MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: WarriorPride68 on April 21, 2016, 05:50:24 PM
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https://twitter.com/hollyjelle/status/723274418882002944
(https://i.imgflip.com/12wfap.jpg)
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Classy
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Classy
Sticking up for her son, how is what she said bad in any way?
From the outside I don't think there is any reason for her not to be pissed if she felt Wojo lied to her family.
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Classy was probably a poor word choice. Passive aggressive would probably be more appropriate
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Matt Velazquez @Matt_Velazquez 44m44 minutes ago
Marquette just sent out a press release on Wally. It included that freshman walk-on Christian Haffner has been granted release.
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Without knowing the back story of Wally leaving it is hard to be critical of a Mom supporting her son. I am a win first guy and if this ends up being smoke and mirrors with Wally I would be disappointed.
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For those who don't use Twitter / click links:
Holly Ellenson (mom) quoted the following tweet and said "Smoke and Mirrors"
@GoodmanESPN: Marquette’s Wally Ellenson no longer in men’s hoops program, will remain on scholarship w/track and field. Brother Henry left after one year
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Matt Velazquez @Matt_Velazquez 44m44 minutes ago
Marquette just sent out a press release on Wally. It included that freshman walk-on Christian Haffner has been granted release.
And the dominoes start to fall.
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Wojo knows much more than me, but....
While I'd let Wally go for Young or Gill, I'm not sure it was worth it for Katin Reinhardt.
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Wojo had to know that he was dealing with an "involved" family from the day he signed Wally. The entire Ellenson family had a firm grasp on wojo's balls since that day and have basically been calling the shots ever since.
Where do you draw the line? Say Wally wants to focus on track this summer and join the team in August. Is that fair to the other guys who have been busting their ass all summer? I can 1000% guarantee there would be friction when Wally is riding the pine his senior season. Was that also part of the agreement when Henry signed ? The whole Ellenson ordeal was absurd and tiring.
It's maddening how soft and fragile the whole Ellenson family is. It's lame and phony. As far how Henry feels about this? Who the hell cares? He was a one and done who played on a team that couldn't even make the post season. Nobody even knows where one and dones went to school.
Wally got more than a fair shake at MU. He had like one good game and wojo praised him in the post game and started him the next game. That next game you ask? That turned out to be one of the more embarrassing home losses in recent Marquette history.
Point is: if the ellensons feel slighted...then screw them and good riddance. Good for wojo. Let's bring a better player in and get back to winning.
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Wojo had to know that he was dealing with an "involved" family from the day he signed Wally. The entire Ellenson family had a firm grasp and wojo's balls since that day and have basically been calling the shots ever since.
Where do you draw the line? Say Wally wants to focus on track this summer and join the team in August. Is that fair to the other guys who have been busting their ass all summer? I can 1000% guarantee there would be friction when Wally is riding the pine his senior season. Was that also part of the agreement when Henry signed ? The whole Ellenson ordeal was absurd and tiring.
It's maddening how soft and fragile the whole Ellenson family is. It's lame and phony. As far how Henry feels about this? Who the hell cares? He was a one and done who played on a team that couldn't even make the post season. Nobody even knows where one and dones went to school.
Wally got more than a fair shake at MU. He had like one good game and wojo praised him in the post game and started him the next game. That next game you ask? That turned out to be one of the more embarrassing home losses in recent Marquette history.
Point is: if the ellensons feel slighted...then screw them and good riddance. Good for wojo. Let's bring a better player in and get back to winning.
Strong take.
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Wojo knows much more than me, but....
While I'd let Wally go for Young or Gill, I'm not sure it was worth it for Katin Reinhardt.
Why? Katin is light years better
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Can't blame her, her kid got a raw deal.
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Why? Katin is light years better
I think what he is getting at is that it is not worth the potential fallout for a 1 year rental. Hard to disagree
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I think what he is getting at is that it is not worth the potential fallout for a 1 year rental. Hard to disagree
Bingo. Especially one whose rebounding is questionable.
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Wojo had to know that he was dealing with an "involved" family from the day he signed Wally. The entire Ellenson family had a firm grasp and wojo's balls since that day and have basically been calling the shots ever since.
Where do you draw the line? Say Wally wants to focus on track this summer and join the team in August. Is that fair to the other guys who have been busting their ass all summer? I can 1000% guarantee there would be friction when Wally is riding the pine his senior season. Was that also part of the agreement when Henry signed ? The whole Ellenson ordeal was absurd and tiring.
It's maddening how soft and fragile the whole Ellenson family is. It's lame and phony. As far how Henry feels about this? Who the hell cares? He was a one and done who played on a team that couldn't even make the post season. Nobody even knows where one and dones went to school.
Wally got more than a fair shake at MU. He had like one good game and wojo praised him in the post game and started him the next game. That next game you ask? That turned out to be one of the more embarrassing home losses in recent Marquette history.
Point is: if the ellensons feel slighted...then screw them and good riddance. Good for wojo. Let's bring a better player in and get back to winning.
I get the argument that if he won't be here working on his game this summer that's not fair. I think that's a good point. The underlined stuff hits me as ingratitude in the extreme, however.
A bigger issue than the Ellensons is how this plays with the families of future recruits.
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Can't blame her, her kid got a raw deal.
Maybe.
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I think what he is getting at is that it is not worth the potential fallout for a 1 year rental. Hard to disagree
But so is Gill.
Reinhardt helps the team win now
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https://twitter.com/hollyjelle/status/723274418882002944
(https://i.imgflip.com/12wfap.jpg)
if that's all she said, ? i mean she could have unloaded with both barrels. i'm not a mind reader. i like to hear it like it is. smoke n mirrors could mean many different things. like, maybe they played a little smokey with MU? if she is bummed because wally isn't on the hoops team, then she should have told henry he has to stay. wally still has his free ride with track, so what the hey
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To me the main questions are:
1) Would Wally still have a place on the team if he was able to accommodate the exact requirements of all of the players. I.E. if track commitments interfered with prep for next season?
2) What was communicated to Wally and family regarding the point above? Did Wojo go back on his word? Was it an error of omission in that the possibility was never discussed? Or is it sour grapes on the part of the Ellenson's?
I'm guessing we may not find out the answer to #2, which is key.
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Wojo gave the Brothers a chance to play college hoops together. It is not like HS, D-1 programs need big-time commitment and a coach"s job hinges on winning. I think Ellenson's got what they wanted from this year and Wally is a big-time track star whose best shot is to concentrate on his best sport.
good luck to the whole family
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(http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/11-22-2014/c32jfB.gif)
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Ok, Henry .. how about you leave us after a year, and with your new millions, pay for your brother at MU one year so he can walk on, and MU can field a better team after your departure.
Fair enough?
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I know people say families never pay for good basketball players to be walk-ons, but I still don't understand how a school like Syracuse gets 18 people on their bench...5 crappy walk-ons? (maybe more if they've lost any scholarships)
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/roster/_/id/183/syracuse-orange
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Here's my theory;
The Ellenson brothers planned (and probably told) Wojo they were going to play together for two years. Henry had a great individual season and went back on his word because who wouldn't if millions are on the line. Wojo got pissed that Henry threw a wrench into his plans (obviously he wasn't looking for a PF until very recently) and had to come up with another plan to remain competitive next year. That plan includes making Wally drop out of the program and focus on the high jump. Wally and the Ellenson's don't like the new plan. Wojo says what the heck, you guys put me in this position and forces them to do it anyway.
I think that makes the most sense with all the info out there. Childish by both sides...yes. But it makes sense.
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Like Wally and Henry, she has every right to be upset. Let me say this, I don't care, but watching some of you folks contort yourselves to rationalize this into something other than what it is, is downright comical. Wally's value to the team declared for the NBA draft a week or two ago. He isnt any good, and Wojo cut him loose, because his scholarship is more valuable than he is. That's it. Period. End of Story.
Why some of you want to believe there is more to the story than that, I assume is to make yourselves feel better about Wojo and your Marquette fandom. Duane Wilson said it best...shady business. Its the business all parties involved have chosen, so that's life. Its also why I am less and less of a college sports fan every day.
Like I said earlier today, give me a guy like Calipari over Wojo, Crean, Buzz, etc. He calls the sham system what it is, and really makes no attempt to pretend to be something he's not, like most of these jokers. Its a professional sport. Most people just aren't willing to admit it. Bad for business.
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I think what he is getting at is that it is not worth the potential fallout for a 1 year rental. Hard to disagree
Really easy to disagree. Reinhardt will be a starter for us next season and will help us get back to the postseason. The fallout from this will be over in the blink of an eye.
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Here's my theory;
The Ellenson brothers planned (and probably told) Wojo they were going to play together for two years. Henry had a great individual season and went back on his word because who wouldn't if millions are on the line. Wojo got pissed that Henry threw a wrench into his plans (obviously he wasn't looking for a PF until very recently) and had to come up with another plan to remain competitive next year. That plan includes making Wally drop out of the program and focus on the high jump. Wally and the Ellenson's don't like the new plan. Wojo says what the heck, you guys put me in this position and forces them to do it anyway.
I think that makes the most sense with all the info out there. Childish by both sides...yes. But it makes sense.
No, it doesn't make any sense. This is completely wrong.
Hank was gowne from the day he committed to MU after 1 year. There was never a doubt about that, to anyone, and his departure was never a surprise, to anyone.
Wojo didn't force Walter to focus on high jump. Wojo forced Walter to make a decision about where he needed to focus all of his attention on. He didn't allow him to split his attention between 2 sports and allow Walter to miss certain events (practice, weights, etc.) that the other 12 scholarship basketball players were forced to be at by being on scholarship.
If the Ellensons have sour grapes about it I'm sorry to hear that. Thank you to Hank for spending your 1 year here and you're welcome to the family for your $130K in tuition money.
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Here's my theory;
The Ellenson brothers planned (and probably told) Wojo they were going to play together for two years. Henry had a great individual season and went back on his word because who wouldn't if millions are on the line...
If your theory is correct, Wojo should be fired tonight because he's too much f an idiot to be a coach.
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I guess this means Ella isn't going to sign with Marquette, either.
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No, it doesn't make any sense. This is completely wrong.
Hank was gowne from the day he committed to MU after 1 year. There was never a doubt about that, to anyone, and his departure was never a surprise, to anyone.
Wojo didn't force Walter to focus on high jump. Wojo forced Walter to make a decision about where he needed to focus all of his attention on. He didn't allow him to split his attention between 2 sports and allow Walter to miss certain events (practice, weights, etc.) that the other 12 scholarship basketball players were forced to be at by being on scholarship.
If the Ellensons have sour grapes about it I'm sorry to hear that. Thank you to Hank for spending your 1 year here and you're welcome to the family for your $130K in tuition money.
This guy gets it. The parents are a MAJOR... M-A-J-O-R problem. It's tolerable when the kid is a lotto pick but when he is the 13th man then the juice is no longer worth the squeeze.
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So,
Wally still maintains a full scholarship ride at MU.
Wally can now concentrate on his Olympic ability as a track/field athlete full time.
Wally probably told by staff that his minutes will be non existent next year due to incoming recruits.
Wally's family upset over his basketball career, when in reality next year it would be sitting at end of bench. He would not even have a shot at NBDL or a Europe gig. I for one, if my son was a potential Olympic candidate, would surely encourage him to totally commit to Olympic aspirations.
Maybe Wally liked the camaraderie of being on the basketball squad, but so be it.
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This guy gets it. The parents are a MAJOR... M-A-J-O-R problem. It's tolerable when the kid is a lotto pick but when he is the 13th man then the juice is no longer worth the squeeze.
I'm not saying the parents are even at fault. I understand why they're upset. Their kid likes the game of basketball, he was on the team with his brother, he wanted to continue playing. But when the brother is gone and the son is not a rotational guy, you can't also be away from the team during offseason workouts and be surprised when the coach asks you to commit one way or the other. All in or All out. Sure it sucks, but at the same time, is it really all that unfair? In my mind, not at all.
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No, it doesn't make any sense. This is completely wrong.
Hank was gowne from the day he committed to MU after 1 year. There was never a doubt about that, to anyone, and his departure was never a surprise, to anyone.
Wojo didn't force Walter to focus on high jump. Wojo forced Walter to make a decision about where he needed to focus all of his attention on. He didn't allow him to split his attention between 2 sports and allow Walter to miss certain events (practice, weights, etc.) that the other 12 scholarship basketball players were forced to be at by being on scholarship.
If the Ellensons have sour grapes about it I'm sorry to hear that. Thank you to Hank for spending your 1 year here and you're welcome to the family for your $130K in tuition money.
I think that's where I'm at. Moreover, we also scheduled an exhibition with Bumblecrap U. just so the family could have a reunion weekend AND we found a way for Wally to remain a full scholarship athlete to finish up his degree next year. The ONLY thing we did to him was to say some other more qualified athlete gets his basketball jersey next year.
Wait a minute..... Wasn't Reinhardt pictured wearing #22? It all fits now. ;D
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To be honest....Wojo created this mess...Had MU made the NCAA's this past season do you think ANY of this would be an issue?? The answer is no. Why?? Let's say MU goes 23-7 and cruises into the NCAA's. He knows Henry is leaving but looks at the rest of the roster and says..."yeah, the core is good enough to make the tourney again next year", and simply replaces Wally with Reinhardt. Now you have Rowsey eligible...and it's an NCAA team again WITH Wally. My point is...Wojo didn't upgrade the talent enough his first two years, and badly miscalculated how much Henry would help this last year(you can argue whether it's on him or on the team itself, but it's HIS team), so now he is in "scramble" mode because he's feeling pressure to win and win now, thus he's recruiting in that manner. The thing that upsets me the most about it is it's apparently taken him 3 years to figure that out.
This all could have been avoided very easily...WIN F'N games. Period. It solves everything. This is HIS bed, and he has to lie in it now.
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No, it doesn't make any sense. This is completely wrong.
Hank was gowne from the day he committed to MU after 1 year. There was never a doubt about that, to anyone, and his departure was never a surprise, to anyone.
Wojo didn't force Walter to focus on high jump. Wojo forced Walter to make a decision about where he needed to focus all of his attention on. He didn't allow him to split his attention between 2 sports and allow Walter to miss certain events (practice, weights, etc.) that the other 12 scholarship basketball players were forced to be at by being on scholarship.
If the Ellensons have sour grapes about it I'm sorry to hear that. Thank you to Hank for spending your 1 year here and you're welcome to the family for your $130K in tuition money.
I agree that this is most likely how the scenario unfolded. At the same time, this situation must have been discussed previously. It was obvious this crossroad was approaching.
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So,
Wally still maintains a full scholarship ride at MU.
Wally can now concentrate on his Olympic ability as a track/field athlete full time.
Wally probably told by staff that his minutes will be non existent next year due to incoming recruits.
Wally's family upset over his basketball career, when in reality next year it would be sitting at end of bench. He would not even have a shot at NBDL or a Europe gig. I for one, if my son was a potential Olympic candidate, would surely encourage him to totally commit to Olympic aspirations.
Maybe Wally liked the camaraderie of being on the basketball squad, but so be it.
Really stop with the "Wally doesn't know how good he has it" rationalizations.
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To be honest....Wojo created this mess...Had MU made the NCAA's this past season do you think ANY of this would be an issue?? The answer is no. Why?? Let's say MU goes 23-7 and cruises into the NCAA's. He knows Henry is leaving but looks at the rest of the roster and says..."yeah, the core is good enough to make the tourney again next year", and simply replaces Wally with Reinhardt. Now you have Rowsey eligible...and it's an NCAA team again WITH Wally. My point is...Wojo didn't upgrade the talent enough his first two years, and badly miscalculated how much Henry would help this last year(you can argue whether it's on him or on the team itself, but it's HIS team), so now he is in "scramble" mode because he's feeling pressure to win and win now, thus he's recruiting in that manner. The thing that upsets me the most about it is it's apparently taken him 3 years to figure that out.
This all could have been avoided very easily...WIN F'N games. Period. It solves everything. This is HIS bed, and he has to lie in it now.
Wojo is feeling absolutely no pressure whatsoever. And rightfully so. We're heading into year 3. So your entire theory goes right out the door.
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This is why twitta tracka is a lock to win the meme tournament.
OP, can you add the scrolling text to the bomb graphic?
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edited: Going to wait and see if we hear some of the details too many moving parts at this point.
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Let's also not forget he's getting possibly the first ever full ride track scholarship in MU history!
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Really stop with the "Wally doesn't know how good he has it" rationalizations.
Sultan, I had totally been on your side until I learned that they created a full scholarship for him, possibly to the detriment of other track athletes (not sure, of course). I would have thought it totally wrong to not facilitate his graduation on Marquette's dime because it would have been impossible for him to transfer and get a scholarship because of the 6 year limit. But they are facilitating his undergrad degree. They are simply telling him that his way to earn that degree for free is to do what he does best.
In business, sometime you're told your assignment is in another city because of a reorg. You can take it if you like. That's way different than 'you're gone, we're bringing in our own folks so pack up right now while we watch so you don't take the stapler.'
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Let's also not forget he's getting possibly the first ever full ride track scholarship in MU history!
Given his talent in track, that's not a stretch.
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Wojo is feeling absolutely no pressure whatsoever. And rightfully so. We're heading into year 3. So your entire theory goes right out the door.
Pressure from himself...but he SHOULD be feeling pressure from admin too. Season tickets will drop again this year, donations to B&G will drop...MU fans are tired of the losing...and with every reason to be. If the admin isn't starting to feel the heat because of the loss of revenue and realys that to Wojo in whatever manner necessary, then they are being negligent and quite honestly, their commitment to the MU BB program(the life blood of the University), isn't where it needs to be. there hasn't been a decent, commited admn since Father Wild/Cords. At least not to the extent they were.
The program lost a lot of luster and momentum under the sham that was Pilarsz and Larry, and it's going ot take a long time to dig out of the mess they created.
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Sultan, I had totally been on your side until I learned that they created a full scholarship for him, possibly to the detriment of other track athletes (not sure, of course). I would have thought it totally wrong to not facilitate his graduation on Marquette's dime because it would have been impossible for him to transfer and get a scholarship because of the 6 year limit. But they are facilitating his undergrad degree. They are simply telling him that his way to earn that degree for free is to do what he does best.
In business, sometime you're told your assignment is in another city because of a reorg. You can take it if you like. That's way different than 'you're gone, we're bringing in our own folks so pack up right now while we watch so you don't take the stapler.'
I'm not saying it didn't work out for him. I mean he's not living in poverty either. I just don't like the "well its better for him" rationalizations. He's an adult. He knows what he wants and what might be better for him.
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Let's also not forget he's getting possibly the first ever full ride track scholarship in MU history!
Pat Smith
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Pat Smith
Maybe Ralph Metcalf, too?
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Maybe Ralph Metcalf, too?
One of Marquette's true greats. Olympian overshadowed by Jessie Owens. Went on to serve in Congress.
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Pressure from himself...but he SHOULD be feeling pressure from admin too. Season tickets will drop again this year, donations to B&G will drop...MU fans are tired of the losing...and with every reason to be. If the admin isn't starting to feel the heat because of the loss of revenue and realys that to Wojo in whatever manner necessary, then they are being negligent and quite honestly, their commitment to the MU BB program(the life blood of the University), isn't where it needs to be. there hasn't been a decent, commited admn since Father Wild/Cords. At least not to the extent they were.
The program lost a lot of luster and momentum under the sham that was Pilarsz and Larry, and it's going ot take a long time to dig out of the mess they created.
You open the post by saying wojo should be feeling the pressure and then conclude it by conceding that it will take a long time to turn it around? Wojos seat is very cool right now. He had nothing to work with in year 1 and the 8th youngest team in the country in year 2. Let's revisit the state of the program after year 3.
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No, it doesn't make any sense. This is completely wrong.
Hank was gowne from the day he committed to MU after 1 year. There was never a doubt about that, to anyone, and his departure was never a surprise, to anyone.
Wojo didn't force Walter to focus on high jump. Wojo forced Walter to make a decision about where he needed to focus all of his attention on. He didn't allow him to split his attention between 2 sports and allow Walter to miss certain events (practice, weights, etc.) that the other 12 scholarship basketball players were forced to be at by being on scholarship.
If the Ellensons have sour grapes about it I'm sorry to hear that. Thank you to Hank for spending your 1 year here and you're welcome to the family for your $130K in tuition money.
If this is how it played out I completely agree with you. The only question to me is if this possibility was ever broached during the recruiting process. (I.E. Depending on circumstances we may ask you to commit fully to the team at the expense of track).
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Thank you. The rationalizations are just crazy. It's obvious what happened and Wojo damn well better win after burning a bridge with MU's first first lottery pick in 13 years.
Like Wally and Henry, she has every right to be upset. Let me say this, I don't care, but watching some of you folks contort yourselves to rationalize this into something other than what it is, is downright comical. Wally's value to the team declared for the NBA draft a week or two ago. He isnt any good, and Wojo cut him loose, because his scholarship is more valuable than he is. That's it. Period. End of Story.
Why some of you want to believe there is more to the story than that, I assume is to make yourselves feel better about Wojo and your Marquette fandom. Duane Wilson said it best...shady business. Its the business all parties involved have chosen, so that's life. Its also why I am less and less of a college sports fan every day.
Like I said earlier today, give me a guy like Calipari over Wojo, Crean, Buzz, etc. He calls the sham system what it is, and really makes no attempt to pretend to be something he's not, like most of these jokers. Its a professional sport. Most people just aren't willing to admit it. Bad for business.
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I am trying to remember the new rule, which I think started that started this year. It had something to do with guaranteeing players a scholarship if they were cut from the team and they decided not to transfer. It might of been a power 6 rule, but I thought MU indicated they would follow what the power 6 were going to do. In that case do not laud Wojo for getting him a full track schoarship, because he was guaranteed a scholarship anyways. Anyone remeber the exact rule. I know the change was discussed on this board sometime in the last 12 months.
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I am trying to remember the new rule, which I think started that started this year. It had something to do with guaranteeing players a scholarship if they were cut from the team and they decided not to transfer. It might of been a power 6 rule, but I thought MU indicated they would follow what the power 6 were going to do. In that case do not laud Wojo for getting him a full track schoarship, because he was guaranteed a scholarship anyways. Anyone remeber the exact rule. I know the change was discussed on this board sometime in the last 12 months.
It's a simple as he can qualify for a non revenue scholarship if he doesn't participate in a revenue sport.
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I am trying to remember the new rule, which I think started that started this year. It had something to do with guaranteeing players a scholarship if they were cut from the team and they decided not to transfer. It might of been a power 6 rule, but I thought MU indicated they would follow what the power 6 were going to do. In that case do not laud Wojo for getting him a full track schoarship, because he was guaranteed a scholarship anyways. Anyone remeber the exact rule. I know the change was discussed on this board sometime in the last 12 months.
Yes, I recall this. It's a rule you're making up. Congrats!
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Yes, I recall this. It's a rule you're making up. Congrats!
He only makes up the easy rules.
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I was hoping that Wally would develop into a Joe Fulce type player — crazy athleticism, great teammate, high energy off the bench, good rebounder and defender.
There's a good chance that player would have a place on this roster. But apparently Wally isn't that player.
It's Wojo's responsibility — to the team, the athletic department, the university and the fans — to field a roster with the best 13 scholarship players possible. Leaving the team this way is tough. Wally and his family don't have to like it. But all things considered, I think it's fair.
I hope Wally stays at Marquette to compete with the indoor track team and qualifies for the Olympics. Whatever he decides, I wish him the best of luck.
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Can't blame her, her kid got a raw deal.
What raw deal? He's getting a free college education. Who else wanted him for basketball? Not anyone I remember.
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If this is how it played out I completely agree with you. The only question to me is if this possibility was ever broached during the recruiting process. (I.E. Depending on circumstances we may ask you to commit fully to the team at the expense of track).
A recruiting process that took place in early 2014? I feel confident Wally was told track was fine unless it interfered with basketball and that wasn't something he was hearing from too many (if any) other schools. But I don't think any player is promised minutes, his pecking order on the team, or his place two or more seasons down the road. In that regard, it would be more unfair to unload Sandy or Sacar right now although I suppose both would land elsewhere with full basketball rides. I understand that this isn't Wally's ultimate preference which was to play basketball and high jump in a marriage really not perfect for either. Ultimately, Wojo decided not to make that option available. I'd be hard pressed to assume he could have had that all figured out 2 years ago, long before Henry committed and then headed off to the NBA leaving us without a viable power forward.
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This seems crappy as hell. Way to completely use the kid. This exemplifies the worst of the NCAA. This just smells terrible.
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This seems crappy as hell. Way to completely use the kid. This exemplifies the worst of the NCAA. This just smells terrible.
Ha! He was so used. Every time I make my student loan payment I wish I was used like this.
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Interesting new poster. 8-)
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Obviously Wally should've come out as tranny a few days ago. No way the admin would cut him with the lib media backlash coming.
your loss dude. next
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A recruiting process that took place in early 2014? I feel confident Wally was told track was fine unless it interfered with basketball and that wasn't something he was hearing from too many (if any) other schools. But I don't think any player is promised minutes, his pecking order on the team, or his place two or more seasons down the road. In that regard, it would be more unfair to unload Sandy or Sacar right now although I suppose both would land elsewhere with full basketball rides. I understand that this isn't Wally's ultimate preference which was to play basketball and high jump in a marriage really not perfect for either. Ultimately, Wojo decided not to make that option available. I'd be hard pressed to assume he could have had that all figured out 2 years ago, long before Henry committed and then headed off to the NBA leaving us without a viable power forward.
I understand what you're saying, and while you can't predict the future, Wojo is or should be smart enough to lay out all possible scenarios. Of course maybe he doesn't get Wally and Henry in the first place if he had done so.
Overall I'm not particularly upset aside from some minor concerns of not having HE as a recruiting asset.
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This seems crappy as hell. Way to completely use the kid. This exemplifies the worst of the NCAA. This just smells terrible.
You're wasting your time. The vast majority here are falling all over themselves to defend good ol' MU. Of course, if UW had pulled a stunt like this....
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Ha! He was so used. Every time I make my student loan payment I wish I was used like this.
Wally would have gotten free tuition wherever he went. Wojo used him to get Henry, seems plain and simple. I also doubt (though admit I have no source) that Wojo told Wally that he had a scholly as long as Henry was at MU. Nice example of Cura Personalis.
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You're wasting your time. The vast majority here are falling all over themselves to defend good ol' MU. Of course, if UW had pulled a stunt like this....
Your right, I would have. Damn rodents are sketchy.
Still think the big question is if Wally had a choice to fully commit to the team or not. If he was given a choice of preparing for next year or training for the Olympics, I'm fine with what happened.
In life we don't get everything we want. We have to make tough choices some times.
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Wally would have gotten free tuition wherever he went. Wojo used him to get Henry, seems plain and simple. I also doubt (though admit I have no source) that Wojo told Wally that he had a scholly as long as Henry was at MU. Nice example of Cura Personalis.
Wojo's job is to win basketball games. He needs to do what is necessary within the rules to do that. If a player doesn't help in that goal he should find an upgrade. Players will do what is in their best interest and so should coaches.
As for Wally, I don't recall a long list of schools lined up to give him a ball scholarship after he left MN.
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So does this mean MU gets another commitment in the next few days? If not, why make this move?
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Are we now supposed to pretend like Wojo didn't know Wally was going to compete in track?
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So does this mean MU gets another commitment in the next few days? If not, why make this move?
Maybe he was tired of hearing from the pain in the ass parents.
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Wally would have gotten free tuition wherever he went. Wojo used him to get Henry, seems plain and simple. I also doubt (though admit I have no source) that Wojo told Wally that he had a scholly as long as Henry was at MU. Nice example of Cura Personalis.
You can argue Wally used us too. It works both ways.
He wasn't going to play anywhere half decent without his Little bro
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Are we now supposed to pretend like Wojo didn't know Wally was going to compete in track?
Good to see the UW fans are concerned about the Ellensons.
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Didn't John Ellenson transfer from MU? Not that it's relevant to this situation, but don't recall his loyalty to MU running real deep....
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You can argue Wally used us too. It works both ways.
He wasn't going to play anywhere half decent without his Little bro
Really? Seems like a stretch. You don't think a guy like Wally could have gotten a scholly, and even playing time at a different school? You think there weren't AAC or A-10 teams that could have used him?
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You know where stuff like this happens? Big time programs.
Aside from MU message boards and the Badger boards no one cares. And it happens at Madison as well so who cares what they have to say.
If Wally's replacement kicks ass, few here will care.
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You can argue Wally used us too. It works both ways.
He wasn't going to play anywhere half decent without his Little bro
Freshman year at Minnesota, he played a grand total of 48 minutes. (He did break his hand before the start of the year and miss the first 11 games)
Sophomore year at Minnesota he played 62 minutes, making only seven FGs all season. He did not play any of the B1G conference season or the NIT run. (if memory serves me correctly, wasn't Rich Pitino benching him because he refused to quit Track?)
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/61265/wally-ellenson
Based on these stats, he would have been lucky to get a look from a Horizon league team.
So, who was using who? No possible way Wally can "upgrade" his basketball program from Minnesota to MU without his brother after those two seasons.
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Really? Seems like a stretch. You don't think a guy like Wally could have gotten a scholly, and even playing time at a different school? You think there weren't AAC or A-10 teams that could have used him?
Maybe. But that's the point. He didn't want to go to a crappy school. He had his options. He went to a school he very well shoulda known was out of his league(couldn't get off the bench at a worse school) and he came because of his brother.
Both sides used each other
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Like Wally and Henry, she has every right to be upset. Let me say this, I don't care, but watching some of you folks contort yourselves to rationalize this into something other than what it is, is downright comical. Wally's value to the team declared for the NBA draft a week or two ago. He isnt any good, and Wojo cut him loose, because his scholarship is more valuable than he is. That's it. Period. End of Story.
Why some of you want to believe there is more to the story than that, I assume is to make yourselves feel better about Wojo and your Marquette fandom. Duane Wilson said it best...shady business. Its the business all parties involved have chosen, so that's life. Its also why I am less and less of a college sports fan every day.
Like I said earlier today, give me a guy like Calipari over Wojo, Crean, Buzz, etc. He calls the sham system what it is, and really makes no attempt to pretend to be something he's not, like most of these jokers. Its a professional sport. Most people just aren't willing to admit it. Bad for business.
Yes it is a professional sport, except only the labor force has very rigid restrictions on their compensation.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/13/sports/ncaabasketball/ncaa-extends-basketball-deal-with-cbs-sports-and-turner-through-2032.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/13/sports/ncaabasketball/ncaa-extends-basketball-deal-with-cbs-sports-and-turner-through-2032.html)
The N.C.A.A. announced a new agreement on Tuesday with CBS Sports and Turner that extended the broadcast rights deal for the Division I men’s basketball tournament another eight years, through 2032, at a rate that will eventually increase to more than $1 billion per year.
While the previous 14-year deal, priced at $10.8 billion (roughly $770 million per year), lasted through 2024, the eight-year extension will add another $8.8 billion.
18 billion for just the TV rights to the tournament over the next 15 years.
This is big business masquerading itself as amateur student athletics. Should be no surprise then when things get cutthroat towards these student athletes. Coaches want to keep their big money contracts and to do so, they have to win and thus many will walk that shady line in an effort to get those wins.
Hell, look what goes on in big time college football. It nay be more cutthroat than the NFL in regards to treating the athletes as little more than money printing pawns, but at least in the NFL the minimum salary is 450K.
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Maybe. But that's the point. He didn't want to go to a crappy school. He had his options. He went to a school he very well shoulda known was out of his league(couldn't get off the bench at a worse school) and he came because of his brother.
Both sides used each other
Oh get off it. It isn't like he chose an elite academic school to attend, heck, he didn't even chose an elite basketball program. There is nothing that makes schools from the A-10, AAC, CUSA, crappy schools. If Wojo had told him, "if Henry leaves after 1 season, I will cut you", do you think he still would have chosen MU? Do you think Henry would have?
Even if there was mutual using (which -- clearly--I don't think is the case, Wally could have gone to any school in the country for track, and most schools for Bball), why aren't an institution like MU and a coach like Wojo held to a higher standard than a college kid?
This seems to be scuzzy as hell. And if MU wants to have a coach who engages in questionable, win above all else behavior, he sure as hell better win. In my opinion, MU clearly exploited Wally for access to Henry. Maybe I'm wrong. I certainly seem to be in the minority, but this really leaves a rotten taste in my mouth.
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Yes it is a professional sport, except only the labor force has very rigid restrictions on their compensation.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/13/sports/ncaabasketball/ncaa-extends-basketball-deal-with-cbs-sports-and-turner-through-2032.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/13/sports/ncaabasketball/ncaa-extends-basketball-deal-with-cbs-sports-and-turner-through-2032.html)
18 billion for just the TV rights to the tournament over the next 15 years.
This is big business masquerading itself as amateur student athletics. Should be no surprise then when things get cutthroat towards these student athletes. Coaches want to keep their big money contracts and to do so, they have to win and thus many will walk that shady line in an effort to get those wins.
Hell, look what goes on in big time college football. It nay be more cutthroat than the NFL in regards to treating the athletes as little more than money printing pawns, but at least in the NFL the minimum salary is 450K.
99% of that revenue to provide opportunities for folks like the MU men's and women's lacrosse teams, the soccer teams, etc, etc.
Professional sport? I've seen what supposedly happened here all the way down at Little League and CYO ball. Get Jimmy's brother to play, and Jimmy will play too. Stop with dramatics of the professional sports nonsense. There are 5,000 DI basketball players each year, with over 90% of them never sniffing anything professional at all as it relates to professional basketball ever in their lives.
I'd like a lot more information on what went down, but it looks squirmy as hell.
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Really? Seems like a stretch. You don't think a guy like Wally could have gotten a scholly, and even playing time at a different school? You think there weren't AAC or A-10 teams that could have used him?
Honestly, no.
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Oh get off it. It isn't like he chose an elite academic school to attend, heck, he didn't even chose an elite basketball program. There is nothing that makes schools from the A-10, AAC, CUSA, crappy schools. If Wojo had told him, "if Henry leaves after 1 season, I will cut you", do you think he still would have chosen MU? Do you think Henry would have?
Even if there was mutual using (which -- clearly--I don't think is the case, Wally could have gone to any school in the country for track, and most schools for Bball), why aren't an institution like MU and a coach like Wojo held to a higher standard than a college kid?
This seems to be scuzzy as hell. And if MU wants to have a coach who engages in questionable, win above all else behavior, he sure as hell better win. In my opinion, MU clearly exploited Wally for access to Henry. Maybe I'm wrong. I certainly seem to be in the minority, but this really leaves a rotten taste in my mouth.
You are wrong. That much is certain. You "get off it". Look at his numbers at Minnesota. He couldn't play there, he was never going to play at Marquette. I said it day 1 and people tried to argue he would be our back up at the 4. Wrong.
He wanted to play with his brother at a good school. He used Henry to an advantage. Is Wojo in the clear? Heck no. But it's simply moronic to act like Wally didn't also use it to his advantage.
You truly think even for a moment Wally thought "hey I couldn't get off the pine for the gophers but Marquette and clearly better program definitely wants me as a fixture with or without Henry". No, he didn't.
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Wally gets a free year of schooling, gets to run track, and won't play basketball. Which is what he would have been doing even if he kept his basketball scholarship. The kid played with a lot of energy and is a great teammate but he wasn't going to be in the rotation next season.
I was sketchy on it until I heard he was getting a full track scholarship. They took care of him as a student which is the most important thing to me. Once that is taken care of, Wojo has the right, actually the responsibility, to make what decisions he needs to in order to improve the basketball program.
Players get cut off teams all the time. Most of them aren't given the option to have a full ride in another sport, they are just told to move on. As far as I see it, Wojo proved his class by making sure Wally was taken care of.
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Wally gets a free year of schooling, gets to run track, and won't play basketball. Which is what he would have been doing even if he kept his basketball scholarship. The kid played with a lot of energy and is a great teammate but he wasn't going to be in the rotation next season.
I was sketchy on it until I heard he was getting a full track scholarship. They took care of him as a student which is the most important thing to me. Once that is taken care of, Wojo has the right, actually the responsibility, to make what decisions he needs to in order to improve the basketball program.
Players get cut off teams all the time. Most of them aren't given the option to have a full ride in another sport, they are just told to move on. As far as I see it, Wojo proved his class by making sure Wally was taken care of.
+1000 TAMU
Hidden fact here is that with the exception of a few schools, athletic scholarships are for 1 year. All players who accept a scholarship (and their parents) understand this.
Marquette did right by Wally.
I look forward to seeing his as an Olympian and MU alum, and I seriously question whether basketball was helping his jumping at all. The two sports don't seem very compatible, and his jumps haven't been as good when playing hoops.
So, a chance to get a degree, focus on the Olympic dream, and then move on to whatever career a clever, well connected kid chooses... not a bad option.
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Wally gets a free year of schooling, gets to run track, and won't play basketball. Which is what he would have been doing even if he kept his basketball scholarship. The kid played with a lot of energy and is a great teammate but he wasn't going to be in the rotation next season.
I was sketchy on it until I heard he was getting a full track scholarship. They took care of him as a student which is the most important thing to me. Once that is taken care of, Wojo has the right, actually the responsibility, to make what decisions he needs to in order to improve the basketball program.
Players get cut off teams all the time. Most of them aren't given the option to have a full ride in another sport, they are just told to move on. As far as I see it, Wojo proved his class by making sure Wally was taken care of.
With Katin coming, the above is true. Wally's role on next year's team was another body for practice.
The kid has a rare talent at the high jump. Or, he is more talented at the high jump than Henry is a basketball. Time he starts focusing on it so he can do some special things.
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Wally gets a free year of schooling, gets to run track, and won't play basketball. Which is what he would have been doing even if he kept his basketball scholarship. The kid played with a lot of energy and is a great teammate but he wasn't going to be in the rotation next season.
I was sketchy on it until I heard he was getting a full track scholarship. They took care of him as a student which is the most important thing to me. Once that is taken care of, Wojo has the right, actually the responsibility, to make what decisions he needs to in order to improve the basketball program.
Players get cut off teams all the time. Most of them aren't given the option to have a full ride in another sport, they are just told to move on. As far as I see it, Wojo proved his class by making sure Wally was taken care of.
Yep. Done.
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Players get cut off teams all the time. Most of them aren't given the option to have a full ride in another sport, they are just told to move on. As far as I see it, Wojo proved his class by making sure Wally was taken care of.
Yeah, I understand that,in my view, what makes this different is that Wally was exploited to bring in another player. Once the other player was done, Wojo made the decision that Wally had outlived his usefulness, and released him. That gives me a pretty bad impression of the situation.
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Yeah, I understand that,in my view, what makes this different is that Wally was exploited to bring in another player. Once the other player was done, Wojo made the decision that Wally had outlived his usefulness, and released him. That gives me a pretty bad impression of the situation.
NO, only if Wally hadn't been provided with a track scholarship for next year. He absolutely wasn't exploited. He got 3 free years of education from Marquette University including one year after his one and done brother left. The Ellenson's got 4 free years of education for one year of high major basketball production from one kid.
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NO, only if Wally hadn't been provided with a track scholarship for next year. He absolutely wasn't exploited. He got 3 free years of education from Marquette University including one year after his one and done brother left. The Ellenson's got 4 free years of education for one year of high major basketball production from one kid.
AND significant accommodation for the low major players desire to compete in track, which typically was prioritized ahead of basketball.
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Todd smith tweeted this link out the other day:
http://www.getsportiq.com/2016/04/former-stanford-dean-explains-why-helicopter-parenting-is-ruining-a-generation-of-children/
This applies to the ellensons and is a big reason why Wally isn't on the team anymore.
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Todd smith tweeted this link out the other day:
http://www.getsportiq.com/2016/04/former-stanford-dean-explains-why-helicopter-parenting-is-ruining-a-generation-of-children/
This applies to the ellensons and is a big reason why Wally isn't on the team anymore.
Does that make that a subtweet or a subsubtweet?
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Todd smith tweeted this link out the other day:
http://www.getsportiq.com/2016/04/former-stanford-dean-explains-why-helicopter-parenting-is-ruining-a-generation-of-children/
This applies to the ellensons and is a big reason why Wally isn't on the team anymore.
We're going off the rails here so if somebody wants to start a Superbar thread that'll be great but let me say this. Chick and I have served on the Parents' Association Board for 6 years. Helicoptering is the single greatest complaint every administrator voices. Bat crazy stuff. I think chick has mentioned a few examples here on scoop through the years. Like they're in 2nd grade and can't tie their shoes stuff.
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What raw deal? He's getting a free college education. Who else wanted him for basketball? Not anyone I remember.
That would be false. I know he had an offer from Texas Tech and I believe there was another P5 school after him but I can't recall who.
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imho...2 options:
1. wally made promises to the level of focus on basketball and couldn't keep them given his track status so wojo pulled the plug
2. wojo realized he could upgrade so he pushed wally out
i can think of many reasons as to why or how this could have gone down...all guesses...not worth the time. i'm sure factual details will emerge rather than a bunch of people on the internet trying to protect wojo or stick up for wally. at first glance, this looks awful to me, but i'm sure wojo realizes all of that better than anyone.
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That would be false. I know he had an offer from Texas Tech and I believe there was another P5 school after him but I can't recall who.
What a coincidence. Texas Tech is also the school that had the #1 and #2 NCAA high jumpers last year.
So, yeah, I am sure they were truly interested in his basketball skills as well.
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This is a case where two consenting parties entered in to a "Mutually Beneficial Relationship"
The relationship is now no longer "Mutually Beneficial"
The "Palimony" settlement was a full ride athletic scholarship.
Looking forward to the future M Club Hall of Fame ceremony for our Track All American.
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Wally gets a free year of schooling, gets to run track, and won't play basketball. Which is what he would have been doing even if he kept his basketball scholarship. The kid played with a lot of energy and is a great teammate but he wasn't going to be in the rotation next season.
I was sketchy on it until I heard he was getting a full track scholarship. They took care of him as a student which is the most important thing to me. Once that is taken care of, Wojo has the right, actually the responsibility, to make what decisions he needs to in order to improve the basketball program.
Players get cut off teams all the time. Most of them aren't given the option to have a full ride in another sport, they are just told to move on. As far as I see it, Wojo proved his class by making sure Wally was taken care of.
With you here 100%.
The full-ride track scholarship (which MU does not do, generally speaking, they only give out partials) shows to me that MU takes Cura Personalis very seriously. They are making sure this kid completes his education tuition-free, even after being cut from the team that gives out full-rides.
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That would be false. I know he had an offer from Texas Tech and I believe there was another P5 school after him but I can't recall who.
Who also could have just as easily cut him after a year or two. No one was giving him a guarantee that he'd play there through graduation. So why should Marquette?
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Who also could have just as easily cut him after a year or two. No one was giving him a guarantee that he'd play there through graduation. So why should Marquette?
I don't really care what they would have done.
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I don't really care what they would have done.
Then why are you holding Marquette to standards that do not exist anywhere else in major D1 college basketball?
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Then why are you holding Marquette to standards that do not exist anywhere else in major D1 college basketball?
because Marquette is "SPECIAL" because we went there. Duh.
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Then why are you holding Marquette to standards that do not exist anywhere else in major D1 college basketball?
Because I expect more from my alma matter than the minimal standards that exist elsewhere. What Texas Tech does, and what standards they have, is their business. I literally do not care.
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Because I expect more from my alma matter than the minimal standards that exist elsewhere. What Texas Tech does, and what standards they have, is their business. I literally do not care.
If those are truly your expectations, that is your prerogative. But I'm sure you already know in the back of your head that they are unrealistic.
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Because I expect more from my alma matter than the minimal standards that exist elsewhere. What Texas Tech does, and what standards they have, is their business. I literally do not care.
Fair enough. But don't forget that MU has given him a full ride for next year.
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If those are truly your expectations, that is your prerogative. But I'm sure you already know in the back of your head that they are unrealistic.
I understand my expectations put MU on a competitive disadvantage.
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Last night, I had my best night of sleep in weeks.
Seriously. 8 hours, didn't even wake up in the middle of the night to pee, which is a rarity. (If you are under 45, your time is coming!)
I just can't get outraged by any of this. I'm looking forward to filling that scholly with an outstanding player and getting back into the tourney next year.
Go Warriors!
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Then why are you holding Marquette to standards that do not exist anywhere else in major D1 college basketball?
MUScoop - The Home of The False Moral High-Ground since 2006
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I understand my expectations put MU on a competitive disadvantage.
Fair enough. To each their own. I at least respect the fact that you know you can't have it both ways.
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I understand my expectations put MU on a competitive disadvantage.
Luckily for us MU doesn't really care what the Sultan thinks ;D
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It's about solidarity - I just unfollowed all of MU's twitters and I will never buy ice cream from a truck again.
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Really hoping SMOKE AND MIRRORS becomes the next big Scoop meme.
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Fair enough. To each their own. I at least respect the fact that you know you can't have it both ways.
Well and I do think that if Wojo had made it clear to Wally that he expected more in the off season, and Wally wasn't willing to do so, that Wojo was right to pull the scholarship. So if that was the case, then I'm good.
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We're going off the rails here so if somebody wants to start a Superbar thread that'll be great but let me say this. Chick and I have served on the Parents' Association Board for 6 years. Helicoptering is the single greatest complaint every administrator voices. Bat crazy stuff. I think chick has mentioned a few examples here on scoop through the years. Like they're in 2nd grade and can't tie their shoes stuff.
I remember when my mommy sent out a tweet after I didn't make the team.
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If she wants to say MU just used Wally, then I guess you could say Henry just used Marquette. Was the main guy on offense, jacked up a lot of bad 3's, and didn't play a lick of defense. MU didn't make the tourney but he gets to be a lottery pick. I'd say the Ellenson's came out alright
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Last night, I had my best night of sleep in weeks.
Seriously. 8 hours, didn't even wake up in the middle of the night to pee, which is a rarity. (If you are under 45, your time is coming!)
I just can't get outraged by any of this. I'm looking forward to filling that scholly with an outstanding player and getting back into the tourney next year.
Go Warriors!
Kudos on the pee free night.
Hopefully, we can get our 6-9 pogo stick on board soon.
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Last night, I had my best night of sleep in weeks.
Seriously. 8 hours, didn't even wake up in the middle of the night to pee, which is a rarity. (If you are under 45, your time is coming!)
I just can't get outraged by any of this. I'm looking forward to filling that scholly with an outstanding player and getting back into the tourney next year.
Go Warriors!
Exactly. This is nothing but great news. Wojo clearly has a very good feeling that someone who will contribute greatly to our program is coming in.
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If she wants to say MU just used Wally, then I guess you could say Henry just used Marquette. Was the main guy on offense, jacked up a lot of bad 3's, and didn't play a lick of defense. MU didn't make the tourney but he gets to be a lottery pick. I'd say the Ellenson's came out alright
Bob Seeger's "Night Moves":
I used her
She used me
And neither one cared
We were gettin' our share
Or maybe Bill Withers:
I wanna spread the news
That if it feels this good gettin' used
You just keep on using me
Tim you use me up
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With you here 100%.
The full-ride track scholarship (which MU does not do, generally speaking, they only give out partials) shows to me that MU takes Cura Personalis very seriously. They are making sure this kid completes his education tuition-free, even after being cut from the team that gives out full-rides.
Under NCAA rules, Men's track has only 12.6 scholarships. Based upon the current roster on the website, there are 49 athletes dividing those scholarships. I'm not familiar enough with NCAA track and field to know whether an elite, all-american athlete like Wally would typically get a full ride or not.
I'm glad that he's still getting a scholarship at Marquette and can finish his education. I don't know enough about what was said a couple years ago to know one way or another exactly how I feel about the entire situation.
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Under NCAA rules, Men's track has only 12.6 scholarships. Based upon the current roster on the website, there are 49 athletes dividing those scholarships. I'm not familiar enough with NCAA track and field to know whether an elite, all-american athlete like Wally would typically get a full ride or not.
I'm glad that he's still getting a scholarship at Marquette and can finish his education. I don't know enough about what was said a couple years ago to know one way or another exactly how I feel about the entire situatoin.
Sounds like we stole from the poor (track team) to give to the rich (the Ellensons) for the benefit of the super rich (basketball program). Cura Personalis!
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Last night, I had my best night of sleep in weeks.
Seriously. 8 hours, didn't even wake up in the middle of the night to pee, which is a rarity. (If you are under 45, your time is coming!)
I just can't get outraged by any of this. I'm looking forward to filling that scholly with an outstanding player and getting back into the tourney next year.
Go Warriors
LXXXII,
Did ya stuff da ol' sausage too, hey?
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Last night, I had my best night of sleep in weeks.
Seriously. 8 hours, didn't even wake up in the middle of the night to pee, which is a rarity. (If you are under 45, your time is coming!)
I just can't get outraged by any of this. I'm looking forward to filling that scholly with an outstanding player and getting back into the tourney next year.
Go Warriors!
New Scoop meme: Pee-free night.
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Sounds like we stole from the poor (track team) to give to the rich (the Ellensons) for the benefit of the super rich (basketball program). Cura Personalis!
He is a legitimate contender for an NCAA scholarship. He deserves a full ride, which is what I am sure many other schools would have offered him.
Perhaps we should split some of our basketball schollies in half so that instead of 13 4-5 star players, we can have 10 4-5 star players and 6 2-star players.
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Perhaps we should split some of our basketball schollies in half so that instead of 13 4-5 star players, we can have 10 4-5 star players and 6 2-star players.
Q: When was the last time we had 13 4-5 star players?
A: Never.
But you're right, I'm sure that the 4 track guys on partial aid who lose their schollies so that the basketball team gets a "do over" on scholarship #13 don't feel ripped off at all.
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Q: When was the last time we had 13 4-5 star players?
A: Never.
But you're right, I'm sure that the 4 track guys on partial aid who lose their schollies so that the basketball team gets a "do over" on scholarship #13 don't feel ripped off at all.
Do you know for a fact that any track guys lost their schollies, meaning they had them, but not any more?
Also, if we could give our schollies to all 4 and 5 star players., would you be in favor of the split-out? That is what I was really asking.
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C'mon man, no school gives out partial basketball schollies. Ya either piss wit da big dudes, or not at all, ai na?
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Do you know for a fact that any track guys lost their schollies, meaning they had them, but not any more?
Also, if we could give our schollies to all 4 and 5 star players., would you be in favor of the split-out? That is what I was really asking.
I am for 5 star walk-ons only
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Yep. Done.
It's not done, glow. Quite frankly, this woman is trouncing Marquette University in the court of public opinion. Her tweets are damning and casting our beloved alma mater in a very negative light.
It's time we fight back and fight back hard.
That rattling sound you hear is Mike Lovell being unchained so that he can fire back a salvo from his Twitter Howitzer. Holly Ellenson needs to know that trying to shame Marquette University on social media has consequences. Grave consequences.
(http://www.jewishchronicle.org/article_image/001530-lovell_michael_.jpg)
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New Scoop meme: Pee-free night.
I don't pee in the middle of the night. My problem is that once I wake up I have to wait an hour so that I can pee in the morning...
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OK, lets bring realism back to this.
I read Ms. Ellenson's post. I didn't see anything especially aggravating about it. What smoke and mirror means is anyone's guess.
I hope they're not upset with Wojo and MU, but if they are, time heals. Henry was a great asset to us in the past year and I was happy he came to Marquette. Not many Rice Lake boys make it to D1 basketball and I don't think there's ever been an NBAer from Rice Lake. Go Northwoods!
Wally has a great situation in that he will be an Olympian. Despite my bad taste for the Rio Olympics (something to do with the way they were awarded to that cesspool of a city back when my Chicago was competing) and vow not to watch a minute of those Olympics, I'll watch for Wally!
For Wally to be a starter or get material minutes next year, he had a lot of work to do. All of us who saw him last year loved his hustle and commitment -- and the few times when he nailed three-pointers against Georgetown -- but we know he had work to do this summer. He can't put the work in and do the Olympic training and commitment. The skills are not complementary. So Wally ends up with a full scholarship, chance to be an American hero (and a possible gold medalist) and the respect of all us Warriors for what he's done. And, if he medals, he'll be the first Warrior to medal in track and field since Ralph Metcalf. Not a bad deal overall.
Unless there's a deep, dark secret we don't know about, Wojo handled this one reasonably well. I'm sure he would have run with Wally if Wally worked on his game this summer.
Keep this in mind. There are more than 300 million Americans. How many of that group gets to compete in an Olympics, walk in with the U.S. Olympic team and be a part of the greatest spectacle in sport. Probably a lot fewer than play college basketball in a year.
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He is a legitimate contender for an NCAA scholarship. He deserves a full ride, which is what I am sure many other schools would have offered him.
Perhaps we should split some of our basketball schollies in half so that instead of 13 4-5 star players, we can have 10 4-5 star players and 6 2-star players.
I'd take seven 4-5 star players and let them split 10 schollies. They each get one to cover tuition and they split the other three as a cash payout! Then fill the bench with partials.
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OK, lets bring realism back to this.
I read Ms. Ellenson's post. I didn't see anything especially aggravating about it. She simply stated the facts and the chiming class below her tweet posted the ridicule.
Did she say more than just Smoke and Mirrors?
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That would be false. I know he had an offer from Texas Tech and I believe there was another P5 school after him but I can't recall who.
but then TX Tech cooled on Henry
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Did she say more than just Smoke and Mirrors?
I don't think so.
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It's not done, glow. Quite frankly, this woman is trouncing Marquette University in the court of public opinion. Her tweets are damning and casting our beloved alma mater in a very negative light.
It's time we fight back and fight back hard.
That rattling sound you hear is Mike Lovell being unchained so that he can fire back a salvo from his Twitter Howitzer. Holly Ellenson needs to know that trying to shame Marquette University on social media has consequences. Grave consequences.
(http://www.jewishchronicle.org/article_image/001530-lovell_michael_.jpg)
Keefe, give it a rest huh? You're getting Ners-like in your drumbeat regarding Lovell even though this has zero to do with him. You don't like or respect him, we get it.
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Sounds like we stole from the poor (track team) to give to the rich (the Ellensons) for the benefit of the super rich (basketball program). Cura Personalis!
We would not have a track team if not for basketball revenue.
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It's not done, glow. Quite frankly, this woman is trouncing Marquette University in the court of public opinion. Her tweets are damning and casting our beloved alma mater in a very negative light.
It's time we fight back and fight back hard.
That rattling sound you hear is Mike Lovell being unchained so that he can fire back a salvo from his Twitter Howitzer. Holly Ellenson needs to know that trying to shame Marquette University on social media has consequences. Grave consequences.
(http://www.jewishchronicle.org/article_image/001530-lovell_michael_.jpg)
I disagree with you on the Lovell vs. McAdams issue, but this is f*ckin hilarious. Well done.
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Keefe, give it a rest huh? You're getting Ners-like in your drumbeat regarding Lovell even though this has zero to do with him. You don't like or respect him, we get it.
I never said I didn't like him (I don't know him) or not respect him. I said that Tweeting about McAdams was ill-advised.
What I find curious is that if people applaud Lovell for using Twitter against McAdams why should he not do the same against Mrs Ellenson? Because, frankly, the same logic applies.
People can't have it both ways.
By the way, I had a couple classes with Fr Davitt while at Marquette.That man was bloody brilliant.
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I disagree with you on the Lovell vs. McAdams issue, but this is f*ckin hilarious. Well done.
Precisely the spirit in which it was intended!
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I never said I didn't like him (I don't know him) or not respect him. I said that Tweeting about McAdams was ill-advised.
What I find curious is that if people applaud Lovell for using Twitter against McAdams why should he not do the same against Mrs Ellenson? Because, frankly, the same logic applies.
People can't have it both ways.
By the way, I had a couple classes with Fr Davitt while at Marquette.That man was bloody brilliant.
Whatever.
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I never said I didn't like him (I don't know him) or not respect him. I said that Tweeting about McAdams was ill-advised.
What I find curious is that if people applaud Lovell for using Twitter against McAdams why should he not do the same against Mrs Ellenson? Because, frankly, the same logic applies.
People can't have it both ways.
By the way, I had a couple classes with Fr Davitt while at Marquette.That man was bloody brilliant.
Lovell should not tweet anything about anyone. There is very little upside in any situation to do that.
If Holly wants to blast away, let her. Who cares? Quite honestly, I think she looks foolish as an adult doing what she did.
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He is a legitimate contender for an NCAA scholarship. He deserves a full ride, which is what I am sure many other schools would have offered him.
Perhaps we should split some of our basketball schollies in half so that instead of 13 4-5 star players, we can have 10 4-5 star players and 6 2-star players.
Can't do it. Basketball is a headcount sport -- only allowed to have a max of 13 players on scholarship. You can give them less than a full scholarship if you want,* you can't have more than 13 players receiving scholarship money.
*I can't imagine any serious basketball program would ever consider this. I've always assumed that everyone in D1 (other than the Ivies) gives the max number of full scholarships, but I honestly don't know. Perhaps some of the lower level D1 schools give fewer than the max number of less than full scholarships.
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Lovell should not tweet anything about anyone. There is very little upside in any situation to do that.
If Holly wants to blast away, let her. Who cares? Quite honestly, I think she looks foolish as an adult doing what she did.
She didn't really do much of anything. Whether the Ellenson family has a legit beef against Wojo/MU or they just have a difference in opinion of Wally's skills we don't know, but if she truly believes that her son was treated unfairly then she has every right to be upset. I would be. Every parent would be. And many would say a whole lot more than "smoke and mirrors."
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Do you know for a fact that any track guys lost their schollies, meaning they had them, but not any more?
This was my thought as well. I feel like I remember that most of our other sports were not fully funded to max out their scholarship allowances to begin with. Does anyone know if this is the case? I'm reaching back about 10 years on my memory with regards to this, but my first thought when I saw the track scholarship was that some booster just ponied up.
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She didn't really do much of anything. Whether the Ellenson family has a legit beef against Wojo/MU or they just have a difference in opinion of Wally's skills we don't know, but if she truly believes that her son was treated unfairly then she has every right to be upset. I would be. Every parent would be. And many would say a whole lot more than "smoke and mirrors."
I agree. I can imagine many parents being much more harsh than that of they feel their kid got a raw deal.
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I agree. I can imagine many parents being much more harsh than that of they feel their kid got a raw deal.
You mean, like, uh...suing the school district!!!
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Do you know for a fact that any track guys lost their schollies, meaning they had them, but not any more?
Also, if we could give our schollies to all 4 and 5 star players., would you be in favor of the split-out? That is what I was really asking.
1.No - what I do know is that 1 week ago the track team had 12.5 scholarships to divide between their 49 athletes. One eighth of that allotment has been awarded to Wally (who was already on the team). So either people presently on the team lose or people who might otherwise come into the program lose.
2.1 would be against a roster where all 13 of or players were 4 or 5 stars - wouldn't be enough playing time to go around. Teams actually (effectively, anyway) do a "split out", although most of the 2* guys are walk ons and don't get to share scholarships with the 3* guys who are also riding the bench.
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1.No - what I do know is that 1 week ago the track team had 12.5 scholarships to divide between their 49 athletes. One eighth of that allotment has been awarded to Wally (who was already on the team). So either people presently on the team lose or people who might otherwise come into the program lose.
2.1 would be against a roster where all 13 of or players were 4 or 5 stars - wouldn't be enough playing time to go around. Teams actually (effectively, anyway) do a "split out", although most of the 2* guys are walk ons and don't get to share scholarships with the 3* guys who are also riding the bench.
I'm not sure about the timing of awarding scholarships (but that might end up having to do with why this was announced when it was), but I'm assuming that some incoming freshmen who might have otherwise had partial track scholarships were not awarded scholarships. I doubt anything was "taken away" in the sense that it had already been communicated to them that they were going to get a partial scholarship, but rather they just ended up not getting one, at least for their freshman year. If they found out now, they still have time to make a different decision if they have offers from other D1 schools. Alternatively, they might still have as many people on partial, just with smaller amounts.
I don't really have a problem with it, if that is the way it went down. It is not like Wally isn't a world-class track athlete who isn't deserving of the scholarship. That would be different.
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You mean, like, uh...suing the school district!!!
Yep - that one surprised me.
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I never said I didn't like him (I don't know him) or not respect him. I said that Tweeting about McAdams was ill-advised.
What I find curious is that if people applaud Lovell for using Twitter against McAdams why should he not do the same against Mrs Ellenson? Because, frankly, the same logic applies.
People can't have it both ways.
By the way, I had a couple classes with Fr Davitt while at Marquette.That man was bloody brilliant.
plenty of differences????
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1.No - what I do know is that 1 week ago the track team had 12.5 scholarships to divide between their 49 athletes. One eighth of that allotment has been awarded to Wally (who was already on the team). So either people presently on the team lose or people who might otherwise come into the program lose.
Unless Wally only uses it during the summer to get the last few credits he needs to graduate.
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FWIW I have a buddy who ran track at MU a few years back and he told me that they generally had a few portions of schollie's left over to give to kids who were coming back for their 4th year as a walk-on, that sort of thing. So at worst a couple of kids have been told "ya about that scholarship we said you might get..."
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Can't do it. Basketball is a headcount sport -- only allowed to have a max of 13 players on scholarship. You can give them less than a full scholarship if you want,* you can't have more than 13 players receiving scholarship money.
*I can't imagine any serious basketball program would ever consider this. I've always assumed that everyone in D1 (other than the Ivies) gives the max number of full scholarships, but I honestly don't know. Perhaps some of the lower level D1 schools give fewer than the max number of less than full scholarships.
Two types of NCAA sports ...
Headcount sports like basketball. Maximum is 13 full-rides. That means 13 full-rides. Cannot do 26 half-rides. Which leads to ...
Equivalent sports. Cross country and track are examples. A full cross-country program has the money for 8 full rides. 12.5 for track. That can be split up to as many players as you want, so long as the total money handed out does not exceed 8 for XC or 12.5 for track.
That said, many programs do give the one superstar on the team a full-ride. That would be someone of all-American or NCAA championship caliber. So Wally fits the bill. Or, if Wally called MU track three years ago and said he wanted to only high jump, and even if he did not have brother Henry, based on his skill at the high jump, MU still might have given him a full-ride.
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Two types of NCAA sports ...
Headcount sports like basketball. Maximum is 13 full-rides. That means 13 full-rides. Cannot do 26 half-rides. Which leads to ...
Equivalent sports. Cross country and track are examples. A full cross-country program has the money for 8 full rides. 12.5 for track. That can be split up to as many players as you want, so long as the total money handed out does not exceed 8 for XC or 12.5 for track.
That said, many programs do give the one superstar on the team a full-ride. That would be someone of all-American or NCAA championship caliber. So Wally fits the bill. Or, if Wally called MU track three years ago and said he wanted to only high jump, and even if he did not have brother Henry, based on his skill at the high jump, MU still might have given him a full-ride.
Right. Which is why I don't have a problem with this. Wally is a world class track athlete.
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Why doesn't Henry just pay da tuition bill. Nothin' but chump change for him, ai na?
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Two types of NCAA sports ...
Headcount sports like basketball. Maximum is 13 full-rides. That means 13 full-rides. Cannot do 26 half-rides.
Not technically. But for all practical purposes, you're correct. I suspect virtually all D1 basketball scholarships are full ride -- certainly programs like Marquette. I'd be interested to know what goes on in some smaller conferences (e.g., Patriot League).
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Two types of NCAA sports ...
Headcount sports like basketball. Maximum is 13 full-rides. That means 13 full-rides. Cannot do 26 half-rides. Which leads to ...
Equivalent sports. Cross country and track are examples. A full cross-country program has the money for 8 full rides. 12.5 for track. That can be split up to as many players as you want, so long as the total money handed out does not exceed 8 for XC or 12.5 for track.
That said, many programs do give the one superstar on the team a full-ride. That would be someone of all-American or NCAA championship caliber. So Wally fits the bill. Or, if Wally called MU track three years ago and said he wanted to only high jump, and even if he did not have brother Henry, based on his skill at the high jump, MU still might have given him a full-ride.
No offense, but I'm curious if you actually know this to be true, or if you're speculating. It certainly wouldn't surprise me, and it certainly makes sense.
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No offense, but I'm curious if you actually know this to be true, or if you're speculating. It certainly wouldn't surprise me, and it certainly makes sense.
I know it to be true, I have a kid on a track D1 scholarship.
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I know it to be true, I have a kid on a track D1 scholarship.
Thanks. I find there is a lot if misunderstanding -- including my own -- out there about how scholarships work in the equivalency sports and in the non-revenue headcount sports. I've learned a lot about the latter and a little about the former in the last year. Always happy to understand it all a little better.
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I know it to be true, I have a kid on a track D1 scholarship.
John??? Holly??? Is that you??
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Why doesn't Henry just pay da tuition bill. Nothin' but chump change for him, ai na?
(cue Alan Parsons Project intro theme...)
At Forward, 6'8" from Central Arkansas......SCOTTTTIEEE PIPPPENNNN!!
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She didn't really do much of anything. Whether the Ellenson family has a legit beef against Wojo/MU or they just have a difference in opinion of Wally's skills we don't know, but if she truly believes that her son was treated unfairly then she has every right to be upset. I would be. Every parent would be. And many would say a whole lot more than "smoke and mirrors."
Of course she has a right to however she feels. If she feels the need to vent her stuff on Twitter or whatever then I think she is a fool. Take up your objections with the principals involved. Everyone throwing there BS on Twitter or whatever gets old. Act like a grownup.
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Wally has a great situation in that he will be an Olympian.
Wally has already qualified for a spot on the U.S. Olympic team?
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Sounds like we stole from the poor (track team) to give to the rich (the Ellensons) for the benefit of the super rich (basketball program). Cura Personalis!
Bingo! We have another winner, folks!!
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IF this is a helicopter parent issue and Holly Ellenson is Wojo's Tim Maymon then I say "well done coach Wojo"!
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We would not have a track team if not for basketball revenue.
Actually, we would. We need 14 DI sports to be in DI. We have exactly the minimum, so we would have track just to remain in the division.
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C'mon man, no school gives out partial basketball schollies. Ya either piss wit da big dudes, or not at all, ai na?
Correct, in fact you can't. They are not able to split them up per the rules.
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Correct, in fact you can't. They are not able to split them up per the rules.
Your first sentence is incorrect. Your second sentence is correct. Schools can give partials in headcount sports, but can't split one scholarship between two players.
I suppose from a purely semantic standpoint someone could say that two athletes getting partials are "splitting" a scholarship, but I don't think that would be correct. They are both just getting partials. But I'm not sure that ever happens in basketball like it does in some other headcount sports.
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Your first sentence is incorrect. Your second sentence is correct. Schools can give partials in headcount sports, but can't split one scholarship between two players.
I suppose from a purely semantic standpoint someone could say that two athletes getting partials are "splitting" a scholarship, but I don't think that would be correct. They are both just getting partials. But I'm not sure that ever happens in basketball like it does in some other headcount sports.
Chicos and others are correct. Only full scholies in BB ( and FB) in div 1 (or whatever FB calls itself).
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Chicos and others are correct. Only full scholies in BB ( and FB) in div 1 (or whatever FB calls itself).
Where do you see that? I believe that is probably the practice, but I'm not sure it's the rule. It is a common misconception that is not true in the non-revenue headcount sports. Is it a rule in BB and FB?
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Actually, we would. We need 14 DI sports to be in DI. We have exactly the minimum, so we would have track just to remain in the division.
My point is, who would fund it?
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My point is, who would fund it?
The school. Most schools are upside down on athletics anyway, meaning there isn't enough revenue to fund their athletic programs from the revenue generated from revenue sports. Student fees, other operating budgets provide the difference.
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Wally has already qualified for a spot on the U.S. Olympic team?
No but from what I read, he is one of the best high jumpers in the USA. The chances he might qualify with training and work this summer appear reasonably good.
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No but from what I read, he is one of the best high jumpers in the USA. The chances he might qualify with training and work this summer appear reasonably good.
I hope you're right, and I'm not one who picks every little nit. But this is a far cry from "he will be an Olympian," no?
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No but from what I read, he is one of the best high jumpers in the USA. The chances he might qualify with training and work this summer appear reasonably good.
Which is ultimately the issue here. If Wally is going to spend all his time this off-season training for the high-jump and not on basketball, then great for him and he gets a track scholarship next year to get his degree. However, Wojo decided he needs that basketball scholarship for players that are actually going to be here training for basketball in the off-season. Hopefully Wojo can work it all out and keep a decent relationship with the Ellenson's going forward.
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Finished 12th at nationals last year and has never jumped the Olympic qualifying height in a competition as far as I can tell.
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IIRC, the Ivy League only has partial scholarships for bball
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IIRC, the Ivy League only has partial scholarships for bball
The Ivy League doesn't offer any athletic scholarships.
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Where do you see that? I believe that is probably the practice, but I'm not sure it's the rule. It is a common misconception that is not true in the non-revenue headcount sports. Is it a rule in BB and FB?
Interesting question: Are there any D-I BBall or FB programs that have recently offered less than full grant-in-aid to a student-athlete?
The full vs. partial is a question of headcount sport vs. equivalency sport. Headcount you can give full.. for equivalency sports, the calculation is explained in the bylaws... for headcount sports, at first glance... it doesn't appear there is anything disallowing you from offering a scholarship for less than full...
Can't imagine anyone would do so... but, looks like it may be allowable.
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Head count sports = FULL RIDE
Equivalency sports = partials or full ride
http://www.athleticscholarships.net/sports-scholarships/head-count-versus-equivalency-scholarships.htm
Black and white. Been this way since I worked in various athletic departments and I don't think anything has changed it. We're going through this with my son right now, who would be in an equivalency sport.
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This lack of partial scholorship thing protects the small schools I imagine. Otherwise UNC could take their last two scholorships and create a "tryout " for kids. Essentially giving them a free look at more talent and lowering the risk. Transfers would increase but kids that would go to other schools would likely end up at the blue bloods.
Why would we ever want this?
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The Ivy League doesn't offer any athletic scholarships.
This is true. However...financial aid for student athletes is indexed to NCAA criteria.
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Head count sports = FULL RIDE
Equivalency sports = partials or full ride
http://www.athleticscholarships.net/sports-scholarships/head-count-versus-equivalency-scholarships.htm
Black and white. Been this way since I worked in various athletic departments and I don't think anything has changed it. We're going through this with my son right now, who would be in an equivalency sport.
With all due respect, I believe the source you linked is wrong. For many years I was under the impression that Head count sports = full ride. You can certainly find much support for that on the internet -- often on recruiting service websites (like the one you linked - and even it says "can best be understood" suggesting that they're simplifying things a bit). I wonder if recruiting services might have an incentive to oversimplify rules like that to make it appear that anyone getting a scholarship in a head count sport is guaranteed a full ride.
And like you, I've been through this process recently -- with a daughter who is in a head count sport. I can assure you, there are schools out there offering partial scholarships to athletes in head count sports. Perhaps not basketball or football -- I don't claim to have any expertise in those sports. I suspect that most if not all D1 football and basketball programs offer only full rides. But, as I've mentioned, I'd be very interested to know how that is handled in some smaller conferences. I know first hand that the Patriot League has numerous programs that are less than "fully funded" in volleyball, but I don't know about basketball.
I looked at Article 15 of the NCAA rules, and they don't say anything about minimum and I didn't see anything suggesting that head count sports can only offer full rides (i.e., is prohibited from offering partials). As I understand it, after going through the process and talking to a lot of people (including a bunch of D1 college volleyball coaches), the head count only sets the number of "counters" that a school is allowed. If an athlete receives $1000, he or she is a "counter" and fills a scholarship spot. In volleyball, they're allowed 12 scholarships - so only 12 girls can be on scholarship no matter what the amount is. If a school is "fully funded" (as most of the big conferences schools are -- but there are some out there who would surprise you), then each of the 12 scholarships will be a full ride. But in other schools that are not fully funded, they might offer a total of nine scholarships that can be divided up (e.g., 6 full and 6 half -- for a total of 12; or maybe just 9 full). And I know of at least one underfunded school in a smaller conference (A10) that is budgeted at 4.5 scholarships. Point being -- for women's volleyball at least -- which is a head count sport -- there can be partial scholarships.
I learned this because when I started the process with my daughter, lots of people told me that because volleyball is a head count sport each D1 team offers 12 scholarships and they are all full-ride. Sounded great. I later learned that people simply are misinformed and/or misunderstand what it means to be a head count sport. Most schools are fully funded and offer only full scholarships -- certainly in the BCS conferences -- but it's not required.
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Whatever happened to the gal from Northern CA who signed with MU LAX? Her dad was a frequent poster.
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With all due respect, I believe the source you linked is wrong. For many years I was under the impression that Head count sports = full ride. You can certainly find much support for that on the internet -- often on recruiting service websites (like the one you linked - and even it says "can best be understood" suggesting that they're simplifying things a bit). I wonder if recruiting services might have an incentive to oversimplify rules like that to make it appear that anyone getting a scholarship in a head count sport is guaranteed a full ride.
I don't know, that wasn't the case when I was working in the field. We are talking Division I, yes?
CBS News says this
"Full-ride sports scholarships are scarce. There are only six sports where all the scholarships are full ride. These so-called head-count sports are football, men and women's basketball, and women's gymnastics, volleyball, and tennis. In these Division I sports, athletes receive a full ride or no ride."
On the NCAA site is says headcount sports have full academic year applied to the number of counters. While equivalency sports are used as a fraction. Nowhere do they say fractions can be applied to Headcount, but go out of their way to say it can be done for equivalency.
http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Division_I_Financial_Aid_(Foundational).pptx
In the manual, bylaws 15, I just don't see anywhere that they can be split up for headcount sports. There are exceptions where if a women's volleyball player graduates at mid year, but those are extremely rare.
http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D116JAN.pdf
Maybe it's there, I just don't see it and it would surprise me that so many scholarship sites would have it wrong, as this is what they do for a living.
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I don't know, that wasn't the case when I was working in the field. We are talking Division I, yes?
CBS News says this
"Full-ride sports scholarships are scarce. There are only six sports where all the scholarships are full ride. These so-called head-count sports are football, men and women's basketball, and women's gymnastics, volleyball, and tennis. In these Division I sports, athletes receive a full ride or no ride."
On the NCAA site is says headcount sports have full academic year applied to the number of counters. While equivalency sports are used as a fraction. Nowhere do they say fractions can be applied to Headcount, but go out of their way to say it can be done for equivalency.
http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Division_I_Financial_Aid_(Foundational).pptx
In the manual, bylaws 15, I just don't see anywhere that they can be split up for headcount sports. There are exceptions where if a women's volleyball player graduates at mid year, but those are extremely rare.
http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D116JAN.pdf
Maybe it's there, I just don't see it and it would surprise me that so many scholarship sites would have it wrong, as this is what they do for a living.
What sites say - CBS News or scholarship sites, aren't relevant.
What StillAWarrior I think is saying.. and what I am saying, is that it doesn't appear to be prohibited that a headcount sport could offer someone less than a full grant-in-aid package. Why would they ever do this? Would they ever do this? I don't know.
The language in Bylaws around headcount counters is simple, presumably because even if someone is awarded less than full grant-in-aid, they are a full counter. Thus, there is no reason to go through calculations like they do for equivalency sports. The calculation is: "you give someone athletic aid, you take up 1.0 of your available counters, period."
Now, my challenge back to StillAWarrior is to find an example or help explain plausible reasons (extreme financial stress?) where a headcount sport would not give full grant-in-aid.
In other words, I think the answer is probably "technically, one could give less than full grant-in-aid to a scholarship player in a headcount sport; however, it rarely if ever happens so talking about it is stupid."
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I don't know what to tell you. We're just dealing in an area where a lot of people don't know how it works.
Odd to see you citing CBS News as authoritative. I didn't think you were a big fan of the main stream media. ;) But they're wrong. I can't tell you why they are wrong, but they are. I suspect it's because like most college sports fans they focus on football and men's basketball, and I suspect that partial scholarships are exceedingly rare in those sports (if at all).
Regarding the NCAA rule you cited, it's helpful to consider the "scholarship" and the financial aid separately. In the head count sports, the scholarships cannot be divided like it can in equivalency sports. One person = one scholarship. But the financial aid given to the athlete does not have to equal the full cost of tuition/fees (and I'm not even getting into the new "cost of attendance" stuff). By contrast, in equivalency sports, they can divide the scholarship (and the financial aid) among as many kids as they want.
If you look hard enough, there are references to it out there.
- Here's an article (http://www.redandblack.com/sports/athletic-scholarships-awarded-based-on-sport-and-funding-category/article_3caa1682-94ca-11e3-aeb7-0017a43b2370.html) with Georgia's football coach mentioning it ("Although a school can offer a partial scholarship to an athlete in a head-count sport, that is typically not the case at Georgia."
- Here's another (http://student-athleteshowcase.com/ncaa-scholarships-headcount-vs-equivalency) ("...so whether a player is given a full athletic scholarship or given only a dollar, s/he is counted toward the headcount...).
- Another (http://www.scholarshipstats.com/ncaalimits.html) ("There are fewer NCAA head- count sports than equivalency sports; head count sports mean the stated scholarship limit is absolute, and the number of student athletes receiving awards cannot exceed this number. NCAA I football and basketball are headcount sports as well as a few others noted above. For example, NCAA FBS football schools can have a maximum of 85 players under scholarship during a year. Head count sports generally award a much higher percentage of full scholarships to participants than equivalency sports.")
- Another (http://www.stanforddaily.com/2010/02/05/belch-ncaa-scholarship-system-is-unjust/) ("In the NCAA, there are two types of sports when it comes to scholarships: headcount sports and equivalency sports. In a headcount sport, each athlete on scholarship counts toward the maximum number of athletes a school can have on scholarship. So, no matter if a player is given a full ride or just 10 cents a year, he or she is counted toward the overall scholarship limit for that sport. For this reason, it is in the interest of these headcount sports to offer full scholarships to attract the best players possible.")
It's very clear that this is widely misunderstood, and I suspect it's because most people focus on big time programs and revenue sports. But once you get down into smaller schools and non-revenue headcount sports, you find out that not all scholarships in head count sports are full rides.
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What sites say - CBS News or scholarship sites, aren't relevant.
What StillAWarrior I think is saying.. and what I am saying, is that it doesn't appear to be prohibited that a headcount sport could offer someone less than a full grant-in-aid package. Why would they ever do this? Would they ever do this? I don't know.
It doesn't say it is permitted either, where the bylaws go out of their way to show it is permitted for equivalency sports. Seems to me, if it was permitted, the manual and bylaws would say it is permitted, just as they do clearly for equivalency. Why go into extreme detail to say fractional offers are ok for one, and if they are ok in headcount option why not also say it? Instead, the headcount option is kept extremely simple.
That's my view, and in the years I was involved our compliance department said flat out, full ride or no ride. I'll ask with my son's stuff, but I'm going with Occam's Razor on this.
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It doesn't say it is permitted either, where the bylaws go out of their way to show it is permitted for equivalency sports. Seems to me, if it was permitted, the manual and bylaws would say it is permitted, just as they do clearly for equivalency. Why go into extreme detail to say fractional offers are ok for one, and if they are ok in headcount option why not also say it? Instead, the headcount option is kept extremely simple.
That's my view, and in the years I was involved our compliance department said flat out, full ride or no ride. I'll ask with my son's stuff, but I'm going with Occam's Razor on this.
You have the right to your view, but it differs from mine and therefore is incorrect.
Again, I can't come up with many reasons why a program would give out less than full grant-in-aid to a headcount sport SA, but it doesn't appear there's anything barring it. So, yes... MU's compliance department (btw, compliance departments get crap wrong ALL THE TIME) would/should say "full ride or no ride".. because it makes sense, under the rules... however, it doesn't mean you CAN'T do it. It would just be dumb to do it, so no need to talk about it.
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Yes, Still....I'm focusing on men's basketball and football.
I'll call my guys at the NCAA on Monday and try to get clarification.
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Yes, Still....I'm focusing on men's basketball and football.
I'll call my guys at the NCAA on Monday and try to get clarification.
Great, but be clear on the question and remember the NCAA staff often gets things wrong (including RPI calcs!... trust me, I know first hand).
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Kinda surprised D1 hockey isn't considered a revenue sport. It's big time at the vast majority of schools that have it. In fact, can think of two schools that are D1 in hockey and D2 in everything else.
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My understanding on "head count sports" was any player that gets even $1 in aid from the school counts as one player on scholarship.
Thus the name: you're counting the number of players on scholarship (a head count), not how many full ride scholarships are being offered.
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My understanding on "head count sports" was any player that gets even $1 in aid from the school counts as one player on scholarship.
Thus the name: you're counting the number of players on scholarship (a head count), not how many full ride scholarships are being offered.
I'm not going to go back and read all this but that does seem ridiculous to me. For that to be true, every walk-on's parents would be compelled to forfeit their kid's academic scholarship package simply to play basketball. 'Um, dad, Wojo wants me to sit at the end of the bench in uniform, it'll probably require extra summer school to graduate on time, and it'll mean giving up my $10,000 annual Ignatius scholly.'
Yeah, that conversation will work.
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As long as a walk-on is getting an academic scholarship offered to all students with similar academic profiles, they're good. And yes the NCAA will audit this if they feel abuse is occurring.
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So,
Wally still maintains a full scholarship ride at MU.
Wally can now concentrate on his Olympic ability as a track/field athlete full time.
Wally probably told by staff that his minutes will be non existent next year due to incoming recruits.
Wally's family upset over his basketball career, when in reality next year it would be sitting at end of bench. He would not even have a shot at NBDL or a Europe gig. I for one, if my son was a potential Olympic candidate, would surely encourage him to totally commit to Olympic aspirations.
Maybe Wally liked the camaraderie of being on the basketball squad, but so be it.
How would the Ellensons felt had Wally torn an ACL playing basketball, thus ruining his Olympic chances? The Ellensons owed MU as much as MU owed them. Nothing.
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As long as a walk-on is getting an academic scholarship offered to all students with similar academic profiles, they're good. And yes the NCAA will audit this if they feel abuse is occurring.
And, it would be rather obvious if the abuse were to be occurring. Don't see many walk-ons that are that "good". Wisconsin seems to be the rare exception with its numerous "preferred walk-on" players over the years. Walk-ons on most teams look like what one would think of as a walk-on for practice purposes.
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And almost all of Wisconsin's preferred walk-ons get an athletic scholarship if they do turn out to be good.
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What sites say - CBS News or scholarship sites, aren't relevant.
What StillAWarrior I think is saying.. and what I am saying, is that it doesn't appear to be prohibited that a headcount sport could offer someone less than a full grant-in-aid package. Why would they ever do this? Would they ever do this? I don't know.
The language in Bylaws around headcount counters is simple, presumably because even if someone is awarded less than full grant-in-aid, they are a full counter. Thus, there is no reason to go through calculations like they do for equivalency sports. The calculation is: "you give someone athletic aid, you take up 1.0 of your available counters, period."
Now, my challenge back to StillAWarrior is to find an example or help explain plausible reasons (extreme financial stress?) where a headcount sport would not give full grant-in-aid.
In other words, I think the answer is probably "technically, one could give less than full grant-in-aid to a scholarship player in a headcount sport; however, it rarely if ever happens so talking about it is stupid."
I believe it is a financial situation. Some schools just don't support their athletics at the same level that we're used to seeing in big time programs. As I've said in previous posts, my knowledge of these things comes from experiencing it first hand in the volleyball setting. Basketball may -- and probably does -- differ (certainly in practice, if not according to the rules). Even in the Big East (which we all like to consider a big time conference -- and did have three teams qualify in the volleyball tournament), there are several schools that don't fund the full 12 scholarships for volleyball. It's my understanding that most of the Patriot League does not fund all of their scholarships in volleyball and I know first hand that several don't. I know of on A10 program with only 4.5 volleyball scholarships (but they are increasing that). In short, they don't spend the money.
As for why they would offer something less than a full ride, I think that comes down to coach's preference. Suppose a school decided they would fund 9 scholarships in volleyball (a common number in programs that are less than fully funded). For the sake of simple math, assume that each scholarship is worth $50k. So, the program's budget for scholarships is $450k. Some schools might elect to give nine full scholarships and fill the rest of the roster with walk-ons. Some schools might elect to give six full scholarships and six half scholarships, thinking it will help them with some depth. Both schools are spending the same $450k. And some schools do it by tinkering with the number of years that they offer -- with girls paying their way for the first year or two (with the hope being that they can get 12 girls at a "full scholarship" caliber on the roster). Just different ways to deal with the fact that they've only got $450k to spend on scholarships. I'm not a big video game guy, but I would view it similar to building a roster on Madden or one of those games. Do you want some 10s a bunch of 2s? Or do you want a team full of 5s and 6s? I think that is the decision faced by coaches in programs that are less than fully funded.
If a program has the resources to fully fund all the allowed scholarship, there would be no reason to ever give something less than full grant-in-aid. I could see banking an entire scholarship because the next year's class looks more attractive, but not a reduced scholarship. The only time I could see some sense in it -- and this would be only in a program that is really pinching pennies -- would be the situation we sometimes see when a team has an extra scholarship and decides to give it to a walk-on to recognize prior contributions to the program -- maybe give half but not the full boat to save a little cash. But I would think that a school pinching pennies would simply bank the scholarship and anyone trying to recognize a kid in that situation would give the full ride.
I can only assume that the rules don't specifically address this because they're talking about the maximums that schools can do, and not minimums. When listing that the maximum head count for basketball as 13 scholarships, the rules don't say what the minimum number is. But I think we all agree that a basketball team can offer less than the maximum number of scholarships. Similarly, the rules specify the maximum financial aid that schools can give to a kid on a scholarship, but don't say what the minimum is. And the reason they specify how scholarships can be broken down in equivalency sports but not in head count sports is because they are fundamentally different. Three kids can share one scholarship in an equivalency sport, so they have to explain how that works. Kids cannot share scholarships in a head count sport, so there is no need to address splitting scholarships.
Edited to add: After reading another thread, I remembered something that I've heard other less than fully funded programs do (although do not have any first hand knowledge here). Smaller state schools might peg the value of the financial aid at the in-state tuition so for kids from out-of-state, the financial aid will be less than a full-ride. And I heard some will have a specified number of in-state and out-of-state scholarships available. All can be awarded to girls from out-of-state, but some will only get the financial aid equivalent of an in-state.
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Kinda surprised D1 hockey isn't considered a revenue sport. It's big time at the vast majority of schools that have it. In fact, can think of two schools that are D1 in hockey and D2 in everything else.
I figured there would be a few more, so I did a search. Of the 60 D1 hockey schools, 16 are D2 in other sports, and 6 are in D3. Way more than I expected.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_Division_I_ice_hockey_programs
No idea what kind of revenue these schools bring in, but pretty interesting that over one-third of all D1 hockey is played at lower-level athletic programs.
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Great, but be clear on the question and remember the NCAA staff often gets things wrong (including RPI calcs!... trust me, I know first hand).
Here's the question I'm going to ask, if you would like me to modify it, let me know.
"At the DI level, for all headcount sports, are partial scholarships allowable or must they be full grants only? Are there any differences between men's hoops and football, say versus the three headcount women's sports?"
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Kinda surprised D1 hockey isn't considered a revenue sport. It's big time at the vast majority of schools that have it. In fact, can think of two schools that are D1 in hockey and D2 in everything else.
Well, it is a "revenue" sport, but not a profitable sport. Technically soccer is a revenue sport because there is a charge to get into the games, but they are so underwater from a profitability stand point.
Latest NCAA numbers, only about 35 schools are profitable in athletics. Now, a lot of that is because schools spend money at insane rates in the arms race of athletics. Despite revenues doubling in the last 10 years, their expenses have doubled as well. Sounds like a gov't run operation.
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Well, it is a "revenue" sport, but not a profitable sport. Technically soccer is a revenue sport because there is a charge to get into the games, but they are so underwater from a profitability stand point.
Latest NCAA numbers, only about 35 schools are profitable in athletics. Now, a lot of that is because schools spend money at insane rates in the arms race of athletics. Despite revenues doubling in the last 10 years, their expenses have doubled as well. Sounds like a gov't run operation.
Losing impacts attendance at Wisconsin Hockey that historically drew big attendance.
http://host.madison.com/ct/sports/college/hockey/badgers-men-s-hockey-draws-smallest-crowd-in-kohl-center/article_65fcb552-711a-11e5-a242-43324d310fee.html
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Here's the question I'm going to ask, if you would like me to modify it, let me know.
"At the DI level, for all headcount sports, are partial scholarships allowable or must they be full grants only? Are there any differences between men's hoops and football, say versus the three headcount women's sports?"
I think the distinction that causes confusion is the difference between the financial aid and scholarship. By using the term "scholarship", I think you might be injecting the same ambiguity into the question.* Partial "scholarships" are not available in head count sports. I think everyone understands and agrees on that. If an athlete gets $1000, he has the "whole" scholarship in a head count sport -- the scholarship cannot be divided.
I think the question is: "At the D1 level, can an athlete in a head count sport be given some dollar figure less than full grant-in-aid? For example, do the rules prohibit giving a head count athlete a financial package equivalent of half of full grant-in-aid (understanding that the athlete still counts as a full "counter")? Are there any differences between men's hoops and football, say versus the three headcount women's sports?"
*Incidentally, in normal conversation, I also would use the term "partial scholarship" to describe this arrangement. However, over the last year I've learned that this phrase is what causes a lot of the confusion because it causes people to focus on equivalency vs. head count and to say, correctly, that there are no "partials" in head count sports. Fans (and parents) focus on the money, so they understandably refer to anything less than a full ride as a "partial scholarship." The NCAA rules on equivalency vs. head count focus on the total number of counters, and since you can't divide head count scholarships people often say that there are no "partial scholarships."
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Here's the question I'm going to ask, if you would like me to modify it, let me know.
"At the DI level, for all headcount sports, are partial scholarships allowable or must they be full grants only? Are there any differences between men's hoops and football, say versus the three headcount women's sports?"
Don't like it. "Partial scholarships" will make some infer you're saying they can be split up.
"For D-I headcount sports, even though it will still count as a 'full scholarship' for counter purposes, could a program give less than full grant-in-aid to a student-athlete?"
My understanding on "head count sports" was any player that gets even $1 in aid from the school counts as one player on scholarship.
Thus the name: you're counting the number of players on scholarship (a head count), not how many full ride scholarships are being offered.
Ur understanding not good
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Don't like it. "Partial scholarships" will make some infer you're saying they can be split up.
"For D-I headcount sports, even though it will still count as a 'full scholarship' for counter purposes, could a program give less than full grant-in-aid to a student-athlete?"
I think that this is it. Clear and straight to the point.
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Don't like it. "Partial scholarships" will make some infer you're saying they can be split up.
"For D-I headcount sports, even though it will still count as a 'full scholarship' for counter purposes, could a program give less than full grant-in-aid to a student-athlete?"
Ur understanding not good
Fair enough, I'll ask it as you have laid it out.
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Losing impacts attendance at Wisconsin Hockey that historically drew big attendance.
http://host.madison.com/ct/sports/college/hockey/badgers-men-s-hockey-draws-smallest-crowd-in-kohl-center/article_65fcb552-711a-11e5-a242-43324d310fee.html
I just looked up the latest stats.
For all DI men's hockey total revenues were $35.6 million. Expenses $41.9M. Net loss of $6.3M
DI Golf generated $39M. Expenses $66.7M. Net Loss of almost $30M
DI Men's soccer, $33M. Expenses $56.1M. Net loss of $23M.
Want some really crazy stats. Expenses for women's soccer? $147M....almost $100M more than the men.
In fact, when you exclude basketball and football, DI expenses for all women's sports is ~$1.1 billion. For the men, it is $703M.
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My understanding on "head count sports" was any player that gets even $1 in athletic aid from the school counts as one player on scholarship.
Thus the name: you're counting the number of players on scholarship (a head count), not how many full ride scholarships are being offered.
I think if you add one word, your understanding is correct (not counting things like gear, travel, etc. that even walk-ons receive). Not sure if that is what you meant, though.
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My understanding on "head count sports" was any player that gets even $1 in aid from the school counts as one player on scholarship.
Thus the name: you're counting the number of players on scholarship (a head count), not how many full ride scholarships are being offered.
In reality though it basically just becomes a full scholarship. No one's actually going to only give someone a half scholarship if they are still using up a full one. The argument at that point just becomes how anal you want to be about the literal definition.
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Anyone who can't afford to give full scholarships for headcount sports, assuming that is allowed, shouldn't be participating in D1 athletics anyway.
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Anyone who can't afford to give full scholarships for headcount sports, assuming that is allowed, shouldn't be participating in D1 athletics anyway.
If you're including those who cannot afford to fund all of the allowed scholarships (or decline to do so), I believe at present that might include the majority of the Big East -- including the reigning national champions in basketball.
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No the Big East members can afford to, they just choose not to. That's probably too subtle a difference to really defend however...
I guess I was just thinking about D1 schools that would give a basketball player 2/3 of a scholarship.
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No the Big East members can afford to, they just choose not to. That's probably too subtle a difference to really defend however...
I guess I was just thinking about D1 schools that would give a basketball player 2/3 of a scholarship.
Agreed. And that's why I said, "or decline to do so." Your point is well taken.
I am still very curious to know whether there are MBB programs out there that are less than fully funded (e.g., offering less money or intentionally not using all their scholarships). I'm doubtful, but it honestly wouldn't surprise me if some of the bottom dwellers in one-bid conferences aren't fully funded. But, as you said, maybe they shouldn't be participating in D1.
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How is this split up for transgenders, hey?
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How is this split up for transgenders, hey?
Tweet Sam Dekker and ax him
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Tweet Sam Dekker and ax him
Sam's a tranny?
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Well, it is a "revenue" sport, but not a profitable sport. Technically soccer is a revenue sport because there is a charge to get into the games, but they are so underwater from a profitability stand point.
Latest NCAA numbers, only about 35 schools are profitable in athletics. Now, a lot of that is because schools spend money at insane rates in the arms race of athletics. Despite revenues doubling in the last 10 years, their expenses have doubled as well. Sounds like a gov't run operation.
Are we one of them?
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I just looked up the latest stats.
For all DI men's hockey total revenues were $35.6 million. Expenses $41.9M. Net loss of $6.3M
DI Golf generated $39M. Expenses $66.7M. Net Loss of almost $30M
DI Men's soccer, $33M. Expenses $56.1M. Net loss of $23M.
Want some really crazy stats. Expenses for women's soccer? $147M....almost $100M more than the men.
In fact, when you exclude basketball and football, DI expenses for all women's sports is ~$1.1 billion. For the men, it is $703M.
Are there more women's soccer teams than men's? That would seem to explain it, if so.
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Are we one of them?
We list ourselves as flat. $28.6M in revenues, $28.6M in expenses.
http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstDetails.aspx?756e697469643d32333931303526796561723d323031342673656172636843726974657269613d3331336436643631373237313735363537343734363532363334336432373537343932373236373236343734336433343266333233343266333233303331333632303334336133323331336133333334323035303464267264743d342f32342f3230313620343a32313a333420504d
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We list ourselves as flat
http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstDetails.aspx?756e697469643d32333931303526796561723d323031342673656172636843726974657269613d3331336436643631373237313735363537343734363532363334336432373537343932373236373236343734336433343266333233343266333233303331333632303334336133323331336133333334323035303464267264743d342f32342f3230313620343a32313a333420504d
Link not working for me, but I'll take your word for it. Thanks.
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Are there more women's soccer teams than men's? That would seem to explain it, if so.
By a long shot. Men's soccer has 204 teams at D1. Women have 327. Furthermore men have a scholarship limit of 9.9 while women have 14.0.
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Want some really crazy stats. Expenses for women's soccer? $147M....almost $100M more than the men.
In fact, when you exclude basketball and football, DI expenses for all women's sports is ~$1.1 billion. For the men, it is $703M.
Well of course. Schools spend a lot of $$$ to balance out football scholarships.
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Link not working for me, but I'll take your word for it. Thanks.
(http://i68.tinypic.com/bx1mo.jpg)
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Well of course. Schools spend a lot of $$$ to balance out football scholarships.
The average fan doesn't know this. I realize many here do. But the average fan also talks about how unfair it is that certain guys aren't getting paid and have no clue the opportunities being given to hundreds of thousands of athletes due to the way it is structured right now.
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Are there more women's soccer teams than men's? That would seem to explain it, if so.
Yes, and many more scholarships. Same for volleyball, etc, etc. If you are a dude and don't play basketball or football, your chances at a DI scholarship are pretty small....much smaller than a female athlete.
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Who knew that Holly had such a passion for D1 scholarship information...
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By a long shot. Men's soccer has 204 teams at D1. Women have 327. Furthermore men have a scholarship limit of 9.9 while women have 14.0.
Oh, the inequality.
Yes, I supposed it's compensating for no women's football.
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CPA's bound by GAAP would nut at the chance to do what revenue and expense reporting by the NCAA allows.
It's complete nonsense. Not comparable school to school and subject to numerous choices.
Do not base thinking on reported NCAA program revenues or expenses, unless you want to be a stupid jerk.
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If you are a dude and don't play basketball or football, your chances at a DI scholarship are pretty small....much smaller than a female athlete.
So you're saying it would be highly unusual for a guy to get a full-ride track scholly, then?
(3.....2....1.....)
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CPA's bound by GAAP would nut at the chance to do what revenue and expense reporting by the NCAA allows.
It's complete nonsense. Not comparable school to school and subject to numerous choices.
Do not base thinking on reported NCAA program revenues or expenses, unless you want to be a stupid jerk.
Don't disagree with you at all, except it isn't really the NCAA advocating any of that accounting. Each school does it their own way and I've said that here for many years. Some apply expenses to the school, some do it in athletics, some shift stuff all over the place, but that isn't a NCAA thing....that's a school driven decision on how they want to recognize revenues and expenses.
However, it's all we have....if you have a better source, have at it.
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So you're saying it would be highly unusual for a guy to get a full-ride track scholly, then?
(3.....2....1.....)
I don't want to say that, but more difficult. Only 12.6 men's track and field scholarships. Women have 18.
I don't remember how many MU is actually covering for Track and Field these days. In other words, are we fully utilizing all scholarships available?
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However, it's all we have....if you have a better source, have at it.
That's not the debate. It's "is it a good source"???
The answer is NO. There is no good source. So citing those bogus sources is silly. End.
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That's not the debate. It's "is it a good source"???
The answer is NO. There is no good source. So citing those bogus sources is silly. End.
It's a source, you can debate whether it is good or not. It attempts to recognize revenues and expenses. I have actual budget sheets from when I was there, and quite frankly what I posted isn't that far bad at all based on the benchmarks of old. Only the numbers have gotten bigger across both sides.
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How 'bout that Holly Ellenson!
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How 'bout that Holly Ellenson!
no chit, a"ina? Who knew that her tweet "Smoke and Mirrors" was actually referring to University & athletic department accounting methods?
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Courtesy of the school's Twitter account this morning:
@Marquette U
“Follow your own passions and interests, not those of your parents, friends, or society." (https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1200/1*Ecc3BOvv0CW_NOQnXbKXWg.jpeg)
10:56am - 25 Apr 16
"Follow your own passions, not your parents" + "Up" reference (code for high jump) = obvious shade from the University towards Mama Ellenson
The saga continues.
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I think that this is it. Clear and straight to the point.
I asked one of my NCAA guys in Indianapolis and literally cut and paste the question to him.
He said he is 99% sure it is full scholarship or none. He doesn't work in that area, and is checking with someone who does.
Another friend that actually does work in that area is on PTO this week, but maybe I get an answer from her anyway.
More to come.
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If Wally is so good (per his mom), why doesn't he put his name into the NBA Draft and get evaluated by the pro scouts. Might be a cold splash of water to Mrs Ellenson's face. Cripes
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I asked one of my NCAA guys in Indianapolis and literally cut and paste the question to him.
He said he is 99% sure it is full scholarship or none. He doesn't work in that area, and is checking with someone who does.
Another friend that actually does work in that area is on PTO this week, but maybe I get an answer from her anyway.
More to come.
Good thing he left the 1% open, because.......
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Good thing he left the 1% open, because.......
.......
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.......
Because your wrong.
Schools have the discretion to award less than the full value of a scholarship in a headcount sport. If they give any amount, however it counts as a whole scholarship against the scholarship limit. For example, if a school has tuition remission and a staff member's son or daughter is recruited for basketball then the school could only give them what is not covered (usually fees, room and board).
Or, in a more common scenario, a school may not be able to fully find a sport, e,g.Women's Tennis. You get 8 scholarships in WTEN but the school may only fund 6.5, so some athletes will get a full but others may only get $30,000 (plus an academic scholarship or need grant if they qualify) but they count as one full scholarship.
No need to reach out to your "contact" at the NCAA, because you just did.
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Because your wrong.
Schools have the discretion to award less than the full value of a scholarship in a headcount sport. If they give any amount, however it counts as a whole scholarship against the scholarship limit. For example, if a school has tuition remission and a staff member's son or daughter is recruited for basketball then the school could only give them what is not covered (usually fees, room and board).
Or, in a more common scenario, a school may not be able to fully find a sport, e,g.Women's Tennis. You get 8 scholarships in WTEN but the school may only fund 6.5, so some athletes will get a full but others may only get $30,000 (plus an academic scholarship or need grant if they qualify) but they count as one full scholarship.
No need to reach out to your "contact" at the NCAA, because you just did.
"I've got a guy..."
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This is true. However...financial aid for student athletes is indexed to NCAA criteria.
Nope. All financial aid in the Ivy is blind and based upon the FAFSA and school aid policies as submitted to the Ivy League. No special treatment for athletes outside of a very limited number of "matches" (Harvard can give a higher amount due to their aid policies than Dartmouth so Dartmouth could increase to match Harvard's aid package if they really want that player).
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Nope. All financial aid in the Ivy is blind and based upon the FAFSA and school aid policies as submitted to the Ivy League. No special treatment for athletes outside of a very limited number of "matches" (Harvard can give a higher amount due to their aid policies than Dartmouth so Dartmouth could increase to match Harvard's aid package if they really want that player).
You are wrong. The awards are indexed.
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Nope. All financial aid in the Ivy is blind and based upon the FAFSA and school aid policies as submitted to the Ivy League. No special treatment for athletes outside of a very limited number of "matches" (Harvard can give a higher amount due to their aid policies than Dartmouth so Dartmouth could increase to match Harvard's aid package if they really want that player).
I don't know about the "indexed to NCAA criteria" thing (not even sure what this means), but I can confirm that in our experience they are focused on household income, and other Ivies promise to match Harvard or Yale (presumably because they have the biggest pots of money and offer the best aid). Coaches are completely involved in recruiting pitches and make a lot of great representations about all the financial aid available ("ignore that calculator on the website, it's not accurate") -- without even knowing the recruit's household financial situation. Once you talk with financial aid, you get the real story ("the calculator on the website is pretty accurate") and learn that the household financial situation is the only thing that matters.
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If Wally is so good (per his mom), why doesn't he put his name into the NBA Draft and get evaluated by the pro scouts. Might be a cold splash of water to Mrs Ellenson's face. Cripes
Right, because I'm sure that was her point...that he's so good. Good grief.
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Because your wrong.
Schools have the discretion to award less than the full value of a scholarship in a headcount sport. If they give any amount, however it counts as a whole scholarship against the scholarship limit. For example, if a school has tuition remission and a staff member's son or daughter is recruited for basketball then the school could only give them what is not covered (usually fees, room and board).
Or, in a more common scenario, a school may not be able to fully find a sport, e,g.Women's Tennis. You get 8 scholarships in WTEN but the school may only fund 6.5, so some athletes will get a full but others may only get $30,000 (plus an academic scholarship or need grant if they qualify) but they count as one full scholarship.
No need to reach out to your "contact" at the NCAA, because you just did.
Welcome to the board for the "first time" and locked in on this topic. LOL. Guess what, I'm still going to get it directly from the NCAA if you don't mind. You may be right, as I said....which is why I'm checking. If you read the thread, I've stated what I think the rule is, not emphatically said what it is. That's why we're checking.
But hey, again, welcome to the board "Billy". LOL
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You are wrong. The awards are indexed.
The only "index" in the Ivy is the admissions formula.
Outside of basketball Financial Aid is not even taken into consideration for rosters and limits. In basketball only recruited individuals receiving aid are counted and must stay below the 13 limit for men, 15 for women. However, anyone not recruited under the Ivy definition or recruiting but not receiving institutional aid is not counted towards the 13/15.
The Director of Financial Aid must sign off that all student-athletes were awarded institutional financial aid under the same formula as the rest of the student body and report that to the Ivy League offices annually. It is not uncommon for highly sought recruits to be ruled out because their award package is not high enough and their out of pocket expenses will be too high and they'd rather get a full scholarship elsewhere.
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Welcome to the board for the "first time" and locked in on this topic. LOL. Guess what, I'm still going to get it directly from the NCAA if you don't mind. You may be right, as I said....which is why I'm checking. If you read the thread, I've stated what I think the rule is, not emphatically said what it is. That's why we're checking.
But hey, again, welcome to the board "Billy". LOL
like I said, you already did.
Long time lurker here but being an expert in this area I figured I'd register and correct misinformation. I apologize if it hurt your feelings.
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You may be right, as I said....which is why I'm checking. If you read the thread, I've stated what I think the rule is, not emphatically said what it is.
Ahem...
"Head count sports = FULL RIDE
Equivalency sports = partials or full ride
http://www.athleticscholarships.net/sports-scholarships/head-count-versus-equivalency-scholarships.htm
Black and white. Been this way since I worked in various athletic departments and I don't think anything has changed it. We're going through this with my son right now, who would be in an equivalency sport."
I'd be interested to see what you characterize as emphatic. I suppose you could have said, "...and nothing has changed." But otherwise, when you're using all caps and dropping a "Black and white" on me, I'd consider that pretty emphatic.
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Outside of basketball Financial Aid is not even taken into consideration for rosters and limits. In basketball only recruited individuals receiving aid are counted and must stay below the 13 limit for men, 15 for women. However, anyone not recruited under the Ivy definition or recruiting but not receiving institutional aid is not counted towards the 13/15.
The Director of Financial Aid must sign off that all student-athletes were awarded institutional financial aid under the same formula as the rest of the student body and report that to the Ivy League offices annually. It is not uncommon for highly sought recruits to be ruled out because their award package is not high enough and their out of pocket expenses will be too high and they'd rather get a full scholarship elsewhere.
Precisely. As I said, the awards are indexed. Our son was offered a spot on an Ivy team but ended up playing in the Pac 12. The financial award was explained to us and it was pretty meager.
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"I've got a guy..."
Yup....worked with him at Marquette for 3 years...he's been at the NCAA for 18 years. He's provided me with a bunch of answers yesterday which I will share, but he's checking into one more thing.
Also have a gal there, who works in this particular area in terms of rules, but she is on PTO right now.
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like I said, you already did.
Long time lurker here but being an expert in this area I figured I'd register and correct misinformation. I apologize if it hurt your feelings.
Don't feel bad - despite his large brain and his vast network of connected people, correcting misinformation provided by Chico is a part time job shared by scores of people on Scoop. Welcome to the club.
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According to friend at NCAA for 18 years, counter sports are full ride or nothing. No partials.
Will confirm next week with another who will be back from vacation
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Ahem...
"Head count sports = FULL RIDE
Equivalency sports = partials or full ride
http://www.athleticscholarships.net/sports-scholarships/head-count-versus-equivalency-scholarships.htm
Black and white. Been this way since I worked in various athletic departments and I don't think anything has changed it. We're going through this with my son right now, who would be in an equivalency sport."
I'd be interested to see what you characterize as emphatic. I suppose you could have said, "...and nothing has changed." But otherwise, when you're using all caps and dropping a "Black and white" on me, I'd consider that pretty emphatic.
My business partner's son attends Pepperdine and plays golf for the school. He gets 15k a year for golf from the school.
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My business partner's son attends Pepperdine and plays golf for the school. He gets 15k a year for golf from the school.
Men's golf is an equivalency sport, so I think we all agree that partial scholarships and financial aid less than a full scholarships is allowed. The question upon which there is some disagreement is whether an athlete in a head count sport can receive less than full financial aid. I know the answer already. Chicos is just waiting to talk with someone at NCAA who actually knows the correct answer -- because he's been misinformed twice so far.
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I know the answer already. Chicos is just waiting to talk with someone at NCAA who actually knows the correct answer -- because he's been misinformed twice so far.
This is one of Chico's weirder disagreements. Is he trying to prove the schools recruiting your child were violating the rules? I don't know why he's dismissing "real word experience".
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This is one of Chico's weirder disagreements. Is he trying to prove the schools recruiting your child were violating the rules? I don't know why he's dismissing "real word experience".
In my opinion, there are a couple things going on here. First, we're discussing an issue that simply doesn't arise in the sports that anyone pays attention to (i.e., football and men's basketball) so people just don't know about it. Second, people (including me in some posts in this thread) use sloppy language and refer to "partial scholarships" which is not accurate and confuses the issue. There are no partial scholarships in head count sports. But I do not believe that means that schools are prohibited from offering less than full grant in aid to an athlete on a head count scholarship. I think the rules set the maximums that can be offered (in both numbers of scholarships and dollars), but not the minimums.
Another issue, I think, might be relating to semantics. I've read some things that suggest that under NCAA rules, if a head count athlete receives both athletic money (i.e., from the athletic department) and academic money (i.e., from the university), NCAA rules require it all to be counted as athletic money. But I'm not sure I'm completely understanding that.
I'll give Chicos the benefit of the doubt and suppose that he's thinking that I am misunderstanding/misinterpreting things and not that schools were breaking the rules.
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Just had another thought on this issue -- try to contain your excitement.
As we all know, the NCAA amended its rules to allow schools to provide full cost of attendance (COA). This is an increase for the athletes and allows compensation for things like transportation, laundry, etc. This is all new. It's been widely publicized that several of the power conferences adopted this and are offering COA. I've read of some schools offering more than $6,000. But many schools (most?) are not offering COA.
Why is this relevant to the current discussion? Because of the way the NCAA accomplished this rule change. They simply added COA to the definition of full grant-in-aid:
"15.02.05 Full Grant-in-Aid. [A] A full grant-in-aid is financial aid that consists of tuition and fees, room and board, books, and other expenses related to attendance at the institution up to the cost of attendance established pursuant to Bylaws 15.02.2 and 15.02.2.1. (Revised: 8/7/14, 1/17/15 effective 8/1/15)"
So, if a "full grant-in-aid" now includes COA, then any school not offering COA to athletes in head count sports -- and there are many -- is not offering full grant-in-aid. According to Chicos, this is not allowed.
This is offered as further evidence that schools are not required to offer full grant-in-aid to head count athletes. And while the COA rule is new, I don't think the underlying issue that we've been debating is new.
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No one is implying anyone is breaking the rules at all.
Stillawarrior...I will PDF the emails to you via PM tonight directly from the NCAA.
You can see if I asked the question correctly, the back and forth clarity questions, but he said headcount sports are full or none. I don't know what else to say.
You can take a look at the emails yourself.
Peace
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No one is implying anyone is breaking the rules at all.
Stillawarrior...I will PDF the emails to you via PM tonight directly from the NCAA.
You can see if I asked the question correctly, the back and forth clarity questions, but he said headcount sports are full or none. I don't know what else to say.
You can take a look at the emails yourself.
Peace
Would love to see the emails. Again, the question is whether it would hypothetically be allowed if a school - for whatever reason - decided to give less than full grant-in-aid. That's it.
"Direct from the NCAA" doesn't mean it's correct because someone works there...
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Would love to see the emails. Again, the question is whether it would hypothetically be allowed if a school - for whatever reason - decided to give less than full grant-in-aid. That's it.
"Direct from the NCAA" doesn't mean it's correct because someone works there...
It is and is rather common and done in a couple of ways as in head count sports we're talking about "counters" meaning anyone receiving any amount of an athletic grant-in-aid (bylaw 15.02.3). Head count sports mean the team is restricted in the number of athletes that can be on scholarship. Here are various ways schools can do it:
1 - full ride
2 - full which includes an academic scholarship awarded consistent with institutional policies, or a need based award
3 - partial amount on its own or including academic or financial need based award
Another example here: Doug McDermott. He got tuition paid for through the faculty/staff benefit but athletics paid the remaining amount (usually fees, books, room and board).
In all of the above situation, in a head count sport the student-athlete uses one of the counter spots towards the NCAA limit. Head count sports are limited to the number of scholarships they give, it is not mandatory that they give the full amount.
In fact, under bylaw 15.5.1.1, a recruited student-athlete in football or basketball who receives only institutional aid becomes a counter against the limit once they compete in a varsity intercollegiate contest.
As the late, great Paul Harvey used to say: "and know you know the rest of the story."
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet but Wally placed 3rd at the Drake Relays this weekend with a jump of 2.18m (7-01.75 ft)
Looks like he is still a full 10 cm (4 inches) off the qualifying height for Rio so I would guess his best Olympic chances are Tokyo 2020.
http://results.deltatiming.com/drake/tf/2016-drake-relays/160427F150
http://www.usatf.org/Events---Calendar/2016/U-S--Olympic-Team-Trials---Track---Field/Athlete-Information/Qualifying-Standards.aspx
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet but Wally placed 3rd at the Drake Relays this weekend with a jump of 2.18m (7-01.75 ft)
Looks like he is still a full 10 cm (4 inches) off the qualifying height for Rio so I would guess his best Olympic chances are Tokyo 2020.
http://results.deltatiming.com/drake/tf/2016-drake-relays/160427F150
http://www.usatf.org/Events---Calendar/2016/U-S--Olympic-Team-Trials---Track---Field/Athlete-Information/Qualifying-Standards.aspx
Maybe he'll have a change of heart and recommit his life to basketball so Wojo can tell return his basketball scholarship while telling Gill "thanks, but no."
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Looks like he is still a full 10 cm (4 inches) off the qualifying height for Rio so I would guess his best Olympic chances are Tokyo 2020.
Looks like Wally fell 4 inches short in two different sports.
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...literally cut and paste the question to him.
Sort of...
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In all of the above situation, in a head count sport the student-athlete uses one of the counter spots towards the NCAA limit. Head count sports are limited to the number of scholarships they give, it is not mandatory that they give the full amount.
In fact, under bylaw 15.5.1.1, a recruited student-athlete in football or basketball who receives only institutional aid becomes a counter against the limit once they compete in a varsity intercollegiate contest.
As the late, great Paul Harvey used to say: "and know you know the rest of the story."
Might be the rest of the story, but I suspect these are the exceptions for the vast majority of schools.
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Pretty bad for any dude to fall 4 inches short, ai na?
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Pretty bad for any dude to fall 4 inches short, ai na?
You measure in inches Doc?