Making a murder

[rocket surgeon]

Funniest thing I have seen in a long time:


<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/y_vDQjms_V4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/y_vDQjms_V4</a>

excellant!  man they could make a whole series with this one

[keefe]

good one!!  now play it backwards

I played it backwards on a first pressing copy of Abbey Road and it says, "Avery is f@cked...Avery is f@cked..."

[MU82]

I am extremely late to this party, but Mrs. 82 and I finally finished watching the series and I didn't want to read anything here until we finished.

I found it extremely interesting. It also had more humor than I thought it would have -- much of it unintended. Hell, I kept cracking up every time either of Steven's parents spoke.

I'm the opposite of a conspiracy theorist in that I routinely make fun of conspiracy theorists. I am a voice-of-reason kind of guy who always looks for logical explanations to things.

I'm not going to go point by point with all that's been discussed so far ... and I'm sure everybody's grateful for that. But I will say that I was left with a TON of reasonable doubt.

I read the "rebuttals" to the first five episodes and found them quite shallow and unconvincing -- so much so that I decided not to waste more time by reading the next five. I was more intrigued by all the stuff the filmmakers left out, so I appreciate those links.

Quickly ...

I believe Avery is a scumbag and Brandon is a dolt. I believe Lenk and Colburn (and perhaps a few others from that department) are as dirty as hell. I believe that Brandon's PD should have gone to jail for impersonating an attorney and that Brandon should have received a new trial strictly because of the PD's incompetence and malfeasance. Oh, and I'm glad Kratz was found to have been a total perv, because he obviously is a douchebag.

I am flummoxed that despite officials believing Brandon's story of a horrific, bloody scene, they were not able to find a single drop of blood in that bedroom. But lo and behold, the key materialized out of nowhere. Days later. Found, of course, by Lenk. Who wasn't even supposed to have been there.

There were a bazillion other "coincidences," too. And several other potential suspects who should have at least have been considered.

Based on everything I know -- from the documentary, from the rebuttals, from the extra information the doc didn't show, from the stuff discussed here and in other threads I've checked out, from interviews I've read of impartial lawyers not connected to the case ... I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been able to return a guilty verdict against Steven and definitely not against Brandon.

And then there's my personal bias. I have two friends who were wrongly convicted of crimes. (Two separate cases years apart.) One was exonerated fairly quickly but the other served nearly two years in jail before DNA evidence cleared him. I guess he was lucky it wasn't 18 years. The cops and DA were convinced he was guilty and didn't even look for the real rapist, who never has been caught and probably has raped again. So I know all too well that this crap happens.

I guess I'm just a dopey conspiracy theorist now, too.

[wadesworld]

I am extremely late to this party, but Mrs. 82 and I finally finished watching the series and I didn't want to read anything here until we finished.

I found it extremely interesting. It also had more humor than I thought it would have -- much of it unintended. Hell, I kept cracking up every time either of Steven's parents spoke.

I'm the opposite of a conspiracy theorist in that I routinely make fun of conspiracy theorists. I am a voice-of-reason kind of guy who always looks for logical explanations to things.

I'm not going to go point by point with all that's been discussed so far ... and I'm sure everybody's grateful for that. But I will say that I was left with a TON of reasonable doubt.

I read the "rebuttals" to the first five episodes and found them quite shallow and unconvincing -- so much so that I decided not to waste more time by reading the next five. I was more intrigued by all the stuff the filmmakers left out, so I appreciate those links.

Quickly ...

I believe Avery is a scumbag and Brandon is a dolt. I believe Lenk and Colburn (and perhaps a few others from that department) are as dirty as hell. I believe that Brandon's PD should have gone to jail for impersonating an attorney and that Brandon should have received a new trial strictly because of the PD's incompetence and malfeasance. Oh, and I'm glad Kratz was found to have been a total perv, because he obviously is a douchebag.

I am flummoxed that despite officials believing Brandon's story of a horrific, bloody scene, they were not able to find a single drop of blood in that bedroom. But lo and behold, the key materialized out of nowhere. Days later. Found, of course, by Lenk. Who wasn't even supposed to have been there.

There were a bazillion other "coincidences," too. And several other potential suspects who should have at least have been considered.

Based on everything I know -- from the documentary, from the rebuttals, from the extra information the doc didn't show, from the stuff discussed here and in other threads I've checked out, from interviews I've read of impartial lawyers not connected to the case ... I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been able to return a guilty verdict against Steven and definitely not against Brandon.

And then there's my personal bias. I have two friends who were wrongly convicted of crimes. (Two separate cases years apart.) One was exonerated fairly quickly but the other served nearly two years in jail before DNA evidence cleared him. I guess he was lucky it wasn't 18 years. The cops and DA were convinced he was guilty and didn't even look for the real rapist, who never has been caught and probably has raped again. So I know all too well that this crap happens.

I guess I'm just a dopey conspiracy theorist now, too.

I guess I just find it hard to say whether or not I'd be able to come to a guilty verdict without having actually sat in the weeks long trial hearing all of the evidence being presented, not just some facts to show there is doubt and other facts to show that the doubt was just there because other facts were left out, etc. I think between the "facts" we heard from the biased documentary and the "facts" we heard by the biased opposition to the documentaries we probably heard about 10% of what was presented in the trial.

There were certainly things that were mishandled in the investigation but I think you'd need to listen to the 4 hour confession of Dassey's to even consider whether or not he may be innocent (which I started to do, and after about 20 minutes stopped because it was just plain boring). The more I read about the confession the more I am convinced that while there wasn't a brutal murder in the trailer, Avery murdered Halbach and Dassey at the very least helped with the "clean up."

[MU82]

I guess I just find it hard to say whether or not I'd be able to come to a guilty verdict without having actually sat in the weeks long trial hearing all of the evidence being presented, not just some facts to show there is doubt and other facts to show that the doubt was just there because other facts were left out, etc. I think between the "facts" we heard from the biased documentary and the "facts" we heard by the biased opposition to the documentaries we probably heard about 10% of what was presented in the trial.

Agreed.

That's why I said:

"Based on everything I know ... I'm pretty sure ... "

Because I'm not totally sure. And I realize we don't know everything.

It was a great idea for a documentary, and then the murder was a stroke of "luck" for the filmmakers. Even if one acknowledges they had an agenda, they still did a great job of making it compelling.

To make a great doc, a filmmaker needs some luck when it comes to the storyline. Hoop Dreams had that, with so many amazing twists and turns.

[Benny B]

I found it extremely interesting. It also had more humor than I thought it would have -- much of it unintended. Hell, I kept cracking up every time either of Steven's parents spoke.

Keep in mind, this isn't some fabricated "reality show" like Duck Dynasty... these are real people being filmed in a real setting, i.e. they're not putting on a show for the comedic enjoyment of the audience.  Probably not as funny when you consider that you don't get to pick your parents, and this could have been the family you were born into... which, incidentally, I think parallels the reason behind the popularity of the series: there's a very fine line between what one can and cannot control in his/her life, and despite a society based on the fundamentals of human rights and fairness, those with a greater power can not only deliver you the shaft - whether you deserve it or not - but in a manner such that your efforts to resist become an exercise in futility.

[mu03eng]

Keep in mind, this isn't some fabricated "reality show" like Duck Dynasty... these are real people being filmed in a real setting, i.e. they're not putting on a show for the comedic enjoyment of the audience.  Probably not as funny when you consider that you don't get to pick your parents, and this could have been the family you were born into... which, incidentally, I think parallels the reason behind the popularity of the series: there's a very fine line between what one can and cannot control in his/her life, and despite a society based on the fundamentals of human rights and fairness, those with a greater power can not only deliver you the shaft - whether you deserve it or not - but in a manner such that your efforts to resist become an exercise in futility.

I think this is an excellent point and what I find most intriguing about the documentary(and something that seems totally lost in the he's a monster/he's totally innocent nonsense) is the meta commentary the doc invokes on two topics:
-Lack of control around the circumstances that one gets at birth
-How easy it is for those with power to use that power in ways that you can't fundamentally fight regardless of the luckiness/unluckiness of your birth.

There is no question that there was shady stuff going on with the powers that be, as an ordinary citizen how do you fight against that? Add in the circumstances of your birth and it's nearly impossible. The justice system is suppose to be blind but I think we see time and time again that it is not whether it's Steven Avery or some poor kid on the city streets of Chicago.

[Benny B]

The justice system is suppose to be blind but I think we see time and time again that it is not whether it's Steven Avery or some poor kid on the city streets of Chicago.

Exactly.  And while I believe it was alluded to earlier in this thread, one cannot back the cause of Black Lives Matter yet disregard the cause of Steven Avery (or vice versa).  They are completely analogous to one another.... well, almost analogous if you happen to be a racist bigot or one of those social justice posers.

[MU82]

Keep in mind, this isn't some fabricated "reality show" like Duck Dynasty... these are real people being filmed in a real setting, i.e. they're not putting on a show for the comedic enjoyment of the audience.  Probably not as funny when you consider that you don't get to pick your parents, and this could have been the family you were born into... which, incidentally, I think parallels the reason behind the popularity of the series: there's a very fine line between what one can and cannot control in his/her life, and despite a society based on the fundamentals of human rights and fairness, those with a greater power can not only deliver you the shaft - whether you deserve it or not - but in a manner such that your efforts to resist become an exercise in futility.

We are in agreement on the seriousness of the issue. During the course of the 10 parts, I had to put the Roku on pause numerous times so my wife and I could discuss how pissed off we were at some of the stuff we were seeing.

That doesn't mean I'm not allowed to find the dialogue and accents to be funny.

I live in North Carolina now and I find myself constantly chuckling.

[Jay Bee]

Thankfully that disgusting murderer Avery remains imprisoned.

[Blackhat]

He even looks like a dirty murderer.   He's lucky he's not hanging from an oak tree.

[brandx]

He even looks like a dirty murderer.   He's lucky he's not hanging from an oak tree.

I assume you're joking in response to a few posts?

[keefe]

WISN TV 12.

That is the same logo they had back in the day.

When Howard and Rosemary Gernette ruled the airwaves.

[wadesworld]

So how long do these things take?  If this attorney has such sure fire evidence that proves Avery is innocent like she's told anyone willing to listen she has, what is the process that has to happen for at least some kind of news to build up around it?  Every once in a while there will be some new piece of information that comes out and is hot for a day, and then goes away again (no way the garage isn't on fire, paperwork has faulty dates, etc. etc. etc.).

In my opinion, he never even sees a courtroom.  For those lawyers out there, if he does, how long will it be until he does?

[Benny B]

So how long do these things take?  If this attorney has such sure fire evidence that proves Avery is innocent like she's told anyone willing to listen she has, what is the process that has to happen for at least some kind of news to build up around it?  Every once in a while there will be some new piece of information that comes out and is hot for a day, and then goes away again (no way the garage isn't on fire, paperwork has faulty dates, etc. etc. etc.).

In my opinion, he never even sees a courtroom.  For those lawyers out there, if he does, how long will it be until he does?

Could be months, could be years. Unfortunately for Zellner, she's got the burden of proving him innocent at this point.  Keep in mind, Avery has already had appeals denied, so it's quite possible the strategy here is to not simply to demonstrate his innocence, but to find the guilty party.  And that takes time, especially when you consider she doesn't have the powers of law enforcement in her investigation.

Also, if it turns out that MCSD is complicit, then there's no rush to get him out... the longer he sits behind bars, the bigger the settlement.

[Jay Bee]

Biggest issue is that he's a dirty murdering effer.

[jsglow]

I'd be really surprised if he gets out or there is some 'new' evidence.  Funny how this was the total rage 90 days ago and now it's largely forgotten.  As has been said, he's totally out of appeals.  In my mind this strongly suggests that scores of folks have looked at it and have reached the same conclusion.  Again, I'm not swayed by a 'documentary'.  That isn't how we dispense justice here in America.  Now of course the courts aren't perfect.  But they're still our most foolproof system.

[Coleman]

I'd be really surprised if he gets out or there is some 'new' evidence.  Funny how this was the total rage 90 days ago and now it's largely forgotten.  As has been said, he's totally out of appeals.  In my mind this strongly suggests that scores of folks have looked at it and have reached the same conclusion.  Again, I'm not swayed by a 'documentary'.  That isn't how we dispense justice here in America.  Now of course the courts aren't perfect.  But they're still our most foolproof system.

Steven Avery aside, the treatment of Brendan Dassey by every member of the criminal justice system he encountered, from the sheriff's deputies, to his trial judge, to his own godd@mned court-appointed lawyer and investigator who were actively working against him while supposedly representing him, proves the system is nowhere even remotely close to foolproof. What happened to Mr. Dassey, in an attempt to solidify the case against his uncle, who admittedly very well could have committed the crime, was a tragic miscarriage of justice.

[jsglow]

Steven Avery aside, the treatment of Brendan Dassey by every member of the criminal justice system he encountered, from the sheriff's deputies, to his trial judge, to his own godd@mned court-appointed lawyer and investigator who were actively working against him while supposedly representing him, proves the system is nowhere even remotely close to foolproof. What happened to Mr. Dassey, in an attempt to solidify the case against his uncle, who admittedly very well could have committed the crime, was a tragic miscarriage of justice.

No disagreement.

[keefe]

Steven Avery aside, the treatment of Brendan Dassey by every member of the criminal justice system he encountered, from the sheriff's deputies, to his trial judge, to his own godd@mned court-appointed lawyer and investigator who were actively working against him while supposedly representing him, proves the system is nowhere even remotely close to foolproof. What happened to Mr. Dassey, in an attempt to solidify the case against his uncle, who admittedly very well could have committed the crime, was a tragic miscarriage of justice.

Well said. What happened to that kid by his own lawyer is unconscionable.

[wadesworld]

I don't really know what to think about Dassey.  From what I've read, if you listen to the entire 4 (I think it was?) hour confession, he provides some pretty detailed information that he probably couldn't have just made up and ironically matched some of the evidence, and probably didn't come from whatever book he said he made the confession up off of.  For example, he apparently said that Avery and him threw Halbach's body into the trunk of her Rav 4 because they were going to go throw the body into a pond, but when they got there the pond had dried up so they returned back to their property and made a fire.  That explains why there seemed to be blood stains coming off of a head of hair in the back of her Rav 4.  He also said that after they tried to do that, Avery ripped some kind of wiring from under the hood of the Rav 4, which would explain his DNA being under the hood of the car.  Unless you believe that sometime before the confession the police put these ideas into Dassey's head, I don't think he could've just happened to have made these things up unless he had some idea as to what really what went on.

The more I read about his confession, the more I think he was probably at the very least involved in the clean up.  And as far as I have heard, his confession was the entire case.

[Coleman]

I don't really know what to think about Dassey.  From what I've read, if you listen to the entire 4 (I think it was?) hour confession, he provides some pretty detailed information that he probably couldn't have just made up and ironically matched some of the evidence, and probably didn't come from whatever book he said he made the confession up off of.  For example, he apparently said that Avery and him threw Halbach's body into the trunk of her Rav 4 because they were going to go throw the body into a pond, but when they got there the pond had dried up so they returned back to their property and made a fire.  That explains why there seemed to be blood stains coming off of a head of hair in the back of her Rav 4.  He also said that after they tried to do that, Avery ripped some kind of wiring from under the hood of the Rav 4, which would explain his DNA being under the hood of the car.  Unless you believe that sometime before the confession the police put these ideas into Dassey's head, I don't think he could've just happened to have made these things up unless he had some idea as to what really what went on.

The more I read about his confession, the more I think he was probably at the very least involved in the clean up.  And as far as I have heard, his confession was the entire case.

All that aside, he had a lawyer that was actively working against him.

On what planet should someone like that be convicted?

[keefe]

All that aside, he had a lawyer that was actively working against him.

On what planet should someone like that be convicted?

How that man feels good about himself is beyond me.

[wadesworld]

All that aside, he had a lawyer that was actively working against him.

On what planet should someone like that be convicted?

Who he fired.

[Coleman]

Who he fired.

After he had already been duped by a private investigator, hired by said attorney into giving a completely made-up statement, which was allowed to be admitted into evidence during the trial.

Damage had been done.