Wojo vs. KO

[Lennys Tap]

A lot of posters have touched on this, but where 82 and Brew go wrong is mistaking the state of the PROGRAM with the players or team they inherited. Yes, KO inherited a very good player in Tony Smith, a local kid. But Marquette as a PROGRAM was in the dumpster. No money, no practice facility, no private plane, no Big East and, most importantly, no recent history of success. Now, Wojo, (like KO) didn't inherit a very good TEAM (only 6 top 100 players, little depth because two top 100 recruits didn't come), but he inherited a premier PROGRAM - the AL, huge budget, private plane, etc., etc., plus a strong history of recent success (8 NCAAs in 9 years, 7 NCAA tournament wins in the past 4 years). The difference between what the two inherited from a program perspective was huge.

[mu03eng]

A lot of posters have touched on this, but where 82 and Brew go wrong is mistaking the state of the PROGRAM with the players or team they inherited. Yes, KO inherited a very good player in Tony Smith, a local kid. But Marquette as a PROGRAM was in the dumpster. No money, no practice facility, no private plane, no Big East and, most importantly, no recent history of success. Now, Wojo, (like KO) didn't inherit a very good TEAM (only 6 top 100 players, little depth because two top 100 recruits didn't come), but he inherited a premier PROGRAM - the AL, huge budget, private plane, etc., etc., plus a strong history of recent success (8 NCAAs in 9 years, 7 NCAA tournament wins in the past 4 years). The difference between what the two inherited from a program perspective was huge.

How many programs had all over that in 1996? The comparison shouldn't the state of the program then to the state now....it's the state of the program then relative to the environment at the time vs the state of the program now relative to now.

What you are doing is basically comparing your salary now vs your salary in 1995 without accounting for inflation. Of course now looks better than then.

[brewcity77]

Goose, I don't think there can be any real arguing the talent discrepancy, however. There were plenty of bigger off-court issues, and survival by KO is to be lauded, but no matter what people want to say about high school rankings, Wojo took over a team that had virtually no chance to win. Was there some talent? Sure, but none of the experienced players had much talent, while none of the talented players had much experience.

I acknowledged there were bigger issues and that my point was specifically regarding the talent. We had no star power and the only high major players were Fischer, Johnson, Wilson, and Burton who were all second year college players with a combined 350 points scored. Well, and Mayo, but it's a near miracle Buzz even kept him on the roster that long.

[mu03eng]

Well, and Mayo, but it's a near miracle Buzz even kept him on the roster that long.

Part of the reason I would vote a hard no on the bring Buzz and/or Crean back thread.

Related to that, KO didn't have some of the structural and legal issues going on in the background that Wojo did when he took the job.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

How many programs had all over that in 1996? The comparison shouldn't the state of the program then to the state now....it's the state of the program then relative to the environment at the time vs the state of the program now relative to now.

What you are doing is basically comparing your salary now vs your salary in 1995 without accounting for inflation. Of course now looks better than then.

I can see an honest debate about the roster, but even on a time adjusted basis I dont think there really is a comparison that the program was (and still is) in better shape....attendance, conference affiliation, momentum, institutional support.

In fact if the program was where it was back then I wonder if we could have even convinced Wojo to be our coach.

[lurch91]

When KO took over all the road blue uni's did not even match. It was a mess from top all the way down. KO made a point to let everyone know how bad things were as well. Coming from AZ it had to be a real shock to the system.

If I remember correctly the home uniforms were worse for wear (they were supposed to be white, most looked off white to tan at best they were so old).  KO refused to let the team wear them until new home uniforms were ordered.  Yes, MU played home games in their road uniforms until the new home uniforms arrived.

Remember also, that KO''s records were against the great teams of Evansville, Detroit,  Loyola of Chicago and yes, Dayton.....

[mu03eng]

I'm guessing this thread gets quiet for a while as everyone piles into the 30 Traci gowne threads that just popped up.

[Lennys Tap]

How many programs had all over that in 1996? The comparison shouldn't the state of the program then to the state now....it's the state of the program then relative to the environment at the time vs the state of the program now relative to now.

What you are doing is basically comparing your salary now vs your salary in 1995 without accounting for inflation. Of course now looks better than then.

First, KO arrived in 1989, not 1996. But to your questions:

1. Private plane - don't really know the answer on this. My guess is we were in the vast majority then (no plane) and among the elites now.

2. Practice facility - The old gym was a dump (comparatively speaking) when I was there from 1966-70 - by 1989 it was a disgrace. The AL is state of the art right now.

3. Conference - MU was in its first year removed from independence in a bottom of the barrel conference - the short lived Midwestern City Conference. Now it's in a top notch one.

4. Money - I'm only guessing again, but it's safe to say that in 1989 MU's $ commitment to bball was middle of the road. Today our budget is at the level of the elites.

5.Recent success - KO predecessor was 39-46. We had not played in the NCAA tournament in 7 years. Wojo's predecessor was 139 - 69 with 5 NCAA appearances in 6 years and 7 tournament wins in his last 4.

So, yeah. Relatively speaking (or any other way of speaking) the PROGRAM inherited by Wojo was in infinitely better shape than the one KO got.

[GGGG]

3. Conference - MU was in its first year removed from independence in a bottom of the barrel conference - the short lived Midwestern City Conference. Now it's in a top notch one.

The MCC is now the Horizon League. 

[Lennys Tap]

The MCC is now the Horizon League.

Thanks.

A major drop (then and now) from today's Big East.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

the following year and we were turning the ball over 30 plus times a game to start the season

The silver lining was that this absolutely forced KO to bring in a stud PG in Miller, the one-man press breaker.

[MU82]

I am absolutely acknowledging the "program was in worse shape" argument goes in KO's favor.

He still inherited an NBA player who was a senior and other multi-year D1 starters. Wojo had Carlino, a mid-year arrival with a handful of career games as a benchwarmer (Fischer), and prayer.

In Year 2, each brought in a highly-touted group of newcomers, with KO also bringing in a legit game-ready transfer (Curry). Wojo went 20-13 with his group; KO went 11-18 with his.

I mean, come on, the "KO was better" crowd can't acknowledge that? I mean, they are facts, right?

Let's also look at KO's overall coaching career - a complete trainwreck after Tony Miller singlehandedly beat Kentucky.

Ultimately, the record decides how good a coach is, and over 16 years, KO was 197-240, a .451 winning percentage. He also was 33-49 in the NBA.

I sincerely hope that we'll be saying Wojo accomplished more as a coach. If not, he surely will deserve to be fired.

[Norm]

Wojo's 20 win season last year was padded by one of the softest non-conference schedules in the country.

[MU82]

Wojo's 20 win season last year was padded by one of the softest non-conference schedules in the country.

Agreed.

He also doubled the team's win Big East win total from the previous season, beating some ranked teams in the process.

Wojo's Golden Eagles won almost as many games in an excellent conference as KO's Warriors did in his entire second season.

Next!

[Lennys Tap]

I am absolutely acknowledging the "program was in worse shape" argument goes in KO's favor.

He still inherited an NBA player who was a senior and other multi-year D1 starters. Wojo had Carlino, a mid-year arrival with a handful of career games as a benchwarmer (Fischer), and prayer.

In Year 2, each brought in a highly-touted group of newcomers, with KO also bringing in a legit game-ready transfer (Curry). Wojo went 20-13 with his group; KO went 11-18 with his.

I mean, come on, the "KO was better" crowd can't acknowledge that? I mean, they are facts, right?

Let's also look at KO's overall coaching career - a complete trainwreck after Tony Miller singlehandedly beat Kentucky.

Ultimately, the record decides how good a coach is, and over 16 years, KO was 197-240, a .451 winning percentage. He also was 33-49 in the NBA.

I sincerely hope that we'll be saying Wojo accomplished more as a coach. If not, he surely will deserve to be fired.

Kevin's life was on the verge of becoming a train wreck when he was at MU and became one shortly after he left. He had a lot of self destructive habits that Wojo doesn't share. Because he was a brilliant coach, he kept getting chances. Because he lacked self control, he ended up blowing them. KO wasn't a long term answer for MU or anyone else because of his demons. But he did save a once proud program that was drowning and he did it with minimal help from the university. Wojo's accomplishments at Marquette (such as they are) pale in comparison.

[Goose]

MU82

There is no KO crowd or Wojo crowd here. It is just factually revisiting history. Very few on here would say much good about KO as a person, only he saved a dying program.

Too often on here it seems people take sides based off emotion. I have had degree of feelings about every coach in MU history and I think I am able to take emotion out of a discussion.

As for KO, liked him a lot as a person, loved that he saved a program and thought he was a so so basketball coach. Would have been happy if he stayed, but no tears shed when he left. Bottom line is the man saved us and fortunately wojo was given a job that has a program in far better shape.

[MU82]

MU82

There is no KO crowd or Wojo crowd here. It is just factually revisiting history. Very few on here would say much good about KO as a person, only he saved a dying program.

Too often on here it seems people take sides based off emotion. I have had degree of feelings about every coach in MU history and I think I am able to take emotion out of a discussion.

As for KO, liked him a lot as a person, loved that he saved a program and thought he was a so so basketball coach. Would have been happy if he stayed, but no tears shed when he left. Bottom line is the man saved us and fortunately wojo was given a job that has a program in far better shape.

I am taking sides based on performance at the similar stages of their coaching careers. By any measurable metric, Wojo has outperformed KO through 2 1/3 seasons.

All the other stuff -- "saved the program" ... "better shape" ... "worse shape" ... etc, etc, etc -- is subjective.

As for Lenny calling KO a "brilliant coach," obviously ADs must have thought so (or at least hoped so) because he kept getting hired. But at what point does the record -- the pure numbers -- take over?

I feel bad because I feel like I am attacking O'Neill, but this sort of thing happens when one is comparing and contrasting two of anything. I actually got to know him a little (though not until after he got to Northwestern) and I liked him. And I think he was a very good recruiter who grew to be a decent bench coach.

But the facts are the facts are the facts.

My opinion is that the program was in worse shape for O'Neill but the roster was in worse shape for Wojo. Others might disagree.

The fact is that O'Neill underperformed Wojo, especially in Year 2 of their respective regimes. Unless one can look at 11-18 with no wins over ranked teams and somehow come up with that being superior to 20-13 with 3 wins over ranked teams and a preseason tournament victory.

To me, all of this comes under the backdrop of expectations. I happen to think it is perfectly reasonable to point out that it took Jay Wright, Coach K and many, many, many other highly successful coaches years to build a winning program. Some other Scoopers hate such talk; they think Wojo should have won from Day 1. Some truly delusional types actually have argued he had quite a talented roster in Year 1.

And I happen to think it also is perfectly reasonable to say:

"Look at KO. He had a 42-45 cumulative record his first three years despite having two future NBAers and several other outstanding D1 players. It took him 4 years to get us to the Dance and another year to win a tourney game. Doesn't Wojo deserve a similar run before so many conclude he's not good enough to coach at Marquette?"

[Let's Go Warriors]

Being blessed with one of the Greatest Shot Blockers in the last 40 years will certainly make anyone look better defensively and Mac was great at that from Day 1.  I remember an interview where Ron Eford said that MU players were coached not so much to stay in front of their man as they were to "funnel him towards Jimmy Mac".

Sounds like a coach adjusting his philosophy to fit his talent.  Good thing he didnt try to have Mac out on the perimeter, or not play him because he wasnt gifted offensively.

[GGGG]

Sounds like a coach adjusting his philosophy to fit his talent.  Good thing he didnt try to have Mac out on the perimeter, or not play him because he wasnt gifted offensively.

So you are saying that Mac never hedged a pick on the perimeter?  Of course he did.  He was quicker than Luke though and recovered better, and had better front line players who could help without giving up too much size.

And do you really think that a center shouldn't hedge a pick?

[Goose]

MU82

Fair enough. Really is not worth comparing the two because it is two different times in history. I got to know KO before he became MU coach and enjoyed 90% of what he brought to the table. While far from an expert on talent I have been lucky enough to a few people that are that have helped me frame my thoughts on the topic. To a man every one of those people felt KO inherited the worst team in MU history. That said, you may be right and they may be wrong.

As I mentioned in my last post, fortunately Wojo inherited the overall program in a much better place than KO. Time and win/losses will ultimately determine Wojo's place in MU history. I hope it ends up being a success story that leads to future discussion/debates for years to come. The only coach I openly rooted against was the end of the Dukiet era because I believed a change had to be made. Pulling hard for Wojo and hoping he knocks it out of the park.

[Let's Go Warriors]

So you are saying that Mac never hedged a pick on the perimeter?  Of course he did.  He was quicker than Luke though and recovered better, and had better front line players who could help without giving up too much size.

And do you really think that a center shouldn't hedge a pick?

If you think what Luke is doing is hedging, then I have some Ocean Front property in Arizone Id like to sell you.

[dgies9156]

My basic take is this:

KO -- KO had a crappy brand. The luster had dimmed so much from our NatChamp days that he was putting out a dumpster fire and rebuilding from the ground up. Getting  and keeping talent like Tony, Jim etc., was his accomplishment. He had the benefit of being able to sell anyone any good on the chance to start immediately and make a tremendous difference. Tony was one of the best we had and Jim was incredible.

Wojo -- Better brand, bigger dumpster fire. Had a coach on the way out who was extremely critical of our conference and our school and left our program in shambles. We had a much better reputation when Wojo came here, but the rebuild was as tough as KO's and Wojo had a far less forgiving fan base. And, he had social media that spread the news of the toxic dumpster fire everytime he moved.

KO left for the University of Tennessee to coach a university with no previous basketball excellence (sorry Ray Mears, you and excellence don't mix) in a conference dominated by Kentucky. He did a nice job at UT as well before bolting for, of all places, Northwestern.  To this day, I believe KO could have won a national title at either Marquette or Tennessee if he had been patient. Why he left UT, I'll never understand. I know the "official" and "unofficial" reasons, but at some point someone's id overcomes their ego.

[Goose]

dgies

I disagree on the size of the dumpster fire Wojo inherited. While I never could prove one way or another, but I feel if Shaka had taken the job the program would be light years further ahead. Hiring an inexperienced coach was a gamble IMO. Shaka could have put a dumpster fire out in two minutes and had brought instant credibility to the MU brand.

[GGGG]

dgies

I disagree on the size of the dumpster fire Wojo inherited. While I never could prove one way or another, but I feel if Shaka had taken the job the program would be light years further ahead. Hiring an inexperienced coach was a gamble IMO. Shaka could have put a dumpster fire out in two minutes and had brought instant credibility to the MU brand.

Texas is 5-4 this year.  The four losses include games v. Colorado, Northwestern and UT-Arlington.

Here are some comments from a Longhorn basketball message board:

"Texas gives the man a raise and an extension to his contract, and he doesn't recruit a true point guard ????? What good is a basketball team when you don't have a point guard ?????? At least Charlie recruited a QB in SB.....SMH......
Looks like our basketball team will be mediocre to bad. We may have a streaky shooter, but have no pure scorers we can depend on. Even if the Freshmen develop, not having a point guard will have us near the bottom of the pack in the Big 12. "

"Looks like the following year will be rebuilding too if some Freshmen leave after one and we have a true Freshman point guard....Spinning our wheels just like with Barnes....except spending more money for the same or lesser product."

"Yep ...no shooters to force defense out away from paint, and no point guard to distribute the ball. Smart may not win 10 games if the conference is worth a crap this year. A $3 million dollar bust ? Looks like no post season for football or basketball for 2016-17."


So I'm not saying you are wrong.  Just saying that fans all over don't likely have a proper perspective of the state of their program.

[Goose]

Vinnie

I wish our fan base had same expectations from a coach/program as UT fans. IMO the worst thing at MU is that we are always hoping things will improve the following year. MU fan base instant results is five years and that is why we find ourselves looking up at other programs far too often.