Perspective on Rebuilding

[NotAnAlum]

Since the Badger game I’ve been thinking a lot about how long rebuilding should take and where Wojo is on that path, is he moving more slowly because he knows he has the long term support of the Marquette admin etc.?

First in the last 30 years we’ve had 3 head coach changes were the coach was effectively asked to leave. (I’m going to count Buzz as asked to leave as the admin certainly didn’t seem too sad to see him go).  In all 3 cases the new HC had no Head Coaching experience.  Its these situation’s (HC pushed out, new HC no experience) that lead to the longest rebuilding periods. 

Under O’Neill we had an OK first season, a disastrous 2nd season, an average but showing promise no NIT 3rd season, before we finally got back to the Tournament in the 4th season.  It was the 5th season before they won a game in the Tournament (the sweet 16 run).  O’Neill had a lot of questionable coaching decisions in those first 4 years but by year 5 he had improved to the point that people felt the program was in good hands.  Crean had a similar trajectory but he was 1 year ahead and better once he got there BUT that extra improvement has a lot to do with getting a once in a lifetime future NBA hall of famer in his 3rd year. 

The first year of any coach is more about his predecessor than it is about him. Year 2 at 20-13 Wojo out preformed either of the other 2 and he also plays in a much tougher league.  If MU ends up anywhere near the NCAA bubble he will have out done O’Neill’s 3rd year and without Wade I’m not sure Crean’s 3rd year is a lot better.  It just shows it really takes 4 years to recover from a coach being forced out.  In fact looking at it this way it now seems that rather than being too patient Wojo may have actually be too impatient and that might come back to bite him in the decision to take one and done Henry.   

Had Wojo simply gotten a pair of decent High School 4s rather than Henry and Wally he would have had a second season like O’Neill’s BUT he’d have 2 maturing PFs now that would be ready to set MU up for the 4th season when these rebuilding jobs seem to Finally bear fruit.  The talent that is in the program now including the kids signed for next year would seem to set MU up for a good run with my main concern being the lack of maturity in the front court where it matters most. (The Henry effect??)
The final thought is what if Wojo is successful, that just means he is likely to leave.  That is probably very true. 

I doubt very much Wojo will be a lifer at MU.  BUT if the coach moves on because he is successful it seems you don’t normally face this brutal 4 year rebuild cycle because the program is on the way up.  Look at Crean to Buzz, the HC change at Butler, the last few at Xavier.  So as much as its frustrating to see evidence that this team might not be ready this year it would be crazy to assume Wojo won’t make it. 

So the rest of the year I’m going to try to enjoy the ride.

edit: paragraphs are your friend.

[brewcity77]

I see us as being on track to make the NCAA Tournament this year. It's certainly no guarantee, but we have the pieces in place. This team has plenty of offense, and while the defense is a work in progress, I'm optimistic we can shoot our way to 10-11 Big East wins and solidly onto the bubble. What I think we have to remember is this is really year two of the rebuild. The first year featured no players recruited by Wojo that are still here (Sandy was it) so it wasn't until the 2015 recruiting class that we first saw Wojo's team start to form.

Clearly we have some roster issues, but the staff knows it. They brought in a marquee big in Henry, tried to get additional frontcourt help in Levin, Washington, Nichols, Young, and Gill, but it didn't work out. Next year we add 6'7", 6'9", 6'10" and will start to have the kind of length we need to compete on the defensive end.

Consider other rebuilds. Not teams where the coach inherited a wealth of players (like Buzz did here or Holtmann at Butler) but where the bulk of the guys weren't there when the team started to win. Ed Cooley needed 3 years at Providence and he inherited Vincent Council, Kadeem Batts, Bryce Cotton, and Gerard Coleman (with Batts and Cotton the team leaders on that first NCAA team). Fran McCaffrey had nothing at Iowa and it wasn't until Year 4 that they got to the NCAAs. Billy Kennedy inherited talent at TAMU, but most of the best players (including Buck Khris Middleton) left after his first disappointing year and it wasn't until his 5th season they got to the NCAAs. Chris Collins is on his fourth season at Northwestern and hoping to get to the NCAAs.

It's not easy. It's not something that happens overnight. We had a bare cupboard and while there have been missteps, you can see the makings of not just a good team, but a good defensive team. In 2018-19, we will have Hauser, Cain, Bailey, John, Eke, Heldt, and possibly Joey. If that roster comes together, it would be the most length we've had in a long time. It's hard to be patient, but considering how well the offensive rebuild has gone, I'm willing to give them more time to complete the job.

[lurch91]

-1

You actually used logic and reason to create a thoughtful comparison!!

I think everyone saw that there wasn't a drop off in performance from Crean to Buzz, but Buzz had a lot to work with when Crean left.  Wojo didn't have much when Buzz left there were just a small handful of players to work with.

It will take time. Everyone saw how well we played in the first half versus Wisconsin, a half when their best big man was in foul trouble in only 3 minutes of play and MU shot lights out from 3.  The second half it all came crashing back to Earth as Wisconsin asserted itself.  MU will gain lots of experience this year, and will mature. Next year we will be deadly, should be in the top 3 or 4 teams in the Big East and look to take up residence there for years to come.

[MU82]

NAA & brew:

You two are going to get a lot of flak for being so reasonable and logical.

Bringing up that it took KO 4-5 years surely will rile up the Wojo haters because I think many of those same folks loved KO. They seem to have forgotten that he spent a lot of years struggling before experiencing some success.

If one mentions Jay Wright going a LONG time before winning anything, the response is, "That has nothing to do with this" or "Wojo has the financial resources" or "That was different."

Many here would have had Coach K fired in Year 2.

I agree with most of what both of you say here, and why shouldn't I? It's common sense and it's true.

My only nit is NAA saying we should have passed on Henry. No ... you have to take a kid like that. It is more helpful than hurtful to prove that you can sign a Mickey D boy ... and then to have him flourish and get drafted high, those are good things long-term.

I know that most of the folks who already want Wojo out (or at least on the proverbial hot seat) are just frustrated, impatient fans. They want what's best for the program.

I just happen to disagree that starting from scratch - again - is what's best. I also happen to disagree with those who already have given up on Wojo. I believe he has improved as a coach and will continue to do so. Besides, I truly don't think he is going anywhere for at least 2 years beyond this, and maybe 3. So "demanding" otherwise would just add to the frustration.

Anyways ...
Nice job, you two.

[brewcity77]

My only nit is NAA saying we should have passed on Henry. No ... you have to take a kid like that. It is more helpful than hurtful to prove that you can sign a Mickey D boy ... and then to have him flourish and get drafted high, those are good things long-term.

Gotta take a kid like Henry. You just can't pass on a player like that. Because you never know what might happen. Maybe he ends up loving school and staying 2-3 years. Maybe he's good enough to get you to the NCAAs in his only year (We were only a few bounces away in the right games). I will acknowledge that in some ways, Henry may have hindered our ability to win this year. I do think we'd have another big or two on the roster had Henry not come. But he also demonstrated what Wojo can do with a 5-star big man. I think in 3-4 years that could very well pay off as we start to win and become a potential landing spot for more marquee players (not at all worried about Wojo's recruiting).

[Lennys Tap]

Since the Badger game I’ve been thinking a lot about how long rebuilding should take and where Wojo is on that path, is he moving more slowly because he knows he has the long term support of the Marquette admin etc.?
First in the last 30 years we’ve had 3 head coach changes were the coach was effectively asked to leave. (I’m going to count Buzz as asked to leave as the admin certainly didn’t seem too sad to see him go).  In all 3 cases the new HC had no Head Coaching experience.  Its these situation’s (HC pushed out, new HC no experience) that lead to the longest rebuilding periods.  Under O’Neill we had an OK first season, a disastrous 2nd season, an average but showing promise no NIT 3rd season, before we finally got back to the Tournament in the 4th season.  It was the 5th season before they won a game in the Tournament (the sweet 16 run).  O’Neill had a lot of questionable coaching decisions in those first 4 years but by year 5 he had improved to the point that people felt the program was in good hands.  Crean had a similar trajectory but he was 1 year ahead and better once he got there BUT that extra improvement has a lot to do with getting a once in a lifetime future NBA hall of famer in his 3rd year.  The first year of any coach is more about his predecessor than it is about him. Year 2 at 20-13 Wojo out preformed either of the other 2 and he also plays in a much tougher league.  If MU ends up anywhere near the NCAA bubble he will have out done O’Neill’s 3rd year and without Wade I’m not sure Crean’s 3rd year is a lot better.  It just shows it really takes 4 years to recover from a coach being forced out.  In fact looking at it this way it now seems that rather than being too patient Wojo may have actually be too impatient and that might come back to bite him in the decision to take one and done Henry.   Had Wojo simply gotten a pair of decent High School 4s rather than Henry and Wally he would have had a second season like O’Neill’s BUT he’d have 2 maturing PFs now that would be ready to set MU up for the 4th season when these rebuilding jobs seem to Finally bear fruit.  The talent that is in the program now including the kids signed for next year would seem to set MU up for a good run with my main concern being the lack of maturity in the front court where it matters most. (The Henry effect??)
The final thought is what if Wojo is successful, that just means he is likely to leave.  That is probably very true.  I doubt very much Wojo will be a lifer at MU.  BUT if the coach moves on because he is successful it seems you don’t normally face this brutal 4 year rebuild cycle because the program is on the way up.  Look at Crean to Buzz, the HC change at Butler, the last few at Xavier.  So as much as its frustrating to see evidence that this team might not be ready this year it would be crazy to assume Wojo won’t make it.  So the rest of the year I’m going to try to enjoy the ride.

-1. You set up an entire premise based on a fact that isn't a fact but a falsehood. Dukiet and Deane weren't "effectively asked to leave" - they were fired. Buzz wasn't "effectively asked to leave" either. Like KO and Crean, he quit to take a different job. False underpinnings undermine the rest of your (logical or illogical) theory.

[NotAnAlum]

-1. You set up an entire premise based on a fact that isn't a fact but a falsehood. Dukiet and Deane weren't "effectively asked to leave" - they were fired. Buzz wasn't "effectively asked to leave" either. Like KO and Crean, he quit to take a different job. False underpinnings undermine the rest of your (logical or illogical) theory.

Sorry, got to disagree.  Buzz was "invited to leave".  Basically told you need to change everything you do if you want to stay here.  That's "invited to leave".  3 times the program was in complete disarray, 3 assistants from big time programs known great recruiters but with 0 HC experience.  They're a heck of a lot more similar than they are different.

[NotAnAlum]

NAA & brew:

My only nit is NAA saying we should have passed on Henry.

Didn't say we should have passed on HE.  I just said it was a gamble that may end up delaying the Rebuilding Payoff by 1 year.

[fjm]

This thread is 100% what I feel about this process. I just feel bad that MUFINY isn't here to give his two cents.

But totally agree! You guys make great points and I appreciate the patience that is preached here.

[dgies9156]

This is the most reasonable post about where we are that I have read in ages. The fact is that when Wojo came in, we had but eight scholarship athletes on the roster. Our best player that year was a grad transfer (Carlino) and the Hillbilly left us with nothing.

The Scoopers of my generation won't be happy unless we are a blue blood program mentioned in the same breath with such schools as Louisville, North Carolina and Duke, Villanova, Kentucky etc. We were so spoiled in our youth that we think there's no reason other than ourselves that keeps us from getting back to the McGuire era.

We are frustrated with Wojo because he is a button-down, gentlemanly, business-like Coach K clone. He's not Al -- not that anyone could ever be Al. Buzz was more like what we expected in our coach and we lost him largely because our administration was expecting more of Buzz.

If we're objective -- and that's not easy for us -- we know that Marquette is not a win at all costs school. We inherently know that things take time and some recruits may not be what we thought they would be. We're going to miss but we also must acknowledge that we're better than we were two years ago and probably better than we were a year ago. If we're getting beat, it is by senior teams that exploit our youth and impatience and lack of defense. Soon enough, we'll be seniors and we too will do that to others.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I think you do have to take into account the following:

1. The amount of money spent on basketball is much higher than the 00's & early 90's
2. Our conference affiliation is better
3. Our facilities are much better

This Scooper doesnt care whether Wojo is buttoned down or a raging lunatic. I just want to see signs that we regain the momentum generated by Crean & Buzz.

Here is something to ponder - since Raymonds left the average tenure of our head coach is 5.2 years (excluding Wojo)....

So I hope you are right and Wojo builds the house that lasts for 40 years.  I just skeptical that it either gets built or he stays to enjoy it.

[jsglow]

I think you do have to take into account the following:

1. The amount of money spent on basketball is much higher than the 00's & early 90's
2. Our conference affiliation is better
3. Our facilities are much better

This Scooper doesnt care whether Wojo is buttoned down or a raging lunatic. I just want to see signs that we regain the momentum generated by Crean & Buzz.

Here is something to ponder - since Raymonds left the average tenure of our head coach is 5.2 years (excluding Wojo)....

So I hope you are right and Wojo builds the house that lasts for 40 years.  I just skeptical that it either gets built or he stays to enjoy it.

Interesting that you mention the 5.2 years.  Under any scenario I can paint, Wojo is here significantly longer than that.  That is unless he says MU ought to be an NIT team satisfied with an occasional run at the dance.

[brewcity77]

This Scooper doesnt care whether Wojo is buttoned down or a raging lunatic. I just want to see signs that we regain the momentum generated by Crean & Buzz.

I think we can all agree that 2014-15 was pretty much a throwaway season and that the only positives to be gained going forward were anything we got out of Luke (encouraging), Duane (encouraging), and Jajuan (disappointing). Since then we had a 20 win season and now have a top-20 in the nation offensive efficiency. Aren't those signs that after being left a festering pile of roster poo, Wojo is regaining momentum? We're seeing it in recruiting and on-court performance. Even Hologram Al McGuire wasn't going to turn us into a top-10 program overnight.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I just feel bad that MUFINY isn't here to give his two cents.

Texas Western
MU Fan in NY
Gus Ganakas
mattyv1908

He still has plenty of alternate IDs, and those are only the ones we know of

[muwarrior69]

Patience grasshopper, patience. We'll get there.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

That's what I don't get. I see signs everywhere that we are improving. Wojo has put a better product on the floor every year. Provided the trajectory continues we should all be happy.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I think we can all agree that 2014-15 was pretty much a throwaway season and that the only positives to be gained going forward were anything we got out of Luke (encouraging), Duane (encouraging), and Jajuan (disappointing). Since then we had a 20 win season and now have a top-20 in the nation offensive efficiency. Aren't those signs that after being left a festering pile of roster poo, Wojo is regaining momentum? We're seeing it in recruiting and on-court performance. Even Hologram Al McGuire wasn't going to turn us into a top-10 program overnight.

Mixed. Recruiting is good but the ability to execute, general enthusiasm around the program leaves me wanting.  I don't by any means expect a top 10 team - and we are definitely better than the crappy team from two years ago - there is just a gigantic chasm between where we are and where we say our goal is.

By the way I am just biased negative not in the pull the rip cord camp.

[Norm]

Interesting that you mention the 5.2 years.  Under any scenario I can paint, Wojo is here significantly longer than that.  That is unless he says MU ought to be an NIT team satisfied with an occasional run at the dance.

I hope Wojo has great success in the next couple of years here at MU, gets us back in to the NCAA's with a Sweet 16 run and even an Elite Eight or, dare we dream, a Final Four. But whether he has great success or doesn't get it turned around, I don't expect him to be here more than 5-6 years. Like it or not, the Marquette job is a stepping stone job right now - and has been since Rick Majerus patrolled the sideline. Majerus, O'Neill, Crean, and Williams* were all first time coaches who moved on to other jobs (*I'm discounting Buzz's one year at New Orleans). Dukiet and Deane both had head coaching experience at smaller schools before coming to Marquette, but both flamed out here. Dukiet was probably the nicest guy of all these coaches, but was a terrible coach. Deane was probably the best game-day coach of any of the post-Raymonds era, but he was not dedicated to recruiting and his roster suffered for it. So, although he won 100 games faster than any MU coach, he was shown the door for not keeping pace on the recruiting trail.

If Wojo has the success we all hope he does, then my guess is he will leave for an ACC job--that's where he played and coached prior to coming to MU--or a top tier Big Ten job. If he can't pull it together in a couple years, MU will most likely cut bait and move on.

[Goose]

I have seen rebuilding projects at MU and Wojo's rebuilding project fails to compare to that KO faced. This was not a rebuild that needed 4-5 years to make happen. In addition, the excitement level for the program is a very low point. While KO struggled a bit in first few years he brought juice to the program. He was outspoken, brash and made things happen. I loved KO for the excitement he brought to a dead program and his belief he could happen.

While I am disappointed with the results on the court, I am far more disappointed in the lack of excitement or support off the court. Many of us old guys on here would gladly take a 4-5 rebuild if the end result was a better program than Buzz had here. I really do not see that happening and am afraid more and more folks end up off the bandwagon.

[Goose]

Norm

At this point you have better chance of being an ACC men's basketball HC in 3-4 years than Wojo does. He has a lot of work ahead to prove he is long term D1 coach anywhere, IMO.

[Da 'Lanche]

Why I am bullish on Wojo:

1.  Our best players (or players who seem to be performing the best consistently) are "his" guys and his recruits.   He needed to keep a roster together and I'm not saying Luke, JJJ, Duane, etc. are not talented and contributing (they are), but when I watch MU this year the guys I am most excited about and seeing moving us forward are Sam, Markus, Cheatham, etc.   Toss in the incoming recruitment class and recruits on the radar and I see an upgrade in talent and Wojo building a roster of his guys.    I frankly expected more out of the current roster and a coach who can win with the pieces we have in place, but, I see a real promise in the types of players he is getting to commit to the program.

2.  Many argue this on this board...but, the fact he did land a one and done is significant.  When has that ever happened at MU and while not something I would want to build a program on...it shows he can land a big recruit in a very competitive field.   Henry could have gone anywhere...he came to MU.    The nuances were unique with his brother here and MU being in state, but, Wojo still landed a major recruit in only his second year.   

3.  Next year's roster, constituted entirely by Wojo and staff, looks to be the most balanced we have had in years in terms of age, position, skill set, etc.    Now...let's see how they play under Wojo.

4.  By all appearances...the program is clean.    He seems to be doing it the right way and in a manner that is consistent with our school's values and code of integrity.    Frankly, I am proud of that accomplishment after some of the issues surfaced with the program under Buzz.    I firmly believe you can have success the right way...a high level of academic integrity, adherance to a strong moral code, good citizenship and athletic achievement in a program.  I do think we will find that under Wojo.

5.   While not where we want to be yet in terms of results on the court.  The trajectory is upward year over year (over year one which to me was a complete wash out year given when he was hired, the circumstances, and what was left on our roster).    i'm not giving excuses for blowing leads, or not winning more games, or looking like the word defense has never been invented at times, but, there is progress on the court and as we head into the Big East season, I am hopeful for an above 500 campaign and a post season bid.

Next year is vital in my eyes for affirmation or concern that we are in the right hands as a program in terms of basketball success.    I would like to see an inflection up in terms of wins and consistency on the court as well as continued improvement of our young players. I would love to see attendance up and some excitement back in the program from the fan base.  I think expecting an NCAA tourney bid next year is appropriate and we should demand it.   

If everything gels correctly, the program could really be solidified and moving toward sustained excellence by the time the new arena opens.    Starting from scratch right now seems panicked and ill-informed...and not right.

Go MU....let's have a conference season to remember!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

If Wojo has the success we all hope he does, then my guess is he will leave for an ACC job--that's where he played and coached prior to coming to MU--or a top tier Big Ten job. If he can't pull it together in a couple years, MU will most likely cut bait and move on.

Could be but I don't think so. I really think Wojo picked Marquette because he saw a school with all the ingredients to build a dynasty program. He has the chance to build something here that could eventually become blue blooded. I think the only jobs I could see him leaving for are other blue bloods.

I think Wojo has until 2019 to get his program built. If he can't get it done by then MU will cut bait.

[Goose]

TAMU

I agree that Wojo has a very long leash. IMO MU brass is making a serious roll of the dice on Wojo and the basketball program. I am an optimist by nature, especially regarding MU ball, but I think Wojo has little to no chance of making even a tier below blue blood. Very strongly beginning to believe he is the wrong guy for the job.

Over the past weekend I listened to many solid MU backers complain and complain hard about the program. I was quite surprised by the negative Wojo talk in general in these conversations. Some of these folks I have had heated debates regarding where I believe MU fits into overall image of the university and their tone had changed drastically since the Buzz era. At that time they were far more in the academics at MU is the best sales tool and basketball was a nice marketing tool. Trust me, MU basketball has been, and hopefully will be in the future, the best avenue to improve the university as a whole.

[Norm]

Goose, I am closer to your line of thinking regarding Wojo right now. In fact, I was not wild about his hire in the first place. It's just my opinion that if he does turn it around, then he will become a coach that ACC programs will look at because of his pedigree in that league and the connections that he has there. Thus, if he does have that kind of success here, I don't think he will stick around at MU for the long haul.

[Da 'Lanche]

TAMU

I agree that Wojo has a very long leash. IMO MU brass is making a serious roll of the dice on Wojo and the basketball program. I am an optimist by nature, especially regarding MU ball, but I think Wojo has little to no chance of making even a tier below blue blood. Very strongly beginning to believe he is the wrong guy for the job.

Over the past weekend I listened to many solid MU backers complain and complain hard about the program. I was quite surprised by the negative Wojo talk in general in these conversations. Some of these folks I have had heated debates regarding where I believe MU fits into overall image of the university and their tone had changed drastically since the Buzz era. At that time they were far more in the academics at MU is the best sales tool and basketball was a nice marketing tool. Trust me, MU basketball has been, and hopefully will be in the future, the best avenue to improve the university as a whole.

Out of curiosity...what are the themes or specifics of their complaints?     Is it all related to on court performance or is there more to it in terms of Wojo connecting with alum, etc.?    Just would like to learn the nature of their significant upset and complaints.    Thanks (not baiting...honestly curious).