Cavs’ Kyrie Irving to Miss Rest of NBA Finals for Knee Surgery

[JWags85]

Jordan competed in a league totally different than today's league.  He never took a bunch of stiffs to the Finals.  ESPN did a whole show on the radio yesterday about this, they agreed it wasn't close....the other way.  They felt Jordan had way more talent with him every stretch of the way for every title.

I don't think he has the gas in the tank to pull this off and some of the absolute scrubs will fold, but just getting there this far is a testament to how great the player is.

You openly crow about watching the NBA so I wouldn't expect you to know that its not true.  This isn't the Miami Heat superstar laden team, but the narrative that the Cavs are a bunch of scrubs because Delladova gets substantial minutes now is absolutely laughable.

JR Smith is a moron, but one year removed from being 6th man of the year.  Iman Shumpert is a top tier NBA defender.  Both just toiled away in a worthless Knicks organization that couldn't utilize talent if its life depended on it.

Tristan Thompson averaged a double double the last two years before sitting behind Love.  Less than 3 years removed from being a top 3 pick and on the all-Rookie team.  Mozgov is a more than capable center who has been on bad teams his whole career and has been very good all year.

And he's out the rest of the series, but Kyrie is a superstar and they don't beat the Bulls in that series without him.  

They aren't the Miami Heat or the early 2000s Lakers, but the idea that Lebron has dragged a joke of a team to the Finals is absurd.  Offensively flawed at times, absolutely, but a top 3 defensive unit, especially without Love and even without Kyrie.

[RushmoreAcademy]

Jordan was in this position before, and he could never get by the Celtics or Pistons. 

That's not really fair either though to compare the competition in the East the years Jordan wasn't winning to what Lebron just went through. That Pistons team had 3 hall of famers on it.   That late 80's Celtics team had 5.  Would Lebron have carried this team any further than Jordan carried his bums?  Against those Celtics or those Pistons?  Probably not.

[wadesworld]

Jordan competed in a league totally different than today's league.  He never took a bunch of stiffs to the Finals.  ESPN did a whole show on the radio yesterday about this, they agreed it wasn't close....the other way.  They felt Jordan had way more talent with him every stretch of the way for every title.

Jordan was in this position before, and he could never get by the Celtics or Pistons.  If it's all about winning, well Bill Russell destroys Jordan.

I realize the Chicago homers are going ballistic right now....save it.  Jordan is one of if not the greatest player to play the game.  Hard to compare eras or positions.  Teammates matter.  Lebron is doing something Jordan never did.  Jordan has done things LeBron never did. 

I don't think he has the gas in the tank to pull this off and some of the absolute scrubs will fold, but just getting there this far is a testament to how great the player is.

Disagreed.  If we're going to talk about how much better Jordan's teammates were and his inability to get by the Pistons and Celtics before he had great teammates, then we need to talk about how embarrassingly bad the Eastern Conference is that James has gone through the past 5 years.  And especially this year.  They beat the Celtics, Bulls, and Hawks to get to the Finals.  None of those teams is even remotely close to what those Pistons and Celtics teams were that Jordan was losing to.  Not even close.

[Lennys Tap]

Disagreed.  If we're going to talk about how much better Jordan's teammates were and his inability to get by the Pistons and Celtics before he had great teammates, then we need to talk about how embarrassingly bad the Eastern Conference is that James has gone through the past 5 years.  And especially this year.  They beat the Celtics, Bulls, and Hawks to get to the Finals.  None of those teams is even remotely close to what those Pistons and Celtics teams were that Jordan was losing to.  Not even close.

+1000. Give those Jordan teams a road that includes this year's Celtics, Bulls and Hawks and they breeze to the finals.

As for Golden State, I watched the Bulls beat them on the road in overtime this year (on a night when Rose was 10-30), then saw the Cavs beat them with LeBron going 10-35. I know they're good more often than not but so far in this series they look very beatable.

[RushmoreAcademy]

As for Golden State, I watched the Bulls beat them on the road in overtime this year (on a night when Rose was 10-30), then saw the Cavs beat them with LeBron going 10-35. I know they're good more often than not but so far in this series they look very beatable.

Ya. Golden State is a very good team. Their record and analytics tell us that.  However, right now they are the greatest team that has never won anything.  Let's at least slow down on their praise until they actually do win.

[wadesworld]

Golden State is very good.  If the Cavs beat them it will be beyond impressive.

I'm going with Golden State in 5.

[GGGG]

You openly crow about watching the NBA so I wouldn't expect you to know that its not true.  This isn't the Miami Heat superstar laden team, but the narrative that the Cavs are a bunch of scrubs because Delladova gets substantial minutes now is absolutely laughable.

JR Smith is a moron, but one year removed from being 6th man of the year.  Iman Shumpert is a top tier NBA defender.  Both just toiled away in a worthless Knicks organization that couldn't utilize talent if its life depended on it.

Tristan Thompson averaged a double double the last two years before sitting behind Love.  Less than 3 years removed from being a top 3 pick and on the all-Rookie team.  Mozgov is a more than capable center who has been on bad teams his whole career and has been very good all year.

And he's out the rest of the series, but Kyrie is a superstar and they don't beat the Bulls in that series without him. 

They aren't the Miami Heat or the early 2000s Lakers, but the idea that Lebron has dragged a joke of a team to the Finals is absurd.  Offensively flawed at times, absolutely, but a top 3 defensive unit, especially without Love and even without Kyrie.

They aren't scrubs you are correct.  But the players on the court now are really nothing more than above average players.  Perhaps an all-star game in their future, but that's about it.

Jordan had Scottie Pippen, one of the all-time greats, as his teammate for all six championships.  He had Kukoc and Rodman for the last three.  All three of those guys were better than anyone the Cavs puts on the floor now.  (Perhaps Thompson could be considered a less flashy version of Rodman.)  And Phil Jackson was a better coach than Blatt.

And believe me, I consider Jordan to be the greatest player of all time.  Even if Lebron goes 50/15/15 for the rest of the series, I will still believe that. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Game 1 of regular season starting Cavs Lineup

LeBron James
Dion Waiters
Kyrie Irving
Anderson Varejao
Kevin Love


Starting lineup for the NBA Finals game 2 and beyond

LeBron James
Dion Waiters
Kyrie Irving
Anderson Varejao
Kevin Love

[JWags85]

They aren't scrubs you are correct.  But the players on the court now are really nothing more than above average players.  Perhaps an all-star game in their future, but that's about it.

Jordan had Scottie Pippen, one of the all-time greats, as his teammate for all six championships.  He had Kukoc and Rodman for the last three.  All three of those guys were better than anyone the Cavs puts on the floor now.  (Perhaps Thompson could be considered a less flashy version of Rodman.)  And Phil Jackson was a better coach than Blatt.

And believe me, I consider Jordan to be the greatest player of all time.  Even if Lebron goes 50/15/15 for the rest of the series, I will still believe that. 

I agree with you.  I think Thompson and Rodman are comparable as they are at different stages of their career, Thompson has finally found his niche while Rodman with the Bulls was on the tail end of a unique and exceptional career.  But you're right.

My whole point is there is a big difference between winning without another superstar or two, and pulling along some rag tag band of misfits.  Thus far he's made it through a weak East, largely assisted by another superstar (Irving).  Now he's playing with a bit more a stacked deck, but its not like its Lebron and the Sixers.  Its Lebron and a few occasional all-stars.  And those players are all VERY good defensively (expect for JR Smith).  Thompson will be an All-Star at some point, and given the lack of good centers, I wouldn't be surprised to see Mozgov if he continues playing on teams that aren't abysmal.

[JWags85]

Game 1 of regular season starting Cavs Lineup

LeBron James
Dion Waiters
Kyrie Irving
Anderson Varejao
Kevin Love


Starting lineup for the NBA Finals game 2 and beyond

LeBron James
Dion Waiters
Kyrie Irving
Anderson Varejao
Kevin Love

They traded Waiters cause he sucks and without Varejo, Thompson never becomes the force he has become and they don't trade for Mozgov.  Also, not sure your point other than the injuries to Love and Irving that have been discussed ad nauseum.  Varejo was never all that good.  Addition by subtraction.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You openly crow about watching the NBA so I wouldn't expect you to know that its not true.  This isn't the Miami Heat superstar laden team, but the narrative that the Cavs are a bunch of scrubs because Delladova gets substantial minutes now is absolutely laughable.

JR Smith is a moron, but one year removed from being 6th man of the year.  Iman Shumpert is a top tier NBA defender.  Both just toiled away in a worthless Knicks organization that couldn't utilize talent if its life depended on it.

Tristan Thompson averaged a double double the last two years before sitting behind Love.  Less than 3 years removed from being a top 3 pick and on the all-Rookie team.  Mozgov is a more than capable center who has been on bad teams his whole career and has been very good all year.

And he's out the rest of the series, but Kyrie is a superstar and they don't beat the Bulls in that series without him.  

They aren't the Miami Heat or the early 2000s Lakers, but the idea that Lebron has dragged a joke of a team to the Finals is absurd.  Offensively flawed at times, absolutely, but a top 3 defensive unit, especially without Love and even without Kyrie.

ESPN Radio did a nice analysis on this yesterday.

They rated the players by using letter grades.

Shumpert, they gave a C.  Smith a B.  Thompson a B-.  Delladova a D.  Miller a C-.  Marion a C.  Perkins a C.  Jones a C.  Mozgov a B. 

Compared to who they are playing with three A's according to ESPN.  It was interesting.   We can debate the level of stiffs and the definition, but this Cavs team only won 50 some games in the horrible East.  Now without their two other A players, the fact they are even in this is saying something.


What I love most about all this, all the haters in this world are suddenly cheering for LeBron.  That's pretty cool.  I've never seen an athlete go through the hatred that guy goes through.  He can't have a bad quarter without the hate while Curry can lay an entire egg for a game and it is "just a bad game".

I don't expect the Cavs to win, but I hope they do.  Mostly for Cleveland and my relatives that live there that have gone through sports hell for 50+ years, but also for James who takes more crap than any athlete ever has.

[JWags85]

Compared to who they are playing with three A's according to ESPN.  It was interesting.   We can debate the level of stiffs and the definition, but this Cavs team only won 50 some games in the horrible East.  Now without their two other A players, the fact they are even in this is saying something.

What I love most about all this, all the haters in this world are suddenly cheering for LeBron.  That's pretty cool.  I've never seen an athlete go through the hatred that guy goes through.  He can't have a bad quarter without the hate while Curry can lay an entire egg for a game and it is "just a bad game".

I don't expect the Cavs to win, but I hope they do.  Mostly for Cleveland and my relatives that live there that have gone through sports hell for 50+ years, but also for James who takes more crap than any athlete ever has.

They also were a completely new team with a bunch of new high profile pieces learning to play together.  Same thing happened with the early days of the Lebron Heat teams.  And Lebron took off 2 weeks mid season.

As for the rest, I'm not even going to go into it.  Everyone who has crafted a "Lebron the victim" narrative the last week is high.  You can feel for Cleveland fans, but feeling for a man who already has 2 rings and only came home cause he saw a window of opportunity and still makes everything about himself over his team, no matter what his fluffy media manipulation says, give me a break.  I had 3 people tell me after Game 2 that they are rooting for the Cavs after seeing Lebron not get any calls.  Those people aren't worthy of discussing sports with.

[Lennys Tap]

I don't expect the Cavs to win, but I hope they do.  Mostly for Cleveland and my relatives that live there that have gone through sports hell for 50+ years, but also for James who takes more crap than any athlete ever has.

James takes more crap than any athlete ever has? What are you, nuts? Ever heard of Jackie Robinson?

[GGGG]

As for the rest, I'm not even going to go into it.  Everyone who has crafted a "Lebron the victim" narrative the last week is high.  You can feel for Cleveland fans, but feeling for a man who already has 2 rings and only came home cause he saw a window of opportunity and still makes everything about himself over his team, no matter what his fluffy media manipulation says, give me a break.  I had 3 people tell me after Game 2 that they are rooting for the Cavs after seeing Lebron not get any calls.  Those people aren't worthy of discussing sports with.

I don't really care why he went back to Cleveland.  He was a free agent and could play wherever he wanted.

But I have no clue what you mean by the bolded.  Does he do this more than other super-star players do...or did?  His game doesn't lead me to believe that when I watch them play.  I don't notice anything off the floor substantially different than other players.

[JWags85]

I don't really care why he went back to Cleveland.  He was a free agent and could play wherever he wanted.

But I have no clue what you mean by the bolded.  Does he do this more than other super-star players do...or did?  His game doesn't lead me to believe that when I watch them play.  I don't notice anything off the floor substantially different than other players.

I just meant the narrative of wanting to go back home wasn't as altruistic as some people want to believe.  Again, neither here nor there as he was a free agent, but cheapens the whole "I bleed for Cleveland and its people" nonsense.  Same dude who once said "I'm from Akron, We hated Cleveland growing up."

Laying on the floor crying about a foul at the end of Game 3 against Atlanta on a critical play as his teammates scramble to cover for him.  Playing up his injuries the entire playoffs ("I don't even know how I even finished the game" after a simple ankle roll in the Bulls game), including mentioning a wrist injury leading up to the Finals that had never been spoken about.  Taking credit for Kyrie's successes.  His interviews the entire playoffs have been ridiculous.

I'm not saying all superstars don't plead for fouls, enjoy the glory, want credit, but Lebron has taken the need to be liked and praised to a different level.  Kobe and Jordan were competitive psychopaths, they needed success and glory, but didn't give a damn if they were loved.  Lebron is the opposite.  I just think he's an absolute phony.  And thats only significant cause the media wants to portray him as the sincerest individual in the league.

[GGGG]

Kobe and Jordan were competitive psychopaths, they needed success and glory, but didn't give a damn if they were loved.  Lebron is the opposite.  I just think he's an absolute phony.  And thats only significant cause the media wants to portray him as the sincerest individual in the league.

OK, well I don't disagree with that.  But I enjoy watching competitive psychopaths because they are competitive psychopaths.  How the media portrays them, or how phony they are, is really of no interest to me.  (And Jordan had a pretty well crafted image himself by the way.)

[brandx]

I'm not saying all superstars don't plead for fouls, enjoy the glory, want credit, but Lebron has taken the need to be liked and praised to a different level.  Kobe and Jordan were competitive psychopaths, they needed success and glory, but didn't give a damn if they were loved.  Lebron is the opposite.  I just think he's an absolute phony.  And thats only significant cause the media wants to portray him as the sincerest individual in the league.

Lebron is a better human being than MJ or Kobe 8 days a week.

[GGGG]

Lebron is a better human being than MJ or Kobe 8 days a week.

I think you should be careful about making statements like that. 

[wadesworld]

I have made it pretty clear that I can't stand LeBron.  I also will not deny that he is one of the greatest players to ever play the game.  His basketball and athletic abilities are unlike just about anybody ever to walk this earth.  I just personally prefer someone who does not overreact to everything like I believe LeBron does.

LeBron is playing under the weather in the Hawks series.  The buzzer sounds, LeBron takes about 4 steps towards walking off the court, and then he realizes, "Hey, people know I'm not feeling the best, I can really milk this thing."  All of a sudden he's going down on all fours as if he couldn't possibly take another step even if he had to.  It's hard for me to respect that when his teammate breaks his kneecap and tries his best to run back on defense before trying to hide his limp until he is out of site of the fans, at which point you clearly see Irving was much more injured than what he let people see.  If that was LeBron who broke his knee cap is there any doubt he would've remained on the ground until he was carried off the court?  Kyrie is a warrior.  LeBron leans into defenders to get calls.  It's the difference in mentality that I don't like about LeBron.

That and the fact that a family friend is a chef in Cleveland who works in some capacity for the Cavs (not exactly sure where he works, but he serves all of their players) and before he began the job he was given 3 rules that he had to follow or he would be fired immediately:
1) You must not look LeBron James in the eyes.
2) You must not talk to LeBron James unless he talks to you.
3) You must refer to LeBron James as "King James."

And yes, I am 100% dead serious about that.

[GGGG]

LeBron is playing under the weather in the Hawks series.  The buzzer sounds, LeBron takes about 4 steps towards walking off the court, and then he realizes, "Hey, people know I'm not feeling the best, I can really milk this thing."  All of a sudden he's going down on all fours as if he couldn't possibly take another step even if he had to.  It's hard for me to respect that when his teammate breaks his kneecap and tries his best to run back on defense before trying to hide his limp until he is out of site of the fans, at which point you clearly see Irving was much more injured than what he let people see.  If that was LeBron who broke his knee cap is there any doubt he would've remained on the ground until he was carried off the court?  Kyrie is a warrior.  LeBron leans into defenders to get calls.  It's the difference in mentality that I don't like about LeBron.

Uh...on the bolded part?  Every player does that.  Is that seriously a complaint?

[wadesworld]

Uh...on the bolded part?  Every player does that.  Is that seriously a complaint?

Not when the defender is so far to the opposite side of the hoop that he not only has to lean but when that doesn't reach he throws his elbow out and then his momentum is going so far off to the opposite direction of the basket that he has to regather himself just to be able to attempt a shot that can go towards the hoop. Guess I should hate he refs for that one.

[GGGG]

Not when the defender is so far to the opposite side of the hoop that he not only has to lean but when that doesn't reach he throws his elbow out and then his momentum is going so far off to the opposite direction of the basket that he has to regather himself just to be able to attempt a shot that can go towards the hoop. Guess I should hate he refs for that one.

Yes.  Because he is hardly the first, or only, player to do this.

[JWags85]

Yes.  Because he is hardly the first, or only, player to do this.

Very true.  However, the vast majority of those other players are not 6'9 260 nor predicate their penetration game on putting their head down and bulldozing through smaller players.

[brandx]

I think you should be careful about making statements like that. 

You're probably right, Sultan.

But we know about MJ and Kobe. Lebron has been in the league for 12 years and there have been no stories like those about MJ and Kobe.

[GGGG]

Very true.  However, the vast majority of those other players are not 6'9 260 nor predicate their penetration game on putting their head down and bulldozing through smaller players.

So its his fault that he gets calls from referees in these situations?