This is progress

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

What if Jae redshirted?  I know, a silly hypothetical.  But Jae could have redshirted, been on track to graduate, and then turn pro after his RS-Junior year.  Then we could all feel better about the MU mission statement.  Sure we'd probably miss the tournament in 2011, and that would mean no miracle Sweet 16 run.

Plus, "Henry could have graduated had he stayed 4 years" is simply mental gymnastics to trick yourself into not feeling like a hypocrite.  From my point of view, the BOT is a bunch of hypocrites for viewing Jae and Henry differently.

Personally, I'm happy both played at MU.

[jsglow]

No doubt that Al at times (KO and Buzz, too) made the administration uncomfortable. OTOH, Bob Dukiet was an easy going piano playing get along guy. 

The fact is that our program has thrived under eccentric leaders - even Tom Crean was odd, though not in a good way. Wojo is the administration's dream coach - young, Duke pedigree, wears blue blazers and gray slacks and never says anything controversial or even interesting. A good guy, a solid guy, a careful guy - he reminds of former Notre Dame coach Bob Davie.

Can we win big without an administration and a leader willing to push the envelope a little? Hope so, but that's not our history.

But it IS the Duke way.  And with our facilities, budget, and conference that CAN (not necessarily WILL) be the Marquette way.

[GGGG]

What if Jae redshirted?  I know, a silly hypothetical.  But Jae could have redshirted, been on track to graduate, and then turn pro after his RS-Junior year.  Then we could all feel better about the MU mission statement.  Sure we'd probably miss the tournament in 2011, and that would mean no miracle Sweet 16 run.

Plus, "Henry could have graduated had he stayed 4 years" is simply mental gymnastics to trick yourself into not feeling like a hypocrite.  From my point of view, the BOT is a bunch of hypocrites for viewing Jae and Henry differently.

Personally, I'm happy both played at MU.

Except Jae and Todd negatively impact our APR score.  Henry doesn't.  (I think I have that correct.)

[Spotcheck Billy]

Slightly different topic, but I wonder if Wojo would have handled Deonte differently now that he has more experience under his belt.  Of all the transfers out, he really is the only one that I look back and think "what could have been."  With the driving lanes that are opening up with these shooters?  And it's not like his defense was any worse than some of the other players on this team.

but Burton would have exhausted his eligibility before Wojo was able to get shooters to open the driving lanes.

[brewcity77]

You said PLAYERS, as if it was multiple guys, or, worse yet, the rule of thumb. That fact is it was one (1) player, Jae Crowder.

I have heard about more than one. And other academic issues accompanying that only made things worse.

[GGGG]

but Burton would have exhausted his eligibility before Wojo was able to get shooters to open the driving lanes.

He'd be a senior this year.  Same class as JJJ and Duane (who redshirted.)

[Spotcheck Billy]

He'd be a senior this year.  Same class as JJJ and Duane (who redshirted.)

Thanks, I knew I should have checked before posting that.

[brewcity77]

Plus, "Henry could have graduated had he stayed 4 years" is simply mental gymnastics to trick yourself into not feeling like a hypocrite.  From my point of view, the BOT is a bunch of hypocrites for viewing Jae and Henry differently.

Personally, I'm happy both played at MU.

That's also the NCAA standard, which has led to APR suspensions for other programs in the past, so kind of hard to label following NCAA standards as hypocritical.

I'm also happy both played here. I don't blame Jae for his circumstance and honestly, if he was putting in the work to get as close to graduating as possible, I think that's what should be the expectation.

But I'm not part of the NCAA regulations committee nor a member of Marquette's BOT.

[Lennys Tap]

But it IS the Duke way.  And with our facilities, budget, and conference that CAN (not necessarily WILL) be the Marquette way.

Yes, it is the Duke way. And no doubt the plan is to become "Duke North". IMO that plan, that vision of the university and the basketball program, is unrealistic.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Except Jae and Todd negatively impact our APR score.  Henry doesn't.  (I think I have that correct.)

True.  Needing to keep the APR up is a better argument than graduate vs not graduate.  But staying away from academic sanctions is important to benefit the basketball team.  Graduating players is a nice bonus.

[GGGG]

Yes, it is the Duke way. And no doubt the plan is to become "Duke North". IMO that plan, that vision of the university and the basketball program, is unrealistic.

Am I missing something?  Are they sacrificing talent to bring players in here? 

I would agree with you if we had a bunch of mid-major players running around out there, but we don't. 

[Goose]

Brew

You never shared any PM info, just thought it was funny and ironic that you at one point felt I was worth PMing for scoop and now tired of the type of fan I am. Trust me, I have zero problem with you. Just thought it was quite amusing on things turn over time.

[jsglow]

What if Jae redshirted?  I know, a silly hypothetical.  But Jae could have redshirted, been on track to graduate, and then turn pro after his RS-Junior year.  Then we could all feel better about the MU mission statement.  Sure we'd probably miss the tournament in 2011, and that would mean no miracle Sweet 16 run.

Plus, "Henry could have graduated had he stayed 4 years" is simply mental gymnastics to trick yourself into not feeling like a hypocrite.  From my point of view, the BOT is a bunch of hypocrites for viewing Jae and Henry differently.

Personally, I'm happy both played at MU.

I'm sorry.  That's simply a poorly thought out position in my opinion. 

Every year, 2,000 Freshmen show up on campus.  ALL have the opportunity to pursue a Bachelor's degree and to complete that course of study over four years.  Marquette takes GREAT PRIDE in the fact that all students can avoid the dreaded Super Senior status if they work hard and remain flexible with individual course selection.  That's no longer true at some of the big state schools because of budget limitations and cutbacks. 

Now do ALL of those 2,000 kids graduate?  No, of course not.  Some leave school because they flunk out.  Some leave school because they run out of money.  Some decide that MU isn't a good fit and transfer.  Marquette tracks the 6 year graduation rate (the industry standard) and is near the very top of all institutions in the country.  Like VERY near the top (I just don't have the stats handy.)

So when an Admissions counselor tells a family that their kid has been admitted, they can honestly say to that family that their kid has genuine prospects for graduating with a MU degree and back it up.  Every student in every field is given the chance to earn their degree.  Direct Admit programs (like Nursing) further that objective.

Henry had that chance, just like 1,999 others.  It was HIS decision not to do that.  No deviation from the mission whatsoever.

(Sorry if I take this a little personally.  I served for a few years on the Admissions Advisory Board although was not involved in the 'Jae matter'.)

[Goose]

Lenny


Duke North? How about UW East, first. Lets take some baby steps and be realistic.

[connie]

Lack of Track Record - Name one coach in the last 40 years that had a better track record prior to Marquette and had success.  The closest is Mike Deane who coached powerhouse Siena prior to taking over.  He was not successful. Crean was a high level assistant coach with less experience.  Buzz had less experience.  Crean struggled in a lower league before getting the ship correct.  Wojo is more experienced then both and he inherited a team not nearly as good as Buzz had.

Lack of Significant player improvement - Matt Heldt has gotten significantly better.  Markus Howard is very good.  Hauser is very good.  If you look at the team Wojo's players are the best players on the team.  Year over year his teams have gotten much better.  That is what is important.

Different Teams - He has had different teams.  He inherited a very limited team and had to go get a fifth year senior just to be competitive.  Year 2 he had a first round NBA player who was one and done.  He left and started over.  Each year the team has gotten better and he is starting to build steam. 

Let's be honest.  Those people who don't like Wojo don't like him because of Duke.

First, you are reading way to much into my response.  The question was why is there a lack of confidence in Wojo.  I took that to ask why are there doubts, and my answer addressed why those doubts exist.  I understand there are those calling for Wojo's head.  I am not.  I am simply not sold on him.  In part, because he has not been a head coach before.  That's it.  Yes, lots of assistants get their first head job and do well, lots of old coaches move and fail.  I was simply pointing to Wojo's lack of a track record as a factor leading to a lack of confidence.

I will give you Heldt's improvement over the past games.  I don't see how you can do a year to year analysis of the freshman you otherwise rely upon.  I like Howard and Hauser and hope they improve next year, you know, when next year gets here.

The vastly different teams is simply an indication that I don't have a clear vision of the style Wojo wants to play.  If he wants a lock down defensive team then I have serious questions given the poor defense played for the past three years.  Maybe he has adjusted to fit the rosters--I hope so, but since he really hasn't had a full or balanced roster yet I have questions.  That's it. 

As for the Duke thing, I see that as no more reason to be confident as to be critical, and never mentioned it.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my recollection is one player who didn't have a realistic chance of graduating in the last semester of his eligibility.

Of course, everyone also knew when Henry Ellenson was signed there was zero chance he'd ever graduate but the powers that be and the scolds on Scoop viewed that very differently.

I was grateful to have both Jae and Henry.

There is a huge (YUGE!) difference between a player who will likely choose to not graduate and a player for whom it is impossible to graduate.

And while there was only one who it was literally impossible, there were others who everyone knew that barring an epiphany from god, were never going to graduate. There were also disciplinary issues with some of Buzz' recruits.

I'm not like Chicos and saying the program was out of control dirty. I think there were some issues that needed to be addressed. I think Larry was heavy handed but not unreasonable in his response. The resulting feud between him and Buzz is what set us on the path to today.

[Goose]

Connie and Everyone Else,

I love winners and I LOVE Duke. No argument from this guy if Wojo makes MU into Duke. Who in their right mind would not want that? Anyone that thinks otherwise is not thinking straight.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Honestly, I think he was a bigger part of the problem than Jae was. Buzz got in a bit over his head with that one.

Agreed

[jsglow]

There is a huge (YUGE!) difference between a player who will likely choose to not graduate and a player for whom it is impossible to graduate.

And while there was only one who it was literally impossible, there were others who everyone knew that barring an epiphany from god, were never going to graduate. There were also disciplinary issues with some of Buzz' recruits.

I'm not like Chicos and saying the program was out of control dirty. I think there were some issues that needed to be addressed. I think Larry was heavy handed but not unreasonable in his response. The resulting feud between him and Buzz is what set us on the path to today.

+1

[BM1090]

Lenny


Duke North? How about UW East, first. Lets take some baby steps and be realistic.

UW is barely better than us right now, if they even are better.

I know, I know. Last 3 years, consistency. But if we're looking soley at trajectory... UW has gotten worse each of the last three years. Currently lost 6 of 7 games. They lose 4 senior starters. They don't exactly have a bunch of reinforcements coming in, although they do have a good recruiting class. They have a new coach who is still a question mark.

We have a new coach that's still a question mark. We're young. We have improved each of the last three years.

Obviously the starting points were two different extremes. Just playing devil's advocate.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Glow-

You are talking about the general student population.  The basketball team falls into a different bucket.

Historically, MU has taken basketball players that would not be admitted as general students.  Not all but some.  Wade is probably the best example.  An ACT of 17 or 18 is typically not accepted.  But Wade could play basketball so he got admitted.  Wade even faired well in the classroom.  But I don't see how Wade would be admitted if he wasn't a basketball player.

If you have information of MU accepting academic risks that are not athletes, I'd love to hear some stats.  Until then, I view it as apples and oranges.

I have no problem with recruiting great basketball players that are also great students.  Markus Howard hits high marks in both regards.  But I'm also not naive about men's basketball players getting a little leeway, at least in the past.

Now I have a question for you.  Why was Jae Crowder admitted in the first place?  To admit Crowder and then place restrictions based on Crowder's inability to graduate is the very definition of hypocrisy!  Please enlighten me if you know more.

[Goose]

MU Eagle

I would love to have UW's athletic department and academic reputation at MU. Long way to go on both fronts, just being honest.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

What if Jae redshirted?  I know, a silly hypothetical.  But Jae could have redshirted, been on track to graduate, and then turn pro after his RS-Junior year.  Then we could all feel better about the MU mission statement.  Sure we'd probably miss the tournament in 2011, and that would mean no miracle Sweet 16 run.

Plus, "Henry could have graduated had he stayed 4 years" is simply mental gymnastics to trick yourself into not feeling like a hypocrite.  From my point of view, the BOT is a bunch of hypocrites for viewing Jae and Henry differently.

Personally, I'm happy both played at MU.

My understanding of Jae's situation was that it was so bad that even if he had redshirted, it would have still been impossible barring maxing out credits every semester including the summer.

As I said elsewhere, there is an enormous difference between impossible to graduate and choose not to graduate. One is the university taking advantage of a student's ability to play ball and the other is a student declining a benefit offered to him.

Jae is a great human being and representative of the university. I'm glad he played here. It worked out because he became an NBA player. If he hadn't and had been left with no college degree or work experience other than playing basketball....I might feel differently. I don't think it was unreasonable for the university to say "from now on, only players for whom it is at least possible to graduate."

The other reality is that several of Buzz' players could have graduated....but it was pretty much known that they wouldn't because they simply didn't have the academic ability to do so. I am more comfortable with that but it is still a concern, especially when it starts to affect APR scores.

Then there were disciplinary issues with some recruits. Todd didn't go to six high schools because he liked to move around. Malik Harris was an arsonist. There was another recruit, I don't remember which one, but he was accused of multiple sexual assaults. Buzz still wanted him to come in, university had to say no.

[Lennys Tap]

Am I missing something?  Are they sacrificing talent to bring players in here? 

I would agree with you if we had a bunch of mid-major players running around out there, but we don't.

I think the talent Wojo has here right now spans the spectrum from elite (Markus) to solid (Sam, Katin, Rowsey) to ? (Haanif, Sacar, Matt).

Next year's guys I don't know enough about to venture a guess.

But to answer your question - not mid major guys nor guys (with the exception of Markus) who could get 10+ minutes a game at the "real" Duke.

We'll never see consistent talent at MU like we did in the late 60s through the 70s - too much competition. But Buzz proved we could get at least fairly close. Hope we can recreate that success - jury's still out.

[The Lens]

Marquette:

WE CAN'T HAVE ANOTHER JAE!!! WHAT A DISASTER!

Marquette Social Media:

LET'S WISH BOSTON CELTIC JAE CROWDER A HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!! YES THAT JAE CROWDER, HE PLAYED FOR US AND NOW HE'S IN THE NBA!  NBA! NBA! JAE! JAE! #mubb