Seton Hall thoughts

[Blackhat]

There is a reason guys get back better after a made shot.. because the other team has to inbound the ball.

Some guys are occasionally taking time off on D though.

[Windyplayer]

Agreed.  Cheatham got smoked all game on the defensive end and so did Sandy.  Sandy was atrocious on the offensive end as well.  I can remember twice where he brought his defender over to the person with the ball and we had a turnover.

Watching Cohen try a mistimed Euro step on that fast break was agonizing.

[Lennys Tap]

We've played 6 "non cupcakes". One is borderline top 25 (Iowa), the other 5 are unranked. We are 3-3 in those games. Our wins were all "coin flips" (by one, two and three points in OT). Our losses (all at home) include two of the worst routs in my 50 year viewing history. We're young and we'll improve, but right now at least 5 Big East teams look to be considerably better than us. We're big but slow to the ball and not particularly athletic. We don't have a point guard (Goose was right, Carter is nowhere near ready to start at this level). If Henry stays I think we're an NCAA team next year but I'm (sadly) coming to Tower's conclusion that this year the NIT is our upside.
[/pre]

[Mutaman]

I don't have the kind of memory that lets me instantly recall who said what on Scoop, but there have been a few folks who regularly say silly stuff like, "Henry is nowhere near ready for the NBA. He'll be here four years."

Similarly, there have been some folks on here claiming that Luke can be an NBA player. Again, I'm not knocking Luke. I agree with those who say he is the best pure center we've had here in many years, that he has improved and that he can continue to do so. But he will not be an NBAer, no how, no way.

I will submit that the folks who say the above stuff about Henry and about Luke are in the minority. I wasn't trying to paint these as majority opinions, so if that is how it came across I apologize.

There's this thing here called a search gizmo. If you type in "Luke" and or "Fisher" and  'NBA", the only thing that comes up is your post from yesterday.

[brewcity77]

There's this thing here called a search gizmo. If you type in "Luke" and or "Fisher" and  'NBA", the only thing that comes up is your post from yesterday.

Is that because you spelled Fisher wrong?

[ChicosBailBonds]

They witnessed Henry struggle some, too, but Henry still grabbed 14 rebounds, had a couple of NBA-quality assists, handled the ball well and showed nice range (even if the shot didn't go in). Those who think NBA scouts watched Henry tonight and said, "No effen way!" don't know anything about what scouts look for. I doubt Henry's stock dropped even a fraction tonight.

I was responding to the quote above form '82.
My point was HE's stat line will have little effect on his draft status.  As 82 said, HE did not shoot the ball well last night.  Will have zero effect on his draft status.

Fair enough.

I don't think anyone said or thinks NBA scouts would do that.  They will look at many of his games for a large sample of work.

My thing was more about stock of players, which can drop or rise.   My biggest concern with HE at the pro level is whether he has the athleticism.  He can offset that by having a great outside shot, which he doesn't have.  We'll see how it goes, but I'm still in the camp of two years.

[We R Final Four]

I agree--however one the NBA's top 8 teams will come calling--regardless of his limited athleticism and lack of deep ball shooting. It's just the way it is today.
Potential>stats.

[MerrittsMustache]

I agree--however one the NBA's top 8 teams will come calling--regardless of his limited athleticism and lack of deep ball shooting. It's just the way it is today.
Potential>stats.

Agree. Besides...6'10" with potential >>>> Stats

[Atticus]

I agree--however one the NBA's top 8 teams will come calling--regardless of his limited athleticism and lack of deep ball shooting. It's just the way it is today.
Potential>stats.

HE reminds me of Brad Miller at Purdue. Except HE as a freshman is doing what Miller did as a junior.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I agree--however one the NBA's top 8 teams will come calling--regardless of his limited athleticism and lack of deep ball shooting. It's just the way it is today.
Potential>stats.

All it takes is one....unless you are Vander Blue and no one comes calling draft day.

[mu-rara]

I agree--however one the NBA's top 8 teams will come calling--regardless of his limited athleticism and lack of deep ball shooting. It's just the way it is today.
Potential>stats.

The only reason HE stays is because he likes college (for 1 more year).  The NBA will draft him if he declares.  A guy can hope because we would be awesome next year if he stays.

[Silkk the Shaka]

There is a reason guys get back better after a made shot.. because the other team has to inbound the ball.

Some guys are occasionally taking time off on D though.

Agreed, which is why we were a better offensive AND defensive team with Davante in the game, even though he was an average to below average individual defender. Davante got buckets. The other team then had to play against a set defense. People made way too big of a deal about Davante's defensive limitations. We were a better overall team with him in the game period.

Which is why on the flip side, for however good a guy like Derrick was on his own man on D, it wore our team defense down to constantly play off of missed shots. Eventually you break and teams start ripping off unanswered runs. There was a bit of that dynamic last night due to all the empty possessions on our own end.

We start canning open shots, the D will follow, and not just because guys don't want to defend if they're having an off night shooting.

/tangent

[brewcity77]

Agreed, which is why we were a better offensive AND defensive team with Davante in the game, even though he was an average to below average individual defender. Davante got buckets. The other team then had to play against a set defense. People made way too big of a deal about Davante's defensive limitations. We were a better overall team with him in the game period.

Which is why on the flip side, for however good a guy like Derrick was on his own man on D, it wore our team defense down to constantly play off of missed shots. Eventually you break and teams start ripping off unanswered runs. There was a bit of that dynamic last night due to all the empty possessions on our own end.

We start canning open shots, the D will follow, and not just because guys don't want to defend if they're having an off night shooting.

/tangent

There's definitely a benefit to making shots. I won't dispute that. But especially early on, Davante's defense was a huge liability, and even though he could make shots, you have to remember in his first three years, he never took more than 22.3% of the shots when he was on the floor. So sure, his made shots helped, but the rest of the team took about 80% of the shots. When they missed, Davante's defense hurt.

Conversely, it's hard to blame Derrick too much for missing shots when he had the lowest percentage of shots taken on the team in all four of his years here. I'm not saying his offensive limitations couldn't have had impacts that went beyond just his shooting, but when you take the fewest shots of any guy on the floor, more often than not you won't be the one who missed the shot that prevented the defense from getting set.

Sorry...don't mean to digress this topic, but I can't agree that we were better defensively with Davante in and Derrick out. I understand where you're coming from, and there's benefits to made baskets beyond points, but there are limits to that, especially when you consider usage rates.

Regardless...we need to make shots. Those threes last night killed us, not only because we missed almost all of them, but because Seton Hall got 90% of the rebounds on our misses. The only offensive board we got on a three was Wally's easy putback when Henry came up horribly short. That's another reason I hate seeing Henry take threes. Not only is it not a strength of his game, but it takes one of our best chances at getting the offensive rebound away from the hoop. I hate of the idea of Wojo stifling his game, but unless it's a wide-open look in the flow of the offense, he shouldn't be taking threes. And even then, there's probably a better option, unless it's in the last 5 seconds of the shot clock.

[loid walden]

I like Wojo, so far, but I think part of this is on him for not adjusting.  The on-the-street definition of  insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. The repeated fruitless charges to the net  where like the charge of the light brigade.  Sad

[#UnleashSean]

When i see teams like seton hall I really start to miss that 6'9 300 pound wrecking ball we had.

[Lennys Tap]

All it takes is one....unless you are Vander Blue and no one comes calling draft day.

Death and taxes - you never tire of insulting our players from our most successful era since Al.

0n another topic - it's unseemly and classless to have a signature that's a personal attack on another poster. Take it down.

[MU82]

All it takes is one....unless you are Vander Blue and no one comes calling draft day.

You and I have had many agreements and disagreements (probably more of the latter) but I've always thought you were a pretty bright guy.

If you really think that if Henry went pro after this season and that he'd have to cross his fingers and pray and recite a cliche like "all it takes is one" ... well ... I'm not so sure about your brightness.

If you are comparing Ellenson's draft prospects to those of Blue, whom everybody not named Blue knew were lousy ... well ... your intelligence comes into question again.

Because I don't think you're stupid, I'll just chalk it up as a typically misguided, typically douchebaggy way to take yet another cheap shot at the guy who carried Marquette to the Elite Eight.

In which case you're merely guilty of capital douchebaggery.

There ... does that cover all the possibilities?

[ChicosBailBonds]

A lot of folks here thought Kevin Willard should or would be fired last year (Scoopers historically not good at predicting when coaches get fired I might add).

Folks still thinking this way?

[Atticus]

A lot of folks here thought Kevin Willard should or would be fired last year (Scoopers historically not good at predicting when coaches get fired I might add).

Folks still thinking this way?

Yup. Whitehead had offers from UL, UK, SU, UConn. They all pulled their offers. Remind me: why did Whitehead end up at SHU?

Besides, willards body of work to date is not very impressive.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You and I have had many agreements and disagreements (probably more of the latter) but I've always thought you were a pretty bright guy.

If you really think that if Henry went pro after this season and that he'd have to cross his fingers and pray and recite a cliche like "all it takes is one" ... well ... I'm not so sure about your brightness.

If you are comparing Ellenson's draft prospects to those of Blue, whom everybody not named Blue knew were lousy ... well ... your intelligence comes into question again.

Because I don't think you're stupid, I'll just chalk it up as a typically misguided, typically douchebaggy way to take yet another cheap shot at the guy who carried Marquette to the Elite Eight.

In which case you're merely guilty of capital douchebaggery.

There ... does that cover all the possibilities?

Let me lay it out clearly as apparently I didn't.

All it takes is one is in reference to all it takes is one NBA team to draft someone and suddenly they are a lottery pick or a 1st rounder.  It could mean 30 other teams have no desire to do so, but all it takes is one.  Now, that being said, in my judgment he isn't going in the top 8, which I think was your comment or someone's (I'd have to look it up), but all it takes is one team to do it and it is so.   I have a hard time seeing him as top 14, which I believe is the cut off for a lottery pick.  But again, all it takes is one.  Whether he comes out this year or not, I don't know.  Many reasons to do so, especially if you are going to get guaranteed money.  Now, if another year would mean improving his outside game considerably, making him more versatile, improving his athleticism and quickness....he might consider doing so.   We'll all find out.

Some players were told that "one is all it takes" (which is true), but they actually believed one would do it...and they leave early despite just about anyone with a brain saying don't....Vander Blue.  Just stating the facts.  If someone wants to leave early and it makes sense, by all means do it and I support it.  When someone is a fool and leaves early, well you're not going to get any attaboys from me.  Douchbaggery...fine by me....still makes it 100% accurate that he was an idiot for leaving early.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Yup. Whitehead had offers from UL, UK, SU, UConn. They all pulled their offers. Remind me: why did Whitehead end up at SHU?

Besides, willards body of work to date is not very impressive.

Whitehead is a nice player, but they have several really nice players on their team.  If I recall, Whitehead's coach is on the staff, but I don't recall if that was him or another recruit.

Appreciate the response.

I'll stick to my beliefs that Scoopers firing predictions are down right awful.

[Atticus]

Whitehead is a nice player, but they have several really nice players on their team.  If I recall, Whitehead's coach is on the staff, but I don't recall if that was him or another recruit.

Appreciate the response.

I'll stick to my beliefs that Scoopers firing predictions are down right awful.

Yes,Willard hired Whitehead's coach.

http://mweb.cbssports.com/ncaab/eye-on-college-basketball/23734303/seton-hall-did-a-package-deal-to-get-isaiah-whitehead-and-its-smart

Willard went 18-36 through his first 3 BE seasons. At a better program with loftier expectations he understandably could have been fired. A win on the road this year against MU doesnt change much about Willard as a coach, IMO.

[Silkk the Shaka]

There's definitely a benefit to making shots. I won't dispute that. But especially early on, Davante's defense was a huge liability, and even though he could make shots, you have to remember in his first three years, he never took more than 22.3% of the shots when he was on the floor. So sure, his made shots helped, but the rest of the team took about 80% of the shots. When they missed, Davante's defense hurt.

Conversely, it's hard to blame Derrick too much for missing shots when he had the lowest percentage of shots taken on the team in all four of his years here. I'm not saying his offensive limitations couldn't have had impacts that went beyond just his shooting, but when you take the fewest shots of any guy on the floor, more often than not you won't be the one who missed the shot that prevented the defense from getting set.

Sorry...don't mean to digress this topic, but I can't agree that we were better defensively with Davante in and Derrick out. I understand where you're coming from, and there's benefits to made baskets beyond points, but there are limits to that, especially when you consider usage rates.

Regardless...we need to make shots. Those threes last night killed us, not only because we missed almost all of them, but because Seton Hall got 90% of the rebounds on our misses. The only offensive board we got on a three was Wally's easy putback when Henry came up horribly short. That's another reason I hate seeing Henry take threes. Not only is it not a strength of his game, but it takes one of our best chances at getting the offensive rebound away from the hoop. I hate of the idea of Wojo stifling his game, but unless it's a wide-open look in the flow of the offense, he shouldn't be taking threes. And even then, there's probably a better option, unless it's in the last 5 seconds of the shot clock.

1.) I was referring to Davante as an upperclassman, not a frosh.

2.) Derrick'so low usage rate was a big part of the problem offensively, so usage rate differential is a moot point. Basketball is not baseball, where a hitter is in more of a vacuum vs. the rest of his teammates offensively.

3.) I wasn't comparing the two, nor did I say we were better on defense with Davante in while Derrick was out. I meant if you swapped Davante for a guy that was better on D but worse on O, we would have been worse on defense and vice versa with Derrick. Sorry for any confusion.

[brewcity77]

1.) I was referring to Davante as an upperclassman, not a frosh.

2.) Derrick'so low usage rate was a big part of the problem offensively, so usage rate differential is a moot point. Basketball is not baseball, where a hitter is in more of a vacuum vs. the rest of his teammates offensively.

3.) I wasn't comparing the two, nor did I say we were better on defense with Davante in while Derrick was out. I meant if you swapped Davante for a guy that was better on D but worse on O, we would have been worse on defense and vice versa with Derrick. Sorry for any confusion.

Confusion from my end as well...I understood your comparisons but poorly worded the Davante/Derrick thing, which probably should have had a semicolon in there.

1) As a senior, Otule had a higher FG% and eFG% than Gardner and was a much better defender. Gardner's usage rate may have made us a better overall team, but it's not like Otule was missing all the time and allowing breakouts because of it. We were unquestionably a better defensive team with Otule in the lineup.

2) The problem was Derrick had no competition. As a junior, the only other person to take his minutes was Dawson, who was better from the line and three, but had a lower eFG% and really wasn't much more of an offensive threat. As a senior, we had no like-for-like player to take his minutes. Only Carlino, and they both played. The biggest problem was Buzz's inability to recruit any other point guards.

3) Gotcha...confusion on both ends All things being equal, I agree that you're better off defending after a made basket. I just don't think those two specific examples work well when you consider the rest of the roster. My guess is this is one where we'll have to agree to disagree

[MU82]

Let me lay it out clearly as apparently I didn't.

All it takes is one is in reference to all it takes is one NBA team to draft someone and suddenly they are a lottery pick or a 1st rounder.  It could mean 30 other teams have no desire to do so, but all it takes is one.  Now, that being said, in my judgment he isn't going in the top 8, which I think was your comment or someone's (I'd have to look it up), but all it takes is one team to do it and it is so.   I have a hard time seeing him as top 14, which I believe is the cut off for a lottery pick.  But again, all it takes is one.  Whether he comes out this year or not, I don't know.  Many reasons to do so, especially if you are going to get guaranteed money.  Now, if another year would mean improving his outside game considerably, making him more versatile, improving his athleticism and quickness....he might consider doing so.   We'll all find out.

Some players were told that "one is all it takes" (which is true), but they actually believed one would do it...and they leave early despite just about anyone with a brain saying don't....Vander Blue.  Just stating the facts.  If someone wants to leave early and it makes sense, by all means do it and I support it.  When someone is a fool and leaves early, well you're not going to get any attaboys from me.  Douchbaggery...fine by me....still makes it 100% accurate that he was an idiot for leaving early.

You compared Ellenson to Blue. Were there ever 25 scouts out to see Blue? Did several draft prognosticators ever predict Blue would be a top-10 pick? Blue was told to stay in school because he wouldn't be drafted; he apparently applied the "all it takes is one" mantra. Henry doesn't need that mantra on potential alone.

I know, I know ... you'll say you never really compared Henry to Vander. Whatevs. You just have "a way about you," Chicos. You love to push that envelope and invite arguments rather than discussions.

As for Henry ... like you, I have a gut feeling he stays for 2 years, although I will admit that my feeling was stronger a month ago. He would have to like the MU experience and like playing with his brother an awful lot to pass up the big guarantee.

BTW, I never said he was going top 8. I have no idea where he's going, though the draft prognosticators who have a pretty good record in these things believe he'll be a lottery pick, and they'd know more than I would.

They wouldn't know more than you, of course. I mean, who does? Sports, politics, investing, whatever ... who knows more than Chicos?