NBA '17

[wadesworld]

They all left $ on the table, not just Wade and Bosh.

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2010/07/10/lebron-james-dwyane-wade-chris-bosh-each-leave-15-million-on-the-table/

C'mon, take the hate glasses off Wades...they were all friends, and had the unique opportunity to make this happen, not sure about the "knock" that he somehow connived or tricked his buddies into taking less money...

That's what I meant. That 3 top 20 player in the NBA took less money than they could have in order to play together on the same team.

Who has LeBron prevented from winning a title in the way that MJ did?

[reinko]

That's what I meant. That 3 top 20 player in the NBA took less money than they could have in order to play together on the same team.

Who has LeBron prevented from winning a title in the way that MJ did?

Nobody yet, but perhaps after beating KD and Warriors this year he might start a trend 

[GGGG]

I did have to laugh at Tyrone Lue's comments about how LeBron is like MJ in that in the 90's players weren't able to get rings because MJ was winning them all and today it's the same with LeBron.  MJ essentially won 6 straight Titles when he was actually playing in the NBA.  LeBron has won 3 total, and 2 of those came when he convinced 2 other top 20 players in the NBA (at the time) to take less money so that they could all be on the same team.

This is really not good criticism of Lebron.

MJ never had to "team up" with other stars because Jerry Krause was a damn good GM who found players to run along side of him.  Scottie Pippen for example.  Toni Kukoc (before Europeans were regular) and Dennis Rodman (a pariah at the time) are the obvious, but also a ton of very good players that filled roles.

Lebron had no one in Cleveland.  Who was his best teammate in Cleveland the first go around?  In 2006-07, the year they lost in the NBA Finals, their second leading scorer was Larry Hughes.  In 2008-09, they won 66 games and their next best player was Mo Williams. 

There are very few exceptions to the rule that great players need other great players around them to win championships.  The fact that Lebron had to leave Cleveland because they were inept and finding someone else to join him isn't his fault.

[reinko]

This is really not good criticism of Lebron.

MJ never had to "team up" with other stars because Jerry Krause was a damn good GM who found players to run along side of him.  Scottie Pippen for example.  Toni Kukoc (before Europeans were regular) and Dennis Rodman (a pariah at the time) are the obvious, but also a ton of very good players that filled roles.

Lebron had no one in Cleveland.  Who was his best teammate in Cleveland the first go around?  In 2006-07, the year they lost in the NBA Finals, their second leading scorer was Larry Hughes.  In 2008-09, they won 66 games and their next best player was Mo Williams. 

There are very few exceptions to the rule that great players need other great players around them to win championships.  The fact that Lebron had to leave Cleveland because they were inept and finding someone else to join him isn't his fault.

I will not sit back and let you besmirch the likes of these NBA all-timers.

~Eric Snow
~Zlydrunus Igalskis
~Drew Gooden
~Damon Jones
~Anderson Varejo
~Boobie Gibson
~Delonte West
~Wally Sczerbiak
~JJ Hickson

[GGGG]

I will not sit back and let you besmirch the likes of these NBA all-timers.

~Eric Snow
~Zlydrunus Igalskis
~Drew Gooden
~Damon Jones
~Anderson Varejo
~Boobie Gibson
~Delonte West
~Wally Sczerbiak
~JJ Hickson

Think about this.  MJ leaves the Bulls, they win 55 games and still advance to the Eastern Conference semis only to lose on a screw job to the Knicks.

Lebron leaves the Cavs and they win 19 games.

[MU82]

I will not sit back and let you besmirch the likes of these NBA all-timers.

~Eric Snow
~Zlydrunus Igalskis
~Drew Gooden
~Damon Jones
~Anderson Varejo
~Boobie Gibson
~Delonte West
~Wally Sczerbiak
~JJ Hickson

Wow. I knew that team was bad, but this really drives home the point.

A very young LeBron, who still was learning how to be great and how to lead, carried this team to the NBA Finals. Really, perhaps one of the great performances ever, when you look at this.

LeBron gets zero "blame" for going to Miami to win with two star teammates and some darn good role players, too. Some might even consider it a sacrifice in some ways.

Then to go back to Cleveland and win again ... really quite special.

I don't know how anybody could objectively say he's better than MJ, but yes, he has prevented some great players from winning - including a second title for Steph & Co.!

[cheebs09]

How much blame does "GM LeBron" get for the issues in Cleveland the first time around? I'm actually a fan of LeBron, but I do remember some of the criticism for how bad the cast was fell on LeBron.

Although, my memory could be skewed by the Blatt situation and Wiggins/Love trade.

[StillAWarrior]

How much blame does "GM LeBron" get for the issues in Cleveland the first time around? I'm actually a fan of LeBron, but I do remember some of the criticism for how bad the cast was fell on LeBron.

I'm going to go with very, very little.

And if we're going to hold a player's ineptitude as a GM against him in the GOAT player debate, I'm thinking LeBron just pulled ahead of MJ.   

[MU82]

I'm going to go with very, very little.

And if we're going to hold a player's ineptitude as a GM against him in the GOAT player debate, I'm thinking LeBron just pulled ahead of MJ.   

Indeed, MJ was an infamously bad "GM" when he publicly lobbied for players or criticized Krause's moves. Part of that was because he wanted to surround himself with his buddies, preferring Oakley to Cartwright, for example.

[StillAWarrior]

Indeed, MJ was an infamously bad "GM" when he publicly lobbied for players or criticized Krause's moves. Part of that was because he wanted to surround himself with his buddies, preferring Oakley to Cartwright, for example.

Actually, I was thinking more of his Kwame Brown time as a GM (and later years), than his Oakley/Cartwright time as a "GM."

/Not sure what title he actually held during those times.

[MU82]

Actually, I was thinking more of his Kwame Brown time as a GM (and later years), than his Oakley/Cartwright time as a "GM."

/Not sure what title he actually held during those times.

Yeah ... Kwame Brown. 2001 was one heck of a draft. Brown #1, Curry #4, Diop #8, Kedrick Brown #11, Steven Hunter #15 on one end of the spectrum ... Pau #3, Joe Johnson #10, Jefferson #13, Randolph #19, all-time steal Tony Parker #28 on the other end of the spectrum.

A few years later, when MJ took over as being the guy in charge in Charlotte, he grabbed Adam Morrison #3!

[wadesworld]

Markus's shooting form and movement around the court reminds me a lot of how Patty Mills is playing this series.

[Jockey]

Markus's shooting form and movement around the court reminds me a lot of how Patty Mills is playing this series.

You could be right, but Patty is so much stronger physically than Markus. I'n guessing about 20 pounds worth. Hopefully Markus will get stronger as the years go on.

[DegenerateDish]

Think about this.  MJ leaves the Bulls, they win 55 games and still advance to the Eastern Conference semis only to lose on a screw job to the Knicks.

Lebron leaves the Cavs and they win 19 games.

I just re-watched the Hollins call, and read a JA Andande retrospective on that call.

In today's NBA, they'd probably call it (?), but back in the mid 90's, no one got that call. What's amazing about that play is how far and how fast Pippen closes out on Davis. Davis is WIDE open when he catches the ball.

That was a hell of a series.

[GGGG]

I just re-watched the Hollins call, and read a JA Andande retrospective on that call.

In today's NBA, they'd probably call it (?), but back in the mid 90's, no one got that call. What's amazing about that play is how far and how fast Pippen closes out on Davis. Davis is WIDE open when he catches the ball.

That was a hell of a series.

Yeah I am probably being biased about that.  But that series was fantastic.  It had the epic Pippen dunk over Ewing, and the last second Kukoc shot after Pippen removed himself from that game.

And then the conference finals included the Reggie Miller choke-game.

[MU82]

It had the epic Pippen dunk over Ewing, and the last second Kukoc shot after Pippen removed himself from that game.

There were many who thought Pippen would never live down his infamous 1.8-second quit job. That it is barely a footnote to his career, Pippen should thank Phil Jackson every day for the rest of his life. Some coaches would have made it the overriding issue, and it would have lingered for years let alone the rest of a playoff series. But Jackson handled it as well as it possibly could have been handled, both publicly and privately. Reinsdorf and Krause deserve credit for not overreacting, either. For those who weren't there, it was a HUGE media story (as it should have been).

[GGGG]

There were many who thought Pippen would never live down his infamous 1.8-second quit job. That it is barely a footnote to his career, Pippen should thank Phil Jackson every day for the rest of his life. Some coaches would have made it the overriding issue, and it would have lingered for years let alone the rest of a playoff series. But Jackson handled it as well as it possibly could have been handled, both publicly and privately. Reinsdorf and Krause deserve credit for not overreacting, either. For those who weren't there, it was a HUGE media story (as it should have been).

Yes.  The Kukoc game winner was in Game 3.  The Pippen dunk was in Game 6.

And this just caused me to watch that dunk again.  Everything about that was such vintage Bulls/Knicks.  The dunk...the step over...telling Spike Lee to "sit your ass down."  The 90s had some ugly basketball, but it was often compelling ugly basketball.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srl2Bwh6A3I

And I forgot that the questionable call was Game 5...not Game 7.

[DegenerateDish]

Yes.  The Kukoc game winner was in Game 3.  The Pippen dunk was in Game 6.

And this just caused me to watch that dunk again.  Everything about that was such vintage Bulls/Knicks.  The dunk...the step over...telling Spike Lee to "sit your ass down."  The 90s had some ugly basketball, but it was often compelling ugly basketball.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srl2Bwh6A3I

And I forgot that the questionable call was Game 5...not Game 7.

I had forgotten that Game 6 was the last game ever at Chicago Stadium. So much happened in that series...I'm kinda glad Twitter and Hot Takes weren't around back then, it makes me appreciate that series even more looking back on it.

[MerrittsMustache]

Yes.  The Kukoc game winner was in Game 3.  The Pippen dunk was in Game 6.

And this just caused me to watch that dunk again.  Everything about that was such vintage Bulls/Knicks.  The dunk...the step over...telling Spike Lee to "sit your ass down."  The 90s had some ugly basketball, but it was often compelling ugly basketball.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srl2Bwh6A3I

And I forgot that the questionable call was Game 5...not Game 7.

How about that pass from Pete Meyers?

I'd watch an ugly 90s Bulls-Knicks (or Pacers or Heat) playoff game over any NBA playoff game today.

[MerrittsMustache]

The Lakers had a 53% chance of losing both their 2017 and 2019 1st Round picks last night. Fortunately, the lottery gods smiled on them and they moved up to grab the #2 pick this season and they also get to keep their 2019 pick. How fortunate for them.

[Jockey]

The Lakers had a 53% chance of losing both their 2017 and 2019 1st Round picks last night. Fortunately, the lottery gods smiled on them and they moved up to grab the #2 pick this season and they also get to keep their 2019 pick. How fortunate for them.

Everything is a conspiracy.

[MU82]

I had forgotten that Game 6 was the last game ever at Chicago Stadium.

Yes, and upon retiring the first time, Michael said he would never play another home game in Chicago except at the Stadium.

One of many not-quite-truths from MJ, which is why nobody with a brain takes seriously his statement that he only would have stayed with the Bulls had Phil remained coach. I don't know much, but I know for a fact that wasn't true.

[MU82]

You know, this LeBron kid has a chance to be pretty good in a few years.

[Plaque Lives Matter!]

You know, this LeBron kid has a chance to be pretty good in a few years.

Isaiah Thomas trying to block his drive to the lane was pure comedy.

[Jockey]

You know, this LeBron kid has a chance to be pretty good in a few years.

I know we have had discussions here about what makes a great coach - specifically whether Phil Jackson was a great coach or not. I think the NBA is one sport where it is very hard to judge a coach's greatness. If you don't have an all-time great, you aren't gonna win a title. Everyone knew before the season started that GS and Cleveland would be playing for the title.

So, do you think it makes a difference in Lebron's place in history that he never had the "opportunity" to play for a "great coach, but still has multiple rings?

I still have him rated #3 behind MJ and Kareem, but a couple more championships could move him to #1. While Love and Irving are nice players, neither comes anywhere close to what Scottie was.