Cecil the Lion

[Spotcheck Billy]

I'm really not a fan of trophy hunting, but really the entire public indictment against this dentist has gotten out of hand. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/07/29/as-the-world-mourned-cecil-the-lion-five-of-kenyas-endangered-elephants-were-slain/

[chapman]

Are you a licensed lawyer in Zimbabwe or something?

Someone's got to head up MU's new Zimbabwean Law course.  Kick things off with a good ol' lion hunting case study before diving into human rights and displacement issues.

[Spotcheck Billy]

then what are the zimbabwe guides being charged with if it is not illegal?

From LionAid's website:

Accusations are swirling, but let's tease these complicated strands apart.

1. It is completely legal to bait lions in Zimbabwe – it is standard practice. Cecil was shot with a bow and arrow from a blind. That is also legal. Cecil was shot badly and was only put out of his misery 40 hours later. That is what happens regularly in trophy hunting.

2. Cecil was shot outside a national park in a private hunting concession. That is also legal. It is not illegal to kill radiocollared lions.

3. But Cecil was shot in an area not assigned a lion quota. Supposedly the bait was set for a leopard and then Cecil came along. The professional hunter, Theo Bronkhorst told his client to shoot the lion, and then the hunt became illegal.

4. The professional hunter then allegedly attempted to destroy the radiocollar to hide the evidence. Allegedly the client was "furious" when he found that the lion was radiocollared. Allegedly, when a professional hunter engages a client in an area without lion quota, the lion will be listed as hunted in an area that does have quota. This could have been standard practice, but unfortunately Cecil was a well-known lion.

5. The professional hunter and the concession owner are now being investigated. Both were allegedly arrested and released on bail. Bronkhorst has been suspended from the Zimbabwe Professional Hunters and Guides Association. He will likely abscond rather than face trial unless he is confident of the possible bribes he has paid to an entirely corrupt judiciary. The concession owner is allegedly related to the Zimbabwe Minister of Transport and will therefore be immune from prosecution.

6. There seems now to be a desire to find the "client" who shot Cecil. Some say he is Spanish, some say he is American. Whatever his nationality, this man cannot really be prosecuted. A client does what his professional hunter tells him. A client usually has no idea about the laws and regulations of the country he is hunting in – he just buys a safari and then places himself in the hands of his professional hunter guide. Finding the client could be interesting to let him tell his side of the story, but in terms of legal prosecution this person is hardly important.

http://www.lionaid.org/news/2015/07/the-cecil-factor.htm#sthash.92WoJn7V.dpuf

[Spotcheck Billy]

Might get interesting.  US has an extradition treaty with Zimbabwe....

except it has some limitations which could help Palmer:
Zimbabwe has a extradition treaty with the United States, signed by President Bill Clinton in 2000, applicable to all crimes punishable by more than a year in jail. The crime must be punishable at that level in both countries in order for extradition to occur.

But in the United States, federal laws against poaching foreign animals appear to apply specifically to transporting an animal's carcass, or "trophies," after it's been killed -- and not to the act of killing itself.

The African lion is protected under the Convention on International Trade and Endangered Species, and is being considered for protection under the Endangered Species Act. That decision will likely not happen for months -- and regardless, a violation of the act carries a maximum criminal penalty of only "up to one year" of incarceration per violation.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Regardless of whether or not it is determined what this jag did is legal he's got some serious psychological issues to even engage in something of this nature for fun, IMO.  I think the recent words of Jimmy Kimmel sum it up nicely:

"The big question is why are you shooting a lion in the first place?  I'm honestly curious to know why a human being would feel compelled to do that.  How is that fun?  Is it that difficult for you to get an erection that you need to kill things that are stronger than you?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LzXpE1mjqA

[Benny B]

Are you a licensed lawyer in Zimbabwe or something?

No... but when it comes to just about anything Africa-related, British media can't be beat.  Not to mention, Zimbabwe's legal system is pretty much based on British law, so I'm simply following the limeys on this one.

[JWags85]

From LionAid's website:

Accusations are swirling, but let's tease these complicated strands apart.

1. It is completely legal to bait lions in Zimbabwe – it is standard practice. Cecil was shot with a bow and arrow from a blind. That is also legal. Cecil was shot badly and was only put out of his misery 40 hours later. That is what happens regularly in trophy hunting.

2. Cecil was shot outside a national park in a private hunting concession. That is also legal. It is not illegal to kill radiocollared lions.

Regardless of this story, these two facts are pretty terrible, especially for somewhere preaching "conservation".  Especially #2.  Killing lions is one thing you can debate, but legally allowing the killing of animals specifically tagged and monitored for research purposes is garbage.

As the story progresses, I just realize more and more what an absolute joke trophy hunting is.  Legal or otherwise.

[Benny B]

Regardless of this story, these two facts are pretty terrible, especially for somewhere preaching "conservation".  Especially #2.  Killing lions is one thing you can debate, but legally allowing the killing of animals specifically tagged and monitored for research purposes is garbage.

As the story progresses, I just realize more and more what an absolute joke trophy hunting is.  Legal or otherwise.

It looks like Lion Aid actually has the radio-collar thing wrong.  Generally speaking, it may be legal to kill a collared animal, but there was something about this scenario that made it illegal.  It wasn't just that Cecil was collared, it appears to have something to do with the proximity to the refuge.  In any event, the radio-collar was cited at Bronkhorst's arraignment as being some element of the illegal hunt.

As to the legitimacy of these hunts, quotas/permits for lions are determined by the number and locations of human-lion conflicts. Areas with higher conflict reports have higher quotas, so this reasoning seems to explain why the gov't (rightfully) allows such hunts, though it apparently wasn't the rationale for Dentisto the Lion Exterminator.

[ChicosBailBonds]

[MUsoxfan]

I once heard that conservatives are compassionate. Guess that's been slightly overstated

[keefe]

I don't see this as a legal question (though there might be legal dimensions.)

This is an ethical problem. Killing a lion for sport makes no sense on any level.

[MerrittsMustache]

Personally, I'm with Marco Rubio on this one.

[Blackhat]

What's Rubio's stance?   Create a Cecil rug?

[Golden Avalanche]

The Environmental Minister has started the extradition process for Palmer. I'd highly doubt the USJD will follow suit and we'll likely see remunerations of some sort made over the next months in Palmer's name and everyone will go back to their lives with this becoming nothing more than a footnote.

[Blackhat]

Let's just hope the #mkelion doesn't know Cecil, otherwise serious retribution may be coming.

[WellsstreetWanderer]

Curious the uproar about Cecil while barely a whimper about Planned Parenthood selling body parts of the unborn.

  For many years my friends and I would trailer our dogs out to places in the West and Midwest to bird hunt. We would employ guides who obtained ranches and farms where we could enjoy the dog work and harvest some mighty good eating.  We were entirely in their hands as to where we could legally be. But rest assured we were all up-to-date on what the local laws were and abided by them. I assume  the guy paid the professional guides to provide a legal hunt .  If he is dodgy then he deserves all the criticism coming to him.

[GooooMarquette]

The Environmental Minister has started the extradition process for Palmer. I'd highly doubt the USJD will follow suit and we'll likely see remunerations of some sort made over the next months in Palmer's name and everyone will go back to their lives with this becoming nothing more than a footnote.

Hard to say...but I don't think he's helping his case by dodging the US Fish and Wildlife Service.  The most recent story I've seen indicates that they haven't been able to get in contact with him and are publicly asking him to call. 

[keefe]

Hard to say...but I don't think he's helping his case by dodging the US Fish and Wildlife Service.  The most recent story I've seen indicates that they haven't been able to get in contact with him and are publicly asking him to call.

Doc, Isn't his issue with the US authorities bringing the head and skin back into the US?

[GooooMarquette]

Doc, Isn't his issue with the US authorities bringing the head and skin back into the US?

Could very well be, but he might also have an issue under our extradition treaty with Zimbabwe.  US officials are probably waiting to hear what Zimbabwe might charge him with, so they can determine whether the comparable offense in the US (for example, shooting a protected animal in an area where it wasn't permitted) meets the minimum requirements for extradition. 

[Benny B]

Doc, Isn't his issue with the US authorities bringing the head and skin back into the US?

The lion's head and skin aren't in the US.  They have been taken into custody in Zimbabwe.

It can take months, sometimes longer, to go through taxidermy and process an import permit.

Now, if the report that the head and skin are in custody turns out to be false and Palmer actually brought it back without a permit, ruh-roh, rorge.

[4everwarriors]

Some entrepreneur in MN will likely start sellin' tee shirts that say, "I Survived Bein' Dr. Palmer's Patient," ai na?

[#UnleashSean]

Someone kills someone in Chicago, it gets a small blurb on the news. Someone kills a lion in Africa and everyone losses their crap. LOGIC

[warriorchick]

Someone kills someone in Chicago, it gets a small blurb on the news. Someone kills a lion in Africa and everyone losses their crap. LOGIC

Chicagoans aren't as cute and furry as lions.

[GooooMarquette]

Someone kills someone in Chicago, it gets a small blurb on the news. Someone kills a lion in Africa and everyone losses their crap. LOGIC

Why can't we get upset about both?

[#UnleashSean]

Why can't we get upset about both?

Because we don't. Theres a million things way more terrible in this world then this, but were getting upset over a lion. It's a lion.