Wojo vs. KO

[MU82]

KO was brought up as something of a savior for the program in the "Perspective on Rebuilding" thread. Goose, a frequent critic of Wojo, called KO's rebuild of the program "remarkable."

Here in a stand-alone thread, let's take a quick look at some facts, shall we?

Kevin O'Neill arrived for the 1989-90 season after Bob Dukiet went 13-15 the previous year. KO inherited Tony Smith, an outstanding player who would go on to play a decade-plus in the NBA. I think most would agree that Smith was much, much better than any player Wojo inherited from Buzz. In total, 4 of the top 5 scorers from Dukiet's last team were back to play for KO: Smith, Powell, Baldwin and Anglavar. KO went 15-14 with that team. I'm guessing that if Scoop had existed back then, that would have been considered a failure (or at best a mediocrity), although many would have argued that it's unfair to judge a first-year coach.

Wojo, meanwhile, arrived following a season in which Buzz's final team underperformed significantly. The top two scorers from that team graduated. The top returning scorers were Mayo, Burton and Derrick. It was a trainwreck waiting to happen ... and it did, with a 13-19 record. Most Scoopers knew that and gave Wojo a pass, although there were some who found a way to argue that Wojo hadn't used the "talent" properly.

In 1990-91, with Powell and Anglavar still playing, KO brought in a superb freshman class that included Key, McIlvaine and Logterman. A great transfer, Ron Curry, also became eligible. Even if most of the talent was in its first year, nobody would dispute that team had talent. KO went 11-18 with that group. Scoop, had it existed, would have not been kind. I'm guessing many would have already concluded that he wasn't the right man for the job.

Wojo also brought in significant talent for his second season, including the school's first Mickey D boy in decades. MU improved to 20-13 and doubled its conference win total. The team also won a lot of close games, which usually is a sign of at least decent coaching; Wojo rarely was given credit for those, but he was blamed for the close losses that kept the team out of the tourney.

In KO's Year 3, with a ton of now-veteran talent and with him being more experienced himself, KO only managed to go 16-13. He got the team to the NIT, winning one and losing one. I think most will agree that CUSA back then was not as good as the Big East now and that getting in the NIT then was waaaay easier for a "name school" than it is now. I also think most will agree that a significant number of Scoopers would have concluded, based upon that record, that KO was not the long-term answer.

Wojo is in Year 3 now. He has some pretty nice pieces, though it's hard to say this group is better than the Key-McIlvaine-Curry-Logterman-Miller crew that KO coached to 16-13 in 1991-92. It's too early to say what Wojo will  accomplish this season, but I'd be willing to bet it will be better than the .551 winning percentage KO had in Year 3.

In Year 4, KO finally won 20 games and got MU back to the NCAAs. We lost in the first round. Those who had defended KO all along would have said he really did turn around the program. Detractors - and there would have been many on Scoop - would have said, "We'll see."

Finally, in Year 5, KO got us to the Sweet 16 with one of the great upset victories in MU history. It was a fine team, led by the three seniors KO had brought in three years earlier, as well as junior star Tony Miller.

Cashing in on finally being successful, KO immediately bolted for Tennessee. He has not distinguished himself as either a college coach or pro coach since - and "not distinguished himself" is probably being far too kind.

Again, I know KO brought energy to a moribund program. And sure, it's fun to have a coach with that kind of personality.

But to suggest that KO inherited a worse situation than Wojo - I mean, Tony Smith alone made KO's situation significantly better - and that KO turned the program around super-fast compared to some kind of looming disaster that Wojo is presiding over ... I just don't see how facts support that narrative at all.

Don't get me wrong. I appreciate what KO did. Loved the Sweet 16 team.

I also appreciated what Crean and Williams did here.

And I think all of us will come to appreciate Wojo. Obviously, that is just my opinion at this point. "We'll see" is a fair assessment. "He doesn't have what it takes and we're doomed ... unlike the savior KO" doesn't seem quite as fair.

[Spotcheck Billy]

In KO's Year 3, with a ton of now-veteran talent and with him being more experienced himself, KO only managed to go 16-13. He got the team to the NIT, winning one and losing one. I think most will agree that CUSA back then was not as good as the Big East now and that getting in the NIT then was waaaay easier for a "name school" than it is now. I also think most will agree that a significant number of Scoopers would have concluded, based upon that record, that KO was not the long-term answer.

.

Great post, and the NIT did not have the automatic invites that it does now

[brewcity77]

+1,000

Great post with fair perspective. I think the differences are that Dukiet was viewed as a trainwreck while Buzz was viewed as a success. However, the reality is that Dukiet left the program in better shape than Buzz did. As good as Buzz was during his S16/S16/E8 run, his back-to-back empty recruiting classes of 2011 and 2012 savaged the program for any replacement. That's why I ask what more Wojo should have done by now.

Wojo inherited a program with more recent success and name cachet, but less on-court talent, while KO got the talent but the name had fallen off after three straight tournaments with our name not being called.

[Goose]

MU 82

You are flat out wrong on saying I am frequent critic of Wojo and would appreciate it if you refrained from saying that. As for KO and what he inherited, if you do not realize the state of the program at that time and the horrible place it was in, you flat out know nothing about college basketball. KO saved a program that was on life support and that is a fact.

[brewcity77]

Goose, I don't think there can be any real arguing the talent discrepancy, however. There were plenty of bigger off-court issues, and survival by KO is to be lauded, but no matter what people want to say about high school rankings, Wojo took over a team that had virtually no chance to win. Was there some talent? Sure, but none of the experienced players had much talent, while none of the talented players had much experience.

[NotAnAlum]

In KO's Year 3, with a ton of now-veteran talent and with him being more experienced himself, KO only managed to go 16-13. He got the team to the NIT, winning one and losing one. I think most will agree that CUSA back then was not as good as the Big East now and that getting in the NIT then was waaaay easier for a "name school" than it is now. I also think most will agree that a significant number of Scoopers would have concluded, based upon that record, that KO was not the long-term answer.

I agree with the premise of this post.  However this part is inaccurate.  MU did not go to the NIT in this year even though it was easier to get in than it is now.  They played in the C-USA tournament but missed the post season entirely.

[Goose]

MU82

Please do a quick check on attendance pre KO and post KO, quality of non-conference schedule and upgrades made to the program during his tenure. There are plenty of things to factor in aside from win/loss record. There was a poll on here last month on what NC record would be some folks thought 1-4 or 0-5 and we played one ranked team at home.

[mu03eng]

I think the key is to look at it from a skill set standpoint. What skill sets were they good at and what we they bad at. Then what skill sets were required at that point in time.

Let's say a D1 coach uses the following skill sets to various degrees (and there is no right level/amount of proficiency at these skill sets):
-Talent Evaluation and Management (recruiting, player development, etc)
-In-game tactician (game strategy, player usage, game management, etc)
-Game Preparation (game planning, offensive and defensive philosophy, etc)
-Marketing (program awareness, gladhanding donors, face of the program, etc)
-CEO functions (staff management, managing up the organization, etc)
-Intangibles (we could also call this the "McGuire skill set")

The jury is out on Wojo for game prep and in-game tactician, while I think KO is good to great at that. Whereas I think, contrary to MUNY's harping, I think Wojo's intangibles and Talent Evaluation skils are much better than KO (and way better than Dukiet).

KO didn't necessarily have a talent problem, he had a development and usage issue. Wojo had a significant talent problem. Different skill sets and importance.

Thoughts?

[Goose]

mu03eng

For the record, as much as I appreciated KO's work here, I thought he was a below average game coach or ball mind when he was here. His style of play was hard to watch and coaching games was far from his strength, IMO.

[Eldon]

Goose, I don't think there can be any real arguing the talent discrepancy, however. There were plenty of bigger off-court issues, and survival by KO is to be lauded, but no matter what people want to say about high school rankings, Wojo took over a team that had virtually no chance to win. Was there some talent? Sure, but none of the experienced players had much talent, while none of the talented players had much experience.

Who needs experience when you have (had) this

[StillWarriors]

MU 82

You are flat out wrong on saying I am frequent critic of Wojo and would appreciate it if you refrained from saying that. As for KO and what he inherited, if you do not realize the state of the program at that time and the horrible place it was in, you flat out know nothing about college basketball. KO saved a program that was on life support and that is a fact.

This is absolutely true in terms of the state of the program being a night and day difference in terms of what KO inherited and Wojo. I am encouraged by what Wojo is doing, though not without some frustration over the defensive lapses. That said, aside from Tony Smith, that first KO team was extremely limited in talent. I recall KO telling me the next year that people completely took for granted that Smith did everything for that team...guarded the best player, brought the ball up, scored, assists, played 39 mins/game etc.... This came up when Logterman was forced to play point the following year and we were turning the ball over 30 plus times a game to start the season. KO and that class, however, with Damon Key, Mac and transfer Curry brought at least some level of hope and credibility to the program that had been completely absent under Dukiet. There was a completely different feel around the program when KO came in despite the less than stellar records those initial years. For that reason, I don't think the hypothetical Scoopers back then would have been as frustrated as one would think. The style of play was frustrating, he was crass etc, but at least we felt like a DI program under his watch.
The climate for Wojo is very different coming off Crean and Buzz, but personally I'm ok with where things are headed.

[tower912]

The Dukiet years were so bad that there were whispers about MU dropping D1 basketball altogether, not merely aspiring to be St. Louis.  Patience is a virtue in short supply on message boards, sometimes.   Wojo clearly deserves a few more years but that does not mean he is above reproach.   

[Dawson Rental]

One contrast between O'Neill and Wojo that hasn't been mentioned yet is that KO was an very good defensive coach from the getgo

[NotAnAlum]

Being blessed with one of the Greatest Shot Blockers in the last 40 years will certainly make anyone look better defensively and Mac was great at that from Day 1.  I remember an interview where Ron Eford said that MU players were coached not so much to stay in front of their man as they were to "funnel him towards Jimmy Mac".

[Dawson Rental]

Being blessed with one of the Greatest Shot Blockers in the last 40 years will certainly make anyone look better defensively and Mac was great at that from Day 1.  I remember an interview where Ron Eford said that MU players were coached not so much to stay in front of their man as they were to "funnel him towards Jimmy Mac".

Jimmy Mac missed a chuck of his first year due to concussion problems that started preseason.  iIRC, he never started his freshman year with Key starting at center and Powell at PF.

[westcoastwarrior]

Lets also not forget KO's team practice in the Old Gym...and did not have access to a private jet for recruiting.  What KO did with what little he had to work with (besides the existing players) was quite remarkable.

[Galway Eagle]

Lets also not forget KO's team practice in the Old Gym...and did not have access to a private jet for recruiting.  What KO did with what little he had to work with (besides the existing players) was quite remarkable.

How many teams had their own jets back them or multi million dollar practice facilities? (honestly curious) Because I feel like we were pretty cutting edge when we built ours.

[StillWarriors]

Jimmy Mac missed a chuck of his first year due to concussion problems that started preseason.  iIRC, he never started his freshman year with Key starting at center and Powell at PF.

I don't think he missed many, if any, games. It was looking like he'd have to redshirt in the pre-season due to what essentially was a glass jaw. If I remember right, he would practice sometimes in boxing headgear b/c they couldn't figure out what was going on. As it turned out, a mouth guard essentially saved his season. Would have been ugly(ier) without him for sure.

[Goose]

When KO took over all the road blue uni's did not even match. It was a mess from top all the way down. KO made a point to let everyone know how bad things were as well. Coming from AZ it had to be a real shock to the system.

[MarquetteDano]

One contrast between O'Neill and Wojo that hasn't been mentioned yet is that KO was an very good defensive coach from the getgo

And he was a poor offensive coach and really continued to be.  I remember us beating his USC team in Maui and they were awful offensively.

The similarities (albeit switched between offense and defense) of being good recruiters and poor at coaching one side of the game has me concerned.  Hope Wojo improves in this area.

[GGGG]

When KO took over all the road blue uni's did not even match. It was a mess from top all the way down. KO made a point to let everyone know how bad things were as well. Coming from AZ it had to be a real shock to the system.

Marquette was also in the MCC at the time too.

I would say this.  As far as the "state of the overall program," KO took over at a much worse time.  As far as the "state of the talent on the basketball team," KO's situation was better than Wojo's.

[Goose]

Vinnie

KO inherited the worst team in MU history.

[StillWarriors]

When KO took over all the road blue uni's did not even match. It was a mess from top all the way down. KO made a point to let everyone know how bad things were as well. Coming from AZ it had to be a real shock to the system.

Not to mention the LA Gear shoes several players blew out of...most conspicuously Logterman trying to bring the ball up the court against Kansas or Duke.

[GGGG]

Vinnie

KO inherited the worst team in MU history.

I don't agree with that.  I was there at the time, and IMO the 1989-90 team was better than the one Wojo inherited.

That team had a future NBA player as a senior (Tony Smith), and three other additional solid players (Anglavar, Baldwin and Powell).  Wojo had nothing of the sort.

[Goose]

Still Warriors

I was at both the Duke and Kansas games and still remember how hot KO got over those shoes. Two big losses but a great NC schedule that year. We played Michigan in between those two games.

Vinnie
The three aside from Tony Smith were low end D1 players at best. The remainder of the team was made up of D3 teams