Wojo vs. KO

[brewcity77]

Vinnie

I wish our fan base had same expectations from a coach/program as UT fans. IMO the worst thing at MU is that we are always hoping things will improve the following year. MU fan base instant results is five years and that is why we find ourselves looking up at other programs far too often.

I'm getting tired of this refrain without any supporting arguments. I have pointed out plenty of similar rebuilds to ours that generally required 3-5 years to get back to the Tournament. Who are these coaches that are turning things around in one year? And clearly the names "Smart" and "Howland" can't be on that list when you consider the state of the programs they are at now. I wanted Shaka too, but that doesn't discount what Wojo has done to the positive.

[Goose]

Brew

Buzz is doing alright on taking over a rebuild.

[GGGG]

Not just that, but what does a fanbase expectations have to do with it?  Does it make the process happen faster?  No.  It just makes people make muguru-like rants that don't solve anything.

[GGGG]

Brew

Buzz is doing alright on taking over a rebuild.

Buzz is probably a better coach than Wojo. 

Unless Buzz wants to return here if we fire Wojo, the point is relatively pointless.

[Goose]

Vinnie

Of course, Brew asked who is doing a quick rebuild these days and Buzz was my response.

[Lennys Tap]

Buzz is probably a better coach than Wojo. 

Unless Buzz wants to return here if we fire Wojo, the point is relatively pointless.

Agree with everything except the "probably".

[4everwarriors]

MU82

There is no KO crowd or Wojo crowd here. It is just factually revisiting history. Very few on here would say much good about KO as a person, only he saved a dying program.

Too often on here it seems people take sides based off emotion. I have had degree of feelings about every coach in MU history and I think I am able to take emotion out of a discussion.

As for KO, liked him a lot as a person, loved that he saved a program and thought he was a so so basketball coach. Would have been happy if he stayed, but no tears shed when he left. Bottom line is the man saved us and fortunately wojo was given a job that has a program in far better shape.

Kevin used ta jog past my crib each dey. Kept promisin' he'd offer my son a schollie each time we were out der shootin' hoops on da driveway. Ta dis dey, da mofo never ponied up da free ride, so he's on my chit list, ai na?

[Eldon]

Some people have taken up the torch so strongly for Wojo that they are now going back to subtly-but-not-so-subtly taking digs at KO and his resurrection of MUBB.

"Actually, did KO really inherit a bad program?  I have my doubts now that I have taken up the torch for Wojo"

It reminds me a lot of the Packer fans who were upset after Favre left for the Vikings that they went back and shat on his 16-year career: "Actually, what did Favre really get us in those 16 seasons?  One SB? Whoopty doo"

[GGGG]

"Actually, did KO really inherit a bad program?  I have my doubts now that I have taken up the torch for Wojo"

No one claimed that KO didn't inherit a bad *program.*

Some are claiming he inherited a better *team* in his first year.

There is a difference.

[MU82]

Buzz is doing alright on taking over a rebuild.

One can look back in history and find examples on both sides of this equation.

Some effen great coaches struggled for years before turning things around. Some coaches were able to do it sooner for various reasons.

Buzz won at MU faster than Wright won at Nova. Is Buzz a better coach than Jay Wright? I'm not sure how one could answer yes to that. Is Buzz a better coach than Wojo? Sure. His record would indicate the answer is a strong yes.

Still, Buzz has been at Va. Tech for the exact same amount of time that Wojo has been at Marquette and Buzz has the exact same number of NCAA appearances as Wojo does. Buzz certainly might get there this year. So might Wojo. I hope every single Scooper, including Buzz's biggest fans or apologists, is rooting more for the latter than the former.

I'd have rather have had Shaka, too. But again, Shaka so far this season is proving that it ain't easy. Not many guys in history have walked into a high-major program and won big immediately. And most of those who have (for example, Kevin Ollie at UConn and, to a lesser extent, Bruce Weber at Ill, Buzz at MU) did so because they inherited darn good situations.

Shaka ultimately will be judged on his record. And that is how it should be.

Using that as a guide, Wojo's team has produced a better record in his first 2 1/3 years as a college head coach than KO's did in his first 2 1/3 years as a college head coach. That's a fact.

I'd believe KO inherited a worse TEAM than Wojo did if Wojo had a future 10-year NBA player and KO had to give major minutes to Derrick and Juan, but others are allowed to believe differently. That's an opinion.

I'm starting to repeat myself, and as my name isn't chicos or Ners or MUFINY, I will now cease and desist unless I have something new to offer.

Much of our discussion, Goose, comes down to semantics, perception and opinion. I respect you, and I am very happy to hear you want the best for Wojo and our Warriors.

The alternative - the team sucks the rest of this season and then for the next year or two, Wojo is fired, we have to hire another guy, recruits leave, players transfer, lather-rinse-repeat - is not one I'm looking forward to, that's for sure.

That's a steep price to pay for some Scoopers (not you, but some) being able to puff out their chests and say, "I told you so."

[brewcity77]

Brew

Buzz is doing alright on taking over a rebuild.

I'm calling BS on this one. Even though, as Sultan noted, Buzz is probably a better coach (at least in-game wise).

Buzz went 11-22 in year one, rebounded to a decent year two, same win total as we had with an even worse non-conference, and having a very similar year this year. Though Buzz has the ability to recruit JUCOs. Pomeroy has the two teams separated by 1 in rankings (Va Tech 37, we are 38), both are likely bubble teams this year, both are picked for 9-9 conference records. If you think Buzz is doing alright, then you must by default also think Wojo is doing alright since the job they have both done is virtually identical.

[dgies9156]

Here are some comments from a Longhorn basketball message board:

"Texas gives the man a raise and an extension to his contract, and he doesn't recruit a true point guard ????? What good is a basketball team when you don't have a point guard ?????? At least Charlie recruited a QB in SB.....SMH......
Looks like our basketball team will be mediocre to bad. We may have a streaky shooter, but have no pure scorers we can depend on. Even if the Freshmen develop, not having a point guard will have us near the bottom of the pack in the Big 12. "

"Looks like the following year will be rebuilding too if some Freshmen leave after one and we have a true Freshman point guard....Spinning our wheels just like with Barnes....except spending more money for the same or lesser product."

"Yep ...no shooters to force defense out away from paint, and no point guard to distribute the ball. Smart may not win 10 games if the conference is worth a crap this year. A $3 million dollar bust ? Looks like no post season for football or basketball for 2016-17."

I thought I was reading Scoop!!!!!!

Goose, you're one of my favorite reads on Scoop. Agree to disagree on this one. When Wojo came, we had eight scholarship athletes. If he somehow had not sold Matt Carlino on coming here, our beloved Warriors might have barely four games that year.

I understand the attraction to Shaka, but it's kinda  like bemoaning not hiring Denny Crum after Al left or not doing better after we replaced Majerus. Yeah, I would have loved Roy Williams, Coach K, Jay Wright or Slick Rick Pitino down at Loserville. But none of them were coming here either and, at the end of the day, we had about as much chance with Shaka as we did with any of those guys.

We'll see in time if we have someone special.

[Goose]

dgies

We could have had Denny in '77 and had Shaka for a few hours. Rick left in mid summer and no chance to get anyone that could walk and chew gum at the same time.

I do love all the post Matt Carlino love because I was one of three guys happy to see him from the day he announced. They called him selfish, a cancer from three programs, a chucker and now he carried MU to some wins. I mean this with all due respect, you saying nice things about Matt makes my day.

[Lennys Tap]

I'm calling BS on this one. Even though, as Sultan noted, Buzz is probably a better coach (at least in-game wise).

Buzz went 11-22 in year one, rebounded to a decent year two, same win total as we had with an even worse non-conference, and having a very similar year this year. Though Buzz has the ability to recruit JUCOs. Pomeroy has the two teams separated by 1 in rankings (Va Tech 37, we are 38), both are likely bubble teams this year, both are picked for 9-9 conference records. If you think Buzz is doing alright, then you must by default also think Wojo is doing alright since the job they have both done is virtually identical.

I'm calling BS on this one. The roof on a fine home that Wojo inherited had some hail damage. The house Buzz got was a shack to begin with and had been leveled by a hurricane. Past history, state of program, $ commitment, conference difficulty and players  to rebuild with - all advantage Wojo. They may be tied or close to it at the one mile mark today but Wojo had better running shoes and a half mile head start.

[forgetful]

I'm calling BS on this one. The roof on a fine home that Wojo inherited had some hail damage. The house Buzz got was a shack to begin with and had been leveled by a hurricane. Past history, state of program, $ commitment, conference difficulty and players  to rebuild with - all advantage Wojo. They may be tied or close to it at the one mile mark today but Wojo had better running shoes and a half mile head start.

It's easy to self rationalize ones stance.  How about this?

Wojo came in with nothing.  First time head coach.  Recruiting cabinet left completely bare by the departed one. 

Buzz was able to bring most of a very heralded recruiting class (leaving MU's class empty) and with a solid reputation to lean on recruiting wise.

Both were essentially starting over from scratch, one could bring a strong recruiting class with him. 

I'd expect this scenario to at least offset the advantages you claim Wojo had.  I'd argue that these reasons are more impactful and because of that Wojo started off in worse condition...but that would be self rationalization.  Bottom line, Wojo and Buzz's scenarios were not that different and they are performing very similar.  Conclusion, they are doing an equal job...the established coach should be outperforming.  He's not.

[Lennys Tap]

It's easy to self rationalize ones stance.  How about this?

Wojo came in with nothing.  First time head coach.  Recruiting cabinet left completely bare by the departed one. 

Buzz was able to bring most of a very heralded recruiting class (leaving MU's class empty) and with a solid reputation to lean on recruiting wise.

Both were essentially starting over from scratch, one could bring a strong recruiting class with him. 

I'd expect this scenario to at least offset the advantages you claim Wojo had.  I'd argue that these reasons are more impactful and because of that Wojo started off in worse condition...but that would be self rationalization.  Bottom line, Wojo and Buzz's scenarios were not that different and they are performing very similar.  Conclusion, they are doing an equal job...the established coach should be outperforming.  He's not.

How about it? Other than "nailing" the fact that Wojo was a first year coach, you basically whiffed on everything.

1. Wojo came in with nothing. FALSE. Wojo came in with seven (7) players rated in the top 100 in high school + a returning starting senior point guard + a dynamic scoring 6th man +  a backup point guard.
2. Recruiting cupboard left completely bare. FALSE. Buzz commit (and top 100 recruit) Sandy Cohen honored his commitment.
3. Buzz took most of a heralded class with him to VT. FALSE. Buzz did take 1 of the 3 heralded members of that class to VT (Ahmed Hill). Cohen stayed with MU and Mariel Shayok switched to Virginia. Project, low rated big Pierce also went to VT played little and transferred.
4. Both were essentially starting over from scratch. FALSE. Even today, 2 of MU's best players (Luke and JJJ) play for Wojo. So does key reserve Du Wilson. Without them MU = DePaul or St Johns. All of Buzz's players at VT are his - total rebuild.

So you're right - if you state a lot of non facts as facts you can make a pretty good case for an opinion. But scientists generally shy away from that, no?

[brewcity77]

I'm calling BS on this one. The roof on a fine home that Wojo inherited had some hail damage. The house Buzz got was a shack to begin with and had been leveled by a hurricane. Past history, state of program, $ commitment, conference difficulty and players  to rebuild with - all advantage Wojo. They may be tied or close to it at the one mile mark today but Wojo had better running shoes and a half mile head start.

Just because Hurricane Buzz leveled his own roster doesn't mean it was a shack to begin with. Buzz ran off Adam Smith, Trevor Thompson, Joey Van Zegeren, Ben Emologu, and Marshall Wood, all of whom went on to be productive players at other programs, as well as CJ Barksdale, who had been a decent player for Va Tech. Buzz had plenty of tools in his toolbox, he just threw them away.

If Wojo had a half-mile head start, it's only because Buzz started running backwards when the gun sounded. That's no real surprise, it's his way of doing things and I think he really relishes getting guys to transfer out, but let's not sugar coat the turd he left for Wojo.

[forgetful]

How about it? Other than "nailing" the fact that Wojo was a first year coach, you basically whiffed on everything.

1. Wojo came in with nothing. FALSE. Wojo came in with seven (7) players rated in the top 100 in high school + a returning starting senior point guard + a dynamic scoring 6th man +  a backup point guard.
2. Recruiting cupboard left completely bare. FALSE. Buzz commit (and top 100 recruit) Sandy Cohen honored his commitment.
3. Buzz took most of a heralded class with him to VT. FALSE. Buzz did take 1 of the 3 heralded members of that class to VT (Ahmed Hill). Cohen stayed with MU and Mariel Shayok switched to Virginia. Project, low rated big Pierce also went to VT played little and transferred.
4. Both were essentially starting over from scratch. FALSE. Even today, 2 of MU's best players (Luke and JJJ) play for Wojo. So does key reserve Du Wilson. Without them MU = DePaul or St Johns. All of Buzz's players at VT are his - total rebuild.

So you're right - if you state a lot of non facts as facts you can make a pretty good case for an opinion. But scientists generally shy away from that, no?

On 1:  what they were rated in high school was irrelevant.  They were mostly flops or transferred out (Burton) or were recruited by Wojo after he arrived (Carlino).  The only people on the roster that have lived up to top 100 billing are Luke and JJJ (who was drastically underperforming at the time and if it wasn't for Wojo and co reworking his shot would still be a flop).  Buzz cleared out a nice cabinet and kept Hill, and also kept Pierce who many hear and who Buzz thought was a late bloomer that could be a 3-4 year starter.  It was a flop, like many of Buzz's recruits. 

The team was coming off a 17-15 record with all their best players leaving and nearly all of their scoring.  The roster was dreadful.  Citing top 100 players is irrelevant if the players didn't have top 100 skills.

1b.  The starting senior PG was Derrick Wilson, who many thought shouldn't even play D1 ball (I strongly disagree).  Who was the backup PG, Dawson, who is only mediocre at Liberty?  Who is they dynamic scoring 6-man?  Mayo, he would have been off the team no matter who was coach.  Burton?  Yeah he was ok, but wasn't staying. 

2.  The roster was short to begin with.  With Cohen and Mayo there would have been 9 players on the roster.  Mayo was unlikely to remain on the team even if Buzz stayed, so really only 8 roster players (9 when Luke became eligible).  That is very bare.

3.  See 1 above.  Hill was expected to start from day 1.  Many figured Pierce would start from day 1 and compete with Luke for playing time. 

4.  See Brew's post.  VT had a decent roster, Buzz imploded it.  Many at the time thought JJJ was a flop and should transfer.  He couldn't shoot worth a lick.  Luke was solid.  That was it.  Duane was a RS freshman who hadn't stepped on a college court. 

Also, Wojo has already put a player he recruited into the NBA.

[MomofMUltiples]

Or how about this?  Buzz came in to a program that was a perennial bottom feeder in the ACC and fans had no expectations.

Wojo came in to a program that had made three sweet sixteens and an elite eight in the past five years, but inherited the bare cupboard when the previous coach robbed the safe and left town. 

No wonder VPI fans are relatively happy with their coach's rebuilding process, while Scoopers seem to be relatively disgruntled by theirs.

[dgies9156]

dgies

I do love all the post Matt Carlino love because I was one of three guys happy to see him from the day he announced. I mean this with all due respect, you saying nice things about Matt makes my day.

I saw what happened when that jackass from Villanova, Ryan Archidiacano, flipped Matt and he didn't play for a few games because of a concussion.. I think we laid a goose egg during Matt's down time. Matt in many ways saved Wojo's first season from being a violent nuclear strike against us.

I never criticized the guy -- at least I don't think I did. We owe him a lot.

I don't know the particulars of Shaka. Nor, at this point, do I care. Maybe he will live to regret the day he didn't find his way to the shores of Lake Michigan. One can hope.

[forgetful]

Or how about this?  Buzz came in to a program that was a perennial bottom feeder in the ACC and fans had no expectations.

Wojo came in to a program that had made three sweet sixteens and an elite eight in the past five years, but inherited the bare cupboard when the previous coach robbed the safe and left town. 

No wonder VPI fans are relatively happy with their coach's rebuilding process, while Scoopers seem to be relatively disgruntled by theirs.

Expectations definitely lower.  But VPI was not really a perennial cellar dweller.  Greenberg had them as a perennial bubble team.  After one bad year he was canned and they made a bad hire, who they fired after only 2 (dismal) seasons.  Buzz took off from there.  They were only 3 years removed from a 22-win season when Buzz took over. 

One would expect Buzz to be able to exceed Greenberg (170-123 record; 25-9 in 09-10).  He didn't last year and this year he will likely also fall short of the NCAA.  He would have to substantially underperform next year in order to miss the tournament (LeDay and Hill will be seniors). 

[Lennys Tap]

On 1:  what they were rated in high school was irrelevant.  They were mostly flops or transferred out (Burton) or were recruited by Wojo after he arrived (Carlino).  The only people on the roster that have lived up to top 100 billing are Luke and JJJ (who was drastically underperforming at the time and if it wasn't for Wojo and co reworking his shot would still be a flop).  Buzz cleared out a nice cabinet and kept Hill, and also kept Pierce who many hear and who Buzz thought was a late bloomer that could be a 3-4 year starter.  It was a flop, like many of Buzz's recruits. 

The team was coming off a 17-15 record with all their best players leaving and nearly all of their scoring.  The roster was dreadful.  Citing top 100 players is irrelevant if the players didn't have top 100 skills.

1b.  The starting senior PG was Derrick Wilson, who many thought shouldn't even play D1 ball (I strongly disagree).  Who was the backup PG, Dawson, who is only mediocre at Liberty?  Who is they dynamic scoring 6-man?  Mayo, he would have been off the team no matter who was coach.  Burton?  Yeah he was ok, but wasn't staying. 

2.  The roster was short to begin with.  With Cohen and Mayo there would have been 9 players on the roster.  Mayo was unlikely to remain on the team even if Buzz stayed, so really only 8 roster players (9 when Luke became eligible).  That is very bare.

3.  See 1 above.  Hill was expected to start from day 1.  Many figured Pierce would start from day 1 and compete with Luke for playing time. 

4.  See Brew's post.  VT had a decent roster, Buzz imploded it.  Many at the time thought JJJ was a flop and should transfer.  He couldn't shoot worth a lick.  Luke was solid.  That was it.  Duane was a RS freshman who hadn't stepped on a college court. 

Also, Wojo has already put a player he recruited into the NBA.

Nothing in this post alters the FACT that your previous post was one falsehood after another.

But you've added a few new falsehoods:

1. Buzz inherited a decent roster. VT was 9-22 the year before Buzz arrived. The roster was full of bad players, bad attitudes or both. Before this year started all were gone.

2.Many figured Pierce would start from day one. Pierce was a major project (ranked sub 200 by all). Nobody who knew anything about basketball thought he would start. Played 6 minutes a game on an 11-22 VT squad as a freshman, 13 as a sophomore before transferring.

[T-Bone]

In a fist fight, KO over Wojo.

[Lennys Tap]

Or how about this?  Buzz came in to a program that was a perennial bottom feeder in the ACC and fans had no expectations.

Wojo came in to a program that had made three sweet sixteens and an elite eight in the past five years, but inherited the bare cupboard when the previous coach robbed the safe and left town. 

No wonder VPI fans are relatively happy with their coach's rebuilding process, while Scoopers seem to be relatively disgruntled by theirs.

It's always harder to win at a storied program than at a bottom feeder. It's why guys like Bill Self always leave a Kansas for a DePaul. It's so much easier to win there, dontcha know?

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

In a fist fight, KO over Wojo.

Ah yes but what about a thumb wrestling match