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Author Topic: Vaccinations  (Read 52318 times)

Coleman

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #125 on: February 06, 2015, 09:21:19 AM »
Should we do so if it triples the cost of energy and all consumer goods produced in the United States?

Probably.

But it likely wouldn't come to that. Innovation solves many issues.

MU Fan in Connecticut

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #126 on: February 06, 2015, 09:24:36 AM »
Should we do so if it triples the cost of energy and all consumer goods produced in the United States?

Industry said the exact same thing when chloroflorocarbons that were destroying the ozone layer were banned in the early 90s and the actual cost turned out to be only measly 10% of what was projected by industry.

jsglow

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #127 on: February 06, 2015, 09:31:24 AM »
I saw this article this morning.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/02/04/ben-franklin-lost-a-son-to-smallpox-heres-his-sobering-advice-to-parents-on-immunization/

Ben Franklin lost a son to smallpox. Here’s his sobering advice for parents worried about vaccines today.

Ben Franklin lost a 4-year-old son to smallpox. He wrote about the incident in his autobiography nearly a half-century later. His words are keenly relevant to the current national conversation about early childhood vaccines, and are worth a close read:

In 1736 I lost one of my sons, a fine boy of four years old, by the small-pox, taken in the common way. I long regretted bitterly, and still regret that I had not given it to him by inoculation. This I mention for the sake of parents who omit that operation, on the supposition that they should never forgive themselves if a child died under it; my example showing that the regret may be the same either way, and that, therefore, the safer should be chosen.

Many parents in the 1700s avoided inoculating their children for fear of harming them -- just as a minority of parents today refuse to vaccinate due to a drastic misunderstanding of the potential harms and benefits of a vaccination. Franklin ultimately regretted not inoculating his own son (he did so not out of fear of side effects, but because the boy was sick with another illness at the time).

The incident stuck with him so much that he went on to co-author a how-to guide on smallpox inoculation with a London physician.

As I wrote Tuesday, the incredible success of vaccine programs has afforded us the luxury of indulging in ill-informed skepticism of them. Some 250 years ago, the situation was very different.

(A hat tip to Amy Webb on Twitter).

Christopher Ingraham writes about politics, drug policy and all things data. He previously worked at the Brookings Institution and the Pew Research Center.

Thank you.

We've got an outbreak here in suburban Chicago.  All victims are babies too young to have yet received their shots.  But if the virus is 'floating' out in the community because hosts are available, all infants are now at risk.  I pray for their speedy recovery.

brandx

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #128 on: February 06, 2015, 11:24:13 AM »

Ben Franklin lost a son to smallpox. Here’s his sobering advice for parents worried about vaccines today.

Ben Franklin lost a 4-year-old son to smallpox. He wrote about the incident in his autobiography nearly a half-century later. His words are keenly relevant to the current national conversation about early childhood vaccines, and are worth a close read:

In 1736 I lost one of my sons, a fine boy of four years old, by the small-pox, taken in the common way. I long regretted bitterly, and still regret that I had not given it to him by inoculation. This I mention for the sake of parents who omit that operation, on the supposition that they should never forgive themselves if a child died under it; my example showing that the regret may be the same either way, and that, therefore, the safer should be chosen.

Many parents in the 1700s avoided inoculating their children for fear of harming them -- just as a minority of parents today refuse to vaccinate due to a drastic misunderstanding of the potential harms and benefits of a vaccination. Franklin ultimately regretted not inoculating his own son (he did so not out of fear of side effects, but because the boy was sick with another illness at the time).

The incident stuck with him so much that he went on to co-author a how-to guide on smallpox inoculation with a London physician.


Your mixing vaccination and inoculation. Ben could have inoculated his son against smallpox - fairly effective - but if he had wanted to vaccinate him, he would have had to invent the vaccine first. Vaccines did not exist at the time.

jesmu84

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #129 on: February 06, 2015, 12:06:22 PM »
We also know we are in a 19 year pause right now.....climate is so complex....there are so many things we don't know....many more that we don't know then we do.  That's the scary part for both outcomes.  Meaning, it could get really bad, or it could be nothing at all and things revert.  What's the role of the Sun?  What's the role of the oceans?  How much is man at fault?  What about all the farting cows.  So on and so forth.

I'm a huge climate change guy.  But I agree with you. And, it appears we all agree that we don't know enough about the situation to come up with metrics and measured solutions. So, in light of throwing money at the wall and hoping the solution works (even though we wouldn't have measured results), can we agree to increase funding for studying the situation (the variables, etc)?

Benny B

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #130 on: February 06, 2015, 12:28:53 PM »
Probably.

But it likely wouldn't come to that. Innovation solves many issues.

Exactly... if costs go higher due to greater environmental regulations, the market will react the same way it has for decades....just lay off a bunch of people and replace them with much cheaper robots.  Problem solved.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

keefe

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #131 on: February 06, 2015, 12:49:05 PM »
Your mixing vaccination and inoculation. Ben could have inoculated his son against smallpox - fairly effective - but if he had wanted to vaccinate him, he would have had to invent the vaccine first. Vaccines did not exist at the time.

One of the most poignant scenes in the Adams series was when John and John Jr were abroad and a small pox epidemic was sweeping through New England. Abigail Adams had the doctor come by with a cart of dead bodies to have her family inoculated. Brutally ineffective compared with today's vaccines but the only possible prescriptive for deadly viral contagions.

Imagine the strength Abigail needed to make that decision, alone, in order to save her children. People today have no idea how horrible are these contagions. Idiots who fail to vaccinate put large holes in the herd immunity that enable viruses to propagate.

For those who have not seen it, I highly recommend the HBO series on John Adams. We are blessed to have had such men define the concept of America. Today's politicians would do well to study the works of Adams, Jefferson, and Madison.       


Death on call

jficke13

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #132 on: February 06, 2015, 12:59:36 PM »
Exactly... if costs go higher due to greater environmental regulations, the market will react the same way it has for decades....just lay off a bunch of people and replace them with much cheaper robots.  Problem solved.

I for one welcome our new robot overlords.

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #133 on: February 06, 2015, 01:00:53 PM »
Of course, but that is always going to be the case.  That's why you have a budget, routine maintenance, etc, to fix those roads.

That is NOT the case with climate change, nor is the cost \ harm on the same level.  We KNOW the bridges need to be fixed as we can see the damage AND we can see what new concrete, or paving, or steel can do.    This is where you analogy falls short.  We have NO IDEA how much money on climate change "fixes" will it take, nor do we even know if it will even work.  PLUS, because the climate always changes and for millions of years has gone into cycles of warming and cooling (there's a reason why Greenland is called Greenland), we don't know if 50 years from now or 10,000 years from now things reverse.  We just don't know.

That's the question.   How many trillions do we want to spend and what do we get out of it?  Especially in a world where not everyone is playing by the same rules.  China "says" they will lower their emissions.....oh, but they have to wait for 20 years before they start....just trust them.  

So I ask, we are going to spend all of this money, etc, and what are we getting for it?  I think it's a fair question.  Shouldn't someone be able to say that by doing all of this we believe we will lower C02 by X and temperature by Y?  No one is willing to put any metrics behind it, but we should just spend away and just trust the process.   No wonder so many people are skeptical.  Where's the accountability?

You're putting up hurdles before we even know what they are.

Also, China does a lot of dumb sh*t, but that doesn't mean the US should just go along for the ride.

Climate change is real. Boom. Truth. Is it all because of humans? Likely not. Too many variables. Do human contribute? Likely yes. Okay, settled. Fine.

So what do we do? Well, throwing up our hands because we don't have a youtube video or IKEA instructions on how to fix the problem is silly.

We need to start at square one: Human behavior. Can we all understand how we make an impact. How can we minimize it day to day?

After that, let's look at industries and see if the private sector can innovate. Maybe some cooperation with governments and public funding.

After that, let's use some social, global and economic pressures with our trade partners, so they get their sh*t together as well.

After that, let's see if we can find another planet to move to, or at least steal their air with a gigantic spaceship that turns into a maid with a vacuum.  

Not that tough, guys.

mu03eng

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #134 on: February 06, 2015, 01:10:16 PM »
Not that tough, guys.

Until she goes from suck to blow.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

Benny B

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #135 on: February 06, 2015, 02:19:33 PM »
Until she goes from suck to blow.

And don't put a sign on the self-destruct button this time.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

MU Fan in Connecticut

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #136 on: February 06, 2015, 03:46:43 PM »
One of the most poignant scenes in the Adams series was when John and John Jr were abroad and a small pox epidemic was sweeping through New England. Abigail Adams had the doctor come by with a cart of dead bodies to have her family inoculated. Brutally ineffective compared with today's vaccines but the only possible prescriptive for deadly viral contagions.

Imagine the strength Abigail needed to make that decision, alone, in order to save her children. People today have no idea how horrible are these contagions. Idiots who fail to vaccinate put large holes in the herd immunity that enable viruses to propagate.

For those who have not seen it, I highly recommend the HBO series on John Adams. We are blessed to have had such men define the concept of America. Today's politicians would do well to study the works of Adams, Jefferson, and Madison.       

Agreed on all accounts.  Very gripping in the mini-series.

Jefferson and Madison had political differences with Washington, Adams & Hamilton yet Madison & Hamilton still managed to work together and write the Federalist Papers to support passage of the Constitution.  There's even them working together for "the deal" to temporarily move the capital from New York to Philadelphia while DC was built.

brandx

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #137 on: February 06, 2015, 03:49:09 PM »
One of the most poignant scenes in the Adams series was when John and John Jr were abroad and a small pox epidemic was sweeping through New England. Abigail Adams had the doctor come by with a cart of dead bodies to have her family inoculated. Brutally ineffective compared with today's vaccines but the only possible prescriptive for deadly viral contagions.

Imagine the strength Abigail needed to make that decision, alone, in order to save her children. People today have no idea how horrible are these contagions. Idiots who fail to vaccinate put large holes in the herd immunity that enable viruses to propagate.

For those who have not seen it, I highly recommend the HBO series on John Adams. We are blessed to have had such men define the concept of America. Today's politicians would do well to study the works of Adams, Jefferson, and Madison.       

In a perfect world, this is the kind of stuff kids would be taught in school. And we might actually end up with some good politicians that way.

But if you ask the average person now, "Who were Adams, Jefferson, and Madison?" you'd probably get one of two replies. "Weren't they presidents or something?" or "Wasn't Jefferson the guy that liked black chicks?"

MU Fan in Connecticut

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #138 on: February 06, 2015, 04:07:21 PM »
Well they do in my kid's school.

Benny B

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #139 on: February 06, 2015, 04:08:13 PM »
In a perfect world, this is the kind of stuff kids would be taught in school. And we might actually end up with some good politicians that way.

But if you ask the average person now, "Who were Adams, Jefferson, and Madison?" you'd probably get one of two replies. "Weren't they presidents or something?" or "Wasn't Jefferson the guy that liked black chicks?"

This is what I would expect from today's elementary school kids:

"Madison is my sister.  I also have a cousin named Madison.  There's also a Madison in the other class."

"Isn't Jefferson that creepy looking guy from that old TV show?"

"Sam Adams is the guy on my dad's juice box.  My dad really, really likes juice."
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

brandx

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #140 on: February 06, 2015, 04:21:40 PM »
This is what I would expect from today's elementary school kids:

"Madison is my sister.  I also have a cousin named Madison.  There's also a Madison in the other class."

"Isn't Jefferson that creepy looking guy from that old TV show?"

"Sam Adams is the guy on my dad's juice box.  My dad really, really likes juice."

Perfect!  The country is in good hands ;D

keefe

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #141 on: February 08, 2015, 03:52:09 PM »
Not surprisingly, Oregon (Don't Tread on Me) has the highest opt out rate in the nation. Lawmakers are looking at eliminating the philosophical exemption.

http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2015/02/vaccination_philosophical_exem.html



Death on call

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #142 on: February 08, 2015, 08:26:54 PM »
Not surprisingly, Oregon (Don't Tread on Me) has the highest opt out rate in the nation. Lawmakers are looking at eliminating the philosophical exemption.

http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2015/02/vaccination_philosophical_exem.html



California is looking to do the same....funny to watch Jerry Brown and others twist on this one.  In 2012 they fully supported the exemptions and were running around touting how this was one of the only ways they supported personal freedoms (ironic, because this is the wrong horse they should have backed while eroding much more precious ones).  Now they're singing a different tune.

http://www.latimes.com/local/politics/la-me-pol-measles-vaccination-20150205-story.html


forgetful

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #143 on: February 08, 2015, 08:36:28 PM »
You're putting up hurdles before we even know what they are.

Also, China does a lot of dumb sh*t, but that doesn't mean the US should just go along for the ride.

Climate change is real. Boom. Truth. Is it all because of humans? Likely not. Too many variables. Do human contribute? Likely yes. Okay, settled. Fine.

So what do we do? Well, throwing up our hands because we don't have a youtube video or IKEA instructions on how to fix the problem is silly.

We need to start at square one: Human behavior. Can we all understand how we make an impact. How can we minimize it day to day?

After that, let's look at industries and see if the private sector can innovate. Maybe some cooperation with governments and public funding.

After that, let's use some social, global and economic pressures with our trade partners, so they get their sh*t together as well.

After that, let's see if we can find another planet to move to, or at least steal their air with a gigantic spaceship that turns into a maid with a vacuum.  

Not that tough, guys.

One of the most fantastic all around posts I've seen, complete with the space balls reference.  Well done sir.

RushmoreAcademy

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #144 on: February 08, 2015, 08:56:22 PM »
Mega Maid.


WellsstreetWanderer

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #145 on: February 10, 2015, 05:21:21 PM »
This is what I would expect from today's elementary school kids:

"Madison is my sister.  I also have a cousin named Madison.  There's also a Madison in the other class."

"Isn't Jefferson that creepy looking guy from that old TV show?"

"Sam Adams is the guy on my dad's juice box.  My dad really, really likes juice."

 Kids today don't have time  for that history stuff. They have to read " Billy Has Two Moms"

jesmu84

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ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #147 on: February 10, 2015, 09:48:02 PM »
I'm a huge climate change guy.  But I agree with you. And, it appears we all agree that we don't know enough about the situation to come up with metrics and measured solutions. So, in light of throwing money at the wall and hoping the solution works (even though we wouldn't have measured results), can we agree to increase funding for studying the situation (the variables, etc)?

Yes, but in exchange I ask that the data be shared with all, including the calculations behind the data. Too many organizations are not being allowed to peer review the data, get access to why the calculations and "adjustments" are made.  That seems to be denying science or hiding some of it, which quite frankly I don't understand.  I sense it's because they don't want to get in a public debate about how the sausage is made because it could bring even more scrutiny on things, but if things are as serious as some want to make it out to be, then open up the models.

jesmu84

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #148 on: February 10, 2015, 10:04:44 PM »
Yes, but in exchange I ask that the data be shared with all, including the calculations behind the data. Too many organizations are not being allowed to peer review the data, get access to why the calculations and "adjustments" are made.  That seems to be denying science or hiding some of it, which quite frankly I don't understand.  I sense it's because they don't want to get in a public debate about how the sausage is made because it could bring even more scrutiny on things, but if things are as serious as some want to make it out to be, then open up the models.

Agreed. We need more transparency at a LOT of levels.

Fortunately, that was a pillar of this administration. Or so I was told a few years ago.

brandx

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #149 on: February 10, 2015, 10:33:33 PM »
Kids today don't have time  for that history stuff. They have to read " Billy Has Two Moms"

You're a moron