NBA '17

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

I understand hating certain teams. Michigan, Ohio State, Notre Dame, the Knicks - all do it for me. I don't get the player hate, though.

By all accounts, Durant is a model citizen who gives much to charity.

Draymond is exactly the kind of guy you should love. The anti-Rose. A guy who gives 110% all the time with no excuses. A guy who will play any position asked without fail whether it is against a quicker '3' or a much bigger '4' or '5'. A guy who holds everyone on the team to a high standard whether it is Steph or KD or the 12th guy on the roster.

I get hating Draymond.  He's a dirty player and takes cheap shots to the groin.

Durant hate I don't get.  It's like hating someone for leaving Yahoo to take a job at Google.

[JWags85]

Maybe cuz the other guy is a guarantee to be in the NBA Finals every year.

Well maybe cause without you, that other guy that gets to the Finals every year still wouldn't have his hometown ring.

He suffered through some all time terrible teams pre-Lebron, hit the biggest shot in franchise history, and has visibility into a toxic front office like reinko mentioned.  This is someone who sees that the Cavs will be a lesser version of themselves next year and then LBJ is off to LA and needs to plan the next stage of his career.

[MerrittsMustache]

Well maybe cause without you, that other guy that gets to the Finals every year still wouldn't have his hometown ring.

He suffered through some all time terrible teams pre-Lebron, hit the biggest shot in franchise history, and has visibility into a toxic front office like reinko mentioned.  This is someone who sees that the Cavs will be a lesser version of themselves next year and then LBJ is off to LA and needs to plan the next stage of his career.

For the sake of taking an alternative perspective...

If Kyrie really doesn't want to live in LeBron's shadow anymore and he thinks LeBron is leaving, he should want to stay in Cleveland and become the man for the Cavs beginning next year. If he thought LeBron was staying in Cleveland long-term, he'd want to go some place where he'd be the main focal point and, thus, he'd request a trade. That said, being traded to become the man on a contender sounds good in theory, but if that contender has to give up their young, valuable assets in the trade, you're basically right back where you started.

My honest opinion is that Kyrie 1) really wants to run his own team and 2) doesn't trust the Cavs' FO to improve the team whether LeBron stays or not.

[Pakuni]

Draymond is exactly the kind of guy you should love. The anti-Rose. A guy who gives 110% all the time with no excuses. A guy who will play any position asked without fail whether it is against a quicker '3' or a much bigger '4' or '5'. A guy who holds everyone on the team to a high standard whether it is Steph or KD or the 12th guy on the roster.

Also a guy who intentionally kicks other players in the nuts, body slams opponents,  likely cost his team a championship with his selfish behavior and picks fights with college kids.
What's not to love?

[Pakuni]

Or he sees the writing on the wall, with LBJ leaving in a year, a terrible off season, an aging roster, an average coach, a tool of an owner and an opportunity to help control his own destiny (like LBJ has done repeatedly).  Everything in the news have all been leaks from the Cavs so far, so methinks they have an agenda.

Both sides have an agenda. Is Kyrie's any more pure than the Cavs'?
And seriously ... was Dan Gilbert less of a tool in 2014 when Irving chose to sign a max contract extension? Was the roster looking like it was getting younger when they traded away young players that offseason and loaded up with James, Love, Mike Miller and Shawn Marion?

As for controlling his own destiny, he voluntarily surrendered that control two years ago in exchange for the security of a 5-year, $94 million contract. What he's trying to do is in no way similar to what LBJ has done when he's made moves as a free agent.

[PBRme]

Also a guy who intentionally kicks other players in the nuts, body slams opponents,  likely cost his team a championship with his selfish behavior and picks fights with college kids.
What's not to love?

+1

[MU82]

LeBron doesn't just win every year, he wins big every year. This is no accident. Without LeBron, Kyrie is still a good player on a crappy team - one he chose to stay with because he wanted the security and the money.

Yes, Kyrie hit a huge shot in the Finals. So did Steve Kerr and Jon Paxson. Yes, Kyrie is an All-Star. So was Scottie.

But Kerr and Paxson were nothing without Jordan, and Scottie was just another good player who never would have sniffed a title without Jordan.

Look at the Cleveland roster that LeBron carried to the 2007 Finals - Larry Hughes and Drew Gooden were the second and third best players. Yes, LeBron had some fabulous teammates during this 7-year run of Finals, but so what?

Jordan didn't have some great teammates? Kobe? Russell? Duncan? Bird? Magic? Kareem? Shaq? Frazier? Etc, etc, etc.

LeBron is the big dog; Kyrie is a flea. Please.

[GGGG]

But Kerr and Paxson were nothing without Jordan, and Scottie was just another good player who never would have sniffed a title without Jordan.

Well, Pippen was on the 2000 Blazers team that blow a 16 point 4th quarter lead in Game 7 of the Western Conference Finals.  The Lakers went on to beat the Pacers that year, and the Blazers likely would have as well.

[MerrittsMustache]

But Kerr and Paxson were nothing without Jordan, and Scottie was just another good player who never would have sniffed a title without Jordan.

You're selling Pippen severely short. He's a top 50 player in history. In '93-94, the Bulls won 55 games without Jordan and were a phantom foul away from being in the Conf Finals (against an Indy team the Bulls went 4-1 against during the regular season).

[Jockey]

You're selling Pippen severely short. He's a top 50 player in history. In '93-94, the Bulls won 55 games without Jordan and were a phantom foul away from being in the Conf Finals (against an Indy team the Bulls went 4-1 against during the regular season).

You are right. Scottie was a very, very good player - top 50 all-time - but not great in the MJ, Kobe, Duncan, LBJ mold.

He was not great enough to lead a team to a title.

[MerrittsMustache]

You are right. Scottie was a very, very good player - top 50 all-time - but not great in the MJ, Kobe, Duncan, LBJ mold.

He was not great enough to lead a team to a title.

How do we know? He really only had 1 shot at it and his team was one of the best in the conference that season.

I'm not putting him in the "best of the best" category but if Jordan stays retired, it's possible that Pippen gets to that level. More realistically, I'd put him in the Dirk Nowitzki category of great players who'd be good enough to be the best player on a championship team but he'd need the perfect supporting cast at the perfect time (i.e. the 2010-11 Mavs).

[Silkk the Shaka]

LeBron doesn't just win every year, he wins big every year. This is no accident. Without LeBron, Kyrie is still a good player on a crappy team - one he chose to stay with because he wanted the security and the money.

Yes, Kyrie hit a huge shot in the Finals. So did Steve Kerr and Jon Paxson. Yes, Kyrie is an All-Star. So was Scottie.

But Kerr and Paxson were nothing without Jordan, and Scottie was just another good player who never would have sniffed a title without Jordan.

Look at the Cleveland roster that LeBron carried to the 2007 Finals - Larry Hughes and Drew Gooden were the second and third best players. Yes, LeBron had some fabulous teammates during this 7-year run of Finals, but so what?

Jordan didn't have some great teammates? Kobe? Russell? Duncan? Bird? Magic? Kareem? Shaq? Frazier? Etc, etc, etc.

LeBron is the big dog; Kyrie is a flea. Please.

The east was also godawful that year, and the defending champs were missing their MVP (DWade). Heat would have been in that Finals no question if Wade didn't separate his shoulder. He was playing on another level that year.

[Silkk the Shaka]

How do we know? He really only had 1 shot at it and his team was one of the best in the conference that season.

I'm not putting him in the "best of the best" category but if Jordan stays retired, it's possible that Pippen gets to that level. More realistically, I'd put him in the Dirk Nowitzki category of great players who'd be good enough to be the best player on a championship team but he'd need the perfect supporting cast at the perfect time (i.e. the 2010-11 Mavs).

...and he'd also need the supposed GOAT to royally choke on the big stage

[Silkk the Shaka]

Well maybe cause without you, that other guy that gets to the Finals every year still wouldn't have his hometown ring.

He suffered through some all time terrible teams pre-Lebron, hit the biggest shot in franchise history, and has visibility into a toxic front office like reinko mentioned.  This is someone who sees that the Cavs will be a lesser version of themselves next year and then LBJ is off to LA and needs to plan the next stage of his career.

Agreed, Kyrie had some MVP-level performances that series and is viewed as a complete afterthought. And LeBron is definitely leaving after this season. Kyrie is just trying to beat him to the exit.

[Pakuni]

Look at the Cleveland roster that LeBron carried to the 2007 Finals - Larry Hughes and Drew Gooden were the second and third best players. Yes, LeBron had some fabulous teammates during this 7-year run of Finals, but so what?

Don't sleep on a healthy Zydrunas Ilgauskas, who averaged 15.6/10.2 for the Cavs that year.

[Jockey]

Don't sleep on a healthy Zydrunas Ilgauskas, who averaged 15.6/10.2 for the Cavs that year.

I think you just proved 82's point.

[Pakuni]

I think you just proved 82's point.

The point being that the Cavs' roster wasn't stacked that year? I'm not sure anyone is arguing against that.
But he said Gooden and Hughes were the best players on that team other than LeBron. I'm pointing out that Ilgauskas (a two-time all star who played reasonably well that season) probably was better than those two.

[MU82]

The point being that the Cavs' roster wasn't stacked that year? I'm not sure anyone is arguing against that.
But he said Gooden and Hughes were the best players on that team other than LeBron. I'm pointing out that Ilgauskas (a two-time all star who played reasonably well that season) probably was better than those two.

Well, in your haste to try to prove me wrong, you got Ilgauskas' numbers wrong. Just looked 'em up on two sites -- 11.9 points, 7.7 rebounds in 2006-07.

In fact, he never averaged 10 rebounds.

But nice try, though!

[MerrittsMustache]

Well, in your haste to try to prove me wrong, you got Ilgauskas' numbers wrong. Just looked 'em up on two sites -- 11.9 points, 7.7 rebounds in 2006-07.

In fact, he never averaged 10 rebounds.

But nice try, though!

Looks like he pulled ZI's Per 36 numbers. ZI was still the second-best player on the team and that team was still incredibly underwhelming aside from LeBron.

[Pakuni]

Looks like he pulled ZI's Per 36 numbers. ZI was still the second-best player on the team and that team was still incredibly underwhelming aside from LeBron.

That's exactly what I did. My mistake.
That said, Big Z still better than Hughes and Gooden.

[MU82]

That's exactly what I did. My mistake.
That said, Big Z still better than Hughes and Gooden.

That's opinion, of course.

Regardless, my thesis was sound. That team SUCKED, and LeBron carried them to the NBA Finals as a 22-year-old!!!

Just the first incredible act in an incredible career.

Kyrie Irving won zip before LeBron got there, and he'd win zip again after LeBron leaves (if Kyrie stayed).

Yep, Kyrie made that big shot, but LeBron was superhuman in those three games, including one of the great blocked shots in the history of basketball.

I can't believe I actually have to argue for LeBron anymore. No-doubter top 5, probably top-2.

[JWags85]

That's opinion, of course.

Regardless, my thesis was sound. That team SUCKED, and LeBron carried them to the NBA Finals as a 22-year-old!!!

Just the first incredible act in an incredible career.

Kyrie Irving won zip before LeBron got there, and he'd win zip again after LeBron leaves (if Kyrie stayed).

Yep, Kyrie made that big shot, but LeBron was superhuman in those three games, including one of the great blocked shots in the history of basketball.

I can't believe I actually have to argue for LeBron anymore. No-doubter top 5, probably top-2.

Nobody is arguing against Lebron.  You're just doing what every spiteful Cavs fan is doing right now and thats writing off Kyrie as some supporting cast bum. 

Talking about what he did before Lebron got there, when he was 19-21, after not even getting a full college season, on a team with Anthony Parker and Antawn Jamison's corpse.

Talking about "he hit a great shot BUT Lebron was unreal".  Thats great, but Kyrie went 30, 34, and 41 in the middle of that series and got them to those late games.  Thats not taking anything away from Lebron, but Kyrie was basically unstoppable 1v1 for large chunks of the series.

You called Kyrie a flea for gods sake.  This is the classic mantra of Lebron fans.  The need to denegrate everyone around him to pump his myth.  "Lebron's supporting cast is basically D-League" is the "Bo Ryan only recruits 1 stars and turns them into All Conference" nonsense of the NBA.

Lebron is the second best player of all time.  He's a freak of nature.  But like any fan of the NBA knows, these days you need at least 2 superstars to get it done consistently.  Just because Kyrie has come into his own with Lebron's help and wants to plan his future away from the dysfunction in Cleveland when Lebron leaves, that doesnt tarnish Lebron's career at all.  Good lord.

[MU82]

Nobody is arguing against Lebron.  You're just doing what every spiteful Cavs fan is doing right now and thats writing off Kyrie as some supporting cast bum. 

Talking about what he did before Lebron got there, when he was 19-21, after not even getting a full college season, on a team with Anthony Parker and Antawn Jamison's corpse.

Talking about "he hit a great shot BUT Lebron was unreal".  Thats great, but Kyrie went 30, 34, and 41 in the middle of that series and got them to those late games.  Thats not taking anything away from Lebron, but Kyrie was basically unstoppable 1v1 for large chunks of the series.

You called Kyrie a flea for gods sake.  This is the classic mantra of Lebron fans.  The need to denegrate everyone around him to pump his myth.  "Lebron's supporting cast is basically D-League" is the "Bo Ryan only recruits 1 stars and turns them into All Conference" nonsense of the NBA.

Lebron is the second best player of all time.  He's a freak of nature.  But like any fan of the NBA knows, these days you need at least 2 superstars to get it done consistently.  Just because Kyrie has come into his own with Lebron's help and wants to plan his future away from the dysfunction in Cleveland when Lebron leaves, that doesnt tarnish Lebron's career at all.  Good lord.

You're right. I didn't need to denigrate Kyrie to make my point about LeBron, and I shouldn't have done it.

[Jockey]

You called Kyrie a flea for gods sake.  This is the classic mantra of Lebron fans.  The need to denegrate everyone around him to pump his myth.  "Lebron's supporting cast is basically D-League" is the "Bo Ryan only recruits 1 stars and turns them into All Conference" nonsense of the NBA.

Just wondering. Could you cite one reference - just one - where someone said Bo only recruits 1-stars?

Your argument loses ALL credibility when you have to make things up to further it.

[MU82]

You're selling Pippen severely short. He's a top 50 player in history. In '93-94, the Bulls won 55 games without Jordan and were a phantom foul away from being in the Conf Finals (against an Indy team the Bulls went 4-1 against during the regular season).

Scottie was one of the great wingmen in NBA history but he was never able to be The Man for even a conference championship team.

Mentioning his near-misses sounds like the Ewing fans talking about how the Knicks "should have" beaten the Bulls. If they should have, they would have. If Scottie could have led the Bulls and Blazers to the Finals, he would have.

Hell, even Phil called the last shot in a playoff game not for Scottie but for Kukoc ... and Pippen reacted by quitting on the team.

That top-50 NBA team was selected in 1997. A lot of damn good players have come along since then, and I'm not sure Pippen would make the cut if the vote were taken again today. Off the top of my bald head: Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Duncan, Garnett, Nash - all no-brainers ahead of Pip. Dirk, probably. Pierce and Chris Paul, quite possibly. Maybe a few others. Now, of course Pip might still make it ahead of some others from his era and earlier who were chosen for that top-50 team, but there were more than a few folks back in '97 who thought he was a borderline choice to begin with. 

I do respect what Pippen brought to those Bulls, but I think I have a pretty good fix on where he fits on the Greatness Scale.

You're allowed to disagree. That's the whole idea of fun sports discussions!