash is king. The other solutions are semi-attractive, but with cash customer can choose what they want to do, not be forced into picking what's behind door 1, 2, or 3 in a Let's make a deal game.
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Heer's da cheapest answer. Don't over sell the flight. Yeah, der will bee a couple of unfourceen empties, butt dat should cost da airlines chump change, hey?
First, the flight was not overbooked. So if those rules did not exist, this problem would still arise.
The reason overbooking exists is they do not allow transferring of tickets. They charge you a hefty change fee. You cannot simply hand your ticket to another family member/friend/co-worker to take your seat without paying a change fee. This is where all the problems begin.
What they need to do is treat airline tickets like concert tickets, not refundable and fully transferrable. You buy the seat, it is sold, done as far as the airline is concerned (same with the concert seat)) If you don't use it, that is your problem.
Now the reason you don't use it is your plans change, so set up a ticket exchange (Expedia and Orbitz will have this ready in five minutes) where you can exchange your tickets for another seat on a different flight or even just sell it outright.
Last minute flyers can go on a ticket exchange and pay "scalper prices" to get on the flight of their choice. Low budget flyers can buy last minute seats at cut-rate prices (remember airline seats are like fresh vegetables, they have to be used or they are worthless, so you steeply discount the seat as the time of departure approaches because it is worth zero when the flight leaves.)
Capitalism works every time it is tried. As soon as the airlines try this approach, they better everyone will be.
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How can you make this claim? All the API work from an IT perspective alone would be incremental. Those Cubs tickets, you have to tie into a system with the Cubs or MLB to see what tix are available. That iPhone idea, is that going to work with the customer's carrier plan? Are you unduly putting extra surcharges on the bill because of how some carriers handle smartphones?
Cash is king. The other solutions are semi-attractive, but with a cash, customer can choose what they want to do, not be forced into picking what's behind door 1, 2, or 3 in a Let's make a deal game.
Like I said, they are two of many many ideas. The reason you do this is you are offering aspirational items that some value more than cash. So a $600 iPhone is valued more than $1000 cash by some. If they take it, the airline saves $400!. Ditto Cubs tickets over a larger value of cash.
The idea is to save the airline money by offering the customer something they assign a value to that is less than the cash. (gift cards are the same, people think a $200 Bloomingdale gift card is more "valuable" that $200 cash. That is why gift cards are so popular).
To your specific questions ...
I said on "unlocked" iPhone. It will work on every/any carrier.
The Cubs/MLB already have the system in place to transfer tickets. If you have a paperless ticket/account, you can transfer it with a push of a button (same as you can with you MU ticket account).
This stuff is easy to do. All that prevents it is the mindset/approach.
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Like I said, they are two of many many ideas. The reason you do this is you are offering aspirational items that some value more than cash. So a $600 iPhone is valued more than $1000 cash by some. If they take it, the airline saves $400!. Ditto Cubs tickets over a larger value of cash.
The idea is to save the airline money by offering the customer something they assign a value to that is less than the cash. (gift cards are the same, people think a $200 Bloomingdale gift card is more "valuable" that $200 cash. That is why gift cards are so popular).
To your specific questions ...
I said on "unlocked" iPhone. It will work on every/any carrier.
The Cubs/MLB already have the system in place to transfer tickets. If you have a paperless ticket/account, you can transfer it with a push of a button (same as you can with you MU ticket account).
This stuff is easy to do. All that prevents it is the mindset/approach.
Do you really think some people value a $200 Bloomingdale gift card over $200 cash????
Honestly, this whole thing you're crafting here is just too complex and would dramatically slow down the departure of the aircraft as the gate agent would have to run through so many different options.
Cash has a set value that can be used for anything, its much quicker to start at a certain point and then go up until someone takes it. Otherwise you start with $200 Bloomingdales gift card, Cubs tickets for 5/22, iPhone, $400 Bloomingdales gift card, etc., etc.
Additionally, who the hell is going to view this as a "game show" and get excited about this? They are being inconvenienced and have to take a different flight. I don't think anyone will be excited that they got some Cubs tickets out of it.
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Jigawatts, respectfully your idea is among the most ill-conceived things I've read recently. There's a reason that mankind invented currency about the same time as they invented the wheel. Seriously, didn't you ever take an economics or banking course in your life?
Or perhaps you work at a job where they give you coal one week, meat the next, and timber to build a shelter the third. The opportunity cost of matching up exact needs/desires for a transaction is beyond prohibitive. Please quit while you're behind.
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Do you really think some people value a $200 Bloomingdale gift card over $200 cash????
Honestly, this whole thing you're crafting here is just too complex and would dramatically slow down the departure of the aircraft as the gate agent would have to run through so many different options.
Cash has a set value that can be used for anything, its much quicker to start at a certain point and then go up until someone takes it. Otherwise you start with $200 Bloomingdales gift card, Cubs tickets for 5/22, iPhone, $400 Bloomingdales gift card, etc., etc.
Additionally, who the hell is going to view this as a "game show" and get excited about this? They are being inconvenienced and have to take a different flight. I don't think anyone will be excited that they got some Cubs tickets out of it.
Why do gift cards exist in the first place? Or, more to the point, why aren't Visa/Mastercard "cash" gift cards far and away the most popular? After all, they are cash, good anywhere.
The answer is the higher-end stores are aspirational. Some would like to shop there, or get a new iPhone, or go to the cubs game in nice seats but cannot get themselves to do it because of their budget. But when offered the chance to "just say yes" at it's yours, for the mild inconvenience of flying the next day, many would jump at this. This is why it is called "aspirational" and many assign it a higher value than the same amount of cash.
Earlier we had these two post ...
And to the second point, I bet the amount of times United ends up shelling out $10k for displacing a passenger will be 0. I'm sure they will start at a lower number and continue increasing it. At some point someone will jump at the cash well before it hits $10k. (I'd be surprised if it ever goes above $5k.)
I agree with everything you said. Trust me, I'd jump out of line for far less than $10k. My wife and daughter got $1k each last year on one trip. It was awesome.
If you guys honestly think it is going into the thousands to get people out of their seats, and I can do it for one $600 iPhone (and free ride home and back to the airport, or a night in the lovely O'Hare Hilton, plus a rebooking), United will pay me so much for saving them millions that I will be flying private the rest of my life.
And it will not take more than a few minutes. 120 people on the plane, need four seats. Who wants an iPhone to take the flight tomorrow? Four hands go up. Done, get your stuff and get off the plane and we will sort it out after it leaves. It took me longer to type this than the process will take.
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Jigawatts, respectfully your idea is among the most ill-conceived things I've read recently. There's a reason that mankind invented currency about the same time as they invented the wheel. Seriously, didn't you ever take an economics or banking course in your life?
Or perhaps you work at a job where they give you coal one week, meat the next, and timber to build a shelter the third. The opportunity cost of matching up exact needs/desires for a transaction is beyond prohibitive. Please quit while you're behind.
You seem to think I'm running a game show for to all 120 people to decide what they want. That is why you wrote:
The opportunity cost of matching up exact needs/desires for a transaction is beyond prohibitive.
I only need four hands out of 120 to go up. I'm trying to save the airline $5k a seat (because no one disagreed wth Still and NYC just above).
You guys all disappoint me, I feel like I'm arguing with a bunch of soulless middle managers that think creativity is a diesase.
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You seem to think I'm running a game show for to all 120 people to decide what they want. That is why you wrote:
The opportunity cost of matching up exact needs/desires for a transaction is beyond prohibitive.
I only need four hands out of 120 to go up. I'm trying to save the airline $5k a seat (because no one disagreed wth Still and NYC just above).
You guys all disappoint me, I feel like I'm arguing with a bunch of soulless middle managers that think creativity is a diesase.
Creativity is perfect for things like art and dinner choices.
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I think if the airlines got creative, they could get people to give up their seats for far less.
Imagine if a United supervisor walked on the plane took to the loud speaker and said they needed four seats and the first four that raised their handed got
"this new unlocked jet black IPhone 7" (about $600) or,
"your choice of two seats in the United box at Wrigley, three rows behind the cubs dugout, we currently have over 40 dates you can pick from." Or,
Or maybe a year or two if free gogo online, or a red carpet membership, 100,000 miles in your account and on and on. A combination of the above.
Point is if they turned into a version of a game show, making it a contest to win prizes, instead of a stress point leading to dragging a passenger off the plane, it could be fun and a point of INCREASED customer satisfaction.
The problem is United is so uncreative and bureaucratic that not only is no one capable of thinking this way at the company, they would not even bring it up if they did.
I'm with glow (and pretty much everyone else) on this one. I think this is honestly a pretty awful idea for a lot of reasons. You're "solving" a problem that doesn't exit. I'm going to guess that United gives hundreds if not thousands of vouchers every single day. I would say that somewhere in the neighborhood of 50% of the flights that I'm on they make an offer, and more often than not there is a taker of the first offer. It works smoothly and efficiently. You refer to the "stress point leading to dragging a passenger off the plane." I'm aware of one such situation in all the years of flying that I've done (and heard about). I'm really struggling with why the airlines would overhaul an entire system that generally works very well in response to one instance where the system probably would have worked if only the people managing it wouldn't have been idiots.
And you're probably correct, you're a creative business genius, and pretty much literally everyone else is wrong on this one.
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Why do gift cards exist in the first place? Or, more to the point, why aren't Visa/Mastercard "cash" gift cards far and away the most popular? After all, they are cash, good anywhere.
The answer is the higher-end stores are aspirational. Some would like to shop there, or get a new iPhone, or go to the cubs game in nice seats but cannot get themselves to do it because of their budget. But when offered the chance to "just say yes" at it's yours, for the mild inconvenience of flying the next day, many would jump at this. This is why it is called "aspirational" and many assign it a higher value than the same amount of cash.
Earlier we had these two post ...
If you guys honestly think it is going into the thousands to get people out of their seats, and I can do it for one $600 iPhone (and free ride home and back to the airport, or a night in the lovely O'Hare Hilton, plus a rebooking), United will pay me so much for saving them millions that I will be flying private the rest of my life.
And it will not take more than a few minutes. 120 people on the plane, need four seats. Who wants an iPhone to take the flight tomorrow? Four hands go up. Done, get your stuff and get off the plane and we will sort it out after it leaves. It took me longer to type this than the process will take.
And typically what happens is, "who wants a $400 voucher to take the flight tomorrow" and four hands go up. Maybe it goes to $800. And that costs United far less than purchasing (and storing, tracking, etc.) a bunch of iPhones, tickets, gift cards, etc. And because it's a United voucher, you build brand loyalty because the person you just gave a voucher to will be flying your airline next time. Again, you're "solving" a problem that doesn't exist.
This is such an absurd suggestion that if it was coming from anyone else, I'd think you were trolling.
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And typically what happens is, "who wants a $400 voucher to take the flight tomorrow" and four hands go up. Maybe it goes to $800. And that costs United far less than purchasing (and storing, tracking, etc.) a bunch of iPhones, tickets, gift cards, etc. And because it's a United voucher, you build brand loyalty because the person you just gave a voucher to will be flying your airline next time. Again, you're "solving" a problem that doesn't exist.
This is such an absurd suggestion that if it was coming from anyone else, I'd think you were trolling.
So which is it $400 to $800 or several thousand to get people out of their seat? Becuase you agreed with this ...
And to the second point, I bet the amount of times United ends up shelling out $10k for displacing a passenger will be 0. I'm sure they will start at a lower number and continue increasing it. At some point someone will jump at the cash well before it hits $10k. (I'd be surprised if it ever goes above $5k.)
I agree with everything you said. Trust me, I'd jump out of line for far less than $10k. My wife and daughter got $1k each last year on one trip. It was awesome.
I was proposing a way to prevent the airlines from paying thousands per seat ... maybe my mistake was listening to you in the first place.
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First, the flight was not overbooked. So if those rules did not exist, this problem would still arise.
The reason overbooking exists is they do not allow transferring of tickets. They charge you a hefty change fee. You cannot simply hand your ticket to another family member/friend/co-worker to take your seat without paying a change fee. This is where all the problems begin.
What they need to do is treat airline tickets like concert tickets, not refundable and fully transferrable. You buy the seat, it is sold, done as far as the airline is concerned (same with the concert seat)) If you don't use it, that is your problem.
Now the reason you don't use it is your plans change, so set up a ticket exchange (Expedia and Orbitz will have this ready in five minutes) where you can exchange your tickets for another seat on a different flight or even just sell it outright.
Last minute flyers can go on a ticket exchange and pay "scalper prices" to get on the flight of their choice. Low budget flyers can buy last minute seats at cut-rate prices (remember airline seats are like fresh vegetables, they have to be used or they are worthless, so you steeply discount the seat as the time of departure approaches because it is worth zero when the flight leaves.)
Capitalism works every time it is tried. As soon as the airlines try this approach, they better everyone will be.
Oh good. I'm really excited to buy airline tickets just like concert tickets... you know, like when some individual or company uses a bot or early access to buy a crap-ton of tickets and then jacks up the price. Perfect.
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Oh good. I'm really excited to buy airline tickets just like concert tickets... you know, like when some individual or company uses a bot or early access to buy a crap-ton of tickets and then jacks up the price. Perfect.
Easy to prevent
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So which is it $400 to $800 or several thousand to get people out of their seat? Becuase you agreed with this ...
I was proposing a way to prevent the airlines from paying thousands per seat ... maybe my mistake was listening to you in the first place.
You're not a very good reader, but that's nothing new. Agreeing that it likely will never go above $5000 does not suggest in any way that I think it will often get over $1000. I also said that my wife got $1000 and it was awesome. So, to answer your question (which wouldn't need an answer if you had any reading comprehension), typically people will jump on these at the same price range they always have. From time to time, it will go a little higher (as it did for my family once). Maybe in rare situations it will go even higher. And it likely will never go above $5000. There is absolutely nothing inconsistent about any of that. But keep fighting the fight for your ridiculous idea. I'm surprised you have time to be posting here, what with the airlines probably ringing your phone off the hook.
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Easy to prevent
Incidentally, while there are wrinkles that would need to be worked out, I think there is some merit to this idea that you raised. I'm not always against you.
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Airlines are classic example of business being run by Business School theoretical concepts as opposed to common sense and understanding of the Marquette. I have over 5 million air miles on the various airlines and have witnessed the continuous and steady downtrend.
The whole notion of optimization of the flight is fine in theory but in practice it will continue to cause problems. The customers are crammed into smaller and smaller seats and the overhead bin capacity is fixed so the basic tension from all of that is quite high.The scramble just to get on the planes puts people in a very bad mood. The overbooking so that every seat is full makes matters worse. I would prefer to see the airlines go back to less seats on the plane and not overbook. Charge a correspondingly higher fare.
The airlines are putting resources into making the first class sections of international and coast to coast flights something that is attractive but they have gone the complete opposite direction with the bulk of the seats.
The other thing is beginning about 10 years ago the authority of the gate agents has been diminished. It used to be that they had considerable discretion to deal with many matters. Today they have none. Everything exactly by the book , which is also a prescription for disaster.
The airline experience today is one of the most negative consumer experiences out there.
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You're not a very good reader, but that's nothing new. Agreeing that it likely will never go above $5000 does not suggest in any way that I think it will often get over $1000. I also said that my wife got $1000 and it was awesome. So, to answer your question (which wouldn't need an answer if you had any reading comprehension), typically people will jump on these at the same price range they always have. From time to time, it will go a little higher (as it did for my family once). Maybe in rare situations it will go even higher. And it likely will never go above $5000. There is absolutely nothing inconsistent about any of that. But keep fighting the fight for your ridiculous idea. I'm surprised you have time to be posting here, what with the airlines probably ringing your phone off the hook.
My idea was predicated on a way to save the airlines money. Instead of offering $1,500, $2,000 or $3,000 for a seat, if they could entice someone with a $600 iPhone, they airline wins.
If you tell me $400 to $800 will get the vast majority out of their seat, then a $600 iPhone is not necessary.
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Incidentally, while there are wrinkles that would need to be worked out, I think there is some merit to this idea that you raised. I'm not always against you.
To further this idea and answer the idea of bots buying tickets and "cornering" seats.
TSA rules will not allow bots to buy massive amounts of tickets and corner seats on a flight. Every buyer has to provide a birthday (as the use it to identify you) so every buyer has to be and actual human being and they cannot be on the no-fly list.
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My idea was predicated on a way to save the airlines money. Instead of offering $1,500, $2,000 or $3,000 for a seat, if they could entice someone with a $600 iPhone, they airline wins.
If you tell me $400 to $800 will get the vast majority out of their seat, then a $600 iPhone is not necessary.
I understand that, and I have several thoughts. First, I do believe that in the vast majority of cases, $400 to $800 will get the job done. Second, I believe that a $1,500 voucher for United's own product probably had a lower actual cost to the airline than a $600 iPhone. Finally, I think that the vast majority of people would prefer the cash or flight voucher.
I'm sometimes amused that some people think these airlines (and other businesses) are profit above all ogres, but then think that they're just throwing money away. Airlines offer flight vouchers because it works well for them, it's simple to administer and it doesn't cost them much money.
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I understand that, and I have several thoughts. First, I do believe that in the vast majority of cases, $400 to $800 will get the job done. Second, I believe that a $1,500 voucher for United's own product probably had a lower actual cost to the airline than a $600 iPhone. Finally, I think that the vast majority of people would prefer the cash or flight voucher.
I'm sometimes amused that some people think these airlines (and other businesses) are profit above all ogres, but then think that they're just throwing money away. Airlines offer flight vouchers because it works well for them, it's simple to administer and it doesn't cost them much money.
Now, this argument against it makes sense, unlike those argument that it would take hundreds of employees or create a bureaucratic nightmare. Such a program is not hard to implement, but I realize this is United and they can probably turn it into a mess.
I should have been more clear before ... would you rather have a $600 iPhone or $1000 credit to buy an airline ticket. No airline is giving you actually cash but a credit to buy another airline ticket.
Yes, a credit for another ticket is a non-cash expense that will result in a loss of revenue (when the credit is used) and not an expense to hit the bottom line. If the accounting treatment is the issue, then trade iPhones with Apple (or Cubs tickets, or whatever) for airline travel credits on United. That makes it the economically the same for United (and Apple gets to buy corporate travel without spending actual cash). Then whatever results in a lower cost is the way to go for United.
But if the vast majority of people will take less than $800, and not thousands and thousands as suggested before, then no reason to do it.
Another idea instead of an iPhone, instead of offering a $79 room at the O'Hare Hilton, offer a $299 room in the loop and a dinner voucher at a decent restaurant. So forget the iPhone, offer a semi-decent night in Chicago instead of a quasi-prison cell at the O'Hare Hilton and a credit to buy another ticket.
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I think if the airlines got creative, they could get people to give up their seats for far less.
Imagine if a United supervisor walked on the plane took to the loud speaker and said they needed four seats and the first four that raised their handed got
"this new unlocked jet black IPhone 7" (about $600) or, ...
How many of you people have actually spent any time with the airline industry? Not many based on these answers.
Rule 1 in the Industry: NEVER FORK OUT CASH FOR ANYTHING!!!!
Rule 2 in the Industry: YOU GET FIRED IMMEDIATELY FOR BREAKING RULE 1!
Denied boarding compensation isn't cash. It's the right to buy a United ticket on a future flight. If they give you discounts on future airfare, OK, maybe that makes sense. But, a $1,000 credit against two trips to Europe or the Far East, well, isn't a huge number but may help at the margin. So if you want two round-trips to Wichita via Houston and Denver, yeup. But to London, Paris or the Far East, forget it!
Your creativity is cash. The iPhone is cash out the door. So are the Cubs tickets. And, to Chick's point, they will require a bureaucracy because the United States Department of the Treasury, Internal Revenue Service, has a phrase for Iphones, Cubs Tickets and, yes, cash...
Taxable Income.
And it has to be reported. Which means a 1099 for everyone who gets creative compensation.
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How many of you people have actually spent any time with the airline industry? Not many based on these answers.
Rule 1 in the Industry: NEVER FORK OUT CASH FOR ANYTHING!!!!
Rule 2 in the Industry: YOU GET FIRED IMMEDIATELY FOR BREAKING RULE 1!
Denied boarding compensation isn't cash. It's the right to buy a United ticket on a future flight. If they give you discounts on future airfare, OK, maybe that makes sense. But, a $1,000 credit against two trips to Europe or the Far East, well, isn't a huge number but may help at the margin. So if you want two round-trips to Wichita via Houston and Denver, yeup. But to London, Paris or the Far East, forget it!
Your creativity is cash. The iPhone is cash out the door. So are the Cubs tickets. And, to Chick's point, they will require a bureaucracy because the United States Department of the Treasury, Internal Revenue Service, has a phrase for Iphones, Cubs Tickets and, yes, cash...
Taxable Income.
And it has to be reported. Which means a 1099 for everyone who gets creative compensation.
Stop with the bureaucracy. Reporting to the IRS is a one time deal involving a few lines of code. Welcome to 2017, no one employs "accountants" filling in spreadsheets with #2 pencils, or even using excel.
The non-cash argument makes sense.
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Stop with the bureaucracy. Reporting to the IRS is a one time deal involving a few lines of code. Welcome to 2017, no one employs "accountants" filling in spreadsheets with #2 pencils, or even using excel.
The non-cash argument makes sense.
It is not a "few lines of code". You would have to have the passenger fill out a W-9 with their name, address. and social security number (and that would probably have to be done before the plane takes off), make sure that form gets to the accounting department, enter that information into the ERP system, send out thousands of 1099s at the end of the year, and then deal with hundreds of phone calls from people who received the 1099 who want to argue about the dollar value you placed on their IPhone. I know; in my organization, I am responsible for all that kind of stuff.
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It is not a "few lines of code". You would have to have the passenger fill out a W-9 with their name, address. and social security number (and that would probably have to be done before the plane takes off), make sure that form gets to the accounting department, enter that information into the ERP system, send out thousands of 1099s at the end of the year, and then deal with hundreds of phone calls from people who received the 1099 who want to argue about the dollar value you placed on their IPhone. I know; in my organization, I am responsible for all that kind of stuff.
You need to get a big bonus from your company at the end of the year .
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It is not a "few lines of code". You would have to have the passenger fill out a W-9 with their name, address. and social security number (and that would probably have to be done before the plane takes off), make sure that form gets to the accounting department, enter that information into the ERP system, send out thousands of 1099s at the end of the year, and then deal with hundreds of phone calls from people who received the 1099 who want to argue about the dollar value you placed on their IPhone. I know; in my organization, I am responsible for all that kind of stuff.
Huh ... before the plane takes off? The plane is leaving the next day. Are you suggesting that have to do all this before you get out of the seat you're giving up thus holding up everyone else? Completely unnecessary.
All the information to generate a 1099 is already in the system and it can flag you for the rest. The "accounting department" is a computer program. This is all mechanical stuff that requires no human interaction. It is just filling out forms on a computer screen that already has 80% of the information. Since no judgment involved in the process, no employees are needed.
(JP Morgan produces millions of 1099 a year. Can you point me to the several hundred thousand employees that do this? IF you not sure, try zero, the system produces all of it automatically. All they need is electricity.)
All you people that are insisting that this is too hard, too complicated requires too many people ... let me introduce you to the retail industry, the newspaper industry, the taxi industiry, the hotel industry (AirBNB). Becuase you have exactly the attitude that makes you next.
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As noted above, the reason this would not be done is it does not save money. The idea that this is not doable because it requires too much bureaucracy does not recognize the reality of 2017.
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Huh ... before the plane takes off? The plane is leaving the next day. Are you suggesting that have to do all this before you get out of the seat you're giving up thus holding up everyone else? Completely unnecessary.
All the information to generate a 1099 is already in the system and it can flag you for the rest.
As noted above, the reason this would not be done is it does not save money. The idea that this is not doable because it requires too much bureaucracy does not recognize the reality of 2017.
Jig: Afraid not. United does not have access to my Social Security number, for one thing. They have a Mileage Plus number which has my name and address. It also captures my activity with United since 1984. It does not capture confidential customer information.
I know they have contractors and other employees but adding systems and compliance is incredibly expensive just to give an iPhone or Cubs tickets away. While I'll acknowledge that United has sophisticated reporting and security systems in place for its IT on payments and on employee and customer confidential information, each of these systems has their own protocols and requires a significant investment in people and equipment. While talented, I question whether an airline's team could just heap more responsibility and a new reporting system on these people.
This isn't AirBnb or Uber. United carries more than 430,000 passengers worldwide each day. They have to position nearly 1.000 aircraft, 20,000 pilots and only God knows how many flight attendants, mechanical staff, gate agents and support personnel. For on-board teams, they must make sure they're not "over the limit" both daily and monthly. It does take a massive support team to make this happen.
A seemingly simple task, like an iPhone give-away, sorry to say, has regulations and reporting requirements that for most companies create a ridiculously expensive compliance burden. Our current President is trying to deregulate but "Draining the Swamp" is proving much harder than he thought!
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Jig: Afraid not. United does not have access to my Social Security number, for one thing. They have a Mileage Plus number which has my name and address. It also captures my activity with United since 1984. It does not capture confidential customer information.
I know they have contractors and other employees but adding systems and compliance is incredibly expensive just to give an iPhone or Cubs tickets away. While I'll acknowledge that United has sophisticated reporting and security systems in place for its IT on payments and on employee and customer confidential information, each of these systems has their own protocols and requires a significant investment in people and equipment. While talented, I question whether an airline's team could just heap more responsibility and a new reporting system on these people.
This isn't AirBnb or Uber. United carries more than 430,000 passengers worldwide each day. They have to position nearly 1.000 aircraft, 20,000 pilots and only God knows how many flight attendants, mechanical staff, gate agents and support personnel. For on-board teams, they must make sure they're not "over the limit" both daily and monthly. It does take a massive support team to make this happen.
A seemingly simple task, like an iPhone give-away, sorry to say, has regulations and reporting requirements that for most companies create a ridiculously expensive compliance burden. Our current President is trying to deregulate but "Draining the Swamp" is proving much harder than he thought!
The IRS previously ruled an airline voucher for an overbooked flight is deferred income and a taxable event, it must be reported and documented as such.
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-wd/0605011.pdf
However,m the IRS also ruled that a 1099 is not required by the airline. You have to voluntarily report it. So none of the above applies. The form of the compensation does not change the airline reporting responsibility.
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The IRS previously ruled an airline voucher for an overbooked flight is deferred income and a taxable event, it must be reported and documented as such.
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-wd/0605011.pdf
However,m the IRS also ruled that a 1099 is not required by the airline. You have to voluntarily report it. So none of the above applies. The form of the compensation does not change the airline reporting responsibility.
A voucher for a service is different from actual merchandise. But I guess you know better than someone who actually does this for a living, so I will defer to your obsessive need to be right about this. And everything else, for that matter.
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A voucher for a service is different from actual merchandise. But I guess you know better than someone who actually does this for a living, so I will defer to your obsessive need to be right about this. And everything else, for that matter.
Chick, I defer to you!
Father Ryan woman, Marquette grad and CFO. I suspect you know!
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A voucher for a service is different from actual merchandise. But I guess you know better than someone who actually does this for a living, so I will defer to your obsessive need to be right about this. And everything else, for that matter.
Except you failed to mention that $600 is the limit for the 1099. So a $600 iPhone will not generate one.
But you're probably right on this but everything that is wrong with corporate America and why all the money and power is going to Silicon Valley is your insistence that it would take hundreds of employees for the airline to send out a few thousand 1099-MISC.
The Rise of the 1099 Economy
DEC 11, 2015 12:31 PM EST
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-12-11/the-gig-economy-is-showing-up-in-irs-s-1099-forms
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So which is it $400 to $800 or several thousand to get people out of their seat? Becuase you agreed with this ...
I was proposing a way to prevent the airlines from paying thousands per seat ... maybe my mistake was listening to you in the first place.
First time getting back on here since my last post, but you completely took my $5k comment out of context.
In every overbooked situation I've seen in person, it's never gone above $500. I said I thought it would never go above $5k. I honestly don't think it will go above $2k, but I was attempting to take a conservative approach.
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Why do gift cards exist in the first place? Or, more to the point, why aren't Visa/Mastercard "cash" gift cards far and away the most popular? After all, they are cash, good anywhere.
The answer is the higher-end stores are aspirational. Some would like to shop there, or get a new iPhone, or go to the cubs game in nice seats but cannot get themselves to do it because of their budget. But when offered the chance to "just say yes" at it's yours, for the mild inconvenience of flying the next day, many would jump at this. This is why it is called "aspirational" and many assign it a higher value than the same amount of cash.
Earlier we had these two post ...
If you guys honestly think it is going into the thousands to get people out of their seats, and I can do it for one $600 iPhone (and free ride home and back to the airport, or a night in the lovely O'Hare Hilton, plus a rebooking), United will pay me so much for saving them millions that I will be flying private the rest of my life.
And it will not take more than a few minutes. 120 people on the plane, need four seats. Who wants an iPhone to take the flight tomorrow? Four hands go up. Done, get your stuff and get off the plane and we will sort it out after it leaves. It took me longer to type this than the process will take.
People don't give out gift cards because they are "aspirational". They give out gift cards because they are more personal than cash.
Instead of giving someone $50, you give them $50 in an REI giftcard because you know they like to go fishing or something. This has nothing to do with aspiration.
And again, I definitely do not think it will take thousands to get people out of their seats. I'm sure that will occur a handful of times per year, but the majority of the time, this is settled around $400 (in my experience).
And on your last part, I like how you say it won't take more than a few minutes, because you are assuming that there are going to be 4 people on the flight, that are willing to reschedule their flight by receiving an iPhone. I said it would take quite some time because you are not going to find 4 people willing to do so right away (I'm sure this could potentially happen once or twice).
Instead, based on what you are proposing, you would then have to switch to some other prize. And then when not enough people take that, to another prize, and then maybe a gift card to a store, then maybe a gift card to another store, and then maybe you need to increase the value of the gift card to the first store, and on and on.
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People don't give out gift cards because they are "aspirational". They give out gift cards because they are more personal than cash.
Instead of giving someone $50, you give them $50 in an REI giftcard because you know they like to go fishing or something. This has nothing to do with aspiration.
And again, I definitely do not think it will take thousands to get people out of their seats. I'm sure that will occur a handful of times per year, but the majority of the time, this is settled around $400 (in my experience).
And on your last part, I like how you say it won't take more than a few minutes, because you are assuming that there are going to be 4 people on the flight, that are willing to reschedule their flight by receiving an iPhone. I said it would take quite some time because you are not going to find 4 people willing to do so right away (I'm sure this could potentially happen once or twice).
Instead, based on what you are proposing, you would then have to switch to some other prize. And then when not enough people take that, to another prize, and then maybe a gift card to a store, then maybe a gift card to another store, and then maybe you need to increase the value of the gift card to the first store, and on and on.
I think that what you've said here makes a lot of sense. I think one of the reasons that the current system works pretty well is the predictability. Everyone knows what is being offered, and likely what the next offer is. If they offer a $400 voucher, I can decide if I want that, knowing that the next offer is likely to be a $600 or $800 voucher. There is not a lot of delay caused by people thinking, "Ooh, I kind of like that Bloomingdale's gift card, but I wonder what's coming next." Everyone knows what is coming next, so they can decide.
I can't speak with any particular expertise about exactly how many people it would take to administer something like this, but I am absolutely confident that it is significantly greater than zero. There would absolutely be cost associated over and above the cost of the items to be distributed.
The other factor that I think has to be considered when discussing the cost/value of the vouchers is airlines' costs of acquiring/keeping customers. When you give a voucher, you get one of two things. Either the person doesn't use the voucher (unlikely, but in which case the voucher cost the airline nothing) or the person flies on your airline again. And if they're flying on your airline, they are not flying on your competitor's airlines. In cases where the voucher doesn't cover the cost of the next flight, you have incremental revenue of whatever they purchase. In cases where the voucher does cover the cost of the flight, it "costs" the airline more, but they have retained the customer. Airlines go to great lengths to provide benefits to their customers -- free flights, upgrades, etc. They spend huge amounts of money trying to build brand loyalty. By giving a voucher, they encourage loyalty.
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http://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/a-family-was-kicked-off-a-delta-flight-and-threatened-with-jail-because-they-wanted-to-kick-a-baby-in-a-car-seat-off-an-overbooked-flight/
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http://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/a-family-was-kicked-off-a-delta-flight-and-threatened-with-jail-because-they-wanted-to-kick-a-baby-in-a-car-seat-off-an-overbooked-flight/
This guy was clearly in the wrong. He did not have a ticket in his kid's name, and he thought he would get by with a workaround. Every person sitting in a seat has to have a ticket with his/her name on it. That's for security reasons.
I had a SW flight held up once because it was completely sold out, and a woman put her baby (who was supposed to be a lap-sitter) in a seat, causing another passenger to be without one. She was asked if she had purchased a ticket for the baby, and even though she knew that the flight was full, she lied and said she had. Instead of saying, "Okay, I'm busted", and putting the kid back into her lap, she forced the airline to go back to the computer at the gate and prove that there was no ticket in her baby's name. People are a$$holes.
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This guy was clearly in the wrong. He did not have a ticket in his kid's name, and he thought he would get by with a workaround. Every person sitting in a seat has to have a ticket with his/her name on it. That's for security reasons.
I had a SW flight held up once because it was completely sold out, and a woman put her baby (who was supposed to be a lap-sitter) in a seat, causing another passenger to be without one. She was asked if she had purchased a ticket for the baby, and even though she knew that the flight was full, she lied and said she had. Instead of saying, "Okay, I'm busted", and putting the kid back into her lap, she forced the airline to go back to the computer at the gate and prove that there was no ticket in her baby's name. People are a$$holes.
He was wrong about the baby being able to use the seat they paid for, sucks but they were wrong. Should have called ahead and I assume Delta would have let him switch the name on the ticket.
However, the article does say that the dad agreed to carry the baby and Delta kicked his family off after the fact. I wasn't there so I don't know how disruptive the family was, but if the issue had been solved, I think its bad customer service to kick the family off.
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He was wrong about the baby being able to use the seat they paid for, sucks but they were wrong. Should have called ahead and I assume Delta would have let him switch the name on the ticket.
However, the article does say that the dad agreed to carry the baby and Delta kicked his family off after the fact. I wasn't there so I don't know how disruptive the family was, but if the issue had been solved, I think its bad customer service to kick the family off.
From what I saw on TV (and it was a very short clip), Dad was being a dick about the whole thing.
One thing I worried about after the original Dr Dao incident that it would embolden people to disregard instructions they were given by flight personnel. And a planeload of people who won't obey the flight crew can be a very dangerous situation.
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From what I saw on TV (and it was a very short clip), Dad was being a dick about the whole thing.
One thing I worried about after the original Dr Dao incident that it would embolden people to disregard instructions they were given by flight personnel. And a planeload of people who won't obey the flight crew can be a very dangerous situation.
On top of that airline employees, and United in particular, are reporting more verbal abuse by customers than ever before. Too many people think the Dao incident means airline employees should not be treated with respect.
For those that say this incident will be forgotten that is true and not true. True that over time customers will forget about the Dao incident and go back to using United like they always have. Not True in that they are making it worse for airline employees and that is causing some real labor problems for these companies.
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This guy was clearly in the wrong. He did not have a ticket in his kid's name, and he thought he would get by with a workaround. Every person sitting in a seat has to have a ticket with his/her name on it. That's for security reasons.
I had a SW flight held up once because it was completely sold out, and a woman put her baby (who was supposed to be a lap-sitter) in a seat, causing another passenger to be without one. She was asked if she had purchased a ticket for the baby, and even though she knew that the flight was full, she lied and said she had. Instead of saying, "Okay, I'm busted", and putting the kid back into her lap, she forced the airline to go back to the computer at the gate and prove that there was no ticket in her baby's name. People are a$$holes.
1. To be fair, the guy never argued against that. He argued against the child being able to be in the car seat and be in the airline seat by itself.
2. I agree that he was ultimately breaking the FAA rules. His 2 year old needed to have a ticket with it's name to be able to sit in that seat.
3. Your personal instance sounds completely different, albeit somewhat related, to the situation at hand.
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From what I saw on TV (and it was a very short clip), Dad was being a dick about the whole thing.
One thing I worried about after the original Dr Dao incident that it would embolden people to disregard instructions they were given by flight personnel. And a planeload of people who won't obey the flight crew can be a very dangerous situation.
You should watch the whole video in the link provided. You can even watch it at 1.5x and understand it all
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From what I saw on TV (and it was a very short clip), Dad was being a dick about the whole thing.
One thing I worried about after the original Dr Dao incident that it would embolden people to disregard instructions they were given by flight personnel. And a planeload of people who won't obey the flight crew can be a very dangerous situation.
Well, I mean, it didn't help that the flight crew threatened to have the kids thrown into foster care and blatantly lied about federal regulations.
Seems like any parent would justifiably be a dick to someone under those circumstances.
Also dangerous: treating people like livestock.
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From what I saw on TV (and it was a very short clip), Dad was being a dick about the whole thing.
One thing I worried about after the original Dr Dao incident that it would embolden people to disregard instructions they were given by flight personnel. And a planeload of people who won't obey the flight crew can be a very dangerous situation.
Customers get to be dicks. Unfortunately, too many take advantage of that. I don't think being a dick should get you kicked off an airplane, threatened with jail time/having kids removed, and cost you 2000. If the situation was resolved and there was no threat of violence or further disruption, I think the right move was to let them stay.
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One thing I worried about after the original Dr Dao incident that it would embolden people to disregard instructions they were given by flight personnel. And a planeload of people who won't obey the flight crew can be a very dangerous situation.
This reminds me of one thing that Mike Rowe brought up in regards to Oscar Munoz's bumbling of his response that made a lot of sense to me.
“I watched a tape of United’s CEO, Oscar Munoz, as he attempted to walk back some earlier comments. He told ABC news that the passenger in question — David Dao — ‘did nothing wrong,’ ” Mr. Rowe said.
“Now, I’m no longer disturbed, Donna. I’m merely terrified,” Mr. Rowe explained on a Facebook post to Donna Johnson. “Oscar certainly didn’t blame the victim. But in the process of finding him blameless, he suggested that millions of passengers are under no obligation to follow a direct command from United employees.
“The facts are clear: If you want to travel by air, you must agree to do what you’re told,” Mr. Rowe said. “If you don’t, you subject yourself to fine, arrest, constraint, forcible removal, and/or a permanent ban from the friendly skies. It’s all there in the fine print.”
“Personally, I support this policy. I support it because I don’t want to fly across the country in a steel tube filled with people who get to decide which rules they will follow and which they will ignore,” the television host continued.
“I’ve been on too many flights with too many angry people to worry about the specific circumstances of their outrage, or the details of why they took it upon themselves to ignore a direct command. A plane is not a democracy, and the main cabin is no place to organize a sit-in. The main cabin is a place to follow orders,” he concluded.”
Now if you read the whole quote Rowe gives, he calls out for all the wrong things United did, as well as other ways that Oscar bumbled the issue from a PR nightmare, but I do agree with him here about Oscar saying that Dao did nothing wrong.
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This reminds me of one thing that Mike Rowe brought up...
Mike Rowe is fantastic. If I was going to make a list of people in the public eye that I'd like to have a beer with, I'd be hard pressed to think of anyone that I'd put ahead of Rowe.
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Mike Rowe is fantastic. If I was going to make a list of people in the public eye that I'd like to have a beer with, I'd be hard pressed to think of anyone that I'd put ahead of Rowe.
First of all, he's a proud Eagle Scout which always punches someone up a few notches in my book. Second of all, the say common sense isn't...that's probably because Mike Rowe is hording all of it. I'd love to spend hours hanging out with that dude.
He is the only person, and I mean ONLY person, I would vote for political office with no questions asked on his plank, that dude is pragmatic as hell and that is all I need.
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As to the newest Delta incident, it is troublesome for multiple reasons as it demonstrates:
-Passengers are less inclined to accept flight crew directions
-Flight crew are not following good customer service practices
-We've lost the ability to adjudicate a central solution because we retreat to our extremes.
One thought on the Delta issue related to inmates running the asylum. I'm very concerned that we are now rewarding confrontational behavior from passengers. I'm not saying the family didn't deserve to be compensated (I think they did) but even if they were totally in the wrong, the flight crew treated them poorly and as a result the family is being compensated. Challenging behavior is now being rewarded so you'll see it more and more. The airlines better get their crews equipped to handle it and fast.
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As to the newest Delta incident, it is troublesome for multiple reasons as it demonstrates:
-Passengers are less inclined to accept flight crew directions
-Flight crew are not following good customer service practices
-We've lost the ability to adjudicate a central solution because we retreat to our extremes.
One thought on the Delta issue related to inmates running the asylum. I'm very concerned that we are now rewarding confrontational behavior from passengers. I'm not saying the family didn't deserve to be compensated (I think they did) but even if they were totally in the wrong, the flight crew treated them poorly and as a result the family is being compensated. Challenging behavior is now being rewarded so you'll see it more and more. The airlines better get their crews equipped to handle it and fast.
Yup ...
Like I noted above, the long-term legacy of the United incident is people now feel they have a right to be belligerent and treat airline employees like crap. And airline employees are tired of taking the crap.
It is a bad cocktail that I fear is only getting worse.
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"The facts are clear: If you want to travel by air, you must agree to do what you’re told,” Mr. Rowe said. “If you don’t, you subject yourself to fine, arrest, constraint, forcible removal, and/or a permanent ban from the friendly skies. It’s all there in the fine print.”
i agree 110% with this statement-based on this statement and how these incidents all played out, would anyone surmise if any airline would allow them to fly with them? can an airline refuse to allow them to book a flight(s)?
or do they have to worry about "discrimination" of any sort? this can be a lawyers dream come true. guess what? hello increased air fare for all
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Oh good. I'm really excited to buy airline tickets just like concert tickets... you know, like when some individual or company uses a bot or early access to buy a crap-ton of tickets and then jacks up the price. Perfect.
Ya im not to keen on the idea of selling airline tickets like concert tickets. That is a whole other level of absolute scum I wish would go away.
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How many of you people have actually spent any time with the airline industry? Not many based on these answers.
Rule 1 in the Industry: NEVER FORK OUT CASH FOR ANYTHING!!!!
Rule 2 in the Industry: YOU GET FIRED IMMEDIATELY FOR BREAKING RULE 1!
Denied boarding compensation isn't cash. It's the right to buy a United ticket on a future flight. If they give you discounts on future airfare, OK, maybe that makes sense. But, a $1,000 credit against two trips to Europe or the Far East, well, isn't a huge number but may help at the margin. So if you want two round-trips to Wichita via Houston and Denver, yeup. But to London, Paris or the Far East, forget it!
Your creativity is cash. The iPhone is cash out the door. So are the Cubs tickets. And, to Chick's point, they will require a bureaucracy because the United States Department of the Treasury, Internal Revenue Service, has a phrase for Iphones, Cubs Tickets and, yes, cash...
Taxable Income.
And it has to be reported. Which means a 1099 for everyone who gets creative compensation.
Actually you can give cash. And in the case of involuntary removal. It has to be cash. I've gotten cash 3 times for being voluntary. When they start to reach for a voucher I say cash only and when they say can't do that I walk away and they always call me back.
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Ya im not to keen on the idea of selling airline tickets like concert tickets. That is a whole other level of absolute scum I wish would go away.
Amazing how so many people do not understand how supply and demand work.
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Amazing how so many people do not understand how supply and demand work.
that's how tickets to sporting events have been sold. i don't know how many organizations have adopted this method, but the price of the seats are dependent upon availability. didn't the bucks employ something like this? you paid a certain price-usually really cheap, but they couldn't guarantee where your seat was until so many hours before tip-off-they would notify via text message or email
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that's how tickets to sporting events have been sold. i don't know how many organizations have adopted this method, but the price of the seats are dependent upon availability. didn't the bucks employ something like this? you paid a certain price-usually really cheap, but they couldn't guarantee where your seat was until so many hours before tip-off-they would notify via text message or email
A lot of teams do dynamic pricing. Based more on days of week and who the other team is. The Brewers and cubs do it i believe.
Airlines also do this already though. The whole concert ticket thing was about scalpers though. Not supply and demand.
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A lot of teams do dynamic pricing. Based more on days of week and who the other team is. The Brewers and cubs do it i believe.
Airlines also do this already though. The whole concert ticket thing was about scalpers though. Not supply and demand.
I know some people in the Cubs' organization and they are all ready to go to a pure auction market for tickets. That means no prices, everything is auctioned (including full and partial season tickets). So, yes, if you are the only bidder, you can get them for $5 (the smallest price) but it is doubtful you are the only one. And even of you are, $5 is better than an empty seat at zero.
Their studies show that everyone is a winner on this ... teams collect more money (average prices go up) and the standard deviation widens. So, price insensitive buyers can pay up for good seats and those on a budget can get cheap upper deck seats.
In fact, some studies argue that most products should be sold this way, like iPhones (oh no, he's back on iPhones again!). A pure auction is the best way to maximize value. That is why most financial market securities sales are auctions.
The reason it has not happened is MLB is afraid to approve it because they fear the public, being ignorant of supply and demand, will not understand it and it will be a PR nightmare for them.
Airlines should do the same. No price for a ticket ... let the bidding begin. It is far and away the most efficient way to sell something and everyone wins. It eliminates the need to overbook (this goes away) and allows the passenger to be more flexible with their travel and budget.
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http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/eric.budish/research/Ticket-Auctions.pdf
Primary-Market Auctions for Event Tickets: Eliminating the Rents of “Bob the Broker”∗
January 26, 2014
Economists have long been puzzled by event-ticket underpricing: underpricing reduces revenue for the performer, and encourages socially wasteful rent-seeking by ticket brokers. What about using an auction to set price correctly? This paper studies the recent introduction of auctions into the event-ticket market by Ticketmaster. By combining primary-market data from Ticketmaster with secondary-market resale value data from eBay, we show that Ticketmaster’s auctions “work”: the auctions substantially improve price discovery, roughly double performer revenues, and, on average, nearly eliminate the arbitrage profits associated with underpriced tickets. The data thus suggest that auctions can eliminate the speculator rent-seeking that has been associated with this market since the 19th century, and that seems to have exploded in volume in the 21st century
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well, for all the bad stories that have been coming out on the airlines, here's a good one-
http://en.newsner.com/now-we-pay-tribute-to-the-airline-that-did-everything-in-its-power-to-help-a-mother-in-need/about/news,family
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that's how tickets to sporting events have been sold. i don't know how many organizations have adopted this method, but the price of the seats are dependent upon availability. didn't the bucks employ something like this? you paid a certain price-usually really cheap, but they couldn't guarantee where your seat was until so many hours before tip-off-they would notify via text message or email
Marquette actually did that for #mubb during the '15-'16 season. Pardon me for forgetting the details but in early December of that year for about a week they had the following offer: 'Download our app for maybe $69 and come to this long list of upcoming games. Activate as you enter the BC and we'll assign you a seat for that day.' Pretty cool. I think they limited it to a few hundred. I don't think it made a return this past year.
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Auction sounds like a nice idea but how would they make it feasible. As in I want to buy a ticket 2 months ahead. When does this auction end? Or it's a nice day out and i decide to go to a game randomly. Are all the auctions over?
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now spirit airlines joins the latest airline mishap/PR screw-up after they had to cancel some flights. the passengers started a mini-riot/fight when all hell broke lose at fort lauderdale airport. i thought these only happened when the people realized that they are flying with spirit at boarding time
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Auction sounds like a nice idea but how would they make it feasible. As in I want to buy a ticket 2 months ahead. When does this auction end? Or it's a nice day out and i decide to go to a game randomly. Are all the auctions over?
They are already experimenting with this
Here’s How to Get a Business-Class Airline Seat Without the High Cost
http://fortune.com/2016/01/07/airline-upgrade-auctions/
Remember the key to an auction is making tickets transferrable. Right now you cannot take a ticket and give it to someone else. You are not allowed to do this now unless you pay a huge change fee. Without the ability to transfer tickets, an auction will not work as you cannot sell it on a secondary market (an auction) now.
(and to answer a previous question, the TSA will not allow bots to buy up tickets and create a scarcity via a corner. Only real humans not on the no-fly list can buy tickets.)
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Only real humans not on the no-fly list can buy tickets.)
I'm assuming (i.e., hoping) that was a typo.
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I'm assuming (i.e., hoping) that was a typo.
Yes, that was a typo, I fixed it.
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From what I saw on TV (and it was a very short clip), Dad was being a dick about the whole thing.
C'mon Chick. You are giving penises a bad name.