NBA '17

[StillAWarrior]

its possible to both acknowledge that draymond green hit lebron in the dicknballs, and still not like lebron. they aren't mutually exclusive positions.

This.

It's funny how we got here.  Pretty much everyone on this board seems to agree that MJ is the greatest ever.  Then, there is a group of us who think LBJ is a close second, and a group that think LBJ is not quite at that level, but definitely one of the greatest ever.  This leads to what I consider an interesting debate comparing the strength of the MJ-era Bulls with the strength of LBJ's teams; the strength of their opponents; etc.  Anyone can marshal a number of facts in support of their argument, but it's unavoidable to run across countless subjective opinions (e.g., were the 2013 Spurs "better than" the 1996 Sonics) on the way to the undeniably subjective opinion on where LBJ ranks.

Somehow, from that, we get into arguing whether Green intentionally hit LBJ in the balls (he did) and whether LBJ would have gotten a flagrant for the same action (he wouldn't have).

I blame Wades for tainting the MJ vs. LBJ debate with a healthy dose of "LBJ conspiracy" theories.   

[rocket surgeon]

green, although admittedly talented, just isn't a very smart player.  he's putting his needs(to assert himself, etc) ahead of the team's.  they/he needs to address his anger management or self esteem issues or whatever.  ironically, it was when the warriors were down by 10/12 in the first quarter, their comeback was more efficient when kerr sat him down. 

[wadesworld]

green, although admittedly talented, just isn't a very smart player.  he's putting his needs(to assert himself, etc) ahead of the team's.  they/he needs to address his anger management or self esteem issues or whatever.  ironically, it was when the warriors were down by 10/12 in the first quarter, their comeback was more efficient when kerr sat him down.

Couldn't disagree more, and I think if you asked anyone that is part of the Warriors organization they wouldn't be able to disagree with you more either.

[wadesworld]

Guys have a much different reaction to getting hit in the nuts than LBJ.  See: Iggy's reaction.

Unless there's nothing there?

[StillAWarrior]

Couldn't disagree more, and I think if you asked anyone that is part of the Warriors organization they wouldn't be able to disagree with you more either.

For the record, I can't stand Green,* and I also couldn't disagree more.  In my opinion, it would be hard to overstate Green's value to the Warriors.

*I'd love him if he was on the Cavs, though.  Funny how that works. 

[wadesworld]

For the record, I can't stand Green,* and I also couldn't disagree more.  In my opinion, it would be hard to overstate Green's value to the Warriors.

*I'd love him if he was on the Cavs, though.  Funny how that works.

I neither hate nor love Green, but I appreciate what he brings to the Warriors.  I think he's a clown, but I also think most of it is calculated.  He's nowhere near my favorite Warrior, and if he was on the Bucks he would be nowhere near my favorite Buck.  But the Bucks and any team int he NBA would be a heck of a lot better with Green or someone like him.

I think he's one of the smartest players in the NBA, I think he probably gets more out of himself than maybe anybody in the NBA, and I think any team in the world would happily take him in a heartbeat.  Great at nothing offensively but solid at everything and a guy who can guard 1-5 without any problem and will never get outworked.  As unselfish as they come.

He's the motivator of all motivators for the Warriors.  He allows Kerr to maintain a level composure while having someone who can get on Kerr's players without losing their trust.

[StillAWarrior]

I neither hate nor love Green, but I appreciate what he brings to the Warriors.  I think he's a clown, but I also think most of it is calculated.  He's nowhere near my favorite Warrior, and if he was on the Bucks he would be nowhere near my favorite Buck.  But the Bucks and any team int he NBA would be a heck of a lot better with Green or someone like him.

I think he's one of the smartest players in the NBA, I think he probably gets more out of himself than maybe anybody in the NBA, and I think any team in the world would happily take him in a heartbeat.  Great at nothing offensively but solid at everything and a guy who can guard 1-5 without any problem and will never get outworked.  As unselfish as they come.

He's the motivator of all motivators for the Warriors.  He allows Kerr to maintain a level composure while having someone who can get on Kerr's players without losing their trust.

Aside from the first few words, I agree wholeheartedly with all of this.  And I freely acknowledge that my disdain for Green stems pretty much entirely from the fact that, as a Cavs fan, he's been driving me crazy in the Finals for the last four years.

[Dr. Blackheart]

LeBron as a GM has to be taken into the equation.  One has to ask the question versus Michael the player who won all his championships with two sets of staid rosters.

Would the Cavs be in a better place if the roster he traded mid-season was still in place?  His penchant for demanding roster changes detracts from his claim for GOAT as it prevents the supporting cast from growing into their roles.

[MU82]

Jordan was famous for demanding trades. Krause/Reinsdorf simply didn't listen to him. And thank goodness for the Bulls ... because MJ's ideas as a player were mostly stupid and he then proved to be a horrible GM.

Today's NBA is different, though. The NBA is more of a players' league than ever. Players arrange their own dynasties. Players are mostly in charge.

Even a place like San Antonio, where Popovich rules, a player pretty much ruined their season this year. They weren't going to win the West anyway, but Kawhi made sure they were going to suck.

[Dr. Blackheart]

A Cavs' vet thinks they'd be up 3-0 if Kyrie was still around...

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/cavaliers-veteran-knocks-kyrie-irving-trade-wed-3-0-kyrie-still-220759118.html

[wadesworld]

A Cavs' vet thinks they'd be up 3-0 if Kyrie was still around...

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/cavaliers-veteran-knocks-kyrie-irving-trade-wed-3-0-kyrie-still-220759118.html

Yeah, they almost went up 3-0 on the Warriors with Kyrie last year... 🤔

[JWags85]

A Cavs' vet thinks they'd be up 3-0 if Kyrie was still around...

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/cavaliers-veteran-knocks-kyrie-irving-trade-wed-3-0-kyrie-still-220759118.html

Gotta be Kendrick Perkins.

[MerrittsMustache]

A Cavs' vet thinks they'd be up 3-0 if Kyrie was still around...

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/cavaliers-veteran-knocks-kyrie-irving-trade-wed-3-0-kyrie-still-220759118.html

Don't you have to factor in Kyrie's injury or would he be healthy with Cleveland? 


By the way, how awful was that Kyrie deal for Cleveland?

[StillAWarrior]

A Cavs' vet thinks they'd be up 3-0 if Kyrie was still around...

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/cavaliers-veteran-knocks-kyrie-irving-trade-wed-3-0-kyrie-still-220759118.html

Just a silly statement.  Aside from ignoring the fact that the Cavs were down 0-3 at this point last year even with Kyrie, it's just impossible to say.  I like Kyrie.  A lot.  I think that with a happy Kyrie on the team, the Cavs would be better.  But it's hard to say how an unhappy Kyrie would have affected the season.  And it's also hard to know if he would have made good on his threat to have knee surgery and miss the season.  If that had happened, there would be no Hill, Nance or Hood along with no Kyrie. 

Kyrie wanted out of Cleveland really, really badly for reasons that I'm sure a few people on this board will be eager to explain...in great detail.  And anyone who wants to make predictions about how the Cavs would be doing right now with him on the team is just guessing.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Great point.

Paxson scored 6 points in that game. Michael scored 55. The only 3 Bulls points scored in the 4th quarter by somebody not named Jordan came on Paxson's winning 3. You don't think Paxson was wide open maybe, just maybe, because the Suns were focusing on #23?

Same with Kerr's series winner in 1997. During the Grant Park celebration after that series, Kerr took the stage and gave a hilarious riff on the play:

“We called timeout with 25 seconds to go, went into the huddle, Phil told Michael ‘Michael I want you to take the last shot.’ And Michael said ‘Phil I don’t feel real comfortable in these situations, so maybe we ought to go in another direction.'”

FYI, Buechler was not on the Bulls in 1992 when they beat Portland. You're thinking of Bob Hansen, a little-used player who sparked the comeback. All those white guys look alike! MJ was on the bench as the team rallied -- with the ball in HoFer Pippen's hands most of the time, so it's not as if everyone on the court was a stiff. The Bulls still trailed when Jordan got back in the game, he took over as usual, and the rest was history.

So, not giving all the credit to Jordan, just the amount he deserves. Which is most. Maybe MJ doesn't win one or two or even three titles without great work by his supporting cast, but the Bulls win zero titles without the GOAT. And that's what always pissed off Jerry Krause, because MJ was the one guy he didn't acquire, and MJ always let him know it.

Great history here. Stuff I've never heard. That Kerr quote is hilarious. I've never read your sportswriting but would be interested to see some of your greatest hits. Any pieces you feel particularly fond of that you would want to share?

I also don't think the 2011 Finals loss is "plastered" on LeBron's resume. Just about the only time it is brought up is when frustrated LeBron-haters, desperate to take shots at him, bring it up. It's like desperate Michael-haters -- and they're out there -- bringing up his loss to Orlando after his first comeback or his less-than-successful tenure with the Wizards.

I disagree. It is often repeated "if LeBron's teammates didn't suck, he'd have 6 championships by now too." (I'm not saying you say this)

Well, Wade played as well as possible. Almost equaled his 2006 finals performance. But LeBron was so bad that it didn't matter. He got all the superstar "help" anyone could possibly want, and he didn't win. Why ignore that? It's not just a given that he'll win a championship if you stick a few all-stars (one of whom is a top 25 all-time great playing at peak performance) on his team.

Superb point. Curry is a two-time MVP and a former Finals MVP and is considered a top-5 player in the world. And yet he is allowed to suck occasionally because he is lucky enough to have a teammate who is arguably the second-best player on the planet.

Not to pick nits but Curry has never won finals MVP (and likely will not this year either)

[MUBurrow]

Don't you have to factor in Kyrie's injury or would he be healthy with Cleveland? 

By the way, how awful was that Kyrie deal for Cleveland?

Yeah, the Kyrie deal really turned out pretty terribly for Cleveland. Although with the pressure Kyrie was putting on them, I'm not sure they could have done much better. That Nets pick had a lot of upside at the time, Brooklyn just ended up winning too many meaningless games and pushed them out of the upper tier of the lottery.

The real whiff in that deal was just trying to plug an injured, expiring contract IT in for Kyrie. While the expiring ended up having a little value at the deadline, Cleveland would have been better off dealing Kyrie for as much promising talent/draft capital as they could, regardless of position, and tried to make it work. (I also think that's the way to approach 99/100 transactions in the NBA).  They still could have dealt for Hill or another replacement-level PG either at the time or during the season.

[StillAWarrior]

I disagree. It is often repeated "if LeBron's teammates didn't suck, he'd have 6 championships by now too." (I'm not saying you say this)

Never, in my entire life have I heard a single person say this.  Not even once.

The 2007 Cavs team was not very good.  I'm not sure that is subject to much debate.  But even if he'd had a better team, that San Antonio team was a strong opponent.  People do often say that LBJ took the easy way out when he went to Miami to play with Wade and Bosh.  I don't recall hearing people saying that those Heat teams sucked.  And, as been discussed quite a bit, LBJ rightfully takes his fair share of the blame for the 2011 loss.  And, I haven't heard too many people saying either that the 2015 and 2017 Cavs sucked.  Those were really talented teams that might well have won if they hadn't been playing historically good Golden State teams.  This year's team is good, but not great.

I think you vastly overstate how LBJ fans fault LeBron's teammates.  Of his nine  Finals appearances, I'd say that on seven occasions he was on very strong teams.  I honestly think most people would agree with that.  Of those, he won three.  Arguably, he twice lost to inferior teams with Miami, and it's fair to saddle him with the super-star's share of the blame for those.  Since his return to Cleveland he's had to face Golden State four times.  Aside from this year, I can't recall anyone saying that those teams sucked, or that LBJ would have won all those if he had better teammates.  I do hear people (like me) say that he might have won in 2015 if Love and Kyrie wouldn't have gotten injured, but that's entirely different.

Realistically, given who he played with and how his opponents were (and factoring in injuries), I think LBJ probably should have four or maybe five championships right now.  And aside from 2007, I wouldn't blame any of the Finals losses on a lack of talent surrounding LBJ.  The single largest factor for LBJ's poor finals record is that Golden State is f'ing incredible.

[GB Warrior]

I think the dawn of super teams (which, to be fair, he contributed to) leads us to look back on his past teams and say "wow, that's a pile of garbage". But he certainly did not have superstars next to him, unless you count the remnants of Shaq. Players like Ilgauskas were very good players on decent enough teams. This Cavs team is probably better than those teams. Times have changed, though, and Lebron is absolutely carrying the Cavs. Warriors are just that good.

[GGGG]

Here's the thing, Cleveland had Kyrie under contract both this year AND next year.  I was skeptical at the time because I just didn't think Kyrie had any leverage.  It seemed like they were both trying to build for the future AND win now, and that doesn't really work.

And it turned out to be worse because Thomas was simply not an effective player and the pick from Brooklyn lost a lot of value.

I think keeping Kyrie, even if LBJ left, would have been the better move.  You can trade him (and Love) for value next year just as easy.

[MUBurrow]

Here's the thing, Cleveland had Kyrie under contract both this year AND next year.  I was skeptical at the time because I just didn't think Kyrie had any leverage.  It seemed like they were both trying to build for the future AND win now, and that doesn't really work.

And it turned out to be worse because Thomas was simply not an effective player and the pick from Brooklyn lost a lot of value.

I think keeping Kyrie, even if LBJ left, would have been the better move.  You can trade him (and Love) for value next year just as easy.

I think this makes sense, and will bear out if LBJ leaves this offseason (looking pretty likely, though destination is still unclear).  I am sympathetic to Cle's position at the time, though, in that I think they were afraid of intimating to LBJ that they "chose Kyrie" over him, and would be scapegoated for pushing LBJ out the door.

[JWags85]

Never, in my entire life have I heard a single person say this.  Not even once.

Verbatim, maybe not.  I absolutely have friends, who are fairly knowledgeable and informed basketball fans, who think that.  But certainly in the online blogging space and related commentary, there is the sentiment that the only thing that prevents Lebron from Jordan-levels of titles is his supporting cast.  AKA all his Cavs teams in the finals have been lacking.  The 2011 Miami team gets glossed over in those examples and then becomes a primary touchstone for the "anti-LBJ" set.

Related, I like the sentiment coming out, now that the finals look set, that Lebron may stay cause management "will give him anything he wants and work with him".  Seriously, Ive had 2-3 diff people tell me that.  The Cavs contract situation is a DISASTER and I dont know who they can trade to alleviate it cause its gonna be hard to move them.  I don't think Collin Sexton and whoever you can get for Jordan Clarkson is gonna tempt him to stay.  But I do think he'll need to take a paycut if he wants another ring.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Never, in my entire life have I heard a single person say this.  Not even once.

Odd. I hear it, or some variation thereof, all the time from friends, family, co-workers, and social media.

[StillAWarrior]

But certainly in the online blogging space and related commentary, there is the sentiment that the only thing that prevents Lebron from Jordan-levels of titles is his supporting cast.

I guess it's an issue of semantics.  Sure, if he had a better supporting cast, he'd have more championships.  But that's a far cry from saying that his teammates suck.  He's now faced a historically great team four times in a row.  If he'd had better teammates, he might have won more.  But I honestly don't recall ever hearing anyone say that LBJ's teammates in 2015 and 2017 sucked (or 2011 and 2014, for that matter).

[StillAWarrior]

Odd. I hear it, or some variation thereof, all the time from friends, family, co-workers, and social media.

I have never heard anyone say the 2015 and 2017 Cavs rosters sucked.  Not once.  Those were extremely talented rosters.  If, by "some variation thereof" you mean people saying that after Irving and Love got injured the 2015 Cavs roster sucked...well, I'll admit to saying that.  And I honestly don't recall people saying that the 2011 and 2014 Heat rosters sucked.

Edited to add two other things:  1)  Saying that LBJ's rosters were not up to the task of beating Golden State is not the same as saying that his teammates sucked; and 2) Pointing out that MJ had great surrounding talent -- maybe even better than LBJ (although that's a fair debate) -- is not the same as saying that LBJ's teammates sucked.

[forgetful]

Never, in my entire life have I heard a single person say this.  Not even once.

In this very thread.  And it is a common mantra on here.

James having the flexibility of actually having players that can hit shots and two HOFers next to him would have gone 6-0.

The same poster claims that neither the Cavs teams or the Heat teams have HOFers next to him.

And regarding the 2015 team, I've been eviscerated on here in the past for pointing out that Love came to Cleveland as an MVP caliber player (finished 6th in 2012 and 11th in 2014), and that Kyrie is an MVP caliber pg (will likely finish 5th or 6th in MVP voting this year).  The arguments were that Love only racked up stats because he played on a crappy team; and that Kyrie looked good because of Lebron.

You may not have seen the posts here, but they are reasonably common.