NBA '17

[wadesworld]

One more reason I said Love was overrated when the Cavs traded for him - and I was one of the few who said that. Most here thought it was a great trade for Cleveland.

Being a star on a terrible team does not mean you are a top 10 or 20 player.

You'd rather have Andrew Wiggins than Kevin Love? Agree to disagree. Love was slightly overrated in Minnesota, but he has become underrated in Cleveland. The Warriors are a bad matchup for him. But they're a bad matchup for a lot of players. His roll changed from being "the man" to being a guy who spreads the floor and hits the boards. He does those things very well. The guy had 15 points and 21(!) rebounds last night.

[reinko]

You'd rather have Andrew Wiggins than Kevin Love? Agree to disagree. Love was slightly overrated in Minnesota, but he has become underrated in Cleveland. The Warriors are a bad matchup for him. But they're a bad matchup for a lot of players. His roll changed from being "the man" to being a guy who spreads the floor and hits the boards. He does those things very well. The guy had 15 points and 21(!) rebounds last night.

Don't forget Anthony Bennett and Thadeus Young!

[MU82]

One more reason I said Love was overrated when the Cavs traded for him - and I was one of the few who said that. Most here thought it was a great trade for Cleveland.

It was a great trade for Cleveland.

Next!

[GGGG]

Love had a double double each game of the Celtics series.  He is a good option for them when the game slows down and is more physical.  As wades said, GSW is just a poor match up for him.

[Jockey]

It was a great trade for Cleveland.

Next!

Maybe - but I expect Wiggins will be an All-star many times over. And his defense and speed would really help Cleveland in the current series.

My point though - and I didn't state it very well - was that Love was overrated in Minnesota. At the time of the trade, most here thought he was a top 10 player in the league. He was not.

[GGGG]

Some thoughts:

1. Golden State may be the best basketball team I have ever witnessed.  Definitely the best offensive team I have seen.  I don't really know what can be done to stop them.

2.  ESPN's pre-game coverage with Rose, Beadle and Billups is just so awful.  And I like each of them on their own.  It's like they are trying to be something they're not.

[GB Warrior]

Maybe - but I expect Wiggins will be an All-star many times over. And his defense and speed would really help Cleveland in the current series.

My point though - and I didn't state it very well - was that Love was overrated in Minnesota. At the time of the trade, most here thought he was a top 10 player in the league. He was not.

I mean, he's only 22, but he hasn't really shown a dramatic improvement in the 3 years in the league. Still has a bit of a volume shooter without an outside shot. Raw numbers are there, but I don't see an all-star just yet.

Even if he ends up being better than Love, I still make the trade. For Lebron and the Cavs, the question wasn't about who will be better in hindsight...it was who is better NOW. The Cavs got a championship out of it. Maybe the Wolves "win" the trade of a player they were going to lose anyway. I think both would say they're happy with it.

[MerrittsMustache]

I mean, he's only 22, but he hasn't really shown a dramatic improvement in the 3 years in the league. Still has a bit of a volume shooter without an outside shot. Raw numbers are there, but I don't see an all-star just yet.

Even if he ends up being better than Love, I still make the trade. For Lebron and the Cavs, the question wasn't about who will be better in hindsight...it was who is better NOW. The Cavs got a championship out of it. Maybe the Wolves "win" the trade of a player they were going to lose anyway. I think both would say they're happy with it.

Minnesota is better off with Wiggins. The Cavs have been better off with Love.

[MUBurrow]

No doubt each team ended up with the player most valuable to their current situation. Cavs with Love to win now, Min with Wiggins to build.

But that doesn't mean Cleveland couldn't have done better with that deal. When they traded for Love, he had one more year with Minnesota before he could opt out. So essentially, the assets traded were the #1 pick for 1 year of Love (Min and Phil also traded some players, picks and an exception to make the thing work).

Sure, there's the risk that Minnesota trades Love somewhere else, he likes it there, and then never signs with Cleveland. But LaMarcus Aldridge, Marc Gasol, Paul Milsap, DeAndre Jordan, Goran Dragic, DeMarre Carroll, and Wes were all UFAs or had player options that offseason, so there were comparable players (or combos of players for less than the max) to be had.

[GGGG]

No doubt each team ended up with the player most valuable to their current situation. Cavs with Love to win now, Min with Wiggins to build.

But that doesn't mean Cleveland couldn't have done better with that deal. When they traded for Love, he had one more year with Minnesota before he could opt out. So essentially, the assets traded were the #1 pick for 1 year of Love (Min and Phil also traded some players, picks and an exception to make the thing work).

Sure, there's the risk that Minnesota trades Love somewhere else, he likes it there, and then never signs with Cleveland. But LaMarcus Aldridge, Marc Gasol, Paul Milsap, DeAndre Jordan, Goran Dragic, DeMarre Carroll, and Wes were all UFAs or had player options that offseason, so there were comparable players (or combos of players for less than the max) to be had.

Didn't they have to trade for a player under contract to obtain his Bird rights?  Love wasn't going to be able to make the money elsewhere that he is currently making in Cleveland.

[MUBurrow]

Didn't they have to trade for a player under contract to obtain his Bird rights?  Love wasn't going to be able to make the money elsewhere that he is currently making in Cleveland.

Oh, yep that's totally right. Just glancing at Love's deal, its identical to Gasol's when he re-signed with Memphis that year, but the Spurs could only offer Aldridge $80M over 4. So Cle could essentially offer Love an extra year at $25M by trading for him rather than waiting him out. Certainly reduced Cleveland's leverage with Minnesota threatening to send Love (and his bird rights) somewhere else.

[GGGG]

Oh, yep that's totally right. Just glancing at Love's deal, its identical to Gasol's when he re-signed with Memphis that year, but the Spurs could only offer Aldridge $80M over 4. So Cle could essentially offer Love an extra year at $25M by trading for him rather than waiting him out. Certainly reduced Cleveland's leverage with Minnesota threatening to send Love (and his bird rights) somewhere else.

And Aldridge only went to SA because it was a hometown discount.

[MerrittsMustache]

In Love's 3 seasons in Cleveland, the Cavs have gone to 3 straight Finals and won a title. That's obviously not all because of Love, but it's tough to argue with those results.

[Jockey]

No doubt each team ended up with the player most valuable to their current situation. Cavs with Love to win now, Min with Wiggins to build.

But that doesn't mean Cleveland couldn't have done better with that deal. When they traded for Love, he had one more year with Minnesota before he could opt out. So essentially, the assets traded were the #1 pick for 1 year of Love (Min and Phil also traded some players, picks and an exception to make the thing work).

Sure, there's the risk that Minnesota trades Love somewhere else, he likes it there, and then never signs with Cleveland. But LaMarcus Aldridge, Marc Gasol, Paul Milsap, DeAndre Jordan, Goran Dragic, DeMarre Carroll, and Wes were all UFAs or had player options that offseason, so there were comparable players (or combos of players for less than the max) to be had.

You have hit on the point perfectly as to why I feel the Cavs would be better off with Wiggins. These things don't exist in a vacuum. If the had kept Wiggins, the Cavs would then have had the money to go after Aldridge, Milsap, Horford, etc. And I don't think there is any question that Milsap/Wiggins are better than Love/JR Smith.

The mitigating factor however, is that Love helped Cleveland win a title and in today's sports climate, rings are all that matters.


As to Sultan's point, GS is the best team I have ever seen in the NBA. The '87 Lakers, '86 Celtics, and '96 Bulls are all in the picture, but I think this team exceeds them simply because there is no way to stop them at one end of the floor and they are excellent at the other end.

[Jockey]

In Love's 3 seasons in Cleveland, the Cavs have gone to 3 straight Finals and won a title. That's obviously not all because of Love, but it's tough to argue with those results.

Apparently just being on the bench in street clothes was enough to get the Cavs to the finals 2 years ago since he didn't even play a single minute in the Conference Semi-finals, Conference Finals, or NBA Finals.

And if Lebron wasn't there.......  Love does not have the talent to lead a team to the playoffs.

Love had a total of 18 points in the Cavs 4 wins in the Finals last year - so I think his effect is being way overplayed.

Love is a very good NBA player - nowhere near the top 20 - but very good. But he is no Chris Bosh.

[GGGG]

You have hit on the point perfectly as to why I feel the Cavs would be better off with Wiggins. These things don't exist in a vacuum. If the had kept Wiggins, the Cavs would then have had the money to go after Aldridge, Milsap, Horford, etc. And I don't think there is any question that Milsap/Wiggins are better than Love/JR Smith.

But the Cavs likely would not have been able to sign either Alridge (went home to San Antonio to play with a competitive team) or Millsap (signed for max to stay in Atlanta).

For them to get "win now" talent, they had to trade young guys.  They weren't going to be able to hold onto Wiggins, hope he'd develop, and sign a UFA down the road.

[MerrittsMustache]

As to Sultan's point, GS is the best team I have ever seen in the NBA. The '87 Lakers, '86 Celtics, and '96 Bulls are all in the picture, but I think this team exceeds them simply because there is no way to stop them at one end of the floor and they are excellent at the other end.

The '96 Bulls were better than the current Warriors team. Back when teams were allowed to play physical D, the Bulls' ORat was 115.2 compared to the Warriors' 115.6 in a much more wide-open, offense-friendly league. Surprisingly, the Bulls' team 3P% was also better than the Warriors' (40.3% vs 38.3%) and defensively, it's no contest.

The game has obviously changed a lot in the last 20 years so it's tough to say who would win a head-to-head, but in their given eras, the Bulls were the better team. Don't get me wrong, the Warriors (assuming they win it all) are an all-time team but they're not better than Michael's Bulls.

[wadesworld]

In my lifetime, the gap between the Warriors and the 2nd best team in the NBA (Spurs) is bigger than any other season's best team in the NBA compared to 2nd best team in the NBA by a wiiiiiide margin.

[Pakuni]

The '96 Bulls were better than the current Warriors team. Back when teams were allowed to play physical D, the Bulls' ORat was 115.2 compared to the Warriors' 115.6 in a much more wide-open, offense-friendly league. Surprisingly, the Bulls' team 3P% was also better than the Warriors' (40.3% vs 38.3%) and defensively, it's no contest.

The game has obviously changed a lot in the last 20 years so it's tough to say who would win a head-to-head, but in their given eras, the Bulls were the better team. Don't get me wrong, the Warriors (assuming they win it all) are an all-time team but they're not better than Michael's Bulls.

I'm a Bulls homer, but this is correct. The Bulls were just as good offensively, better defensively and much better at rebounding. And they had a better bench.

[Pakuni]

But the Cavs likely would not have been able to sign either Alridge (went home to San Antonio to play with a competitive team) or Millsap (signed for max to stay in Atlanta).

Aldridge is from Dallas. Saying he went home to San Antonio is a bit like saying Dwyane Wade went home to play in Detroit.

[GGGG]

Aldridge is from Dallas. Saying he went home to San Antonio is a bit like saying Dwyane Wade went home to play in Detroit.

He specifically said that he was going home to Texas when he signed, but your point is well taken.

[BM1090]

I'm a Bulls homer, but this is correct. The Bulls were just as good offensively, better defensively and much better at rebounding. And they had a better bench.

The Bulls are better defensively because the rules allowed them to be and the league was terrible offensively at the time.

[Pakuni]

He specifically said that he was going home to Texas when he signed, but your point is well taken.

And unnecessarily snarky. Was too lazy to add a wink.

[Pakuni]

The Bulls are better defensively because the rules allowed them to be and the league was terrible offensively at the time.

Was the league terrible offensively at the time?

ORtg in 1996 = 107.6
ORtg in 2017 = 108.8

 

[wadesworld]

Was the league terrible offensively at the time?

ORtg in 1996 = 107.6
ORtg in 2017 = 108.8

The defense was overrated at the time.  Everyone wants to say nobody in today's NBA plays defense or teams are soft and nobody plays physically anymore.  If people think defenses don't play physically in today's NBA they just aren't watching.  Just because nowadays someone is ejected for elbowing someone in the head while in the 90s it was a common foul doesn't mean players don't play physically anymore.  The only differences now are ball and player movement around the court are better so teams are harder to defend and dirty plays are now penalized more strictly.