United Airlines

[StillAWarrior]

On the first part, if they had gotten to the $10k limit and they ended up needing to boot someone off the flight, then I don't see how it wouldn't ultimately be considered "a matter of safety or security" and security would be called.  How else do you remove someone from a flight that refuses to leave the plane?  And if were to say no, and then you go back and choose another random person, then why wouldn't that person just say no as well?  Now that said, I doubt this scenario would present itself, because someone at some point will jump at the money.

And to the second point, I bet the amount of times United ends up shelling out $10k for displacing a passenger will be 0.  I'm sure they will start at a lower number and continue increasing it.  At some point someone will jump at the cash well before it hits $10k.  (I'd be surprised if it ever goes above $5k.)

I agree with everything you said. Trust me, I'd jump out of line for far less than $10k. My wife and daughter got $1k each last year on one trip. It was awesome.

[GooooMarquette]

And to the second point, I bet the amount of times United ends up shelling out $10k for displacing a passenger will be 0.  I'm sure they will start at a lower number and continue increasing it.  At some point someone will jump at the cash well before it hits $10k.  (I'd be surprised if it ever goes above $5k.)

This. 

They will easily get takers at those prices.  I've never taken a voluntary bump for a couple hundred, but if I was ever offered several THOUSAND, I'd do it anytime except a critical business trip.

[WarriorInNYC]

This. 

They will easily get takers at those prices.  I've never taken a voluntary bump for a couple hundred, but if I was ever offered several THOUSAND, I'd do it anytime except a critical business trip.

Exactly.  Doing this would have easily avoided the whole situation.  That said, its easy to say that now, hindsight is 20/20.  I don't believe any of the other airlines had procedures in place to allow their gate agents to continue to increase the compensation much further than $1k.

[dgies9156]

Got me an email from Oscar (as I'm sure many of the rest of you did too -- hell, dgies probably got a call).  Probably part of the settlement...

Nope. Ms. Dgies and I got same letter you did.

And I was hoping for lunch with Oscar -- as long as it was not United Airlines' airline food!

[Tugg Speedman]

The Apple thread has somehow convinced me that you're not the best person to offer investing advice.

It is like my version of Godwin ...

Heisy is right and I'm totally wrong and I'm out of options.  So deflect by bringing up the Apple call.

[Tugg Speedman]

Chicago O'Hare security chief fired weeks after United flub

https://apnews.com/20ac42f5b7f944d0b72fa5f9e08a9bc0?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=APCentralRegion

The head of security at Chicago's airports has been fired, just weeks after a passenger was dragged from a United Airlines plane by security officers at O'Hare International Airport.

The Department of Aviation said in a statement Thursday that Jeffrey Redding "has been terminated from his duties" at O'Hare and Midway airports. No reason was given.

Redding wasn't immediately available for comment late Thursday.

Redding was overseeing the investigation into the forcible removal of 69-year-old physician David Dao from the United plane by three of his officers April 9. Dao has agreed an undisclosed settlement with the airline. Dao's lawyer said Thursday that the settlement averts any lawsuit against Chicago officials.

Separately, the Chicago Tribune recently reported that Redding was fired from his previous job for sexual harassment in 2015.

[Pakuni]

It is like my version of Godwin ...

Heisy is right and I'm totally wrong and I'm out of options.  So deflect by bringing up the Apple call.

So, when you start condescendingly portraying yourself as some sort of investment guru, it's totally unfair and out of bounds to cite some of the truly terrible investment insight you've offered here?
Got it. Past performance shouldn't matter when evaluating one's investment expertise.

[Tugg Speedman]

I agree with everything you said. Trust me, I'd jump out of line for far less than $10k. My wife and daughter got $1k each last year on one trip. It was awesome.

I think if the airlines got creative, they could get people to give up their seats for far less.

Imagine if a United supervisor walked on the plane took to the loud speaker and said they needed four seats and the first four that raised their handed got

"this new unlocked jet black IPhone 7" (about $600) or,

"your choice of two seats in the United box at Wrigley, three rows behind the cubs dugout, we currently have over 40 dates you can pick from." Or,

Or maybe a year or two if free gogo online, or a red carpet membership, 100,000 miles in your account and on and on.  A combination of the above.

Point is if they turned into a version of a game show, making it a contest to win prizes, instead of a stress point leading to dragging a passenger off the plane, it could be fun and a point of INCREASED customer satisfaction.

The problem is United is so uncreative and bureaucratic that not only is no one capable of thinking this way at the company, they would not even bring it up if they did.

[4everwarriors]

Heer's da cheapest answer. Don't over sell the flight. Yeah, der will bee a couple of unfourceen empties, butt dat should cost da airlines chump change, hey?

[WarriorInNYC]

I think if the airlines got creative, they could get people to give up their seats for far less.

Imagine if a United supervisor walked on the plane took to the loud speaker and said they needed four seats and the first four that raised their handed got

"this new unlocked jet black IPhone 7" (about $600) or,

"your choice of two seats in the United box at Wrigley, three rows behind the cubs dugout, we currently have over 40 dates you can pick from." Or,

Or maybe a year or two if free gogo online, or a red carpet membership, 100,000 miles in your account and on and on.  A combination of the above.

Point is if they turned into a version of a game show, making it a contest to win prizes, instead of a stress point leading to dragging a passenger off the plane, it could be fun and a point of INCREASED customer satisfaction.

The problem is United is so uncreative and bureaucratic that not only is no one capable of thinking this way at the company, they would not even bring it up if they did.

I really don't see any airline taking the above "creative" approach.  All of those things translate into much different values for many different people.  Just offer cash and increase the value as people don't accept it until someone does.

The above also means the airline would have to keep a bunch of the above in stock that would also require additional inventory controls around them that a company like United is not used to doing. 

I know there are several examples you used, but lets take the Cubs seats example.  United in essence would have to keep tickets for games on hand in case they run into an overbooked situation and needed volunteers.  What if the game they have tickets for passes before this scenario is encountered?  If they don't keep them on hand, are they going to have to go and outbid whoever holds such tickets on stubhub or whatever so they can guarantee them?  What if someone is willing to go, but the date for the tickets there is a conflict?  I would also assume that half of the flight (if flying out of ORD are people that are not from Chicago).

By doing the above exercise, you are further limiting your choice of volunteers.  Other examples, I would rather take $600 over a new iPhone, I already have an iPhone.  Memberships, you are again limiting those that already have them, as well as those that wouldn't be able to take advantage of them.

I don't see how the above makes sense at all.

[WarriorInNYC]

Chicago O'Hare security chief fired weeks after United flub

https://apnews.com/20ac42f5b7f944d0b72fa5f9e08a9bc0?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=APCentralRegion

The head of security at Chicago's airports has been fired, just weeks after a passenger was dragged from a United Airlines plane by security officers at O'Hare International Airport.

The Department of Aviation said in a statement Thursday that Jeffrey Redding "has been terminated from his duties" at O'Hare and Midway airports. No reason was given.

Redding wasn't immediately available for comment late Thursday.

Redding was overseeing the investigation into the forcible removal of 69-year-old physician David Dao from the United plane by three of his officers April 9. Dao has agreed an undisclosed settlement with the airline. Dao's lawyer said Thursday that the settlement averts any lawsuit against Chicago officials.

Separately, the Chicago Tribune recently reported that Redding was fired from his previous job for sexual harassment in 2015.

So I haven't paid too much attention to what the head of security did or did not do, and it sounds like his job history wasn't all that great, but why exactly was he fired?

And to piggyback on this, it seems kind of hard to tell on the videos, but was there some better way to extract Dao from the plane? 

For this argument, let's just go ahead and use as an assumption that he absolutely needed to be removed.  I would imagine trying to remove someone from the tight confines of an airplane seat, with the armrests down, someone resisting and holding on to them, would be quite hard to do.  In fact, I would be surprised if the passenger didn't come away hurt in some form or fashion.

[warriorchick]

I really don't see any airline taking the above "creative" approach.  All of those things translate into much different values for many different people.  Just offer cash and increase the value as people don't accept it until someone does.

The above also means the airline would have to keep a bunch of the above in stock that would also require additional inventory controls around them that a company like United is not used to doing. 

I know there are several examples you used, but lets take the Cubs seats example.  United in essence would have to keep tickets for games on hand in case they run into an overbooked situation and needed volunteers.  What if the game they have tickets for passes before this scenario is encountered?  If they don't keep them on hand, are they going to have to go and outbid whoever holds such tickets on stubhub or whatever so they can guarantee them?  What if someone is willing to go, but the date for the tickets there is a conflict?  I would also assume that half of the flight (if flying out of ORD are people that are not from Chicago).

By doing the above exercise, you are further limiting your choice of volunteers.  Other examples, I would rather take $600 over a new iPhone, I already have an iPhone.  Memberships, you are again limiting those that already have them, as well as those that wouldn't be able to take advantage of them.

I don't see how the above makes sense at all.

Not to mention United would have to hire dozens, if not hundreds, of employees just to administer this type of program. You need people to decide what the prizes are going to be, develop administer, and train employees on the policy, negotiate for and purchase the prizes, manage the logistics, keep the books and records,etc.

Much cheaper to hand out checks, even if the dollar amount of the checks is higher than the "cost" of the prizes.

[Tugg Speedman]

Not to mention United would have to hire dozens, if not hundreds, of employees just to administer this type of program. You need people to decide what the prizes are going to be, develop administer, and train employees on the policy, negotiate for and purchase the prizes, manage the logistics, keep the books and records,etc.

Much cheaper to hand out checks, even if the dollar amount of the checks is higher than the "cost" of the prizes.

Hundreds?  Are you serious?

Try ... zero extra employees.  Try zero extra inventory.  You don't need the prizes at the airport.  You don't even need an inventory. (and remember that cash can always be a prize). 

First, someone is administering the program they have now.  The gate agent is not reaching into his/her back pocket and peeling Benjamins off a wad of cash they pulled out.  They can administer this program.  (besides, soon there will be no administrative people left in companies, only more directives for the programmers to create on their system.  If you know administrators, they are destined for unemployment, unless they can code.) 

So the programmers will set up the systems and rules and a bit of training on how to run the program at the gate (which they regularly get anyway) and they are ready to go.  What I just described is what they have, with only one prize option, cash.  All they have to do is set up more prizes, and the rules to acquire them.

So, if someone wants to an iphone for their seat, you punch into the computer that person name and it is shipped directly from Apple overnight to the address fo their choice.  That way United is out of the picture.  If the phone is broken, or they want apple care, they can deal directly with Apple, not United.

The cubs no longer have paper tickets, punch into the computer their name and mobile number and the tickets are transferred immediately.

Of course, these are not the only prize ideas.  They potential list of items can go on and on and on.

The point is to offer a positive customer experience and make it cost less money than the soulless "take the cash or get beat up" approach they now have.


----------------

What concerns me about the criticism above is you seem to take the airline's approach.  Customers are stupid, demanding and need to be tolerated.  So why should we go out of our way to make the process fun, interesting and rewarding?  Nah, that's too hard, get the thugs in here to beat the crap out them.  That way the rest of the cattle, I mean customers, we learn from this and shut out and behave.

Your criticism assumes they always have an adversarial position with their customers.  Instead, every situation should be looked on as an opportunity to make the customer happy they are doing service with you, including overbooking an airline.  Instead United is so dysfunctional that they beat up a paying customer rather than seeking a solution that makes everyone happy.

 

[B. McBannerson]

Not to mention United would have to hire dozens, if not hundreds, of employees just to administer this type of program. You need people to decide what the prizes are going to be, develop administer, and train employees on the policy, negotiate for and purchase the prizes, manage the logistics, keep the books and records,etc.

Much cheaper to hand out checks, even if the dollar amount of the checks is higher than the "cost" of the prizes.

Yes!!

And the airline industry is complex enough, adding more complexity like this would be not a wise idea.  Smart businesses keep it simple and do simple really well.

[B. McBannerson]

Hundreds?  Are you serious?

Try ... zero extra employees.  Try zero extra inventory.  You don't need the prizes at the airport.  You don't even need an inventory. (and remember that cash can always be a prize). 

How can you make this claim?  All the API work from an IT perspective alone would be incremental.  Those Cubs tickets, you have to tie into a system with the Cubs or MLB to see what tix are available.  That iPhone idea, is that going to work with the customer's carrier plan? Are you unduly putting extra surcharges on the bill because of how some carriers handle smart phones? 

Cash is king.  The other solutions are semi-attractive, but with cash customer can choose what they want to do, not be forced into picking what's behind door 1, 2, or 3 in a Let's make a deal game.

[Tugg Speedman]

Heer's da cheapest answer. Don't over sell the flight. Yeah, der will bee a couple of unfourceen empties, butt dat should cost da airlines chump change, hey?

First, the flight was not overbooked.  So if those rules did not exist, this problem would still arise.

The reason overbooking exists is they do not allow transferring of tickets.  They charge you a hefty change fee.   You cannot simply hand your ticket to another family member/friend/co-worker to take your seat without paying a change fee.  This is where all the problems begin.

What they need to do is treat airline tickets like concert tickets, not refundable and fully transferrable.  You buy the seat, it is sold, done as far as the airline is concerned (same with the concert seat))  If you don't use it, that is your problem. 

Now the reason you don't use it is your plans change, so set up a ticket exchange (Expedia and Orbitz will have this ready in five minutes) where you can exchange your tickets for another seat on a different flight or even just sell it outright.

Last minute flyers can go on a ticket exchange and pay "scalper prices" to get on the flight of their choice.  Low budget flyers can buy last minute seats at cut-rate prices (remember airline seats are like fresh vegetables, they have to be used or they are worthless, so you steeply discount the seat as the time of departure approaches because it is worth zero when the flight leaves.)

Capitalism works every time it is tried.  As soon as the airlines try this approach, they better everyone will be.

[Tugg Speedman]

How can you make this claim?  All the API work from an IT perspective alone would be incremental.  Those Cubs tickets, you have to tie into a system with the Cubs or MLB to see what tix are available.  That iPhone idea, is that going to work with the customer's carrier plan? Are you unduly putting extra surcharges on the bill because of how some carriers handle smartphones? 

Cash is king.  The other solutions are semi-attractive, but with a cash, customer can choose what they want to do, not be forced into picking what's behind door 1, 2, or 3 in a Let's make a deal game.

Like I said, they are two of many many ideas.  The reason you do this is you are offering aspirational items that some value more than cash.  So a $600 iPhone is valued more than $1000 cash by some.  If they take it, the airline saves $400!.  Ditto Cubs tickets over a larger value of cash.

The idea is to save the airline money by offering the customer something they assign a value to that is less than the cash.  (gift cards are the same, people think a $200 Bloomingdale gift card is more "valuable" that $200 cash.  That is why gift cards are so popular).

To your specific questions ...

I said on "unlocked" iPhone.  It will work on every/any carrier.

The Cubs/MLB already have the system in place to transfer tickets.  If you have a paperless ticket/account, you can transfer it with a push of a button (same as you can with you MU ticket account).


This stuff is easy to do.  All that prevents it is the mindset/approach.

[WarriorInNYC]

Like I said, they are two of many many ideas.  The reason you do this is you are offering aspirational items that some value more than cash.  So a $600 iPhone is valued more than $1000 cash by some.  If they take it, the airline saves $400!.  Ditto Cubs tickets over a larger value of cash.

The idea is to save the airline money by offering the customer something they assign a value to that is less than the cash.  (gift cards are the same, people think a $200 Bloomingdale gift card is more "valuable" that $200 cash.  That is why gift cards are so popular).

To your specific questions ...

I said on "unlocked" iPhone.  It will work on every/any carrier.

The Cubs/MLB already have the system in place to transfer tickets.  If you have a paperless ticket/account, you can transfer it with a push of a button (same as you can with you MU ticket account).


This stuff is easy to do.  All that prevents it is the mindset/approach.

Do you really think some people value a $200 Bloomingdale gift card over $200 cash????

Honestly, this whole thing you're crafting here is just too complex and would dramatically slow down the departure of the aircraft as the gate agent would have to run through so many different options.

Cash has a set value that can be used for anything, its much quicker to start at a certain point and then go up until someone takes it.  Otherwise you start with $200 Bloomingdales gift card, Cubs tickets for 5/22, iPhone, $400 Bloomingdales gift card, etc., etc.

Additionally, who the hell is going to view this as a "game show" and get excited about this?  They are being inconvenienced and have to take a different flight.  I don't think anyone will be excited that they got some Cubs tickets out of it.

[jsglow]

Jigawatts, respectfully your idea is among the most ill-conceived things I've read recently.  There's a reason that mankind invented currency about the same time as they invented the wheel.  Seriously, didn't you ever take an economics or banking course in your life? 

Or perhaps you work at a job where they give you coal one week, meat the next, and timber to build a shelter the third.  The opportunity cost of matching up exact needs/desires for a transaction is beyond prohibitive.  Please quit while you're behind.

[Tugg Speedman]

Do you really think some people value a $200 Bloomingdale gift card over $200 cash????

Honestly, this whole thing you're crafting here is just too complex and would dramatically slow down the departure of the aircraft as the gate agent would have to run through so many different options.

Cash has a set value that can be used for anything, its much quicker to start at a certain point and then go up until someone takes it.  Otherwise you start with $200 Bloomingdales gift card, Cubs tickets for 5/22, iPhone, $400 Bloomingdales gift card, etc., etc.

Additionally, who the hell is going to view this as a "game show" and get excited about this?  They are being inconvenienced and have to take a different flight.  I don't think anyone will be excited that they got some Cubs tickets out of it.

Why do gift cards exist in the first place?  Or, more to the point, why aren't Visa/Mastercard "cash" gift cards far and away the most popular?  After all, they are cash, good anywhere.

The answer is the higher-end stores are aspirational.  Some would like to shop there, or get a new iPhone, or go to the cubs game in nice seats but cannot get themselves to do it because of their budget.  But when offered the chance to "just say yes" at it's yours, for the mild inconvenience of flying the next day, many would jump at this.  This is why it is called "aspirational" and many assign it a higher value than the same amount of cash. 

Earlier we had these two post ...

And to the second point, I bet the amount of times United ends up shelling out $10k for displacing a passenger will be 0.  I'm sure they will start at a lower number and continue increasing it.  At some point someone will jump at the cash well before it hits $10k.  (I'd be surprised if it ever goes above $5k.)

I agree with everything you said. Trust me, I'd jump out of line for far less than $10k. My wife and daughter got $1k each last year on one trip. It was awesome.

If you guys honestly think it is going into the thousands to get people out of their seats, and I can do it for one $600 iPhone (and free ride home and back to the airport, or a night in the lovely O'Hare Hilton, plus a rebooking), United will pay me so much for saving them millions that I will be flying private the rest of my life.


And it will not take more than a few minutes.  120 people on the plane, need four seats.  Who wants an iPhone to take the flight tomorrow?  Four hands go up. Done, get your stuff and get off the plane and we will sort it out after it leaves.  It took me longer to type this than the process will take.

[Tugg Speedman]

Jigawatts, respectfully your idea is among the most ill-conceived things I've read recently.  There's a reason that mankind invented currency about the same time as they invented the wheel.  Seriously, didn't you ever take an economics or banking course in your life? 

Or perhaps you work at a job where they give you coal one week, meat the next, and timber to build a shelter the third.  The opportunity cost of matching up exact needs/desires for a transaction is beyond prohibitive.  Please quit while you're behind.

You seem to think I'm running a game show for to all 120 people to decide what they want.   That is why you wrote:

The opportunity cost of matching up exact needs/desires for a transaction is beyond prohibitive. 

I only need four hands out of 120 to go up.  I'm trying to save the airline $5k a seat (because no one disagreed wth Still and NYC just above). 

You guys all disappoint me, I feel like I'm arguing with a bunch of soulless middle managers that think creativity is a diesase.

[jsglow]

You seem to think I'm running a game show for to all 120 people to decide what they want.   That is why you wrote:

The opportunity cost of matching up exact needs/desires for a transaction is beyond prohibitive. 

I only need four hands out of 120 to go up.  I'm trying to save the airline $5k a seat (because no one disagreed wth Still and NYC just above). 

You guys all disappoint me, I feel like I'm arguing with a bunch of soulless middle managers that think creativity is a diesase.

Creativity is perfect for things like art and dinner choices.

[StillAWarrior]

I think if the airlines got creative, they could get people to give up their seats for far less.

Imagine if a United supervisor walked on the plane took to the loud speaker and said they needed four seats and the first four that raised their handed got

"this new unlocked jet black IPhone 7" (about $600) or,

"your choice of two seats in the United box at Wrigley, three rows behind the cubs dugout, we currently have over 40 dates you can pick from." Or,

Or maybe a year or two if free gogo online, or a red carpet membership, 100,000 miles in your account and on and on.  A combination of the above.

Point is if they turned into a version of a game show, making it a contest to win prizes, instead of a stress point leading to dragging a passenger off the plane, it could be fun and a point of INCREASED customer satisfaction.

The problem is United is so uncreative and bureaucratic that not only is no one capable of thinking this way at the company, they would not even bring it up if they did.

I'm with glow (and pretty much everyone else) on this one.  I think this is honestly a pretty awful idea for a lot of reasons.  You're "solving" a problem that doesn't exit.  I'm going to guess that United gives hundreds if not thousands of vouchers every single day.  I would say that somewhere in the neighborhood of 50% of the flights that I'm on they make an offer, and more often than not there is a taker of the first offer.  It works smoothly and efficiently.  You refer to the "stress point leading to dragging a passenger off the plane."  I'm aware of one such situation in all the years of flying that I've done (and heard about).  I'm really struggling with why the airlines would overhaul an entire system that generally works very well in response to one instance where the system probably would have worked if only the people managing it wouldn't have been idiots.

And you're probably correct, you're a creative business genius, and pretty much literally everyone else is wrong on this one.

[StillAWarrior]

Why do gift cards exist in the first place?  Or, more to the point, why aren't Visa/Mastercard "cash" gift cards far and away the most popular?  After all, they are cash, good anywhere.

The answer is the higher-end stores are aspirational.  Some would like to shop there, or get a new iPhone, or go to the cubs game in nice seats but cannot get themselves to do it because of their budget.  But when offered the chance to "just say yes" at it's yours, for the mild inconvenience of flying the next day, many would jump at this.  This is why it is called "aspirational" and many assign it a higher value than the same amount of cash. 

Earlier we had these two post ...

If you guys honestly think it is going into the thousands to get people out of their seats, and I can do it for one $600 iPhone (and free ride home and back to the airport, or a night in the lovely O'Hare Hilton, plus a rebooking), United will pay me so much for saving them millions that I will be flying private the rest of my life.


And it will not take more than a few minutes.  120 people on the plane, need four seats.  Who wants an iPhone to take the flight tomorrow?  Four hands go up. Done, get your stuff and get off the plane and we will sort it out after it leaves.  It took me longer to type this than the process will take.

And typically what happens is, "who wants a $400 voucher to take the flight tomorrow" and four hands go up.  Maybe it goes to $800.  And that costs United far less than purchasing (and storing, tracking, etc.) a bunch of iPhones, tickets, gift cards, etc.  And because it's a United voucher, you build brand loyalty because the person you just gave a voucher to will be flying your airline next time.  Again, you're "solving" a problem that doesn't exist.

This is such an absurd suggestion that if it was coming from anyone else, I'd think you were trolling.

[Tugg Speedman]

And typically what happens is, "who wants a $400 voucher to take the flight tomorrow" and four hands go up.  Maybe it goes to $800.  And that costs United far less than purchasing (and storing, tracking, etc.) a bunch of iPhones, tickets, gift cards, etc.  And because it's a United voucher, you build brand loyalty because the person you just gave a voucher to will be flying your airline next time.  Again, you're "solving" a problem that doesn't exist.

This is such an absurd suggestion that if it was coming from anyone else, I'd think you were trolling.

So which is it $400 to $800 or several thousand to get people out of their seat?  Becuase you agreed with this ...

And to the second point, I bet the amount of times United ends up shelling out $10k for displacing a passenger will be 0.  I'm sure they will start at a lower number and continue increasing it.  At some point someone will jump at the cash well before it hits $10k.  (I'd be surprised if it ever goes above $5k.)

I agree with everything you said. Trust me, I'd jump out of line for far less than $10k. My wife and daughter got $1k each last year on one trip. It was awesome.

I was proposing a way to prevent the airlines from paying thousands per seat ... maybe my mistake was listening to you in the first place.