NBA '17

[wadesworld]

Then Giannis did this...

https://twitter.com/BucksNewsNStuff/status/961057770723213312

Yeah, that was so mean.

John McEnroe's face was awesome.

[4everwarriors]

Hardaway got an up close and personal sniff of #34's crotch,  aina?

[4everwarriors]

Shouldn'tna fined Magic for tellin' da truth, hey?

[wadesworld]

Shouldn'tna fined Magic for tellin' da truth, hey?

Amen, this guy is special.

Here's a video of the play with McEnroe's reaction.  Middleton's reaction is really good too.

https://twitter.com/Bucks/status/961063031407915008

[MUBurrow]

DEADLINE DAY!

Cleveland looks pretty resigned to LeBron leaving, aina?

[GGGG]

Jae's been traded to Utah.

Boston to Cleveland to Utah.  Not going in the right direction.

[GGGG]

DEADLINE DAY!

Cleveland looks pretty resigned to LeBron leaving, aina?

Actually they are completely transforming their roster to get some younger scorers around Lebron.

[Pakuni]

Bulls trade Jameer Nelson to Detroit. Possibly bad news for Dwight Buycks.

[Pakuni]

 Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn

Cleveland is trading Dwyane Wade to Miami, league sources tell ESPN.

[GoldenDieners32]

Jae crowder traded

[MUBurrow]

Actually they are completely transforming their roster to get some younger scorers around Lebron.

Holy hell Altman, I had made my original post just before the Crowder and Wade deals.

Trying to piece this together live, so far its:

Out: IT (expiring), Wade (expiring), Crowder (2 more affordable years), Frye (expiring), Shumpert ($11M player option), DRose (expiring), Cle's (not Nets) 1st rounder -heavily protected

In: Clarkson (2 years about $12M per), Nance (1 year $2M), Hill (2 years $19M per), Hood (expiring), heavily protected Mia 2nd rounder.

I'm sure that Lowe or another NBA-knower will have a column tonight about why I'm an idiot, but to me this doesn't seem much better or worse - just different. Also much more expensive in the 2019 offseason?

So the sale to LeBron right now for 2019 is trading Crowder and Shumpert for Clarkson, Nance and Hill. Seems to me they might have been better off packaging Crowder to get rid of the Thompson or JR deals and then selling LeBron on the Nets pick and their money this offseason, rather than this Rube Goldberg?

Edit: missed Frye in outgoing

[GB Warrior]

Holy hell Altman, I had made my original post just before the Crowder and Wade deals.

Trying to piece this together live, so far its:

Out: IT (expiring), Wade (expiring), Crowder (2 more affordable years), Frye (expiring), Shumpert ($11M player option), DRose (expiring), Cle's (not Nets) 1st rounder -heavily protected

In: Clarkson (2 years about $12M per), Nance (1 year $2M), Hill (2 years $19M per), Hood (expiring), heavily protected Mia 2nd rounder.

I'm sure that Lowe or another NBA-knower will have a column tonight about why I'm an idiot, but to me this doesn't seem much better or worse - just different. Also much more expensive in the 2019 offseason?

So the sale to LeBron right now for 2019 is trading Crowder and Shumpert for Clarkson, Nance and Hill. Seems to me they might have been better off packaging Crowder to get rid of the Thompson or JR deals and then selling LeBron on the Nets pick and their money this offseason, rather than this Rube Goldberg?

Edit: missed Frye in outgoing

This seems like a good series of moves. Clarkson and Nance are younger, healthier (albeit not as good, all things being equal) players at the same position as Frye and IT, and Clarkson gives them size. Add Hood (replace Wade in the lineup), which is a plus, and George Hill who can still play, this seems like they're going to go out swinging. At minimum, they'll have younger pieces if it all goes to hell this summer, and they'll have cap space.

[MUfan12]

Cavs know their defense is awful, so may as well add some scoring.

[drewm88]

So the sale to LeBron right now for 2019 is trading Crowder and Shumpert for Clarkson, Nance and Hill. Seems to me they might have been better off packaging Crowder to get rid of the Thompson or JR deals and then selling LeBron on the Nets pick and their money this offseason, rather than this Rube Goldberg?

I think the sale is things weren't working as-is, we're committed to trying something else that can make noise this year. LeBron may be too old to be sold on a 19 year old who won't peak for another 5 years.

[forgetful]

Jae's been traded to Utah.

Boston to Cleveland to Utah.  Not going in the right direction.

This was predictable when he was traded to the Cavs.  For a chance at a title, playing with Lebron is a good idea.  For your future paychecks, it is a terrible idea.  He makes people look worse....but he does win championships.

[MUBurrow]

I think the sale is things weren't working as-is, we're committed to trying something else that can make noise this year. LeBron may be too old to be sold on a 19 year old who won't peak for another 5 years.

Which I get with Hill and Hood, but I don't get the Lakers trade. Clarkson is a bad volume scorer who is overpaid - he and JR will make $27.2M next year and $29.1 in 2019. That's either help convince LeBron to stay space or absorb bad contracts for draft assets if he leaves space. Then, if you don't think your own first rounder helps you keep LeBron or will be too late to be a useful rebuild piece anyway, use it to find a team for some combo of absorbing IT and/or some of your bad salaries or use it get Tyreke Evans who can play and is on an expiring from Memphis.  Then grab Tony Allen at the waiver deadline for perimeter defense. 

[Pakuni]

This was predictable when he was traded to the Cavs.  For a chance at a title, playing with Lebron is a good idea.  For your future paychecks, it is a terrible idea.  He makes people look worse....but he does win championships.

Not sure I buy the "makes people look worse" bit.
How many guys who looked bad alongside LeBron went on to success with other teams after getting away from him? I'm honestly drawing a blank.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Not sure I buy the "makes people look worse" bit.
How many guys who looked bad alongside LeBron went on to success with other teams after getting away from him? I'm honestly drawing a blank.

Bosh went from averaging 24 ppg his last season with the Raps to 16 ppg his last year with LeBron. His first year post-LeBron, he averaged 21 before clots ended his season.

Wade went from averaging 15 ppg / 4 rpg / 3 apg in the last finals with LeBron while everyone called him washed up and blamed him for Lebron losing to then averaging 24 ppg / 6 rpg / 4 apg while dragging the Heat to game 7 of the eastern conference semis 2 years later without LeBron/Bosh/Whiteside/functioning keecaps.

[forgetful]

Not sure I buy the "makes people look worse" bit.
How many guys who looked bad alongside LeBron went on to success with other teams after getting away from him? I'm honestly drawing a blank.

Ellenson gives some examples.  Lebron's style of play is not designed to amplify others.  He has to dominate the ball, which is why Lebron/Wade playing along side each other in Miami was a problem at first.  One needed to kind of change the way they played.  Wade took a step aside, and Miami thrived.

[MU82]

Lebron's style of play is not designed to amplify others.

Incorrect. He can take over games as a scorer, yes, but he is a tremendous passer and willing playmaker. One of the biggest criticisms of him over the years is that he has not looked for his own shot enough "like Michael and Kobe used to."

As for the trades, to me it boiled down to Cleveland adding Hill for this year's playoffs while doing an addition-by-subtraction thing with IT ... because that simply wasn't working.

I'm not sure about all the other stuff from Cleveland's standpoint, though.

Utah made a great trade for Jae. That's not a bad team at all, and Jae should contribute a lot there.

Lakers obviously making moves for a couple of serious FA signings next summer. Quite possibly LeBron.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Incorrect. He can take over games as a scorer, yes, but he is a tremendous passer and willing playmaker. One of the biggest criticisms of him over the years is that he has not looked for his own shot enough "like Michael and Kobe used to."

As for the trades, to me it boiled down to Cleveland adding Hill for this year's playoffs while doing an addition-by-subtraction thing with IT ... because that simply wasn't working.

I'm not sure about all the other stuff from Cleveland's standpoint, though.

Utah made a great trade for Jae. That's not a bad team at all, and Jae should contribute a lot there.

Lakers obviously making moves for a couple of serious FA signings next summer. Quite possibly LeBron.

He's a great passer, but it's not a golden state warriors type of passing where everyone is touching the ball on a lot of possessions. It's spread out and create space for LeBron, and act as an outlet when he draws attention. Sure he'll find you, but there's a lot of standing around and ball watching, which does not exaclty highlight a player's full range of abilities. It's also a style I can't stand watching.

[forgetful]

Incorrect. He can take over games as a scorer, yes, but he is a tremendous passer and willing playmaker.

There is a very good reason why the coaching staff tried to maximize time when both Lebron and Kyrie were not on the floor at the same time, and had their success in that format, and why they did the same thing again this year is placing several of their other top players in a second group that maximized playing time without Lebron. 

He's an all time great, but his game is not necessarily conducive to amplifying the performance of other high quality players. 

[Pakuni]

Bosh went from averaging 24 ppg his last season with the Raps to 16 ppg his last year with LeBron. His first year post-LeBron, he averaged 21 before clots ended his season.

Wade went from averaging 15 ppg / 4 rpg / 3 apg in the last finals with LeBron while everyone called him washed up and blamed him for Lebron losing to then averaging 24 ppg / 6 rpg / 4 apg while dragging the Heat to game 7 of the eastern conference semis 2 years later without LeBron/Bosh/Whiteside/functioning keecaps.

Scottie Pippen averaged 18.6/7.7 in 1992-93.
The following two seasons, while MJ was temporarily retired, he averaged 22.0/8.7 and 21.4/8.1.
When Jordan returned, Scottie averaged 19.4/6.4.
In 1994-95, pre-Jordan, Toni Kukoc averaged 15.7/5.4. When Jordan returned the next year, he dropped to 13.1/4.0.

Ergo, Michael Jordan made players around him worse?

Or, how about the fact that playing alongside the best player in the world is obviously going to diminish one's raw stats, and that's a terrible, awful, very bad, no good way to measure how well one is playing?

I mean, of course Bosh's raw stats were lower when he was playing third fiddle to LeBron and Wade compared to a Toronto team where the next best players were Andrea Barnani and Hedo Turkoglu. He went from a 28.7 usage rate to 23.5. That's not LeBron making him worse, that's LeBron making his less necessary. And when LeBron went back to Cleveland? Bosh's usage rate was back over 28 percent.
Same with Wade. His usage went from a league high 36.2 and 34.9 in  the two seasons pre-LeBron, to 31.6, 31.3, 29.5 and 27.9 with LeBron. Guess what happened when LeBron left? Back up to 34.7, and the raw stats are a reflection of that.
Again, this is not in the least bit evidence that LeBron made Wade worse. LeBron just made him a smaller part of the offense.

In fact, in Wade's first season without LeBron in Miami, his efficiency rating fell, his true shooting percentage fell, his win shares fell and his VORP fell. So the truth is, playing alongside LeBron made him better.
Same with Bosh. His PER ticked up 0.8, but his true shooting percentage fell, his win shares fell and his VORP dropped significantly. Again, he was a better player with LeBron.

So, contrary to what you're saying, these guys were better in Miami with LeBron than without him. Their raw stats went up only because their usage went up, not because their play improved.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Scottie Pippen averaged 18.6/7.7 in 1992-93.
The following two seasons, while MJ was temporarily retired, he averaged 22.0/8.7 and 21.4/8.1.
When Jordan returned, Scottie averaged 19.4/6.4.
In 1994-95, pre-Jordan, Toni Kukoc averaged 15.7/5.4. When Jordan returned the next year, he dropped to 13.1/4.0.

Ergo, Michael Jordan made players around him worse?

Or, how about the fact that playing alongside the best player in the world is obviously going to diminish one's raw stats, and that's a terrible, awful, very bad, no good way to measure how well one is playing?

I mean, of course Bosh's raw stats were lower when he was playing third fiddle to LeBron and Wade compared to a Toronto team where the next best players were Andrea Barnani and Hedo Turkoglu. He went from a 28.7 usage rate to 23.5. That's not LeBron making him worse, that's LeBron making his less necessary. And when LeBron went back to Cleveland? Bosh's usage rate was back over 28 percent.
Same with Wade. His usage went from a league high 36.2 and 34.9 in  the two seasons pre-LeBron, to 31.6, 31.3, 29.5 and 27.9 with LeBron. Guess what happened when LeBron left? Back up to 34.7, and the raw stats are a reflection of that.
Again, this is not in the least bit evidence that LeBron made Wade worse. LeBron just made him a smaller part of the offense.

In fact, in Wade's first season without LeBron in Miami, his efficiency rating fell, his true shooting percentage fell, his win shares fell and his VORP fell. So the truth is, playing alongside LeBron made him better.
Same with Bosh. His PER ticked up 0.8, but his true shooting percentage fell, his win shares fell and his VORP dropped significantly. Again, he was a better player with LeBron.

So, contrary to what you're saying, these guys were better in Miami with LeBron than without him. Their raw stats went up only because their usage went up, not because their play improved.

Not sure I buy the "makes people look worse" bit.

You said "makes them look worse" not "makes them worse"

Yes, those guys all look worse, your examples included, and were trashed by fans (just like Kevin Love is) because they have to stand around and wait for their turn.

I didn't love watching Jordan's Bulls either for that reason.

[MU82]

Scottie Pippen averaged 18.6/7.7 in 1992-93.
The following two seasons, while MJ was temporarily retired, he averaged 22.0/8.7 and 21.4/8.1.
When Jordan returned, Scottie averaged 19.4/6.4.
In 1994-95, pre-Jordan, Toni Kukoc averaged 15.7/5.4. When Jordan returned the next year, he dropped to 13.1/4.0.

Ergo, Michael Jordan made players around him worse?

Or, how about the fact that playing alongside the best player in the world is obviously going to diminish one's raw stats, and that's a terrible, awful, very bad, no good way to measure how well one is playing?

I mean, of course Bosh's raw stats were lower when he was playing third fiddle to LeBron and Wade compared to a Toronto team where the next best players were Andrea Barnani and Hedo Turkoglu. He went from a 28.7 usage rate to 23.5. That's not LeBron making him worse, that's LeBron making his less necessary. And when LeBron went back to Cleveland? Bosh's usage rate was back over 28 percent.
Same with Wade. His usage went from a league high 36.2 and 34.9 in  the two seasons pre-LeBron, to 31.6, 31.3, 29.5 and 27.9 with LeBron. Guess what happened when LeBron left? Back up to 34.7, and the raw stats are a reflection of that.
Again, this is not in the least bit evidence that LeBron made Wade worse. LeBron just made him a smaller part of the offense.

In fact, in Wade's first season without LeBron in Miami, his efficiency rating fell, his true shooting percentage fell, his win shares fell and his VORP fell. So the truth is, playing alongside LeBron made him better.
Same with Bosh. His PER ticked up 0.8, but his true shooting percentage fell, his win shares fell and his VORP dropped significantly. Again, he was a better player with LeBron.

So, contrary to what you're saying, these guys were better in Miami with LeBron than without him. Their raw stats went up only because their usage went up, not because their play improved.

Nicely stated.

Over the course of his amazing career, LeBron has made teammates great and not-so-great significantly better.