Milwaukee Approves Streetcar. Connect it to Bradley Center 2.0?

[NavinRJohnson]

Yes, but if your logic is correct, how/why are all of these other places continuing to maintain their street cars and trains?

They were just lucky to build them a long time ago?

In 50 years, is milwaukee going to be wishing it had a built a rail system years before?

By these other places, you mean, NY, Chicago, SF, LA, Boston, Miami...?

We also need to distinguish between street car and commuter rail. The milwaukee metro area doesn't even approach 2million people, and cannot support either one. It frankly doesn't have enough butts to justify the expense, and support the ongoing operational costs. As others have pointed out, the Hiawatha line has full seats, but Amtrak takes a bath on every run. That money has to come from somewhere.

IMO, in a relatively small city like Milwaukee, money is much better spent on freeway expansion. It costs much lest, and is more useful...and beyond that, it's going to need to be maintained and expanded anyway. There simply is not enough money to do both.

[Benny B]

The KRM line...much like the street car, a solution in search of a problem. If it were free, go for it. Why not? Of course it wasn't free. In fact it was extremely expensive and would only have gotten worse. When you break these things down to a per rider basis, they become impossible to justify (in the case of the milwaukee area projects that have been proposed/approved).

KRM and the streetcar were nothing alike except for the fact they proposed poor execution of an otherwise good idea.  The streetcar is intra-city transit, whereas something like KRM wouldn't have just inter-city transit, but inter-metro transit.  If you extended Metra to Milwaukee, it would provide significant populations of people with greater access to employment, entertainment, recreation and education on both sides of the border.  If you're an employer, mass-transit between Milwaukee and Chicago could at least double your employee pool.

Live in Oak Creek and want to take a job at Abbott or Pactiv?
Live in D/T Milwaukee and want to study medicine at Rosalind Franklin?
Live in Racine and want to catch a performance at Ravinia?
Live in Kenosha and want to teach part-time at Marquette/UWM/MSOE and Northwestern/Loyola/DePaul?
Own a business in Milwaukee or Racine and want to attract potential employees from Illinois?
Want to work for a few hours at NML on a Friday morning, grab an early lunch & couple of beers, then hop on the train with a few buddies to catch the Brewers at Wrigley?

Sure, some people could do some of the above in a car, but provide an alternate transportation solution, and those numbers who would rise exponentially.

That said, KRM wasn't the answer, though it was closer than any other transit option that's been proposed.  People will tolerate as much as a 60-75 minute commute on a train, but they won't tolerate 30 mins on a train, 10 minutes on a platform, and 35 minutes on another train.

We already have commuter rail from Chicago to Milwaukee, that's not close to what was approved yesterday.

True... but that's different from commuter rail between Chicago and Milwaukee.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

That said, KRM wasn't the answer, though it was closer than any other transit option that's been proposed.  People will tolerate as much as a 60-75 minute commute on a train, but they won't tolerate 30 mins on a train, 10 minutes on a platform, and 35 minutes on another train.

My neighbor commuted to NYC for 15 years.  It was a 90 minute train ride one way.  He's not alone. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

It's not too often that Chicos imparts wisdom upon us, so let's just end it right there and call it a day.


Could it work in Milwaukee, absolutely.  Would it work in Milwaukee, probably not.

I impart it every day, ignore that wisdom to your own detriment.   

[Badgerhater]

My neighbor commuted to NYC for 15 years.  It was a 90 minute train ride one way.  He's not alone. 

I live in Jefferson County, WI, and it's a 50-minute commute to my job in the Milwaukee metro.  Half of my drive is in farm country and the rest avoids all freeway gridlock.  Until commuting is no longer that easy for the distance involved, Milwaukee metro cannot support a commuter rail system.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

By these other places, you mean, NY, Chicago, SF, LA, Boston, Miami...?

We also need to distinguish between street car and commuter rail. The milwaukee metro area doesn't even approach 2million people, and cannot support either one. It frankly doesn't have enough butts to justify the expense, and support the ongoing operational costs. As others have pointed out, the Hiawatha line has full seats, but Amtrak takes a bath on every run. That money has to come from somewhere.

IMO, in a relatively small city like Milwaukee, money is much better spent on freeway expansion. It costs much lest, and is more useful...and beyond that, it's going to need to be maintained and expanded anyway. There simply is not enough money to do both.

Well, I'm talking street car specifically. The commuter train issue is a whole different bag of doughnuts, and with auto-driving vehicles coming, investing in a large scale commuter line might not be worthwhile. (not to mention lack of population). Light rail like MN might be interesting. Maybe connect the city neighborhoods and inner ring suburbs?

Anyways, I'd have to look at SF's population was when they installed the street cars. If it was the same as Milwaukee now, would that change anything, or are we all just going to say "It was a different era!" or still say it costs too much?

I guess, I'm just looking 20/30/40/50 years into the future. Are we going to be glad that Milwaukee had some forethought and installed rail infrastructure? or is this going to be seen as a boondoggle?

In theory is there a magic population # that we have to reach where we would all be in favor of a street car?

[Eldon]

Well, I'm talking street car specifically. The commuter train issue is a whole different bag of doughnuts, and with auto-driving vehicles coming, investing in a large scale commuter line might not be worthwhile. (not to mention lack of population). Light rail like MN might be interesting. Maybe connect the city neighborhoods and inner ring suburbs?

Anyways, I'd have to look at SF's population was when they installed the street cars. If it was the same as Milwaukee now, would that change anything, or are we all just going to say "It was a different era!" or still say it costs too much?

I guess, I'm just looking 20/30/40/50 years into the future. Are we going to be glad that Milwaukee had some forethought and installed rail infrastructure? or is this going to be seen as a boondoggle?

In theory is there a magic population # that we have to reach where we would all be in favor of a street car?

In 40-50 years, ogden and the east side may be ghost towns (thats where the streetcar is supposed to start/end). That's one nice thing about buses. They can move in accordance with where the population moves.

[jficke13]

In 40-50 years, ogden and the east side may be ghost towns (thats where the streetcar is supposed to start/end). That's one nice thing about buses. They can move in accordance with where the population moves.

I live on the East Side right now, and I'm not looking forward to the expansion if it takes away parking/driving lanes only to put fixed-path bus on the roads that also has to stop at stoplights. I imagine it has to or else they'd have to build it as a subway or an el right?

[Benny B]

I live in Jefferson County, WI, and it's a 50-minute commute to my job in the Milwaukee metro.  Half of my drive is in farm country and the rest avoids all freeway gridlock.  Until commuting is no longer that easy for the distance involved, Milwaukee metro cannot support a commuter rail system.

I knew it wouldn't take long for the myopia to which I alluded to surface.

Ironically, isn't this why Gimbels was ultimately able to get a foothold in NYC... because Macy's executives were taking advice from their wives who in no manner resembled a cross-section of their average customer.

[Eldon]

Bus Rapid Transit.  Bogota, Colombia.  Now this...this has potential.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU6ImWY4IBc

Mods, for some reason it is not letting me embed the video.  I noticed that the syntax changed on the youtube site (been awhile since I tried to embed a video)

Anyway, I think the commuter rail extension to Milwaukee would seem to have some promise.  And I'm all for riding Chicago's coattails.  In fact, I would be very happy if they announced a study being done about the potential of a high speed rail line between Milwaukee to Chicago.  And I don't mean "high speed rail," i.e., 79 mph like that train to Madison.  I'm talking HIGH SPEED RAIL, i.e., the true high speed rail like the kind that France and Spain have.  You know, so folks in the Mil could get down to the Loop in 40 minutes or so.  Obviously I don't know the costs of this; but I do know that given the potential benefits, I would eagerly listen.

Guys, should we really get a streetcar just because Cincinnati and Portland have them?  Buuuuut daaaaad, Sacramento is getting one...Let me guess, you are the guys whose senior pic has you cheesin hard, sportin an AWESOME mullet and the stone-washed jean jacket to match.  

I'm well aware that transit stops can spur economic development, but it's certainly not the only way.

EDIT:  In case you're wondering, yes, I do work for MCTS.

[🏀]

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/cU6ImWY4IBc" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/cU6ImWY4IBc</a>

[Benny B]

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/cU6ImWY4IBc" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/cU6ImWY4IBc</a>

@1:17...you would think that in a story about Bogota, they would have interviewed the Colombian Tovar.

[🏀]

@1:17...you would think that in a story about Bogota, they would have interviewed the Colombian Tovar.

+1

[Eldon]

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/cU6ImWY4IBc" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/cU6ImWY4IBc</a>

Thanks man.  And the code is there for posterity.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

In 40-50 years, ogden and the east side may be ghost towns (thats where the streetcar is supposed to start/end). That's one nice thing about buses. They can move in accordance with where the population moves.

Ya, but with that line of thinking, why do any infrastructure work in the city? If we don't know where everybody is going to live in 50 years, let's not build bridges, roads and sewers that last. Let's just use band aids, it's cheaper.

Neighborhoods shift and change, but we know Milwaukee is going to be the major city in WI from here to eternity. Real estate near water is always going to be in demand, so it's likely that the eastside, downtown and even the third ward aren't magically disappear.

Now, I'm not saying the street car is magic, or that Milwaukee should automatically do it. But, I am saying that this might be one of those infrastructure costs that isn't fully realized until we have retrospect.

I'm sure some people were against he federal highway system too, but that seems to have worked out pretty well.

Sometimes we have to pay for future needs, and hopefully our politicians and city planners are smart enough to make the right decisions (not sure that they are, but that's a whole different convo).

[ChicosBailBonds]

I knew it wouldn't take long for the myopia to which I alluded to surface.

Ironically, isn't this why Gimbels was ultimately able to get a foothold in NYC... because Macy's executives were taking advice from their wives who in no manner resembled a cross-section of their average customer.

Then again, Gimbels is gone and Macy's still exists.   

[ChicosBailBonds]

Ya, but with that line of thinking, why do any infrastructure work in the city? If we don't know where everybody is going to live in 50 years, let's not build bridges, roads and sewers that last. Let's just use band aids, it's cheaper.

Neighborhoods shift and change, but we know Milwaukee is going to be the major city in WI from here to eternity. Real estate near water is always going to be in demand, so it's likely that the eastside, downtown and even the third ward aren't magically disappear.

Now, I'm not saying the street car is magic, or that Milwaukee should automatically do it. But, I am saying that this might be one of those infrastructure costs that isn't fully realized until we have retrospect.

I'm sure some people were against he federal highway system too, but that seems to have worked out pretty well.

Sometimes we have to pay for future needs, and hopefully our politicians and city planners are smart enough to make the right decisions (not sure that they are, but that's a whole different convo).

Why do you believe this to be the case?  I spent many years in Ohio, where Cleveland was once the largest city.  Columbus is now.  In Texas, the growth of Austin and San Antonio in the last 30 years has been explosive.  You just never know.

I don't believe I'm reading anyone saying don't do infrastructure improvements, or expand infrastructure options.  The issues at hand are what should be done, WHY it should be done, who benefits, etc.  There seems to be a love affair with choo choos in this country by some ideologues and for the life of me I'd like to know why?  It's a serious question.  They are great in some parts of the country, but I feel like they have become a plank position and a one size fits all answer.   They are expensive as hell to build, more dollars to operate, they lose money because of the ridership, in many places they have made very little to no impact on traffic (depending on the study).  So what is the fascination?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Auto-driving vehicles...if they are adopted at the rate of electric cars, we won't see them to any important degree for decades.  The idea of GM devising an auto-driving car and putting people's lives in their hands is terrifying.   

[WellsstreetWanderer]

Don't forget that they will have to hire unionized drivers and mechanics. That's always part of the equation

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Why do you believe this to be the case?  I spent many years in Ohio, where Cleveland was once the largest city.  Columbus is now.  In Texas, the growth of Austin and San Antonio in the last 30 years has been explosive.  You just never know.

I don't believe I'm reading anyone saying don't do infrastructure improvements, or expand infrastructure options.  The issues at hand are what should be done, WHY it should be done, who benefits, etc.  There seems to be a love affair with choo choos in this country by some ideologues and for the life of me I'd like to know why?  It's a serious question.  They are great in some parts of the country, but I feel like they have become a plank position and a one size fits all answer.   They are expensive as hell to build, more dollars to operate, they lose money because of the ridership, in many places they have made very little to no impact on traffic (depending on the study).  So what is the fascination?

I do believe that Milwaukee will remain the largest city in WI. Call me crazy.

Now, as far as trains and their value, truthfully, I'm not an expert on the subject, and I don't have enough knowledge to say that it is 100% going to work in Milwaukee. I don't know. That's my honest answer.

BUT, it seems like you're pushing back pretty hard based upon a political viewpoint, not a factual examination of Milwaukee's current needs and potential growth structure. Maybe you have done a ton of research, I don't know... but you seem to keep throwing up political objections, not objections based upon the actual idea and it's potential for Milwaukee down the road.

And just to be clear, I don't think a street car is a magic bullet for Milwaukee, but I also see other major cities that had the foresight to install mass transit options. You couldn't afford to build subways in NYC now, so thank god they did it a long time ago.

Maybe Milwaukee needs to bite the bullet and start some new infrastructure planning now so they can reap the benefits down the road?

[jficke13]

I do believe that Milwaukee will remain the largest city in WI. Call me crazy.

Now, as far as trains and their value, truthfully, I'm not an expert on the subject, and I don't have enough knowledge to say that it is 100% going to work in Milwaukee. I don't know. That's my honest answer.

BUT, it seems like you're pushing back pretty hard based upon a political viewpoint, not a factual examination of Milwaukee's current needs and potential growth structure. Maybe you have done a ton of research, I don't know... but you seem to keep throwing up political objections, not objections based upon the actual idea and it's potential for Milwaukee down the road.

And just to be clear, I don't think a street car is a magic bullet for Milwaukee, but I also see other major cities that had the foresight to install mass transit options. You couldn't afford to build subways in NYC now, so thank god they did it a long time ago.

Maybe Milwaukee needs to bite the bullet and start some new infrastructure planning now so they can reap the benefits down the road?

Am I wrong in having reservations about calling the streetcar "mass transit" when it will have to stop at the same stoplights I have to stop at in my car?

[reinko]

Am I wrong in having reservations about calling the streetcar "mass transit" when it will have to stop at the same stoplights I have to stop at in my car?

Well it can carry 100+ people @ once, how many does Honda Accord fit? 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Am I wrong in having reservations about calling the streetcar "mass transit" when it will have to stop at the same stoplights I have to stop at in my car?

So do buses, and the Hiawatha stops several more times than my car between Milwaukee and Chicago.

I'm not sure that "It stops" is a deal-breaker in terms of public transit.

[jficke13]

If it behaves just like a bus... well you know the rest.

They want mass transit like the El. Maybe they should step up and propose something that might actually be an improvement on the current situation.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

If it behaves just like a bus... well you know the rest.

They want mass transit like the El. Maybe they should step up and propose something that might actually be an improvement on the current situation.

Well, I don't think there is enough demand to pay for a large scale mass-transit option like that.

But, a mid-scale train/street car might be a good option.