What on earth am I missing?

[real chili 83]

IMHO, Wojo deserves about 25% blame for this year's failure. 

The braintrust that created the OOC schedule another 25+ (which may include Wojo.)

The remainder is a combo of Buzz, LWilliams, Pilarz.

The thread started with trying to deflect blame from Wojo, but .. does anyone think he's the one mostly to blame?

Edit: Not Cottingham.  So many ADs to remember.

Topper, you are right on. This problem was set in place by the leadership in place 4 years ago. The new guys are working their a$$ off to find a recipe for long term success. Give them time.

[KenoshaWarrior]

Agree entirely.

Grad rates were declining.
APR rates declining.
Police blotter incidents increasing.
Brand tarnishment and constant PR mode.
The last year, who knows what he was doing.


Admin has a university to run, not just a basketball program.

This 3 year streak of mediocrity is way more damaging for the brand

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

[quote author=Lennys TapChicosBailBonds link=topic=51136.msg816447#msg816447 date=1458008938]
BuzzCrean preceded WojoBuzz at Marquette. There is a faction on Scoop who is dishonest about what BuzzCrean was at MU and what he is now. As long as they're taking cheap shots and making stuff up about BuzzCrean (which evidently doesn't bother you) I reserve the right to set the record straight.
[/quote]

I'm sorry, this was just too perfect.


Also, I haven't seen anything dishonest posted about Buzz. I've seen exaggerations and jokes. But nothing worse than Crean or Wojo gets. And I was dubbed Grand Admiral of the Slurper regime.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'm sorry, this was just too perfect.

What cheap shots is he talking about?

Our APR rates went down under Buzz.  Fact

Our graduation rates went down under Buzz.  Fact

Our covers on the Chicago Tribune, evening news, police blotter activity went up.  Fact

He came in with a ready made NCAA team, he left with a team not capable of the NIT.  Fact

What on earth could he deny in these facts?

Buzz is a really good coach, especially when the talent is already there and ready made.  On the high school talent, mixed bag at best. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

This 3 year streak of mediocrity is way more damaging for the brand

The university is doing fine, and they would like to not have that kind of damage control to have to deal with.

Seriously Nate, you may want to adopt a new school where that stuff is tolerated, because it won't be at MU. 

[Lennys Tap]

Also, I haven't seen anything dishonest posted about Buzz. I've seen exaggerations and jokes. But nothing worse than Crean or Wojo gets. And I was dubbed Grand Admiral of the Slurper regime.

You must have Lindsay Vonn on ignore.

[MUDPT]

Chico's, I apologize if I riled you up on the other thread.  Just trying to understand what you are saying.  I see age in college basketball on a relative ladder.  Guys make relatively equal improvements year to year.  Just to make sure I have you right, are you saying there is a bigger difference between freshman and sophomore year versus sophomore and junior year?  If so, have you seen any data to back that up? I'm just curious.

[NotAnAlum]

Chico's, I apologize if I riled you up on the other thread.  Just trying to understand what you are saying.  I see age in college basketball on a relative ladder.  Guys make relatively equal improvements year to year.  Just to make sure I have you right, are you saying there is a bigger difference between freshman and sophomore year versus sophomore and junior year?  If so, have you seen any data to back that up? I'm just curious.

I have heard that said by a number of informed sources on TV.  I don't have stats at hand but think about it for a minute.  A freshman is making the jump from High School ball where he is probably the best by far on his team or in his league and maybe in his state to college where almost everybody is at least as good as he is and older.  He goes from playing in gyms near his home to huge stadiums and on TV.  The defenses are much more complex.  With all that to consider that is a big jump.  The jump from freshman to Soph you are expected to play a greater role but other than that EVERYTHING is the same as the prior year.
Therefore it would seem to make sense that a player would be able to improve more between freshman and soph than the other years because he faces so many handicaps that first year.  The only other "inflection point" would come between junior and senior when the sense of urgency sets in.  To me this all makes sense and I would bet that if you could somehow study it holding other things constant you'd find its true. 

[Marcus92]

I'd be interested to see what Value Add has to say about improvement between freshmen vs. sophomores, juniors and seniors.

And, beyond the average improvement, I'd like to know more about the range and distribution involved. If you roll two dice, add the total, and do that 100 times, the average will likely be about 7. But for any single roll of the dice, the probability of getting exactly a 7 is just under 17%. In other words, about 83% of the time, you'll get a result that's higher or lower.

No two college players are exactly alike. Some show slow and steady improvement throughout college. Others improve by leaps and bounds from one year to the next. What do the numbers tell us?

[muguru]

What cheap shots is he talking about?

Our APR rates went down under Buzz.  Fact

Our graduation rates went down under Buzz.  Fact

Our covers on the Chicago Tribune, evening news, police blotter activity went up.  Fact

He came in with a ready made NCAA team, he left with a team not capable of the NIT.  Fact




What on earth could he deny in these facts?

Buzz is a really good coach, especially when the talent is already there and ready made.  On the high school talent, mixed bag at best.

He won games...That's all that I was concerned about...He won and did it within the rules...the rest...makes no difference to me at all. I'm not an alum, just a long time season ticket holder(and donor), all I care about is the basketball team, and how much they win. Period. The basketball program is/was Marquette that's their identity. They spend as much or more $$ than any team in the country on their program...You'd think they'd expect the results to reflect that. The last three years they haven't...I hope as much or more than anyone Wojo wins a national championship at MU, but right now, regardless of anything else, he hasn't even gotten them in the postseason. I think Wojo was a bit of a panic move by MU after getting jilted by Shaka's wife. Nothing says settle more than going after a big fish, missing out than "settling" for an asst Coach at a big time program.

It's like asking the hottest girl in school out, getting rejected and then settling for the girl that you know will date you, isnt nearly as hot, but it's better than not being with anyone at all. So you go the "safe" route.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chico's, I apologize if I riled you up on the other thread.  Just trying to understand what you are saying.  I see age in college basketball on a relative ladder.  Guys make relatively equal improvements year to year.  Just to make sure I have you right, are you saying there is a bigger difference between freshman and sophomore year versus sophomore and junior year?  If so, have you seen any data to back that up? I'm just curious.

No problem, I wasn't riled up.  I mean that. 

I think the biggest jump from an emotional, deer in the headlights perspective is freshman to sophomore year.  Think about your own life in college, or high school.  Freshman year is tough.  Everything is new.  Process, expectations, how to survive, etc.  I think Al said it best..the best thing about freshmen is they become sophomores.

Now, a lot of guys make huge improvements in their game the last two years, but I think the sloppiness part, the turnovers, the understanding of what it takes to prepare, how to win on the road, etc, etc....a lot of that is learned in your first few years.  Ideally we would have older guys helping out the younger guys, unfortunately we are so damn young they are having to learn from each other. 

My two cents.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

You must have Lindsay Vonn on ignore.

That was funny.

But no, I see his posts. So far nothing dishonest. There were issues when Buzz was here. That is true. I, like others thought they were more episodic than systematic and to be completely honest, some of the issues, didn't bother me that much. College kids going to clubs and one getting in a fight is definitely bad, but I also see normal college students do that every day. Maybe that makes me #justwinbaby or a bad person but its how I feel. I still like Buzz and I hope he does well at Oklahoma State...er....Virginia Tech. I think its better for Marquette if there former coaches do well.

[ChicosBailBonds]

He won games...That's all that I was concerned about...He won and did it within the rules...the rest...makes no difference to me at all. I'm not an alum, just a long time season ticket holder(and donor), all I care about is the basketball team, and how much they win. Period. The basketball program is/was Marquette that's their identity. They spend as much or more $$ than any team in the country on their program...You'd think they'd expect the results to reflect that. The last three years they haven't...I hope as much or more than anyone Wojo wins a national championship at MU, but right now, regardless of anything else, he hasn't even gotten them in the postseason. I think Wojo was a bit of a panic move by MU after getting jilted by Shaka's wife. Nothing says settle more than going after a big fish, missing out than "settling" for an asst Coach at a big time program.

It's like asking the hottest girl in school out, getting rejected and then settling for the girl that you know will date you, isnt nearly as hot, but it's better than not being with anyone at all. So you go the "safe" route.

For many alumni, they view it differently. Think about the 80% of students that didn't buy tickets even when we were good?  When I ran marketing for the athletic department I put out a survey to alums and season ticket holders, the amount of people that are passive fans or non fans is very high....but that isn't unique to MU, that is the case at many schools.  Sure, there are schools in the South that sell out 100,000 seat stadiums, but there is a reason for that which doesn't translate here.

I think you have to put things through the perspective of the President of the school that is protecting the image of the university.  If Buzz's guys "won" as you stated, that would be great.  But he didn't "just win", there was a lot of crap that came with it that pulled the university through 2+ years of media exposure that was damning.   There's a reason why CEOs protect brands and image, the university is doing the same.  Buzz couldn't contain his guys.

[ChicosBailBonds]

That was funny.

But no, I see his posts. So far nothing dishonest. There were issues when Buzz was here. That is true. I, like others thought they were more episodic than systematic and to be completely honest, some of the issues, didn't bother me that much. College kids going to clubs and one getting in a fight is definitely bad, but I also see normal college students do that every day. Maybe that makes me #justwinbaby or a bad person but its how I feel. I still like Buzz and I hope he does well at Oklahoma State...er....Virginia Tech. I think its better for Marquette if there former coaches do well.

I hope Buzz does well also.  Thank you for backing me up, I'm not being dishonest.  I actually agree much of it was episodic, problem was they kept coming and didn't stop.  Despite the pleading, there was always another episode and it culminated.  They couldn't get out of their own way.  Eventually, you have to say enough.  The sexual assault stuff, was huge.

[NorthernDancerColt]

The university is doing fine, and they would like to not have that kind of damage control to have to deal with.

Seriously Nate, you may want to adopt a new school where that stuff is tolerated, because it won't be at MU.

I just saw a piece on ComcastSportsNet in Chicago which focused on the "Sorry State" of affairs in Illinoís regarding the in-state schools continuing to have little presence in the Chicago recruiting scene. Much lamenting of the top talent getting away to out-of-state powers due to the locals (NU, DePaul, UofI, UIC) not maintaining solid relationships with the Chi Public League coaches. David Kaplan intimated that the real reason for the relationship vaccuum is the inordinate influence AAU coaches have in the Chicago area, and the attendant conflicts involving shoe companies. This is paraphrasing Kappy, but he basically said , "You have to be skilled at understanding the game within the game, and be ready to play." Yet, who swept in and signed Jabari Parker? Jahlil Okafer? None other than Duke. I'm not suggesting Duke did anything untoward. And both those kids are by most accounts good people.
I'm just saying that we shouldn't get the naive  idea that clean, "model",  programs don't also "play the game". Didn't AL say something about it being a good thing people don't know that recruiting resembles the sausage-making process? And that was the 1970s for goodness sakes!! This being said, I think Wojo may be being held to a higher, cleaner standard of recruiting than maybe he has ever been held, even at Duke. That fact should not be lost on any of us, like myself, who want Wojo to stay here for a long, long time. I hope the administration does not tie his hands when a good kid truly belongs at MU, but a slight blip on his past radar causes an unfair overreaction by Board types.

I think Wojo is doing an amazing job attracting quality human beings to our beloved MU. I heard Haanif interviewed after the game at DePaul. He sounded like a seasoned veteran Senior, as far as the way he carried himself and his vocabulary. That said, his play is at an even higher level. Wojo is doing things the right way. He will continue to attract the highest quality student-athletes, and that is no easy task. I am comforted knowing that being a quality human being is a prerequisite for any MU recruit. That said, of course we all want great athletes with tremendous skill-sets to choose MU. But, maybe we should reference Nick Nolte's speech from BlueChips each season. You know...the team and coaches busted their *@##&! for 8 months, won 20 games, went to class, worked hard in school, gave their absolute all, and you know what...it's not good enough for you!!! 

Buzz's guys were absolute junkyard dogs, and who couldn't love JFB, Jae, Lazar, Wes etc?? There is something to be said about guys that the world had given up on. You talk about fire and chips on shoulders!!!! One poster made a good point that this may be missing from our current group.  Unfortunately, a couple bad incidents under Buzz sullied our school's image. None of us have ALL the facts to play judge and jury. Buzz is gone. He did a hell of a job on the basketball court and he is to be lauded for changing multiple kids lives for the better. Wojo, when all is said and done, will get the absolute best from the kids he brings in. A kid or two may come running to hug him after a key win to wrap up a BigEast title or three or four. So what that his kids may have a little higher starting point in life, in general?? Yet, I wouldn't say that to Traci's face. He might disagree with that.

We may not win every game, but we will indeed, pardon the cliche, win every day....because that means everyone is on the same page, from Admin to Coaches to Players to Students, all doing their absolute best to get our program back to where we are meant to be....and doing it the right way...for who we are today.

[KenoshaWarrior]

Unlike Chicos who hoped and prayed buzz would be gone, I am hoping that Wojo Turns this around and makes me eat crow.   I am not Anti Wojo.  I was am Pro-Buzz and was Pro-Crean because they both won games.      Hopefully next year I will be a Pro-Wojo convert!

[Golden Avalanche]

This 3 year streak of mediocrity is way more damaging for the brand

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/emdm45emkmf/20-marquette-golden-eag/


Forbes just announced Marquette is the 20th most valuable program in the United States for 2016. The brand is on fire.

[The Lens]

Buzz left in March of 2014.

The sexual assault stories (which I would have been fine if they fired him then) hit their apex in Oct 2011 (Chicago Tribune reporting of past incidents).

After that, I believe the only dirty thing was Monarch being canned in August 2012.

If anything, you could make the argument MU pushed him out when the winning stopped, not when the incidents peaked.

[Pakuni]

Buzz left in March of 2014.

The sexual assault stories (which I would have been fine if they fired him then) hit their apex in Oct 2011 (Chicago Tribune reporting of past incidents).

After that, I believe the only dirty thing was Monarch being canned in August 2012.

If anything, you could make the argument MU pushed him out when the winning stopped, not when the incidents peaked.

But nobody pushed him out. They set standards/conditions under which they wanted the program to operate. Buzz chose not to work under those conditions and sought employment elsewhere.

I know people are inclined to seek out a bad guy in these situations, but I don't think there is one here. The university is completely justified in establishing what it sees as appropriate standards. And Buzz is well within his rights to work within that framework or not. He chose not. Life goes on.

[ecompt]

But nobody pushed him out. They set standards/conditions under which they wanted the program to operate. Buzz chose not to work under those conditions and sought employment elsewhere.

I know people are inclined to seek out a bad guy in these situations, but I don't think there is one here. The university is completely justified in establishing what it sees as appropriate standards. And Buzz is well within his rights to work within that framework or not. He chose not. Life goes on.

Absolutely. Hopefully Wojo can win with those standards.

[BM1090]

Rocky - Buzz never had the chance to coach Duane or Luke and only had JJJ and Deonte as freshmen. That said, I'm not suggesting he left all that much for Wojo - but he certainly left a hell of a lot more behind than what he found waiting for him at Virginia Tech. Despite that, and despite the fact that Va Tech has no history to draw on, Buzz is further along in his rebuild than Wojo is.

My opinion is that if a guy doesn't fit under the new coach and transfers out, then he didn't really "leave" that player for the new coach. I don't think we can count Deonte, STJ, or Dawson. Buzz left Wojo with Fischer, Anderson, both D. Wilsons, JJ and I'll count Cohen. So 3 pretty good players for a 13 man roster. That's pretty damn bare. Va Tech had more talent than us last year and this year it was close, IMO.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

But nobody pushed him out. They set standards/conditions under which they wanted the program to operate. Buzz chose not to work under those conditions and sought employment elsewhere.

I know people are inclined to seek out a bad guy in these situations, but I don't think there is one here. The university is completely justified in establishing what it sees as appropriate standards. And Buzz is well within his rights to work within that framework or not. He chose not. Life goes on.

Well said

[WarriorPride68]

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/emdm45emkmf/20-marquette-golden-eag/


Forbes just announced Marquette is the 20th most valuable program in the United States for 2016. The brand is on fire.

That is an interesting list wisco at 9, northwestern at 15, and Dayton at 17.

Top 20 sounds damn good to me though

[RushmoreAcademy]

That is an interesting list wisco at 9, northwestern at 15, and Dayton at 17.

Top 20 sounds damn good to me though

Xavier right in front of us at 19.

[79Warrior]

That is an interesting list wisco at 9, northwestern at 15, and Dayton at 17.

Top 20 sounds damn good to me though

Dayton at 17. That should set some hair on fire.