Dayton

[real chili 83]

Yep.  I think they had hoped ACC would call.  But 'kicking and screaming' is a fact. The deal almost didn't happen.  And while I know many of you hate Larry, don't underestimate his role.

That's one thing that the domer didn't screw up

That's as nice as I can be to a friggin' domer.   

[Goatherder]

Yep.  I think they had hoped ACC would call.  But 'kicking and screaming' is a fact. The deal almost didn't happen.  And while I know many of you hate Larry, don't underestimate his role.

No, Larry clearly had a major role in putting the new conference together.  There were references to that when it happened.  Clearly, he was close to the folks at Butler, which is why it is no surprise to me that the Butler folks came along to help finalize the deal. 

I think Xavier was another obvious choice.  I remember commenting some years ago when there was discussion about starting the "Catholic League" that Xavier and Cinci were pretty much a wash.  At the time, Huggy Bear was still at Cinci, so some people thought I was nuts.  After all, Cinci was #1 in the country a number of times and had made a Final Four.  But I think I was right.  A few years during that era, Xavier had a better team.  And in the long run, they were going to be competitive with Cinci.  Right now, they are better.  So the BE kept the market and just changed to a better fit. 

I did not know all the details about SLU, Dayton, and Creighton, but all of that makes perfect sense.

[GGGG]

Xavier was a more obvious choice than Butler.  Frankly Butler got real lucky that they got good when they did, because they were just a couple years removed from the Horizon League when the Big East called. 

[jsglow]

No, Larry clearly had a major role in putting the new conference together.  There were references to that when it happened.  Clearly, he was close to the folks at Butler, which is why it is no surprise to me that the Butler folks came along to help finalize the deal. 

I think Xavier was another obvious choice.  I remember commenting some years ago when there was discussion about starting the "Catholic League" that Xavier and Cinci were pretty much a wash.  At the time, Huggy Bear was still at Cinci, so some people thought I was nuts.  After all, Cinci was #1 in the country a number of times and had made a Final Four.  But I think I was right.  A few years during that era, Xavier had a better team.  And in the long run, they were going to be competitive with Cinci.  Right now, they are better.  So the BE kept the market and just changed to a better fit. 

I did not know all the details about SLU, Dayton, and Creighton, but all of that makes perfect sense.

The X thing was interesting in that there was absolutely no chatter about them in Lexington.  I take that to mean that it had already been resolved.

You are all correct about Butler.  They know (and knew at the time) how blessed they are.  According to folks present on the plane ride back, Larry deadpanned that he 'had a condition' and that 'they owed us one' referring to the Round of 32 game that would take place between our two schools 24 hours later.  Obviously said in jest, everyone including the Butler hierarchy  reportedly laughed.  Creighton and Butler will forever have our back in conference negotiations.

[Loose Cannon]

No one has yet addressed the elephant in the room, so I will.

When this league decides to expand, we need to do so for color diversity.

The Big East has proud traditions and a bright future, but until we address the diversity issue, we will always be a step behind. Seriously, every team but two use blue in their school colors. WTF is up with that?

Our short list needs to be Stanford, Colorado State, Tulane, Florida, Virginia Tech (no Buzz jokes, please; remember, we're not adding a coach, we're adding a jersey color), Miami (FL) and Evansville.

OK...Roy G Biv

[Eldon]

Xavier was a more obvious choice than Butler.  Frankly Butler got real lucky that they got good when they did, because they were just a couple years removed from the Horizon League when the Big East called.

As an avid bball fan surely you are aware of Butler's success pre-FF runs.  You don't think that Butler makes the C7/BE league without those FF runs? 

Personally, I've long been a Butler fan, even before the FF runs.  Certainly the FF runs solidified their place, but I think that Butler is at least in the discussions of an addition, even w/o the FF runs.

[GGGG]

As an avid bball fan surely you are aware of Butler's success pre-FF runs.  You don't think that Butler makes the C7/BE league without those FF runs? 

Personally, I've long been a Butler fan, even before the FF runs.  Certainly the FF runs solidified their place, but I think that Butler is at least in the discussions of an addition, even w/o the FF runs.

Before their FF runs, they made the S16 only three times in their history.  1962, 2003 and 2007. 

So I agree that they would have been "in the discussion," but they wouldn't have been the slam dunk they ended up becoming.  I guess in the end they likely get the nod because the other alternatives weren't any better.

[Pakuni]

Before their FF runs, they made the S16 only three times in their history.  1962, 2003 and 2007. 

Seems a pretty arbitrary measure of whether or not Butler belonged.
The reality is that since the late 90s, they've been as good (or better) of a program than most of the C7. In the 15 seasons prior to the realignment, they made 10 NCAA appearances, won at least one game in seven of them, went to four S16s and two Final Fours. They're a private school in the eastern half of the country, with an excellent academic reputation, a strong fan following and location in an urban market.
They were an easy pick, IMO.

[GGGG]

Seems a pretty arbitrary measure of whether or not Butler belonged.
The reality is that since the late 90s, they've been as good (or better) of a program than most of the C7. In the 15 seasons prior to the realignment, they made 10 NCAA appearances, won at least one game in seven of them, went to four S16s and two Final Fours. They're a private school in the eastern half of the country, with an excellent academic reputation, a strong fan following and location in an urban market.
They were an easy pick, IMO.

Well you might be right.  But since most of those appearances were from a relatively weak conference (MCC / Horizon), I am not sure they would be given the same type of weight as a school that conference members were more familiar with.

When the Great Midwest formed, Butler was never in the discussions.  The Atlantic 10 didn't invite Butler until 2012.  It didn't invite them when they invited Dayton, Xavier, Fordham and LaSalle in the mid 90s.  It didn't invite them when they added St. Louis and Charlotte in 2005. 

Part of me thinks that since schools like MU and DePaul had been affiliated in a conference with schools like Dayton and St. Louis, that those schools would have gotten more of a look.  I think those FF runs made a big impact.

[Pakuni]

Well you might be right.  But since most of those appearances were from a relatively weak conference (MCC / Horizon), I am not sure they would be given the same type of weight as a school that conference members were more familiar with.

This would be a fair criticism if Butler didn't win at least one game in the majority of their tourney appearances, usually over higher-seeded, major conference opponents.  Maybe once or twice you could chalk it up as a fluke. But seven times out of 10?

When the Great Midwest formed, Butler was never in the discussions.  The Atlantic 10 didn't invite Butler until 2012.  It didn't invite them when they invited Dayton, Xavier, Fordham and LaSalle in the mid 90s.  It didn't invite them when they added St. Louis and Charlotte in 2005. 

Not sure what the point is. Great Midwest was formed in 1991 under very different circumstances, and long before Butler became the program it is today. Same with the '95 A-10 expansion. the 2005. The A-10 expansion was simply them adding a couple of teams from the imploding C-USA.
If your point is that in the mid to early 90s, Butler wouldn't have fit the BE profile, then we agree. It's also a red herring. The Nnew BE wasn't formed in 1995. It was 2013, and Butler was a different program than it was two decades earlier.

I think those FF runs made a big impact.

Obviously. Nobody is saying otherwise.
What I'm disputing is the claim that Butler "got real lucky" by getting hot for two seasons at just the time. They'd been a solid, credible program - at least as credible as half the other BE members - even before the Final Four seasons. And, as I said, other factors - location, private, academics - fell in their favor as well.

[Goatherder]

Barry Collier took over at Butler the second year Marquette was in the MCC.  After Marquette and SLU left and the Great Midwest was formed, Xavier was the class of the conference.  (To be more accurate, they probably were before then.  They sent several players to the NBA during that period.) But Xavier left at the first opportunity.  That is when Butler started dominating the league, which they did for a long time under a string of coaches.  They were nationally ranked much of the time, and as someone pointed out, they knocked off some big names in the NCAA.  One of the things we used to hear from UWM fans as to why they should get a home game was that big name teams were willing to play at Butler.  Yeah, but you're not Butler.  So I think Butler would have been in the mix.  But back to back finals appearances pretty much locked it up.  How could you pass up a team like that with that kind of consistent success?  And clearly there were some discussions about how they intended to run their program in the future. 

What surprises me is that SLU was not seen as good enough.  They had been in three different conferences with Marquette, two with DePaul, and we just coming off the Majerus era, when they were pretty good.  Apparently not good enough. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

What surprises me is that SLU was not seen as good enough.  They had been in three different conferences with Marquette, two with DePaul, and we just coming off the Majerus era, when they were pretty good.  Apparently not good enough.

....outside of the last two years with Majerus and the first year of the stiff who won with a bunch of majerus' players what had slu done? What has slu ever done? Anyone looking at that 12-13 slu roster would have seen that they started five seniors and their top bench player was a senior. Their new coach wasn't good enough to sniff Majerus' jock strap and couldn't recruit a d1 caliber player if his life depended on it. They were going nowhere fast.

SLU is a meh team. The BEast will never add a meh team. Adding meh teams is what caused the C7 to split. They could live with football but not if it meant playing Tulane and ECU every season.

Dayton is also a meh team. That is why they won't be added. However, they have been decent for a longer stretch than I would have expected. Sustain this for seven or eight more years with a deep tourney run or two and maybe they can think about sitting at the big kids table.

Either you get a big name like UConn, Memphis, Notre Dame, Gonzaga, or BYU or you don't expand. Simple as that.

[Herman Cain]

....outside of the last two years with Majerus and the first year of the stiff who won with a bunch of majerus' players what had slu done? What has slu ever done? Anyone looking at that 12-13 slu roster would have seen that they started five seniors and their top bench player was a senior. Their new coach wasn't good enough to sniff Majerus' jock strap and couldn't recruit a d1 caliber player if his life depended on it. They were going nowhere fast.

SLU is a meh team. The BEast will never add a meh team. Adding meh teams is what caused the C7 to split. They could live with football but not if it meant playing Tulane and ECU every season.

Dayton is also a meh team. That is why they won't be added. However, they have been decent for a longer stretch than I would have expected. Sustain this for seven or eight more years with a deep tourney run or two and maybe they can think about sitting at the big kids table.

Either you get a big name like UConn, Memphis, Notre Dame, Gonzaga, or BYU or you don't expand. Simple as that.

I say no expansion necessary. U Conn actively wants to be in a Power 5 so we don't want them either because the act of them leaving debases us. Gonzage GYU too far away for the minor sports. Memphis has Power 5 aspirations at some point plus they are a lousy school. Obviously Notre Dame is perfect  and we could probably still do a double round robin with 11 teams.  bottom line we have a great conference as it and we are on an up trend.

When you update your recruit rankings analysis it will be interesting to see how the league is doing overall in that regard. My sense is everyone is picking up some real talent.

When the TV contract is up for renewal there will several strong bidders for the Big East conference. Fox, ESPN, CBS Sports  and NBC Sports. I doubt if we get the money we got from Fox as that was a special circumstance, but I think we will still get an attractive deal as we will offer a readily identifiable brand.

[Benny B]

Frankly Butler Marquette got real lucky that they got good when they did, because they were just a couple years removed decade away from the Horizon League when the Big East called.

Those who live in glass houses, yada yada yada.

[GGGG]

Those who live in glass houses, yada yada yada.

Hey let's compare apples and oranges.

[Benny B]

Hey let's compare apples and oranges.

More like Fuji and Gala.

So you believe that MU's invitation to the Big East was in no way impacted by MU's FF run just six months earlier?

[GGGG]

More like Fuji and Gala.

So you believe that MU's invitation to the Big East was in no way impacted by MU's FF run just six months earlier?

No.  I think the decision to add DePaul and Marquette had already been made by then.