This is progress

[Lennys Tap]

And why did those marching orders come out? Back to Buzz recruiting players that couldn't have graduated under any circumstance.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my recollection is one player who didn't have a realistic chance of graduating in the last semester of his eligibility.

Of course, everyone also knew when Henry Ellenson was signed there was zero chance he'd ever graduate but the powers that be and the scolds on Scoop viewed that very differently.

I was grateful to have both Jae and Henry.

[brewcity77]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my recollection is one player who didn't have a realistic chance of graduating in the last semester of his eligibility.

Of course, everyone also knew when Henry Ellenson was signed there was zero chance he'd ever graduate but the powers that be and the scolds on Scoop viewed that very differently.

I was grateful to have both Jae and Henry.

I enjoyed watching both, and Jae more than Henry. But I don't contribute enough to be one of those decision makers. Just saying that Buzz brought those restrictions on himself.

[frozena pizza]

On the point about people wanting the program to be eccentric, I never really agreed with this.  It sounds cool in isolation but we are not in the 70s anymore and the McGuire days are long gone.  Eccentricity comes with volatility, friction, and short relationships.  You can't have a conservative, Catholic, midwestern institution and expect it to always get a long with coaches that want free reign to speak their minds and ruffle feathers.  It's just not going to last in an era where players can tweet whatever pops into their minds and everyone wants to know everything that happens behind closed doors.  I'll take a boring Wojo who conducts himself and the program with class any day.

[Lennys Tap]

I enjoyed watching both, and Jae more than Henry. But I don't contribute enough to be one of those decision makers. Just saying that Buzz brought those restrictions on himself.

So Buzz brought in one player (not players, as you posted) without a reasonable chance to graduate during his eligibility and this = bringing restrictions on himself.

Do you suppose the recruitment of Henry (and his brother, for that matter) will result in "restrictions" on Wojo? Sure hope not.

[GGGG]

Burton would make this team worse? Sorry, I don't understand that one.

Wojo said it Wednesday.  This team is better when it shares the ball and Deonte doesn't move the ball.  He stops it and usually shoots it.  He has more shots per 100 possessions than anyone on this Marquette team, yet as I mentioned earlier, is about as effective a shooter as Haanif Cheatham - you know - the player that everyone says has regressed this year.

Does he have skills that this team lacks?  Yes.  Particularly on the rebounding end.  So while I am not sure we would be worse with Burton, I am not sure how much better we would be.  And unless he changed under Wojo's coaching, he would not really fit into this ball movement offense. 

So I do understand the argument.

[GGGG]

So Buzz brought in one player (not players, as you posted) without a reasonable chance to graduate during his eligibility and this = bringing restrictions on himself.

Players is correct.  Dwight Buycks couldn't have graduated during his eligibility either.  He ended up graduating so I don't think it really matters.

[cheebs09]

Players is correct.  Dwight Buycks couldn't have graduated during his eligibility either.  He ended up graduating so I don't think it really matters.

I don't think Mayo helped Buzz's case either. He didn't cause anything to change from a JUCO perspective, but I doubt he helped the Buzz/Administration relationship.

[jsglow]

What about the fact that Buzz was lauded for the same thing? The play style of the Amigos, Midgets, and the first Sweet 16 teams were dramatically different. So it's a plus for Buzz and a negative for Wojo?

Here's the way I see it. There are people that were against Wojo from there start. Whether it's the Duke background (and I suspect that's 99.9% of it), the lack of experience, or not a flashy name, they simply won't come around.

Those same people aren't fans of his perceived lack of openness. Like K, he's built a wall around the program and is a fairly stale interview. These are the same people who were raised on Al, reborn under KO, and felt they'd found a spiritual successor in Buzz. While they certainly value winning, they want Marquette to do so in an interesting, eccentric way. They hate the idea of Marquette being a bland, disciplined program as much as they hate seeing Marquette lose.

That's why they can't embrace Wojo and why they diminish his accomplishments. By any measurement, Wojo has shown continued improvement and success the past three years. If you aren't excited about players like Howard and Hauser (as well as Henry last year) then honestly what do you want? This is progress, and anyone around the program that doesn't see it is choosing to be willfully blind.

And last point, I'm really sick of the whole "if you'd been around the program and given as much as I have" line of BS. Some of us weren't born that long ago, some of us don't have the means. Commitment isn't measured by a date of birth or a bank account. I'm glad for those that have enjoyed a long time of Marquette success and done well for themselves, but that doesn't make you a better fan than anyone else on here.

Good stuff brew.

[jsglow]

They contributed to it, but it was Buzz that made that roster. Buzz recruited Derrick, Juan, Steve, Mayo, Dawson, Eonte, and the rest of them. Carlino was our best player and the only actual Wojo recruit.

Beyond that, it was on the administration that gave Pilarz and Williams their marching orders. When they left, it was on Robert Wild and Bill Cords, who didn't relax the restrictions Buzz felt were too much to deal with.

And why did those marching orders come out? Back to Buzz recruiting players that couldn't have graduated under any circumstance.

I know you don't care about that stuff, but the powers that be do. It's absolutely something that reflects on the University, and the basketball program is an extension and representation of the University, not the other way around.

At the end of the day, blame Buzz. He recruited those players and his recruiting decisions made the Pilarz/Williams direction necessary in the first place. Yes, we bottomed out under Wojo, but that would've happened whether the coach was Wojo, Buzz, or Al McGuire.

You are on fire.  That's 100% accurate.

[Loose Cannon]

What about the fact that Buzz was lauded for the same thing? The play style of the Amigos, Midgets, and the first Sweet 16 teams were dramatically different. So it's a plus for Buzz and a negative for Wojo?

Here's the way I see it. There are people that were against Wojo from there start. Whether it's the Duke background (and I suspect that's 99.9% of it), the lack of experience, or not a flashy name, they simply won't come around.

Those same people aren't fans of his perceived lack of openness. Like K, he's built a wall around the program and is a fairly stale interview. These are the same people who were raised on Al, reborn under KO, and felt they'd found a spiritual successor in Buzz. While they certainly value winning, they want Marquette to do so in an interesting, eccentric way. They hate the idea of Marquette being a bland, disciplined program as much as they hate seeing Marquette lose.

That's why they can't embrace Wojo and why they diminish his accomplishments. By any measurement, Wojo has shown continued improvement and success the past three years. If you aren't excited about players like Howard and Hauser (as well as Henry last year) then honestly what do you want? This is progress, and anyone around the program that doesn't see it is choosing to be willfully blind.

And last point, I'm really sick of the whole "if you'd been around the program and given as much as I have" line of BS. Some of us weren't born that long ago, some of us don't have the means. Commitment isn't measured by a date of birth or a bank account. I'm glad for those that have enjoyed a long time of Marquette success and done well for themselves, but that doesn't make you a better fan than anyone else on here.

Hear, Hear!

[GGGG]

I don't think Mayo helped Buzz's case either. He didn't cause anything to change from a JUCO perspective, but I doubt he helped the Buzz/Administration relationship.

Yep.  Excellent point.

[jsglow]

Players is correct.  Dwight Buycks couldn't have graduated during his eligibility either.  He ended up graduating so I don't think it really matters.

I'm not certain that's right Sultan.  I had though Buycks was on track when he arrived.  I might be wrong.  Look, don't really want to speak about some of our Jucos too much but let's just say that post DJO and Jimmy, the BOT started to wonder if the way Buzz was proceeding was the best thing given the mission of the university.  Certainly 'reservations' about Jae were totally unrelated relative to 'reservations' about Todd.

[brewcity77]

So Buzz brought in one player (not players, as you posted) without a reasonable chance to graduate during his eligibility and this = bringing restrictions on himself.

Do you suppose the recruitment of Henry (and his brother, for that matter) will result in "restrictions" on Wojo? Sure hope not.

You brought up Jae, then blame me for using him as an example? 

And Henry not graduating is different than seniors not graduating. The key is to keep players on track to graduate as long as they're here. Jae wasn't the only player with that problem. And in his case, not his fault.

[brewcity77]

I don't think Mayo helped Buzz's case either. He didn't cause anything to change from a JUCO perspective, but I doubt he helped the Buzz/Administration relationship.

Honestly, I think he was a bigger part of the problem than Jae was. Buzz got in a bit over his head with that one.

[jsglow]

Here's one of the things I LOVE about Wojo.  Ya'll remember Juan and Derrick his first year as coach?  I don't think Wojo ever said an unkind word about either.  It didn't matter that neither was a legitimate high major basketball player.  They couldn't do anything about that.  What mattered is that they are fine individuals who represented our university with honor.  And coach knew and appreciated that.

Heck, too bad neither made it back to the alumni game.  Next year, hopefully.

[jsglow]

You brought up Jae, then blame me for using him as an example? 

And Henry not graduating is different than seniors not graduating. The key is to keep players on track to graduate as long as they're here. Jae wasn't the only player with that problem. And in his case, not his fault.

Ding, ding.

Honestly, I think he was a bigger part of the problem than Jae was. Buzz got in a bit over his head with that one.

Nobody had anything but the highest regard for Jae.  It was simply the fact that graduation was 'impossible' and that didn't fit the university mission well.  Todd (and 1-2 others), on the other hand.....

[Loose Cannon]

Here's one of the things I LOVE about Wojo.  Ya'll remember Juan and Derrick his first year as coach?  I don't think Wojo ever said an unkind word about either.  I didn't matter that neither was a legitimate high major basketball players.  They couldn't do anything about that.  What mattered is that they are fine individuals who represented our university with honor.  And coach knew and appreciated that.

Heck, too bad neither made it back to the alumni game.  Next year, hopefully.

Thanks, for bringing that, sometime things go unnoticed.

[Goose]

brew

Agreed on much of your post. Especially the length of time being a fan or size of a bank account. I can say with 100% confidence that I have never told a younger or older fan to basically get off this site. Over the past several months I have been told that by several folks on here. I am no better of a fan than anyone, and actually probably not as good as many here. That said, I do believe that respect should be a given to ALL posters on here.

I will say I find your post to be a tad ironic. I just read many, many PM's that you sent me during "difficult" times over the years looking for the inside scoop. The promise to this "old" fan, from you,  that you would keep our talks confidential cracks me up.

[BM1090]

Here's one of the things I LOVE about Wojo.  Ya'll remember Juan and Derrick his first year as coach?  I don't think Wojo ever said an unkind word about either.  I didn't matter that neither was a legitimate high major basketball player.  They couldn't do anything about that.  What mattered is that they are fine individuals who represented our university with honor.  And coach knew and appreciated that.

Heck, too bad neither made it back to the alumni game.  Next year, hopefully.

I couldn't agree more. And for all the de-motivator talk, we have seen Derrick, Juan, Luke, Markus, Katin, Henry, Cheatham (and maybe I'm missing some) all run over after big wins and embrace Wojo. These guys clearly do not dislike him.

[Lennys Tap]

On the point about people wanting the program to be eccentric, I never really agreed with this.  It sounds cool in isolation but we are not in the 70s anymore and the McGuire days are long gone.  Eccentricity comes with volatility, friction, and short relationships.  You can't have a conservative, Catholic, midwestern institution and expect it to always get a long with coaches that want free reign to speak their minds and ruffle feathers.  It's just not going to last in an era where players can tweet whatever pops into their minds and everyone wants to know everything that happens behind closed doors.  I'll take a boring Wojo who conducts himself and the program with class any day.

No doubt that Al at times (KO and Buzz, too) made the administration uncomfortable. OTOH, Bob Dukiet was an easy going piano playing get along guy. 

The fact is that our program has thrived under eccentric leaders - even Tom Crean was odd, though not in a good way. Wojo is the administration's dream coach - young, Duke pedigree, wears blue blazers and gray slacks and never says anything controversial or even interesting. A good guy, a solid guy, a careful guy - he reminds of former Notre Dame coach Bob Davie.

Can we win big without an administration and a leader willing to push the envelope a little? Hope so, but that's not our history.

[The Lens]

For those comparing Dukiet to Buzz...

KO inherited a program that had not made the NCAAs in 6 years
Wojo inherited a program that had made the Elite 8 a year before his arrival

It's not just about players (though JJJ, Deonte, Duane and Luke as underclassmen aren't all bad) it's about the state of the program.

Wojo could walk into living rooms armed with

Top 5 Conference
State of the Art facilities
Recent string of 8 straight dances
Recent string of 3 straight S16s
Jordan Brand
4 stand out NBA players
Huge operating and recruiting budget

If you wonder why Goose and others have high expectations of the program, look at those stats.

[brewcity77]

I will say I find your post to be a tad ironic. I just read many, many PM's that you sent me during "difficult" times over the years looking for the inside scoop. The promise to this "old" fan, from you,  that you would keep our talks confidential cracks me up.

I don't save all my PMs, so no idea what I've made public that we've discussed. If it came specifically from you I apologize.

[BM1090]

For those comparing Dukiet to Buzz...

KO inherited a program that had not made the NCAAs in 6 years
Wojo inherited a program that had made the Elite 8 a year before his arrival

It's not just about players (though JJJ, Deonte, Duane and Luke as underclassmen aren't all bad) it's about the state of the program.

Wojo could walk into living rooms armed with

Top 5 Conference
State of the Art facilities
Recent string of 8 straight dances
Recent string of 3 straight S16s
Jordan Brand
4 stand out NBA players
Huge operating and recruiting budget

If you wonder why Goose and other have high expectations of the program, look at those stats.

These stats are hugely beneficial from a recruiting standpoint, and probably part of the reason Wojo has done a good job in that aspect.

But those stats are largely irrelevant to immediate on court performance. Only the roster matters at that point. And our roster was crap.

[Lennys Tap]

You brought up Jae, then blame me for using him as an example? 

You said PLAYERS, as if it was multiple guys, or, worse yet, the rule of thumb. That fact is it was one (1) player, Jae Crowder.

[GGGG]

For those comparing Dukiet to Buzz...

KO inherited a program that had not made the NCAAs in 6 years
Wojo inherited a program that had made the Elite 8 a year before his arrival

It's not just about players (though JJJ, Deonte, Duane and Luke as underclassmen aren't all bad) it's about the state of the program.

Wojo could walk into living rooms armed with

Top 5 Conference
State of the Art facilities
Recent string of 8 straight dances
Recent string of 3 straight S16s
Jordan Brand
4 stand out NBA players
Huge operating and recruiting budget

If you wonder why Goose and other have high expectations of the program, look at those stats.

Everyone has high expectations.