Milwaukee Approves Streetcar. Connect it to Bradley Center 2.0?

[ChicosBailBonds]

i wish they would allow a binding referendum-let the people who are paying for it decide-wow, what a novel idea.  what are the pols afraid of?  oh yeah, they know what's best for all of us cuz they are edumacated.  glad i don't live in milwaukee county.  yes i know there are fed funds(free money!!) going in to it, but the rest will have to be funded locally including the never ending maintenance and ongoing operation costs.  how much per ride will be subsidized?  don't know year to year until you find out how much it isn't used.  all the infrastructure that is going to have to be torn up and re-located, lost parking spaces...this is all wrong.  

We tried that here in California...then one judge said too bad to millions of voters.  Choo choo choo chooo

The system is so f'ing corrupt. 

[Groin_pull]

That's my concern as well.  I'm most familiar with the light rail in MSP, and it travels places that don't also include cars or buses.  That allows them to use longer trains, and go faster.  It's been a while, but I believe that is also the case in San Diego.

San Francisco is a unique animal.  The streetcars appear to be about the size they'd be using in Milwaukee, and they travel right down the middle of the street.  But SF has a very unique topography - the streetcars were built in the first place because the hills were too steep for other forms of mass transit.  Not the case in Milwaukee, where buses already get around those same streets just fine.

I love the use of trains for mass transit.  I always take the Tube when I'm in London, the Metro when I am in Paris or DC, the El when I'm in Chicago, and even the NY subway.  And even though I live an hour from MSP so I usually have my car with me, I have taken the light rail several times to avoid traffic hassles and get there faster than on a bus.  The problem I see with the proposed Milwaukee streetcar is that it won't be solving any mass transit "problems."

Actually, I wasn't referring to the streetcar and trolleys. Those are mostly for the tourists. I was referring to the MUNI trains that operate on several lines...a combo above-ground/underground map. Somewhat similar to BART, but strictly local.

[Spotcheck Billy]

i wish they would allow a binding referendum-let the people who are paying for it decide-wow, what a novel idea.  what are the pols afraid of?  oh yeah, they know what's best for all of us cuz they are edumacated.  glad i don't live in milwaukee county.  yes i know there are fed funds(free money!!) going in to it, but the rest will have to be funded locally including the never ending maintenance and ongoing operation costs.  how much per ride will be subsidized?  don't know year to year until you find out how much it isn't used.  all the infrastructure that is going to have to be torn up and re-located, lost parking spaces...this is all wrong. 

thankfully it is not MKE County, City of MKE only

[Groin_pull]

There's a strange dynamic that runs through Wisconsin. A weird attitude. Glad I got out years ago.

[jficke13]

There's a strange dynamic that runs through Wisconsin. A weird attitude. Glad I got out years ago.

How so?

[NavinRJohnson]

In this particular case, it's a solution in need of a problem. Of course the end goal of those pushing this is to expand it, because they know nobody will ride, and they can simply say, in order to attract more riders we need to expand it, but again, a street car? Just plain stupid. That expansion as planned, will exponentially increase the cost up front and ongoing, and still will be basically useless. On a per rider basis, It'd probably be cheaper to pay Uber fees for everyone who uses it, and I'm only half joking.

Running trains out to mequon, brookfield, etc., is a completely different discussion. There again however, the cost would be massive and extremely difficult to justify.

[keefe]

Ride the SLUT!!

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/20841428/#.VNsuKe90yM8

[rocket surgeon]

Ride the SLUT!!

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/20841428/#.VNsuKe90yM8

at least they're having a little fun with it until it becomes a fiscal nightmare.  there are many(no strawmen here) examples of these all over the nation-FAILING.  beautiful-another taxpayer money laundering scheme run out in broad day light-what a country??  hey, how is amtrak doing for us?? 

[Benny B]

at least they're having a little fun with it until it becomes a fiscal nightmare.  there are many(no strawmen here) examples of these all over the nation-FAILING.  beautiful-another taxpayer money laundering scheme run out in broad day light-what a country??  hey, how is amtrak doing for us?? 

The Hiawatha line continues to post record numbers.  But hey... let's kill the KRM line idea or anything that might extend Metra from Kenosha to Milwaukee because God forbid Wisconsin would ever want to ride the economic coattails of Chicago.

All this anti-transit rhetoric is a very dangerous thing.  So are the registered voters in SE Wisconsin.

[Hards Alumni]

How so?

Since I assume you live here, you have to at least acknowledge the ideological divide. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

The Hiawatha line continues to post record numbers.  But hey... let's kill the KRM line idea or anything that might extend Metra from Kenosha to Milwaukee because God forbid Wisconsin would ever want to ride the economic coattails of Chicago.

All this anti-transit rhetoric is a very dangerous thing.  So are the registered voters in SE Wisconsin.

There are areas where it is successful, and many areas where it is a giant failure. 

Light rail is brought out by one side as this panacea for so many things.  Does the cost justify it?

http://www.citylab.com/commute/2014/04/have-us-light-rail-systems-been-worth-investment/8838/

[Benny B]

Since I assume you live here, you have to at least acknowledge the ideological divide. 

Personally, I would have used the term "seemingly infinite gaping chasm" instead of "divide."

[Benny B]

There are areas where it is successful, and many areas where it is a giant failure. 

It's not too often that Chicos imparts wisdom upon us, so let's just end it right there and call it a day.


Could it work in Milwaukee, absolutely.  Would it work in Milwaukee, probably not.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

In this particular case, it's a solution in need of a problem. Of course the end goal of those pushing this is to expand it, because they know nobody will ride, and they can simply say, in order to attract more riders we need to expand it, but again, a street car? Just plain stupid. That expansion as planned, will exponentially increase the cost up front and ongoing, and still will be basically useless. On a per rider basis, It'd probably be cheaper to pay Uber fees for everyone who uses it, and I'm only half joking.

Running trains out to mequon, brookfield, etc., is a completely different discussion. There again however, the cost would be massive and extremely difficult to justify.

I don't think running trains out to outer ring suburbs is really needed (yet). There simply wouldn't be enough demand, and with auto-driving vehicles on the horizon (say next 25 years), I'm not sure if we need to come up with that type of infrastructure for commuters. 

As far as the street car, that's a tough one. I'm pretty fiscally conservative, but in this case I can see the value. It's infrastructure that most world class cities have, and it's never going to get cheaper to build than today. There isn't really a "good" time to pay for it. You either bite the bullet now and start it, or you continue to wait while the eventual costs only continue to rise.

Again, I'm not 100% on the street car, but I also can't just say "NO!" either. Progress and infrastructure are expensive, and the benefits aren't often realized immediately.

[NavinRJohnson]

The Hiawatha line continues to post record numbers.  But hey... let's kill the KRM line idea or anything that might extend Metra from Kenosha to Milwaukee because God forbid Wisconsin would ever want to ride the economic coattails of Chicago.

All this anti-transit rhetoric is a very dangerous thing.  So are the registered voters in SE Wisconsin.

The KRM line...much like the street car, a solution in search of a problem. If it were free, go for it. Why not? Of course it wasn't free. In fact it was extremely expensive and would only have gotten worse. When you break these things down to a per rider basis, they become impossible to justify (in the case of the milwaukee area projects that have been proposed/approved).

[hairy worthen]

There's a strange dynamic that runs through Wisconsin. A weird attitude. Glad I got out years ago.

us too

[MUfan12]

The problem with this project is that Barrett and the proponents didn't sell a larger vision from the start. I can see value in connecting neighborhoods, but a 2 mile circle... not so much.

[hairy worthen]

The Hiawatha line continues to post record numbers.  But hey... let's kill the KRM line idea or anything that might extend Metra from Kenosha to Milwaukee because God forbid Wisconsin would ever want to ride the economic coattails of Chicago.

All this anti-transit rhetoric is a very dangerous thing.  So are the registered voters in SE Wisconsin.

 You are comparing apples to oranges.

I am not anti-transit at all. Anti-expensive, under used, rail system, maybe. 

[NavinRJohnson]

As far as the street car, that's a tough one. I'm pretty fiscally conservative, but in this case I can see the value. It's infrastructure that most world class cities have, and it's never going to get cheaper to build than today. There isn't really a "good" time to pay for it. You either bite the bullet now and start it, or you continue to wait while the eventual costs only continue to rise.

But therein lies the problem, it's going to get more expensive to operate and the costs will continue to rise, whether built now or not. The upfront cost of building it is the smaller of the two issues. It serves very little purpose out of the gate,and the costs to operate are going to increase exponentially over time. That is why it's a bad idea. The benefits (whatever those are, I still don't know), simply do not justify the cost. I don't see any argument that positions this particular system as proposed as infrastructure. I simply don't see any economic development it is going to drive.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

But therein lies the problem, it's going to get more expensive to operate and the costs will continue to rise, whether built now or not. The upfront cost of building it is the smaller of the two issues. It serves very little purpose out of the gate,and the costs to operate are going to increase exponentially over time. That is why it's a bad idea. The benefits (whatever those are, I still don't know), simply do not justify the cost. I don't see any argument that positions this particular system as proposed as infrastructure. I simply don't see any economic development it is going to drive.

Yes, but if your logic is correct, how/why are all of these other places continuing to maintain their street cars and trains?

They were just lucky to build them a long time ago?

In 50 years, is milwaukee going to be wishing it had a built a rail system years before?

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

The Hiawatha line continues to post record numbers.  But hey... let's kill the KRM line idea or anything that might extend Metra from Kenosha to Milwaukee because God forbid Wisconsin would ever want to ride the economic coattails of Chicago.

All this anti-transit rhetoric is a very dangerous thing.  So are the registered voters in SE Wisconsin.

Amtrak does just fine here in the Northeast. 

I would think you'd want commuter rail in the Wisconsin connecting to Chicago.  They are expanding commuter rail out here from Springfield, MA straight down to New Haven, CT (with a stop at Hartford's Airport) simply to connect the corridor into New York City.  The New Haven train line into NYC is one of the busiest in the country.

[mu-rara]

I ride the Hiawatha to Chicago when it works with my schedule.  Cheaper than driving for 1 person, driving more economical for 2.  Evading Chicago rush hour is worth it.  

Problem is, Hiawatha is packed every morning yet it still loses money.  If they raised the price to break even, would ridership fall.

This streetcar sh*tshow is a financial failure for the City.  Feds will pump in operating costs for 18 months.  After that property tax payers in MKE are on the hook.  Glad I'm not one.

I only need to go into the city for Warrior games, and an occasional business meeting.  Lucky me.

[hairy worthen]

Amtrak does just fine here in the Northeast.  

I would think you'd want commuter rail in the Wisconsin connecting to Chicago.  They are expanding commuter rail out here from Springfield, MA straight down to New Haven, CT (with a stop at Hartford's Airport) simply to connect the corridor into New York City.  The New Haven train line into NYC is one of the busiest in the country.

We already have commuter rail from Chicago to Milwaukee, that's not close to what was approved yesterday.

 I agree with Eldon, take a bus, paint it a pretty color make it in the shape of a street car and promote the same route as the train. Much less expensive and practical.

[jficke13]

Since I assume you live here, you have to at least acknowledge the ideological divide. 

I live here. I was just trying to get a handle on exactly what part of our mentality he was referring to.

[hairy worthen]

Since I assume you live here, you have to at least acknowledge the ideological divide. 

Ideological divide is not exclusive to Wisconsin or Milwaukee. Ideological divide is much different than the words he used "Weird Attitude"