Some perspective

[Lennys Tap]

Expectations grounded in fallacies.  Many of us here told folks back in September how crazy people were to say NCAAs.  We said NIT at best.  Can't help it if people are delusional in their expectations.

Just what you said in 2009-10. We ended up with a 6 seed.

[MUFlutieEffect]

I keep hearing this craziness about sucking, or 3 years no post season.  First of all, no one knows the latter yet, so let's wait a few hours.

Secondly, some of you guys must be in their 20's or 30's....I can't believe anyone in their 40's has already forgotten about Dukiet and O'Neill's first few years.  It took KO 4 years to go to any post season tournament.  Wojo is in year two and the team improved from the first year to the second.  We'll see what happens next year.

Good recruits coming in, players understanding the style he wants to play..this is why you give a coach 4 or 5 years.  Some of this knee jerk stuff....give it a rest.  No way we should have missed all the post season Buzz's last year, but we did..he left...his guys transferred or didn't come, what was left wasn't the right pieces.  So we've had a coach have to take what he has and try to get his guys into the mix, that takes time if you aren't cutting corners, cheating, etc.  Patience.

This is the first and ONLY time since 1963-66 that MU has missed three consecutive postseasons. 

No additional perspective is necessary.

[ChicosBailBonds]

This is the first and ONLY time since 1963-66 that MU has missed three consecutive postseasons. 

No additional perspective is necessary.

Likely by choice...I suspect if we wanted in to one of the other tournaments, we could have got in.   You can thank Bumstead and how he left the program.  Fortunately we are on the way up, despite the hand left to his successor.

[MUFlutieEffect]

Likely by choice...I suspect if we wanted in to one of the other tournaments, we could have got in.   You can thank Bumstead and how he left the program.  Fortunately we are on the way up, despite the hand left to his successor.

Perhaps skipped the Vegas 16 "by choice," but it's irrelevant.  As far as postseason appearances are concerned, this is a 50-year low, and I'm not seeing any way around that.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Perhaps skipped the Vegas 16 "by choice," but it's irrelevant.  As far as postseason appearances are concerned, this is a 50-year low, and I'm not seeing any way around that.

Again, thank Bumstead.

[MomofMUltiples]

Win or lose, I love my teams.  This team gave us some exciting moments this season (remember the first Providence win?).  They also gave us some extreme lows -- like the Iowa and Butler losses.  The team worked their butts off and came up short.  But I have to be encouraged by the forward progress of this season.

As a contrast, consider the Richard Pitino era at Minnesota.  In his first year, he took a bunch of Tubby's players who had gone to the round of 32 the previous year and won the the NIT.  Year 2, he had 6 wins in the B1G and an overall 18-15 record.  This year, they had 2 wins in the B1G and were 8-23 overall. In the meantime, the program has been beset with discipline problems (including the suspension of three guards at the end of this season, and unexplained and sudden dismissal of a senior captain and the expulsion of a Pitino recruit for assault) and difficult recruiting (Jarvis Johnson not being cleared to play).  Now we Gopher fans are praying that Coffey doesn't ask for his release and Murphy doesn't decide to transfer and that both will stick around when Pitino inevitably is let go next year. This, people, is what a program that's imploding under a new coach looks like. Yet, I'm still a fan and season ticket holder.  I go to every game I'm in town for.

That's my perspective.  I believe Marquette has a bright future and will regain basketball greatness.  I prefer to be positive about a bunch of 18- 22 year olds who want to represent my schools playing basketball.  I'm already looking forward to next season.  We'll see what we can do.

[MUFlutieEffect]

As a contrast, consider the Richard Pitino era at Minnesota. 

Hey, I'm all for positivity, but there's a difference between "glass is half-full" and really reaching to find something to be happy about.

Seems like your claim is "hey, some schools are worse than us!" 

Those same schools make a FRACTION of the investment in hoops that Marquette makes and can't hold a flame to MU Basketball's history.  I'd hardly consider beating the Gophers something to get excited about.

[MUDPT]

1) Experience replaces talent often. 

2) Are you going to be real and compare what Cuonzo walked into vs Wojo?  Cuonzo took over a 21 win team that went to the 3rd round of the NIT.  Wojo took over a team that went.....nowhere.

3) Look at what you just said on experience.  Cal is 258 while MU is 344.  Meaning, 98% of teams were more experienced than MU, while 73% of teams were more experienced than Cal's.  Yes, it makes a difference.  Lets also not forget that it comes down to actually plays, not just guys that sit on the bench.  Seton Hall is led by a senior who has been to 3 NCAA tournaments.  Please show me the senior that we have on our team that has played in even one NCAA tournament?

1. So we are sold on Wojo as a great recruiter, but we also have to wait for all of his top 100 recruits to be what junior, seniors? When?  Why not just have a solid X and O's coach kind of like, say Butler? 

2. Cal was 64 in Pomeroy in 2014. MU was 76, HUGE difference.  In fact Cal was rated lower than us last year, but somehow flew by us this year.

3. Sorry, do you really think Derrick Gordon is Seton Hall's leader? He plays 58% of their minutes, that's less than any of their starters.  I have no idea what kind of leader he is in the locker room, but his play on the court is not in any way the main reason that Seton Hall is where they are.  Providence is 322 in experience by the way.

I think we all have the right to be frustrated.

[Norm]

I keep hearing this craziness about sucking, or 3 years no post season.  First of all, no one knows the latter yet, so let's wait a few hours.

Secondly, some of you guys must be in their 20's or 30's....I can't believe anyone in their 40's has already forgotten about Dukiet and O'Neill's first few years.  It took KO 4 years to go to any post season tournament.  Wojo is in year two and the team improved from the first year to the second.  We'll see what happens next year.

Good recruits coming in, players understanding the style he wants to play..this is why you give a coach 4 or 5 years.  Some of this knee jerk stuff....give it a rest.  No way we should have missed all the post season Buzz's last year, but we did..he left...his guys transferred or didn't come, what was left wasn't the right pieces.  So we've had a coach have to take what he has and try to get his guys into the mix, that takes time if you aren't cutting corners, cheating, etc.  Patience.

Kevin O'Neill's first MU team went to the NIT. His next two missed the postseason and then he finished with two trips to the NCAAs.

[MomofMUltiples]

Seems like your claim is "hey, some schools are worse than us!" 

Not really.  My point is that Marquette's rebuilding is going in the right direction.  There are folks on here who believe that only a postseason appearance (or only the NCAAs) denote success in this program.  I understand your disappointment. I choose to look at other factors, and put a lot of stock in hope.   There's always another season, and there are still moves for Wojo to make this spring.  And so, I put this season to bed.  We'll get'em next year.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Again, thank Bumstead.

Bumstead took over at a worse situation and is in the post-season. Cuonzo took over a tough situation and is a 4 seed in the Big Dance. When exactly is Wojo on the clock?  Enough of the deflections.

Here is a stat for you:  Wojo has 15 home losses in two years, Buzz had 15 home losses in six seasons. Last time MU had 15 or more losses over two seasons was 1964-65.  Think about that.

What other news is coming?

[muguru]

Bumstead took over at a worse situation and is in the post-season. Cuonzo took over a tough situation and is a 4 seed in the Big Dance. When exactly is Wojo on the clock?  Enough of the deflections.

Here is a stat for you:  Wojo has 15 home losses in two years, Buzz had 15 home losses in six seasons. Last time MU had 15 or more losses over two seasons was 1964-65.  Think about that.

What other news is coming?

Well said Dr...it's the home losses that are the most maddening...It wasn't that long ago the BC was regarded as one of the toughest places to play...TC's teams almost NEVER lost at home, and Buzz and TC's teams, there was one thing that that stood out with them...it seemed like no matter how big they got down, they would almost always get there way back into it, maybe not had enough to pull it out, but got within striking distance. We havent seen much of that with Wojo's teams yet.

[Jay Bee]

3. The whole experience factor as an excuse. Seton Hall: 321. Us: 344. 

I think you need to consider the calculations in a... deeper... manner.

MU had freshman play about 45-46% of its minutes.

Seton Hall? Around 11%.

Sure, we had a couple of juniors - including Luke who had never played a full season - but this team relied heavily on freshmen. Freshmen such as Traci and Hanny who had poor turnover rates - something that hurt us a lot this year.

[CountryRoads]

Well said Dr...it's the home losses that are the most maddening...It wasn't that long ago the BC was regarded as one of the toughest places to play...TC's teams almost NEVER lost at home, and Buzz and TC's teams, there was one thing that that stood out with them...it seemed like no matter how big they got down, they would almost always get there way back into it, maybe not had enough to pull it out, but got within striking distance. We havent seen much of that with Wojo's teams yet.

Home games suck now. They aren't exciting anymore. Place is a morgue.

Buzzs guys were so easy to cheer for. That's just being honest. They played tough D and always played with a chip on their shoulder. Always got the crowd going and their underdog stories of how they made it to MU was always cool. That's what made it a tough place to play.

We don't recruit guys that have that chip on their shoulder anymore. If there was one it was quickly brushed off and vacuumed up as soon as wojo arrived.  More crew cuts less dreads. Like Larry envisioned.

[DegenerateDish]

I feel like MU is stuck in college basketball hell right now. The program is by no means awful, but I don't know where they go in the next two years.

With HE gone, is MU going to play a bad non league schedule again to round the team into some confidence? It's frustrating and fleeting to have a lottery pick on the roster and have the season go nowhere. MU doesn't get the caliber recruit of HE regularly, and his one year here will go down as non-descript.

Frustrating...MU is a great basketball school, it's very tough this time of year not seeing them in the field of 68.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Only because of Henry who will be gone

No, not only because of Henry. Henry was the biggest piece but not the only piece. As far as anyone knows, we are only losing one player (and that's not even for sure). Yes he's our best player, but he's only one. I understand the fear that we will be too small to compete next season, but overall our team will be better next season than it was this season. Again, assuming no other major defections.

[ChicosBailBonds]

1. So we are sold on Wojo as a great recruiter, but we also have to wait for all of his top 100 recruits to be what junior, seniors? When?  Why not just have a solid X and O's coach kind of like, say Butler? 

2. Cal was 64 in Pomeroy in 2014. MU was 76, HUGE difference.  In fact Cal was rated lower than us last year, but somehow flew by us this year.

3. Sorry, do you really think Derrick Gordon is Seton Hall's leader? He plays 58% of their minutes, that's less than any of their starters.  I have no idea what kind of leader he is in the locker room, but his play on the court is not in any way the main reason that Seton Hall is where they are.  Providence is 322 in experience by the way.

I think we all have the right to be frustrated.

1)  No, I don't think you have to wait until they are juniors and seniors, but more than just freshmen
2) That Cal team played 3 post season games in the NIT.  MU played 0.  That is a HUGE difference.  A post season team earning post season experience vs a team that earned none.
3)  Again, who played the minutes.  MU's youngsters played close to half the minutes.  Seton Hall's, not even close.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Kevin O'Neill's first MU team went to the NIT. His next two missed the postseason and then he finished with two trips to the NCAAs.

You're right, I forgot...against Penn State or someone.  Can't remember....I should, I was a student at the time and interning for the department.  I'm getting old.

[BM1090]

1)  No, I don't think you have to wait until they are juniors and seniors, but more than just freshmen
2) That Cal team played 3 post season games in the NIT.  MU played 0.  That is a HUGE difference.  A post season team earning post season experience vs a team that earned none.
3)  Again, who played the minutes.  MU's youngsters played close to half the minutes.  Seton Hall's, not even close.

Exactly. My issue that is that everyone complaining seems to be ignoring that last year we finished the year with 7 scholarship players and finished tied for last in the Big East. It was progress. If we take a step back next year, then there is cause for concern. But we clearly progressed from last year to this year and throughout the season.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Bumstead took over at a worse situation and is in the post-season. Cuonzo took over a tough situation and is a 4 seed in the Big Dance. When exactly is Wojo on the clock?  Enough of the deflections.

Here is a stat for you:  Wojo has 15 home losses in two years, Buzz had 15 home losses in six seasons. Last time MU had 15 or more losses over two seasons was 1964-65.  Think about that.

What other news is coming?

Do you guys even pay attention to what you write?  I know a lot of you are in the fetal position right now, but most of you (especially you Blackheart) are smarter than this.

Both (Va Tech and Cal) of them had much more experienced teams than we did.  Cal has an experienced team of juniors and seniors, I don't know how that slipped your mind.  What I wouldn't do for a solid, senior point guard

Cal
Tryone Wallace, leading scorer and their Point Guard....a senior
Jordan Matthews, 3rd leading scorer...a junior
Jabari Bird, 5th leading scorer....a junior

First two guys off the bench....junior and redshirt sophomore.

Va Tech...same thing
Zach Leday....top scorer....Transfer Junior from South Florida
Seth Allen....2nd leading scorer....Transfer Junior from Maryland
Justin Bibbs....3rd leading scorer...Sophomore

They played freshmen, but their top three guys had experience, including two that played at other schools and transferred to VaTech and sat out an extra year to get more experience.


That's wonderful about Buzz's home losses....Buzz walked into a great gig at Marquette, Wojo did not....ironically, because of how Wojo left it for him.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Well said Dr...it's the home losses that are the most maddening...It wasn't that long ago the BC was regarded as one of the toughest places to play...TC's teams almost NEVER lost at home, and Buzz and TC's teams, there was one thing that that stood out with them...it seemed like no matter how big they got down, they would almost always get there way back into it, maybe not had enough to pull it out, but got within striking distance. We havent seen much of that with Wojo's teams yet.

I agree, we will have to get better at defending home court....but I'd also remind you that our first two years with Crean at home we weren't that great either.  It took time, to get his guys, etc.  So why, after only ONE YEAR of recruits from the current coach are you guys acting like he's had 3 or 4 years?  He hasn't.  He came in with guys not honoring their commitments, later more transferred out, what the hell do you guys expect?  Good Lord.

[MU82]

Waaah waaah waaah ... oh poor us!

[UticaBusBarn]

Maybe this will help with the part you feel is perplexing.  I've added the KenPom Power Rank next to the opponent keeping in mind that MU was 105 and if it was home, away or neutral

Viewed that way the inconsistency just makes sense.  We lost to 2 teams that were a lot better than we were.  We beat one as expected and may have preformed a little better than predicted against GT even at home.  Add to that young teams tend to be inconsistent.

Thank you for pointing this out. I think we agree, as my point was the Warriors got a beatdown well beyond the spread.

To say it in another way, Marquette did not appear to consistently play with an edge ... except, of course,  for "Mad Dog" Carter. Even JJJ, as well as he played down the stretch, suffered from moments when he seemed to simply fade out.

The underlying question is, Why? Over coaching? Individual player skill set? Chemistry? Freshmen? I think we will know a great deal more when we read the next chapter of the "Wojo and Warriors" novel in  2016-17.

[connie]

I feel like MU is stuck in college basketball hell right now. The program is by no means awful, but I don't know where they go in the next two years.

With HE gone, is MU going to play a bad non league schedule again to round the team into some confidence? It's frustrating and fleeting to have a lottery pick on the roster and have the season go nowhere. MU doesn't get the caliber recruit of HE regularly, and his one year here will go down as non-descript.

Frustrating...MU is a great basketball school, it's very tough this time of year not seeing them in the field of 68.

I feel this.  My logic brain is in an epic struggle with my fan brain. I know we are young but I really don't want to hear that excuse.  I think we had years of a really great run and just don't appreciate how bad things in the program were.  I don't want to settle for the NIT, yet would have been thrilled if we got in.  I see flashes of real talent on this team but the pieces don't seem to play well together.  I guess I have to placate fan brain by placing hopes on the future.

[MUDPT]

1)  No, I don't think you have to wait until they are juniors and seniors, but more than just freshmen
2) That Cal team played 3 post season games in the NIT.  MU played 0.  That is a HUGE difference.  A post season team earning post season experience vs a team that earned none.
3)  Again, who played the minutes.  MU's youngsters played close to half the minutes.  Seton Hall's, not even close.

So are you saying that youngsters are sophomores or junior/seniors?  Seton Hall's minutes were played by freshmen and sophomores except for Gordon.  And I guess that means we have no excuses next year to miss the tournament.  Our minutes will come from 2 seniors, 2 juniors and 2 sophomores (possibly 4 sophomores and another senior).  And if experience is the only thing that matters, maybe we should stop recruiting players like HE.  After all, he will be gone after this year and won't get to be a sophomore or junior or senior, which is all that matters. 

I agree with JayBee on the experience with the turnovers. There were a lot of points this season, I thought #12 would have been a better PG option, except for the whole FT situation. 

As for Cal, we brought back a ton after the E8 run and fell flat on our face. What happened then?