Optimistic About Wojo

[connie]

Sorry Doc., I can't agree with your take on this.  I remember some God-awful basketball under Dukiet and some years of recruiting by Dean that were much more frustrating, albiet because of his satisfaction.  I can't hang the lack of body development for Luke or Duane on Wojo.  They had plenty of time last year to bulk up.  They just aren't those body types.  I can't fault Wojo for recruits bolting for Buzz or even going somewhere else when he leaves.  Those that left after he was here maybe, but even then I think he gets at least a partial pass because he was an unknown to the players.  There was a reason that he held back on filling every available scollie he had just to fill out the team, and I would like to hear him explain his thinking on that before judging.  You make a good point about our early season defense being a joke, and while we can complain that should have been dealt with before the season started it was dealt with shortly into the season, and it does continue to evolve.  I have to believe there is a plan in place that has more than a one year outlook.  Nothing else matches what we have seen from Wojo so far.  If so, I think we have to give that plan a few years to develop.  If it doesn't work, we move on.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Dr. not to merge other threads, but I think your hanging on to this weakens your argument.  Bucky isn't going to go after Stone.  MU chose to move on from Stone and I commend Wojo and the admin for doing so.  Taking Stone is actually the lazy way out.  There are reasons to move on that aren't apparent to the lay person....if they chose to bring Stone in, everyone goes insane at how good a recruiter Wojo is, plus he is an obvious talent....so they had all the incentive to bring him in and didn't.  It's not a bad thing.

One other thing, the gaps on this roster are a function of Buzz Williams not Wojo, full stop.  Two of the recruits followed Buzz to VPI and the third went to a top 5 program where he is getting good minutes while MU is real building....how does any of that go on Wojo?  Mayo is gone, but thats almost entirely because he shouldn't have been here in the first place.  Even with Buzz staying and his full recruiting class there were gaps in the roster that we would have been hard pressed to fill.

It is a long game here.  Again if we make the sweet 16 next year and the elite 8 the following year, we'll all look back and laugh at this.  We are on the right path IMO

Could a condition of Henry's recruitment have been moving on from Stone?

[willie warrior]

The Big East is SOOOO much better than the independent and MCC (Horizon League) schedules played by those Dukiet / early O'Neill teams.  That 1987-88 team lost to the likes of Cleveland State (at home), Iona, Fordham, Evansville, Virginia Tech (at home) and Valparaiso.

And IMO the "young talent" on this year's team FAR surpasses what was on that 1987-88 team.  (Not to mention that Henry Ellenson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gerald Posey)

Sorry--I was saying that this year's team and its record is reminiscent of the Dukiet era. Not what we have coming in next year. What was the record under Dukiet? I recall one year where we only won 9 or 10 games. And that is a no brainer that Ellenson>than Posey.

[muwarrior69]

How does everyone feel about Butler?

1. Three years ago they finished tied for 3rd in the Horizon League
2. A year and a half ago they lost the best coach they have ever had
3. They lost their coach again before this season (possible upgrade to the new guy)
4. Their 2013/2014 recruiting rankings were 6th and 7th in the Big East.

And yet they sit 2nd in the Big East this season.  Is it just coaching? Are their players just better and were diamonds in the rough?  I think Marquette's future is brighter, just trying to figure out how they basically have the exact opposite record as us in the Big East.

Yeah! I just don't get it. Once Wojo gets his type of players perhaps we will be back on track.

[mu03eng]

Could a condition of Henry's recruitment have been moving on from Stone?

No

[WarhawkWarrior]

Yep, we are in a very delicate and important transition point.  The team sucks, we all hope our coach is good, fans are nervous, administration is new, students are inconsistent in support, we are relying too heavily on unenrolled recruits, ....  Other than that I have a lot of confidence in our future state.  However, once a fan, always a fan.  Sorry, kind of Murfish.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Dr. not to merge other threads, but I think your hanging on to this weakens your argument.  Bucky isn't going to go after Stone.  MU chose to move on from Stone and I commend Wojo and the admin for doing so.  Taking Stone is actually the lazy way out.  There are reasons to move on that aren't apparent to the lay person....if they chose to bring Stone in, everyone goes insane at how good a recruiter Wojo is, plus he is an obvious talent....so they had all the incentive to bring him in and didn't.  It's not a bad thing.

One other thing, the gaps on this roster are a function of Buzz Williams not Wojo, full stop.  Two of the recruits followed Buzz to VPI and the third went to a top 5 program where he is getting good minutes while MU is real building....how does any of that go on Wojo?  Mayo is gone, but thats almost entirely because he shouldn't have been here in the first place.  Even with Buzz staying and his full recruiting class there were gaps in the roster that we would have been hard pressed to fill.

It is a long game here.  Again if we make the sweet 16 next year and the elite 8 the following year, we'll all look back and laugh at this.  We are on the right path IMO

"Bucky isn't going after Stone?"  Huh? He may not end up there but not sure what you mean by that.

As to Stone, I am glad MU is in such a strong position to not go after the #4 player in the country, even perceptually. Even if you are not going to sign him, why wouldn't you want to be mentioned with him? It infinitely helps your other recruiting, especially when your geographic rival is the leader. Also can he afford to alienate SE Wisconsin? I doubt any team in the BE would take that same approach of passing on a Top 5 player.

I guess high expectations are not to be expected in the near term? Just don't agree at all as it is a slippery slope. I hope to be found wrong in five years. Like Duane, Sandy and Luke as a base, but he needs to see the urgency of nailing this Spring class after the great Fall class. Recruiting momentum slips fast.

As to blame for this year, he is the coach. It is part of the job, and he should have done his homework from Day 1. He made the void in his team bigger by four points on his watch. On the plus side, he grabbed Carlino's and Wally. That isn't all on Buzz--in fact he had a great class coming in--nor is Wojo completely blameless is all I am saying.

Look, the point of my post is that there are good and bad within the program. God couldn't have done a perfect job. It takes any one about nine months to learn a new job realistically. Wojo has never lost this much in his life. Heck, I haven't seen MU lose like this in my life as I mentioned in another thread that MU hasn't lost four in a row at home in 51 years. Folks shouldn't expect a turn around job by Wojo like a KO...he is a program builder. It will take five years. Time to start Saturday in "The Battle for the Basement".

[ChicosBailBonds]

Don't know about handily. But you would agree that this is reminiscent of Dukiet years?

No.  The talent levels and the level of competition are nowhere close.  Not even in the same planet.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Doc, losing 4 at home is subjective in the sense you have to consider who they lost to.  Two of them are quality teams and both went to overtime.  I don't know, I just can't see how someone that has been following this team as long as you have can have amnesia from 1987 to 1991.  Dukiet and KO's first teams were God awful.  Epic bad.  Historic bad.  Against competition that this current team would wipe the floor with. 

It actually matters who you are playing when factoring in who you are beating and\or losing to.

[keefe]

I'm very optimistic about Wojo, and I predict someone surfaces this thread 5 years from now and we all have a good chuckle about what morons we all were.

There are definitely things you can fault in Wojo's first year, but I think in total there are far more positives than negatives.  My list:

-Can admit when he is wrong (Sandy/DePaul)
-Can alter his preferred style (going to zone, etc)
-Has the team engaged despite the results to date
-Learns (professional T in X game, etc)
-Coaches to win, not lose
-Can recruit
-Can engage media and handle MU PR with class

I'm probably forgetting a few things.  Respect the process.

-Flushes own toilet

[Dr. Blackheart]

Doc, losing 4 at home is subjective in the sense you have to consider who they lost to.  Two of them are quality teams and both went to overtime.  I don't know, I just can't see how someone that has been following this team as long as you have can have amnesia from 1987 to 1991.  Dukiet and KO's first teams were God awful.  Epic bad.  Historic bad.  Against competition that this current team would wipe the floor with. 

It actually matters who you are playing when factoring in who you are beating and\or losing to.

This hasn't happened in 51 years...have a pretty good chance, per Pomeroy, of hitting seven straight. Not even the Piano Man was that off key.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=46470.msg698118#msg698118

[ChicosBailBonds]

This hasn't happened in 51 years...have a pretty good chance, per Pomeroy, of hitting seven straight. Not even the Piano Man was that off key.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=46470.msg698118#msg698118

Piano man was taking on Loyola of Chicago, Stetson, Northeastern, and the like.   Totally different world. 

[tower912]

Dukiet was 10-18 playing what we now consider cupcakes. 

[MU82]

Doc, losing 4 at home is subjective in the sense you have to consider who they lost to.  Two of them are quality teams and both went to overtime.  I don't know, I just can't see how someone that has been following this team as long as you have can have amnesia from 1987 to 1991.  Dukiet and KO's first teams were God awful.  Epic bad.  Historic bad.  Against competition that this current team would wipe the floor with. 

It actually matters who you are playing when factoring in who you are beating and\or losing to.

This is a wonderful point.

Perspective matters, people!

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

No.  The talent levels and the level of competition are nowhere close.  Not even in the same planet.

In the Dukiet years we would not have beaten Georgia Tech, Tennessee & Arizona State in the same season.

[NersEllenson]

In the Dukiet years we would not have beaten Georgia Tech, Tennessee & Arizona State started a season with 8 Top 100 players on the roster in the same season.

Just another matter of perspective to be considered...

Dukiet was awful, nobody denies that.  He didn't walk into the situation Wojo walked into.  Not even close.  Big East, The Al, Coming off 11 NCAA appearances in 12 years, 3 Sweet 16s in the 3 of the 4 years prior to taking the job, blah, blah, blah.

[willie warrior]

Piano man was taking on Loyola of Chicago, Stetson, Northeastern, and the like.   Totally different world. 

But wait.....that team also played Tennessee, Wisconsin, Northwestern, Minnesota, DePaul twice, Notre Dame twice, Dayton twice, Creighton, Wake Forest, Miami (Fla.), Xavier, and KState.

So please, totally different world? What about us this year: Wisc. Luth. (exhibition), Tn. Martin, Omaha, NJIT, Alabama A&M, North Dakota and Morgan State?

Point being the competitiveness was also there in 1987-88 as today. And that 87-88 team had some good players: Tony Smith, Trevor Powell, Pat Foley, Pops Sims, Tony Reeder, and Anglavar.
But why let facts get in the way of opinion.

Dukiet was a bad coach, but the team had a competitive schedule, with cupcakes just like this year and some good players.

And it appears that records may end up similar. Different eras--yes.

[willie warrior]

Dukiet was 10-18 playing what we now consider cupcakes. 

Yes, Tennessee, Xavier, Wisconsin, DePaul twice, Notre Dame twice, Northwestern, Minnesota, KSate, Miami (Fla.) Dayton twice, Creighton, are all considered cupcakes today. Please!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Just another matter of perspective to be considered...

Dukiet was awful, nobody denies that.  He didn't walk into the situation Wojo walked into.  Not even close.  Big East, The Al, Coming off 11 NCAA appearances in 12 years, 3 Sweet 16s in the 3 of the 4 years prior to taking the job, blah, blah, blah.

You keep saying there were 8 top 100 players on our roster. There were 7. Two of whom had never played a minute of D1 basketball (Duane, Sandy), 2 of whom who had been busts for 2+ years (Juan, Steve), one of whom wasn't available to December (Luke), one of whom was playing out of position and lost his mother (Deonte), and one of whom struggled mightily last season (JjJ). Carlino, Derrick, Dawson, Mayo, and Wally were not top 100 players.

But I get it, recruiting rankings matter after you've been in the program for over a year. That's why every Big East coach says when preparing his players to play Marquette "Look out for Jajuan Johnson, he's their best player, he was ranked 32nd coming out of high school! Don't let his stats from the last two seasons fool you!" 

Also not sure why any of the rest matters. All the things you listed are things that give him an advantage on the recruiting trail. None of that can help him win this season. If anything, they work against him winning this season because the competition is so high!

You are right that Wojo walked into a better situation overall than Dukiet did. But Wojo walked into a tougher situation for winning his first season. If Dukiet played our schedule this season he would be 2-22

[GGGG]

Willie, how good were the teams you mentioned?  I didn't bring them up because I had no idea.  

[NersEllenson]

You keep saying there were 8 top 100 players on our roster. There were 7. Two of whom had never played a minute of D1 basketball (Duane, Sandy), 2 of whom who had been busts for 2+ years (Juan, Steve), one of whom wasn't available to December (Luke), one of whom was playing out of position and lost his mother (Deonte), and one of whom struggled mightily last season (JjJ). Carlino, Derrick, Dawson, Mayo, and Wally were not top 100 players.

But I get it, recruiting rankings matter after you've been in the program for over a year. That's why every Big East coach says when preparing his players to play Marquette "Look out for Jajuan Johnson, he's their best player, he was ranked 32nd coming out of high school! Don't let his stats from the last two seasons fool you!" 

Also not sure why any of the rest matters. All the things you listed are things that give him an advantage on the recruiting trail. None of that can help him win this season. If anything, they work against him winning this season because the competition is so high!

You are right that Wojo walked into a better situation overall than Dukiet did. But Wojo walked into a tougher situation for winning his first season. If Dukiet played our schedule this season he would be 2-22

Excuses are only good for the person who makes them.  They don't do me any good.

It's incredible to me to read the length you go to, to paint such a bleak picture of what Wojo walked into.  Duane, JJJ, Burton and Luke are all Top 60 recruits - and all should be solid players by sophomore year.  It's on Wojo to coach that development, as the talent is there.  Wojo started right playing JJJ 30+ but then he got all wishy washy with JJJ's playing time.  Never maxed Burton's minutes.  There were talented resources on hand and Wojo ultimately hasn't and didn't deploy them efficiently/effectively.  And, it is reflected in our record.

Would have been much better served to pull a Tom Crean in the year of the Big Three and just roll with Duane, JJJ and Burton right from the start 26+ minutes per game.  I don't care if JJJ/Burton struggle with "Wojo's Way" or whatever, those guys are/were the 3 most talented guys on your roster (along with Carlino) and the future of the program.  Carlino has been good as a basketball player this year, yet in terms of the big picture - I feel his one year rental took valuable minutes away from JJJ.

This whole 5 year play Wojo spoke of would have been better served developing the existing assets within the program, rather than losing 2 of them, and limiting a 3rd to bizarre playing time inconsistency. 

[Spotcheck Billy]

Yes, Tennessee, Xavier, Wisconsin, DePaul twice, Notre Dame twice, Northwestern, Minnesota, KSate, Miami (Fla.) Dayton twice, Creighton, are all considered cupcakes today. Please!

the ones crossed out were all cupcakes in 1987-88 (none of them made the NCAA tourney)

[Lennys Tap]

Willie, how good were the teams you mentioned?  I didn't bring them up because I had no idea.  

In 1987-88 (Dukiet and MU's worst in 50+ years) we were 10-18. We were 9-7 at home, 1-11 on the road, and 1-6 vs NCAA tournament teams. We had 3 wins against what I would call "cupcakes" (Canisius, Hartford and at Stetson). Other wins were against Xavier (26-4, NCAA), Northwestern, Miami, Fl, Wake Forest, Dayton, Air Force and Western Michigan.

This year we are 11-13, 8-6 at home, 2-1 (N) and 1-6 on the road. Based on current bracketology, we are 1-9 against NCAA tournament teams. We have 5 wins (Tenn. Martin, NJIT, Alabama A+M, North Dakota and Morgan State) and 1 loss (Omaha) against cupcakes, Other wins are against Georgia Tech, Tennessee, Arizona St, Providence, Creighton and at Seton Hall.

Summary: This year's team has a slightly better record and has played more top flight teams. They also played more cupcakes and 17/24 of their games on home or neutral courts (16/28 in 87-88).

Looking at it in context I'd say this year's team is, right now, a little better - but they're leaking oil. I don't expect them to lose out but if they do it's a coin flip.

[Lennys Tap]

the ones not crossed out were all cupcakes in 1987-88 (none of them made the NCAA tourney)

Cupcakes are Tennessee Martin, NJIT, Alabama A+M, North Dakota, Morgan St and Omaha - they're not teams who don't make the NCAA tournament.

[willie warrior]

the ones not crossed out were all cupcakes in 1987-88 (none of them made the NCAA tourney)

Really--the definition of a cupcake is you don't make the tournament. Then we are a huge cupcake. LMAO. There are many teams that did not make the tournament that are not cupcakes. Please go back and take remedial basketball again.