Cecil the Lion

[ATWizJr]

I wonder if Zimbabwe will charge this jackhole and ask the US to extradite him to Africa to face charges.

[Spotcheck Billy]

From what I've read the man will not face any charges because he hired (un)professional guides and it is actually legal to bait a lion off a preserve and kill it.

[ATWizJr]

From what I've read the man will not face any charges because he hired (un)professional guides and it is actually legal to bait a lion off a preserve and kill it.

then what are the zimbabwe guides being charged with if it is not illegal?

[MUsoxfan]

Hopefully he doesn't have lots of savings, because his career is over

[real chili 83]

People
Eating
Tasty
Animals

[keefe]

I hunt deer and turkey because both are delicious.   

Anyone who has spent time in Germany knows how good venison is. I was stationed at Spangdahlem and the restaurants in that area all featured wild venison from the many nearby forests on their menu. One of the finest cuts of meat anywhere.

[🏀]

Anyone who has spent time in Germany knows how good venison is. I was stationed at Spangdahlem and the restaurants in that area all featured wild venison from the many nearby forests on their menu. One of the finest cuts of meat anywhere.

Good cut of meat when of quality and prepared correctly.

Very hard to cook properly, small window or perfection.

[keefe]

Good cut of meat when of quality and prepared correctly.

Very hard to cook properly, small window or perfection.

When people think of German food they index to sausage and pork but the finest dishes are centered on venison. The restaurants I frequented offered stellar venison.

I don't hunt but I have no problem with responsible sport. And if guys are bringing home venison I get the attraction. It can be fabulous.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Agreed on all accounts.   Hell.... I actually agree with PETA on this one: "hunting is a coward's pastime."

If you're hunting for food, then I have no beef with you; just remember your old friend Benny the next time you can't fit those last few venison steaks into your freezer.  If your purpose in hunting is to help "cull the herd," then I also take no exception to your leisure.  Heck, I'll even recognize the camaraderie and family bonding experience of deer camp as a legitimate reason to hunt if that's your excuse for picking up a rifle (so long as the group itself observes one of the two aforementioned purposes).

But if you hunt strictly for the "thrill" of killing an animal and hanging its head on your wall, then there's something seriously wrong with you.

What about not hunting for food, but to thin the herds?  Otherwise they can reak havoc on crops, starve themselves, etc?

Just curious.  I don't find hunting cowardice at all, especially when using a bow.  That being said, I can see the argument. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Hopefully he doesn't have lots of savings, because his career is over

I doubt its over.  This will go away within a few weeks.  USA is the land of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 9th chances.

[real chili 83]

I doubt its over.  This will go away within a few weeks.  USA is the land of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 9th chances.

Pretty soon the peta and vegan buffoons will get tired, or be distracted by a tofu Bogo at Whole Foods.

That's who's outiside his practice right now. 

These are the people who want us to feel bad for eating a cheeseburger.  Bacon cheeseburger....oh no! 

Not condoning his actions.

The Maassai tribe in Africa kill lions as a rite of passage.  Same result.  Dead lion.  At the end of the day....

[MUsoxfan]

I doubt its over.  This will go away within a few weeks.  USA is the land of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 9th chances.

I doubt many patients want to give money to a doctor so he can turn it over to African poachers for the opportunity to "do what he enjoys". But we'll see

[ChicosBailBonds]

I doubt many patients want to give money to a doctor so he can turn it over to African poachers for the opportunity to "do what he enjoys". But we'll see

From what I understand, he has also given a ton of money to animal conservation, etc.  A lot of that not reported, which of course should surprise no one in this soundbyte, 128 character world.   It will be interesting to read the entire story.

At any rate, he'll keep plenty of patients and rebuild over the years.  I sincerely doubt it will kill his career, though it could certainly harm it for the next few years.

[source?]

What about not hunting for food, but to thin the herds?  Otherwise they can reak havoc on crops, starve themselves, etc?

Just curious.  I don't find hunting cowardice at all, especially when using a bow.  That being said, I can see the argument.

Try reading that again, he said he takes no exception to thinning the herd.

[keefe]

From what I understand, he has also given a ton of money to animal conservation, etc.  A lot of that not reported, which of course should surprise no one in this soundbyte, 128 character world.   It will be interesting to read the entire story.

At any rate, he'll keep plenty of patients and rebuild over the years.  I sincerely doubt it will kill his career, though it could certainly harm it for the next few years.

And Hitler was a patron of the opera. So what?

What this guy did was unconscionable. He takes joy in killing for killing sake.

I don't get the thrill in destroying life. I have taken life in the service of my country but it was never pleasurable. You do it because it is war. And if you do start to enjoy it you need to get out immediately.

There is a reason AFSOC made us sit down with shrinks. Like every TACP I know, I take Prazosin every night to tame the nightmares stemming from the awful things we experienced and witnessed, Normal, rational, compassionate human beings do not enjoy killing.   

What I don't understand about this guy is he pays for the privilege of killing animals who are worth his attention only for the fact of being exotic. He kills animals because they are unusual.

Here is the only circumstance under which I would be impressed by that dentist killing a lion, bear, cougar, or any of the other animals he shot dead: if he fought them bare handed. But a coward like that would sh1t his pants without a mechanical weapon in his hands. At least in warfare the other side can legitimately fight back.

[naginiF]

Pretty soon the peta and vegan buffoons will get tired, or be distracted by a tofu Bogo at Whole Foods.

That's who's outiside his practice right now. 

These are the people who want us to feel bad for eating a cheeseburger.  Bacon cheeseburger....oh no! 

Not condoning his actions.

The Maassai tribe in Africa kill lions as a rite of passage.  Same result.  Dead lion.  At the end of the day....

Extremists aside when you think about why we don't think twice about industrialized slaughter of cows and pigs but are revolted by thoughts of people eating dogs or horses is only because we never formed a bond with cows and pigs.  Other than bond/usefulness of an animal the only reason we don't have an industry around other mammals is size/output or how docile that animal was X years ago.

I understand the side that says it's cruel to the cow/pig just as it would be to the horse/dog.

BTW - i'm not a vegetarian.  A few years ago I developed a beef allergy through a tick bite (before you ask, figuring out you have a beef allergy is WAY worse than living with it) which got me thinking about the above and now I very rarely eat pork. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

And Hitler was a patron of the opera. So what?

What this guy did was unconscionable. He takes joy in killing for killing sake.

I don't get the thrill in destroying life. I have taken life in the service of my country but it was never pleasurable. You do it because it is war. And if you do start to enjoy it you need to get out immediately.

There is a reason AFSOC made us sit down with shrinks. Like every TACP I know, I take Prazosin every night to tame the nightmares stemming from the awful things we experienced and witnessed, Normal, rational, compassionate human beings do not enjoy killing.   

What I don't understand about this guy is he pays for the privilege of killing animals who are worth his attention only for the fact of being exotic. He kills animals because they are unusual.

Here is the only circumstance under which I would be impressed by that dentist killing a lion, bear, cougar, or any of the other animals he shot dead: if he fought them bare handed. But a coward like that would sh1t his pants without a mechanical weapon in his hands. At least in warfare the other side can legitimately fight back.

Since you brought up military...is it cowardice to drop a nuclear bomb from 20K feet on defenseless people?  What about bombing in general? 

Look, I get your argument.  It's reasonable, rationale, etc.  Hunting isn't for everyone.  I find the what he paid for the experience to be totally irrelevent.  That was the price to pay to hunt in that area.  I find it more appalling that we are freaked out as a nation over this when we have millions of babies killed each year...defenseless babies.....and it doesn't even cost $50k.

[GGGG]

I'm really not a fan of trophy hunting, but really the entire public indictment against this dentist has gotten out of hand. 

[4everwarriors]

Clearly the mofo doesn't know what to do with all his fookin' scratch, ai na?

[JWags85]

The Maassai tribe in Africa kill lions as a rite of passage.  Same result.  Dead lion.  At the end of the day....

Thats like comparing Native American tribes hunting of buffalo to settles killing whole herds and leaving most of their bodies in the fields to rot.  I'm not going to compare sport hunting with rifles of animals who have little fear of humans to much less developed tribes killing a lion with a spear at close range where that lion very well may kill you.

From what I understand, he has also given a ton of money to animal conservation, etc.  A lot of that not reported, which of course should surprise no one in this soundbyte, 128 character world.   It will be interesting to read the entire story.

He also has been charged with illegally killing a bear in Wisconsin, and then lying to a DNR agent about it, before.  So clearly he's not immune from thinking he's above the law when it comes to such things.

I just find it shocking and unbelievable that someone of his experience and veteran of other big game safari hunts would have no knowledge of what was going on.  Not to mention attempting to destroy the tracker.

Whoever posted that its legal to bait a lion off a preserve, that can't be right.  And if so, why are the other hunters being prosecuted?  It would completely undermine the point of a game preserve.

I had a coworker saying that since he had a legal permit to hunt a lion this is all nonsense and fluff.  I told him this was like having a deer tag and walking over to a deer farm, cutting a hole in the fence while sprinkling corn, and then shooting deer that walked through the hole.

Of course the outrage is excessive, welcome to 2015.  But if it brings any sort of visibility to this sort of shenanigans, then I view it worth it.

[warriorchick]

From what I understand, he has also given a ton of money to animal conservation, etc.  A lot of that not reported, which of course should surprise no one in this soundbyte, 128 character world.   It will be interesting to read the entire story.

And Donald Sterling gave millions of dollars to the NAACP.

[Benny B]

then what are the zimbabwe guides being charged with if it is not illegal?

Baiting is perfectly legal but the there seems to be some misinformation as to whether baiting/luring a lion out of a protected habitat is illegal.  Nevertheless, it is illegal to kill a collared lion, not to mention, the lion was shot on private property that was not licensed or permitted for a lion hunt.  Either way, the hunt itself is deemed illegal (poaching).

The guide (Bronkhorst) is facing a $20,000 fine and (possibly) 10 years for "failing to supervise, control and take reasonable steps to prevent an unlawful hunt".  The landowner (Ndlovu) is expected to testify for the state first in Bronkhorst's hearing, after which, he's expected to be charged as well.  There is speculation that Ndlovu may have falsely represented the permit status of his land; otherwise, Bronkhorst could be charged with poaching as well if he knew the land was not licensed.

Palmer could be charged with poaching, though there are differing interpretations of Zimbabwean law as to whether a client can be charged with poaching if he/she was relying upon hired guides.  That said, who gets convicted of anything comes down to the question of what did Bronkhost, Ndlovu and Palmer each know and when did they know it.

The worst case scenario for Palmer is if he knew (or had reason to believe) that the land was not permitted for a lion hunt or if anyone identified the collar prior to the initial arrow shot.  In which case, all three would probably be charged (and most likely convicted) of poaching.  That said, if it's likely to turn into a "he said"-"he said" between Ndlovu and Bronkhorst, it's possible that Palmer will be charged and extradited simply to get him to testify as to what he knew... not so much to determine his own guilt but to ascertain the guilt of Bronkhorst or Ndlovu; however, Zimbabwe may be reluctant to petition for extradition unless they know that they can convict Palmer because big game hunting is a big part of the economy there and they don't want to scare off would-be hunters who drop tens of thousands of dollars for just a few days in country.

[keefe]

Since you brought up military...is it cowardice to drop a nuclear bomb from 20K feet on defenseless people?  What about bombing in general? 

Look, I get your argument.  It's reasonable, rationale, etc.  Hunting isn't for everyone.  I find the what he paid for the experience to be totally irrelevent.  That was the price to pay to hunt in that area.  I find it more appalling that we are freaked out as a nation over this when we have millions of babies killed each year...defenseless babies.....and it doesn't even cost $50k.

There are legitimate morality questions around the strategic bombing campaigns against Germany and Japan that still are still being asked today. These issues are mandatory discussion at Air War College. And there are no simple answers.

Personally, I believe that the strategic bombing of Germany played a decisive role in hastening the end of that war. And the only alternative to invading the home islands was bombing Japan intro submission. I cannot possibly articulate an informed perspective on the question you raise in a pithy sound bite so I will simply say that strategic bombing ultimately saved lives - on both sides.





 

[GGGG]

Baiting is perfectly legal but the there seems to be some misinformation as to whether baiting/luring a lion out of a protected habitat is illegal.  Nevertheless, it is illegal to kill a collared lion, not to mention, the lion was shot on private property that was not licensed or permitted for a lion hunt.  Either way, the hunt itself is deemed illegal (poaching).

The guide (Bronkhorst) is facing a $20,000 fine and (possibly) 10 years for "failing to supervise, control and take reasonable steps to prevent an unlawful hunt".  The landowner (Ndlovu) is expected to testify for the state first in Bronkhorst's hearing, after which, he's expected to be charged as well.  There is speculation that Ndlovu may have falsely represented the permit status of his land; otherwise, Bronkhorst could be charged with poaching as well if he knew the land was not licensed.

Palmer could be charged with poaching, though there are differing interpretations of Zimbabwean law as to whether a client can be charged with poaching if he/she was relying upon hired guides.  That said, who gets convicted of anything comes down to the question of what did Bronkhost, Ndlovu and Palmer each know and when did they know it.

The worst case scenario for Palmer is if he knew (or had reason to believe) that the land was not permitted for a lion hunt or if anyone identified the collar prior to the initial arrow shot.  In which case, all three would probably be charged (and most likely convicted) of poaching.  That said, if it's likely to turn into a "he said"-"he said" between Ndlovu and Bronkhorst, it's possible that Palmer will be charged and extradited simply to get him to testify as to what he knew... not so much to determine his own guilt but to ascertain the guilt of Bronkhorst or Ndlovu; however, Zimbabwe may be reluctant to petition for extradition unless they know that they can convict Palmer because big game hunting is a big part of the economy there and they don't want to scare off would-be hunters who drop tens of thousands of dollars for just a few days in country.

Are you a licensed lawyer in Zimbabwe or something?

[GooooMarquette]

Are you a licensed lawyer in Zimbabwe or something?

Maybe Benny stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night....