Holly Ellenson speaks...

[ChicosBailBonds]

Kinda surprised D1 hockey isn't considered a revenue sport.  It's big time at the vast majority of schools that have it.  In fact, can think of two schools that are D1 in hockey and D2 in everything else.

Well, it is a  "revenue" sport, but not a profitable sport.  Technically soccer is a revenue sport because there is a charge to get into the games, but they are so underwater from a profitability stand point.

Latest NCAA numbers, only about 35 schools are profitable in athletics.  Now, a lot of that is because schools spend money at insane rates in the arms race of athletics.  Despite revenues doubling in the last 10 years, their expenses have doubled as well.  Sounds like a gov't run operation.

[Herman Cain]

Well, it is a  "revenue" sport, but not a profitable sport.  Technically soccer is a revenue sport because there is a charge to get into the games, but they are so underwater from a profitability stand point.

Latest NCAA numbers, only about 35 schools are profitable in athletics.  Now, a lot of that is because schools spend money at insane rates in the arms race of athletics.  Despite revenues doubling in the last 10 years, their expenses have doubled as well.  Sounds like a gov't run operation.

Losing impacts attendance at Wisconsin Hockey that historically drew big attendance.

http://host.madison.com/ct/sports/college/hockey/badgers-men-s-hockey-draws-smallest-crowd-in-kohl-center/article_65fcb552-711a-11e5-a242-43324d310fee.html

[StillAWarrior]

Here's the question I'm going to ask, if you would like me to modify it, let me know.


"At the DI level, for all headcount sports, are partial scholarships allowable or must they be full grants only?  Are there any differences between men's hoops and football, say versus the three headcount women's sports?"

I think the distinction that causes confusion is the difference between the financial aid and scholarship.  By using the term "scholarship", I think you might be injecting the same ambiguity into the question.*  Partial "scholarships" are not available in head count sports.  I think everyone understands and agrees on that.  If an athlete gets $1000, he has the "whole" scholarship in a head count sport -- the scholarship cannot be divided.

I think the question is:  "At the D1 level, can an athlete in a head count sport be given some dollar figure less than full grant-in-aid?  For example, do the rules prohibit giving a head count athlete a financial package equivalent of half of full grant-in-aid (understanding that the athlete still counts as a full "counter")?  Are there any differences between men's hoops and football, say versus the three headcount women's sports?"


*Incidentally, in normal conversation, I also would use the term "partial scholarship" to describe this arrangement.  However, over the last year I've learned that this phrase is what causes a lot of the confusion because it causes people to focus on equivalency vs. head count and to say, correctly, that there are no "partials" in head count sports.  Fans (and parents) focus on the money, so they understandably refer to anything less than a full ride as a "partial scholarship."  The NCAA rules on equivalency vs. head count focus on the total number of counters, and since you can't divide head count scholarships people often say that there are no "partial scholarships."

[Jay Bee]

Here's the question I'm going to ask, if you would like me to modify it, let me know.


"At the DI level, for all headcount sports, are partial scholarships allowable or must they be full grants only?  Are there any differences between men's hoops and football, say versus the three headcount women's sports?"

Don't like it. "Partial scholarships" will make some infer you're saying they can be split up.

"For D-I headcount sports, even though it will still count as a 'full scholarship' for counter purposes, could a program give less than full grant-in-aid to a student-athlete?"

My understanding on "head count sports" was any player that gets even $1 in aid from the school counts as one player on scholarship. 

Thus the name: you're counting the number of players on scholarship (a head count), not how many full ride scholarships are being offered.

Ur understanding not good

[StillAWarrior]

Don't like it. "Partial scholarships" will make some infer you're saying they can be split up.

"For D-I headcount sports, even though it will still count as a 'full scholarship' for counter purposes, could a program give less than full grant-in-aid to a student-athlete?"

I think that this is it.  Clear and straight to the point.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Don't like it. "Partial scholarships" will make some infer you're saying they can be split up.

"For D-I headcount sports, even though it will still count as a 'full scholarship' for counter purposes, could a program give less than full grant-in-aid to a student-athlete?"

Ur understanding not good

Fair enough, I'll ask it as you have laid it out.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Losing impacts attendance at Wisconsin Hockey that historically drew big attendance.

http://host.madison.com/ct/sports/college/hockey/badgers-men-s-hockey-draws-smallest-crowd-in-kohl-center/article_65fcb552-711a-11e5-a242-43324d310fee.html

I just looked up the latest stats.   
For all DI men's hockey total revenues were $35.6 million.   Expenses $41.9M.   Net loss of $6.3M
DI Golf generated $39M.  Expenses $66.7M.  Net Loss of almost $30M
DI Men's soccer, $33M.   Expenses  $56.1M.   Net loss of $23M.


Want some really crazy stats.   Expenses for women's soccer?  $147M....almost $100M more than the men. 

In fact, when you exclude basketball and football, DI expenses for all women's sports is ~$1.1 billion.  For the men, it is $703M.   

[StillAWarrior]

My understanding on "head count sports" was any player that gets even $1 in athletic aid from the school counts as one player on scholarship. 

Thus the name: you're counting the number of players on scholarship (a head count), not how many full ride scholarships are being offered.

I think if you add one word, your understanding is correct (not counting things like gear, travel, etc. that even walk-ons receive).  Not sure if that is what you meant, though.

[#UnleashSean]

My understanding on "head count sports" was any player that gets even $1 in aid from the school counts as one player on scholarship. 

Thus the name: you're counting the number of players on scholarship (a head count), not how many full ride scholarships are being offered.

In reality though it basically just becomes a full scholarship. No one's actually going to only give someone a half scholarship if they are still using up a full one. The argument at that point just becomes how anal you want to be about the literal definition.

[GGGG]

Anyone who can't afford to give full scholarships for headcount sports, assuming that is allowed, shouldn't be participating in D1 athletics anyway.

[StillAWarrior]

Anyone who can't afford to give full scholarships for headcount sports, assuming that is allowed, shouldn't be participating in D1 athletics anyway.

If you're including those who cannot afford to fund all of the allowed scholarships (or decline to do so), I believe at present that might include the majority of the Big East -- including the reigning national champions in basketball.

[GGGG]

No the Big East members can afford to, they just choose not to.  That's probably too subtle a difference to really defend however...

I guess I was just thinking about D1 schools that would give a basketball player 2/3 of a scholarship.

[StillAWarrior]

No the Big East members can afford to, they just choose not to.  That's probably too subtle a difference to really defend however...

I guess I was just thinking about D1 schools that would give a basketball player 2/3 of a scholarship.

Agreed.  And that's why I said, "or decline to do so."  Your point is well taken.

I am still very curious to know whether there are MBB programs out there that are less than fully funded (e.g., offering less money or intentionally not using all their scholarships).  I'm doubtful, but it honestly wouldn't surprise me if some of the bottom dwellers in one-bid conferences aren't fully funded.  But, as you said, maybe they shouldn't be participating in D1.

[4everwarriors]

How is this split up for transgenders, hey?

[Jay Bee]

How is this split up for transgenders, hey?

Tweet Sam Dekker and ax him

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Tweet Sam Dekker and ax him

Sam's a tranny?

[Coleman]

Well, it is a  "revenue" sport, but not a profitable sport.  Technically soccer is a revenue sport because there is a charge to get into the games, but they are so underwater from a profitability stand point.

Latest NCAA numbers, only about 35 schools are profitable in athletics.  Now, a lot of that is because schools spend money at insane rates in the arms race of athletics.  Despite revenues doubling in the last 10 years, their expenses have doubled as well.  Sounds like a gov't run operation.

Are we one of them?

[Coleman]

I just looked up the latest stats.   
For all DI men's hockey total revenues were $35.6 million.   Expenses $41.9M.   Net loss of $6.3M
DI Golf generated $39M.  Expenses $66.7M.  Net Loss of almost $30M
DI Men's soccer, $33M.   Expenses  $56.1M.   Net loss of $23M.


Want some really crazy stats.   Expenses for women's soccer?  $147M....almost $100M more than the men. 

In fact, when you exclude basketball and football, DI expenses for all women's sports is ~$1.1 billion.  For the men, it is $703M.

Are there more women's soccer teams than men's? That would seem to explain it, if so.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Are we one of them?

We list ourselves as flat.  $28.6M in revenues, $28.6M in expenses. 


http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstDetails.aspx?756e697469643d32333931303526796561723d323031342673656172636843726974657269613d3331336436643631373237313735363537343734363532363334336432373537343932373236373236343734336433343266333233343266333233303331333632303334336133323331336133333334323035303464267264743d342f32342f3230313620343a32313a333420504d

[Coleman]

We list ourselves as flat


http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstDetails.aspx?756e697469643d32333931303526796561723d323031342673656172636843726974657269613d3331336436643631373237313735363537343734363532363334336432373537343932373236373236343734336433343266333233343266333233303331333632303334336133323331336133333334323035303464267264743d342f32342f3230313620343a32313a333420504d

Link not working for me, but I'll take your word for it. Thanks.

[GGGG]

Are there more women's soccer teams than men's? That would seem to explain it, if so.

By a long shot.  Men's soccer has 204 teams at D1.  Women have 327.  Furthermore men have a scholarship limit of 9.9 while women have 14.0.

[GGGG]

Want some really crazy stats.   Expenses for women's soccer?  $147M....almost $100M more than the men. 

In fact, when you exclude basketball and football, DI expenses for all women's sports is ~$1.1 billion.  For the men, it is $703M.   

Well of course.  Schools spend a lot of $$$ to balance out football scholarships.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Link not working for me, but I'll take your word for it. Thanks.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Well of course.  Schools spend a lot of $$$ to balance out football scholarships.

The average fan doesn't know this.  I realize many here do.  But the average fan also talks about how unfair it is that certain guys aren't getting paid and have no clue the opportunities being given to hundreds of thousands of athletes due to the way it is structured right now.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Are there more women's soccer teams than men's? That would seem to explain it, if so.

Yes, and many more scholarships.  Same for volleyball, etc, etc.  If you are a dude and don't play basketball or football, your chances at a DI scholarship are pretty small....much smaller than a female athlete.