NFC North/NFL Thread 2016-17

[wadesworld]

Can't say I haven't been saying Cutler (and Rose) sucks for years.  But I'm just a meathead Chicago sports blind hater and can't see greatness when it hits me in the head.

[RJax55]

Can't say I haven't been saying Cutler (and Rose) sucks for years.  But I'm just a meathead Chicago sports blind hater and can't see greatness when it hits me in the head.

Congratulations. So have most Bears and Bulls fans.

[wadesworld]

Congratulations. So have most Bears and Bulls fans.

Not the ones on MUScoop.

[MU B2002]

Can't say I haven't been saying Cutler (and Rose) sucks for years.  But I'm just a meathead Chicago sports blind hater and can't see greatness when it hits me in the head.

Wow, congrats on the hot take, so unique. 

Can you link me some quotes from scoop outlining the posts where the Bears fans have been preaching his "greatness"? 
 

Some of the Bears fans on Scoop that I can remember (to make it easier to find posts): MU B2002, MerrittsMustache, MUarmy81, jesmu84, etc

[jesmu84]

Can't say I haven't been saying Cutler (and Rose) sucks for years.  But I'm just a meathead Chicago sports blind hater and can't see greatness when it hits me in the head.

You don't make the Pro Bowl or become an MVP by "sucking".

Rose broke down due to injury.

Cutler was never "elite." Always an above-average QB only.

[MerrittsMustache]

I believe that a majority of Bears fans feel that Cutler is adequate. He's a slightly above average QB playing for a franchise that has struggled to find QBs even of that mediocre stature. He's frustrating to watch because his production doesn't seem to match his talent, but he also gives fans hope because it's obvious that the talent is there. In addition, he's an easy target because he can be a bit prickly, he has a huge contract and he genuinely dooooon't caaaaaaare about how he's publicly perceived.

Does he suck? Absolutely not. Is he in the upper echelon of NFL QBs? No, but taking his salary out of the equation, almost half the teams in the NFL would take him on gameday over their current QB.

[wadesworld]

Wow, congrats on the hot take, so unique. 

Can you link me some quotes from scoop outlining the posts where the Bears fans have been preaching his "greatness"? 
 

Some of the Bears fans on Scoop that I can remember (to make it easier to find posts): MU B2002, MerrittsMustache, MUarmy81, jesmu84, etc

Thank you.  How are we defining "hot take?"  If it is true is it really a "hot take" or is it just, well, an accurate take?  The Bulls rid themselves of the washed up player Rose was.  The Bears appear to finally be ridding themselves of the bad player Jay Cutler is.  As Chuck Woodson so astutely said, "The proof is in the pudding."

You really need links to prove that the Bears fans in here defended Cutler to their death every time I talked about how bad he is?  Heck, even this season, we had a poster sarcastically proclaiming, "Cutler sucks" in their week 1 loss to the Texans, a game in which Cutler went 16/29 for 216 yards, 1 TD, and 1 INT.  Go Jay!  You the man!

If you haven't seen any arguments between me and any number of Chicago sports fans around here that resulted in them telling me to "take my green and gold glasses off" when calling out Jay for what he is (a guy with good physical tools who values the football less than anybody I've ever watched play football) then you haven't been following the NFL threads for very long or very closely.

To some Jay may not suck.  Some may take Jay over a guy like Trevor Siemian.  That's great.  His numbers may look nice with some huge yards and a decent amount of touchdowns while other quarterbacks put up 80% of the yards and TDs.  What takes Jay from being a solid quarterback to a sucky quarterback is the absurd amounts of turnovers.  You don't win football games consistently when you lose the turnover battle.  With Jay under center, chances are your team is going to lose the turnover battle.  People can say that "half the league" would want Jay in place of what they have, but I'd say you're crazy if you really believe that.

Palmer, Ryan, Flacco, Newton, Prescott/Romo, Siemian, Rodgers, Luck, Bortles, Smith, Bradford, Brady, Brees, Manning, Carr, Wentz, Rothlisburger, Rivers, Wilson, Winston, Mariota are all quarterbacks I would undoubtedly take over Cutler.

Stafford and Cousins I'd put on par with Cutler.

That leaves Taylor, Kessler, Osweiler, Keenum, Tannehill, Fitzpatrick, and Gabbert as quarterbacks I'd take Jay over.

All in all, Jay sucks.

[Pakuni]

Does he suck? Absolutely not. Is he in the upper echelon of NFL QBs? No, but taking his salary out of the equation, almost half the teams in the NFL would take him on gameday over their current QB.

Nope
These 24 teams for sure wouldn't: New England, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Cincinnati, Indy, Tennessee, Oakland, San Diego, KC, NY Giants, Dallas, Washington, Philly, Minnesota, Green Bay, Detroit, New Orleans, Tampa Bay, Carolina, Atlanta, Arizona*, Seattle.
I'd also say Jacksonville is a toss up, and clearly they'd take Bortles if we're talking beyond one game/season. Heck, Cutler might not even get his job back from Hoyer.
He'd be the clear starter in Miami, Cleveland, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Houston, NY Jets and possibly Denver.

* Assuming Palmer is the starter.

[MerrittsMustache]

Nope
These 24 teams for sure wouldn't: New England, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Cincinnati, Indy, Tennessee, Oakland, San Diego, KC, NY Giants, Dallas, Washington, Philly, Minnesota, Green Bay, Detroit, New Orleans, Tampa Bay, Carolina, Atlanta, Arizona*, Seattle.
I'd also say Jacksonville is a toss up, and clearly they'd take Bortles if we're talking beyond one game/season. Heck, Cutler might not even get his job back from Hoyer.
He'd be the clear starter in Miami, Cleveland, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Houston, NY Jets and possibly Denver.

* Assuming Palmer is the starter.

I don't buy that all of those 24 teams "for sure" wouldn't take Cutler, but I'll admit that it's closer to one-third of the teams than almost half of the team as I had previously stated.

[wadesworld]

Nope
These 24 teams for sure wouldn't: New England, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Cincinnati, Indy, Tennessee, Oakland, San Diego, KC, NY Giants, Dallas, Washington, Philly, Minnesota, Green Bay, Detroit, New Orleans, Tampa Bay, Carolina, Atlanta, Arizona*, Seattle.
I'd also say Jacksonville is a toss up, and clearly they'd take Bortles if we're talking beyond one game/season. Heck, Cutler might not even get his job back from Hoyer.
He'd be the clear starter in Miami, Cleveland, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Houston, NY Jets and possibly Denver.

* Assuming Palmer is the starter.

Taylor is terrible.  Even I'd take Cutler over him.  Stafford and Cousins are more or less the same as Cutler.  And Bortles is definitely better than Cutler.

[MerrittsMustache]

Thank you.  How are we defining "hot take?"  If it is true is it really a "hot take" or is it just, well, an accurate take?  The Bulls rid themselves of the washed up player Rose was.  The Bears appear to finally be ridding themselves of the bad player Jay Cutler is.  As Chuck Woodson so astutely said, "The proof is in the pudding."

You really need links to prove that the Bears fans in here defended Cutler to their death every time I talked about how bad he is?  Heck, even this season, we had a poster sarcastically proclaiming, "Cutler sucks" in their week 1 loss to the Texans, a game in which Cutler went 16/29 for 216 yards, 1 TD, and 1 INT.  Go Jay!  You the man!

If you haven't seen any arguments between me and any number of Chicago sports fans around here that resulted in them telling me to "take my green and gold glasses off" when calling out Jay for what he is (a guy with good physical tools who values the football less than anybody I've ever watched play football) then you haven't been following the NFL threads for very long or very closely.

To some Jay may not suck.  Some may take Jay over a guy like Trevor Siemian.  That's great.  His numbers may look nice with some huge yards and a decent amount of touchdowns while other quarterbacks put up 80% of the yards and TDs.  What takes Jay from being a solid quarterback to a sucky quarterback is the absurd amounts of turnovers.  You don't win football games consistently when you lose the turnover battle.  With Jay under center, chances are your team is going to lose the turnover battle.  People can say that "half the league" would want Jay in place of what they have, but I'd say you're crazy if you really believe that.

Palmer, Ryan, Flacco, Newton, Prescott/Romo, Siemian, Rodgers, Luck, Bortles, Smith, Bradford, Brady, Brees, Manning, Carr, Wentz, Rothlisburger, Rivers, Wilson, Winston, Mariota are all quarterbacks I would undoubtedly take over Cutler.

Stafford and Cousins I'd put on par with Cutler.

That leaves Taylor, Kessler, Osweiler, Keenum, Tannehill, Fitzpatrick, and Gabbert as quarterbacks I'd take Jay over.

All in all, Jay sucks.

You acknowledged his question but still didn't answer it 

When you say "Cutler sucks" and someone says that he's "slightly above average" or "the best option available," that's not quite "defending him to their death." You seem to believe that it is, but it's just not.

The reason that you get into ridiculous debates with Bears fans is because you go SO off the rails with your illogical inferences when discussing the Bears (Cutler, in particular) or if someone says just about anything remotely disparaging about the Packers. Tone it down, read what people actually write and you'll be able to have an actual conversation about football.

[Spotcheck Billy]

So if the Bears go without Cutler next season, who is their likely QB? Draft one and throw him in the fire week 1? Hoyer while slowly bringing along a draft pick? Kaepernick?

[wadesworld]

You acknowledged his question but still didn't answer it 

When you say "Cutler sucks" and someone says that he's "slightly above average" or "the best option available," that's not quite "defending him to their death." You seem to believe that it is, but it's just not.

The reason that you get into ridiculous debates with Bears fans is because you go SO off the rails with your illogical inferences when discussing the Bears (Cutler, in particular) or if someone says just about anything remotely disparaging about the Packers. Tone it down, read what people actually write and you'll be able to have an actual conversation about football.

I just call it like I see it.  I guess maybe I could qualify that, in my opinion, Jay Cutler sucks relative to most other NFL starting quarterbacks.  Obviously, when compared to your average human being Jay Cutler is very good at football, and is way better at what he does than almost any other human being on the planet is at what he or she does.  But relative to the profession, in my opinion, he sucks.  And in my opinion, if you are a guy who can single handedly eliminate any chance a team may have to win a championship in that sport, you suck at that sport.  For example, while Carmelo Anthony is obviously not bad at playing the game of basketball, I personally would say that he sucks, because in my opinion you can't put enough around him with the salary cap to win.  He single handedly will take away your team's chances of winning a title because, while very talented, he plays hero ball no matter who you put around him and that won't win you a championship.  Much like Derrick Rose.

Maybe it's semantics, maybe it's valuing different things in athletes.  Not sure.  But I think Cutler sucks and I think Rose sucks.

[MerrittsMustache]

I just call it like I see it.  I guess maybe I could qualify that, in my opinion, Jay Cutler sucks relative to most other NFL starting quarterbacks.  Obviously, when compared to your average human being Jay Cutler is very good at football, and is way better at what he does than almost any other human being on the planet is at what he or she does.  But relative to the profession, in my opinion, he sucks.  And in my opinion, if you are a guy who can single handedly eliminate any chance a team may have to win a championship in that sport, you suck at that sport.  For example, while Carmelo Anthony is obviously not bad at playing the game of basketball, I personally would say that he sucks, because in my opinion you can't put enough around him with the salary cap to win.  He single handedly will take away your team's chances of winning a title because, while very talented, he plays hero ball no matter who you put around him and that won't win you a championship.  Much like Derrick Rose.

Maybe it's semantics, maybe it's valuing different things in athletes.  Not sure.  But I think Cutler sucks and I think Rose sucks.

My definition of what makes a player "suck" differs, but I at least now understand where you're coming from. I appreciate the level-headed response and explanation.

[MU B2002]

Thank you.  How are we defining "hot take?"  If it is true is it really a "hot take" or is it just, well, an accurate take?  The Bulls rid themselves of the washed up player Rose was.  The Bears appear to finally be ridding themselves of the bad player Jay Cutler is.  As Chuck Woodson so astutely said, "The proof is in the pudding."

You really need links to prove that the Bears fans in here defended Cutler to their death every time I talked about how bad he is?  Heck, even this season, we had a poster sarcastically proclaiming, "Cutler sucks" in their week 1 loss to the Texans, a game in which Cutler went 16/29 for 216 yards, 1 TD, and 1 INT.  Go Jay!  You the man!

If you haven't seen any arguments between me and any number of Chicago sports fans around here that resulted in them telling me to "take my green and gold glasses off" when calling out Jay for what he is (a guy with good physical tools who values the football less than anybody I've ever watched play football) then you haven't been following the NFL threads for very long or very closely.

.....

I asked for links for instances where Bears fans have praised his "greatness".  You can't provide links, because I am guessing there aren't many (if any) quotes stating that on this board.

I have seen all the arguments, and even participated in some.  I believe you and I had an argument about 4 years ago over a "half step".   

I like Culter, and always thought he caught excessive criticism because he wasn't warm and cuddly with the media.  Is he a great QB?  No.  Did he have flashes of above average skill followed by moments of pure stupidity? Absolutely. Will I be sad to see the Cutler era over? Probably not, as I am sick of arguing with my dad about him. Is he Jeff George 2.0?  Maybe.

I'm more concerned with the fact that despite having a need for a "QB of the future" the Bears have only drafted: David Fales, Nathan Enderle, and Dan LeFevour in the past 6 years.


And I don't really care about or have anything invested in Rose, other than a garbage future prop bet slip for Rose as MOP the year that Memphis let Mario bury a three to send the championship game into overtime. So no need to argue there.

[RJax55]

So if the Bears go without Cutler next season, who is their likely QB? Draft one and throw him in the fire week 1? Hoyer while slowly bringing along a draft pick? Kaepernick?

Resign Hoyer and draft a QB.

Hoyer is a good security blanket. Gives you an option at the position, so you don't have to throw your rookie QB to the wolves day one if the draft pick is not ready yet.

Pace is going to have a ton of heat on him heading into this off-season. Could be very likely that his future will be tied to the success or failure of the QB he drafts.

[Pakuni]

Taylor is terrible.  Even I'd take Cutler over him.  Stafford and Cousins are more or less the same as Cutler.  And Bortles is definitely better than Cutler.

Terrible?
Huh.

In games in which he's started, Taylor has completed 328 of 519 passes (62.6 percent) with 26 TDs to 10 INTs, a yards per attempt of 7.5 and a QB rating of 96.5 (Cutler's career QB rating is 85.9).
He was a top 10 QB in Pro Football Focus' rankings last year (Cutler was 15th).
In pretty much every significant statistical category he's done better than Cutler, and he's done it without as much skill position talent around him.
Heck, he's even got a winning record in Buffalo.
What's so terrible about him, exactly?

Stafford is way, way better than Cutler.

[JWags85]

Stafford is way, way better than Cutler.

Their QB ratings are virtually identical, Cutler has a better completion percentage, Stafford a slightly better TD/INT rating, and Cutler has won more playoff games.  Lets also see how Stafford's numbers change when he's not throwing prayers up to one of the best 5 WRs of all time.  They are basically the same kind of QB.

[MerrittsMustache]

Their QB ratings are virtually identical, Cutler has a better completion percentage, Stafford a slightly better TD/INT rating, and Cutler has won more playoff games.  Lets also see how Stafford's numbers change when he's not throwing prayers up to one of the best 5 WRs of all time.  They are basically the same kind of QB.

Stafford is a more likable Cuter.

[Pakuni]

Their QB ratings are virtually identical, Cutler has a better completion percentage, Stafford a slightly better TD/INT rating, and Cutler has won more playoff games.  Lets also see how Stafford's numbers change when he's not throwing prayers up to one of the best 5 WRs of all time.  They are basically the same kind of QB.

Stafford is playing the best ball of his career this year without Calvin Johnson. On pace for career highs in QB rating and completion percentage. I'm not arguing that he's better off without Johnson, but it seems to dispel the notion that he can't succeed without him (albeit a relatively small sample size).
We'll save the Calvin Johnson debate for another day. One of top 5 most physically gifted? You bet. a

Also, "won more playoff games" is a pretty meaningless stat for guys with 1 playoff win between them.

[MerrittsMustache]

Stafford is playing the best ball of his career this year without Calvin Johnson. On pace for career highs in QB rating and completion percentage. I'm not arguing that he's better off without Johnson, but it seems to dispel the notion that he can't succeed without him (albeit a relatively small sample size).
We'll save the Calvin Johnson debate for another day. One of top 5 most physically gifted? You bet. a

Also, "won more playoff games" is a pretty meaningless stat for guys with 1 playoff win between them.

Similar to how Cutler was better without Marshall last season...and also similar is how the Lions are on pace to win 6 games just like the Bears did last season 

[Pakuni]

Similar to how Cutler was better without Marshall last season...and also similar is how the Lions are on pace to win 6 games just like the Bears did last season 

Well ..
1. I never made the claim that Cutler couldn't play without Marshall. He did that with Stafford and Megatron.
2. Cutler still had Alshon Jeffrey and Matt Forte last year. Stafford has Marvin Jones (who is putting up numbers) and Theo Riddick.

[brandx]

So if the Bears go without Cutler next season, who is their likely QB? Draft one and throw him in the fire week 1? Hoyer while slowly bringing along a draft pick? Kaepernick?

Seems like a no-brainer.

Either Cutler

or

Hoyer, draft a QB in the 1st round to groom and use Cutler's salary for a top-flight tackle.

[DegenerateDish]

Hoyer will be your Bears starter next year, Bears will trade out of their top 7 pick, back into the mid first round and draft Kaaya. I wish I could put $ on this happening.

[MU B2002]

Hoyer will be your Bears starter next year, Bears will trade out of their top 7 pick, back into the mid first round and draft Kaaya. I wish I could put $ on this happening.

I will bet you a 6 pack. 


Bears always find a way to surprise you.