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Author Topic: Vaccinations  (Read 50476 times)

Coleman

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2015, 12:54:52 PM »
Honestly, is this just hitting the news or something out there?  This has been going on in this whack job state for years.  My wife and I were given horrid looks when we took our kids to get vaccinated, and both my kids are teens.   Been the "deal" here for as long as I can remember.  My wife is the daughter of a Marquette Med School educated doctor, and we basically told these people to pound sand.  After living in and visiting several 3rd world countries and seeing some of the stuff those kids and people in general go through, no way in hell we wouldn't vaccinate our kids.

Don't forget the ability of people, the press, social media, etc to perpetuate stats that become anchored in some reality.  Whether it's 50% of marriages end in divorce (absolute bullshyte), or 9/11 was an inside job, or vaccinations cause autism, etc, etc.

Chicos, I sincerely love it when we can agree on something.

MUDPT

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2015, 01:05:26 PM »
It's basically the same as drunk driving and injuring someone else.  I'm not sure why there is such a debate anymore.

Aughnanure

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2015, 01:05:51 PM »
I actually was going to make this point but decided I didn't want to light a firebomb on this thread....but you are correct.  "Right denies climate change"(I mean that it is happening, not root cause), "left denies validity of vaccinations".

Both are scientifically verifiable but each group chooses to ignore facts.

Also Portland and their decades long fight against putting flouride in their water!
“All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.” - T.E. Lawrence

brandx

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2015, 01:24:09 PM »
I actually was going to make this point but decided I didn't want to light a firebomb on this thread....but you are correct.  "Right denies climate change"(I mean that it is happening, not root cause), "left denies validity of vaccinations".

Both are scientifically verifiable but each group chooses to ignore facts.

Anti-vaxxers bring together <fill in your own word> from both fringes.

Far Left "Whole Fooders" & Far right anti gov't "get out of my businessers".

An amazing collection of "geniuses" presided over by the renowned academician Jenny McCarthy.


(Not to mention the amazing number of quote signs in a post without quotes from anyone.)

Henry Sugar

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2015, 01:48:23 PM »
Anti-vaxxers are not unique to the fringes of the left or the right. They are distributed across the political spectrum



and, support for vaccines is bipartisan



and, there's no red-state/blue-state breakdown in which states are loose or tight on requiring vaccines

« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 02:02:34 PM by Henry Sugar »
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mu03eng

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2015, 02:02:08 PM »
Anti-vaxxers are not unique to the fringes of the left or the right. They are distributed across the political spectrum



And there-in lies both the problem and the solution.  The anti-vaxxer coalition is broad so it's hard to nail one core belief to refute.  However, the broad coalition is also very much in the minority across the spectrum, so should some leadership on something show up it would be very easy to deliver a mandate for the vaxxer position.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

jsglow

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2015, 02:06:36 PM »
It is absolutely amazing to me that this has become a thing.  Honestly, vaccinations should be a requirement for participation in a civilized society.  It's not a thing people can choose to participate in....if the vast majority of a population are not vaccinated then even the people who are vaccinated are at risk.  SHARED IMMUNITY people, learn what it is!!!

I grew up a military brat and had to be vaccinated to the hilt and any time we showed up at a new base the first thing we had to show when going to medical for the first time was the vaccination records, I assume its the same in the civilian world, yes?

To make it MU related, anyone know if MU requires you to be vaccinated, I don't remember.  If not we should.

We were certainly required to provide MU with the kids' medical records prior to Frosh year.  I can't recall if prior vaccination was a requirement or merely a very strong recommendation.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 02:12:51 PM by jsglow »

Lennys Tap

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2015, 02:08:33 PM »
Anti-vaxxers are not unique to the fringes of the left or the right. They are distributed across the political spectrum



and, support for vaccines is bipartisan



and, there's no red-state/blue-state breakdown in which states are loose or tight on requiring vaccines



Mississippi and West Virginia are the only states who require immunization without exception. The rest of the country is, at some level at least, anti-science. Go figure.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 02:12:01 PM by Lennys Tap »

brandx

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2015, 02:18:52 PM »
It's not just vaccinations. There are people fighting to increase other diseases besides just childhood illnesses.

Sen. Thom Tillis (R-N.C.) said that he’s okay with the idea of service industry workers returning to work without washing their hands after touching their unmentionables, as long as customers are made aware of the situation.

MerrittsMustache

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2015, 02:19:53 PM »
Mississippi and West Virginia are the only states who require immunization without exception. The rest of the country is, at some level at least, anti-science. Go figure.

To be fair, science hasn't reached Mississippi and West Virginia yet. Give it time.


jsglow

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2015, 02:30:28 PM »
Here's what I don't get.  (Actually, I do.)

In the last 100 years we've all but eliminated scores of horrible diseases that absolutely destroyed families in our grandparents and great grandparents generation.  Almost everyone had a child or sibling that was taken from them by these killers.  Now, at least until recently, such deaths all but unheard of.  I don't personally know of a single example of a child lost to polio, whooping cough, etc.  But ask my mom (MU Nursing '54) what vaccinations meant for a society and you'd get a lengthy discussion if she were still alive.  How quickly we forget.

And this is not in any way to diminish the horrible scourge that is today's autism.  It affects my own extended family.  We must find answers.  But crazy pseudo-science isn't the place to begin the search.  

Benny B

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #36 on: February 03, 2015, 02:33:00 PM »
It's not just vaccinations. There are people fighting to increase other diseases besides just childhood illnesses.

Sen. Thom Tillis (R-N.C.) said that he’s okay with the idea of service industry workers returning to work without washing their hands after touching their unmentionables, as long as customers are made aware of the situation.

Seriously.... come on now.  Quit with the 10-second soundbites that, I am willing to bet, are being taken drastically out of context.  We're trying to have a civil, educated and informed discussion here on how Jenny McCarthy is unequivocally a dumb whore.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

GGGG

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #37 on: February 03, 2015, 02:33:39 PM »
Here's what I don't get.  (Actually, I do.)

In the last 100 years we've all but eliminated scores of horrible diseases that absolutely destroyed families in our grandparents and great grandparents generation.  Almost everyone had a child or sibling that was taken from them by these killers.  Now, at least until recently, such deaths all but unheard of.  I don't personally know of a single example of a child lost to polio, whooping cough, etc.  But ask my mom (MU Nursing '54) what vaccinations meant for a society and you'd get a lengthy discussion if she were still alive.  How quickly we forget.  


That really is it.  Since many of us weren't around to witness those diseases, we take vaccinations for granted.  

warriorchick

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2015, 02:41:04 PM »
Seriously.... come on now.  Quit with the 10-second soundbites that, I am willing to bet, are being taken drastically out of context.  We're trying to have a civil, educated and informed discussion here on how Jenny McCarthy is unequivocally a dumb whore.

http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Jenny_McCarthy_Body_Count/Anti-Vaccine_History.html
Have some patience, FFS.

GGGG

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #39 on: February 03, 2015, 02:52:35 PM »
Seriously.... come on now.  Quit with the 10-second soundbites that, I am willing to bet, are being taken drastically out of context.  We're trying to have a civil, educated and informed discussion here on how Jenny McCarthy is unequivocally a dumb whore.


Well....perhaps not.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/in-the-loop/wp/2015/02/03/the-next-public-health-debate-hand-washing/?tid=sm_fb

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2015, 02:53:04 PM »
Anti-vaxxers are not unique to the fringes of the left or the right. They are distributed across the political spectrum



and, support for vaccines is bipartisan



and, there's no red-state/blue-state breakdown in which states are loose or tight on requiring vaccines



I never thought I'd say this, but West Virginia and Mississippi really have their sh*t together.

If anybody around here is anti-vax, please send me a PM and let me know so I can immediately ignore you and disregard anything you ever post.

Thanks in advance,
Amo.

warriorchick

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2015, 02:56:09 PM »
A relative of mine and his wife are two of the most intelligent people I know, and are reasonable people on any other topic.  But I know they are likely to go to their graves believing that vaccinations caused their son's autism.

They have bought into Andrew Wakefield's crazy crap hook, line, and sinker, and have spent tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars on snake-oil treatment (chelation, hyperbaric chambers, etc.).  If I ask them if his theories or so sound, why did he have his medical license yanked for research fraud, they respond with, "Big Pharma has a lot of money and influence, and they have their financial interests in vaccinations to protect."

It has to be hard to deal with the fact that no one knows what causes autism, because if that's the case, it is next to impossible to come up with a cure.  That is the only thing I can think of that would to cause them to hold on to this wacky belief.
Have some patience, FFS.

mu03eng

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #42 on: February 03, 2015, 02:58:45 PM »

That really is it.  Since many of us weren't around to witness those diseases, we take vaccinations for granted.  

I did see a quote from someone, can't find it, but advocating for vaccinations is like advocating for alien prevention.  The current decision makers (gen X, Y, and millennial) have never experienced why vaccines are so important so they don't see a need to do it.

Additionally, we have done a really poor job of educating the public.  Everyone assumes if you get a vaccine shot you can't get the disease which is not true.  If you have enough exposure, a vaccine can be overwhelmed and you get the disease as well.  Everyone treats it as if it's a choice that impacts only them

<insert millennial selfishness joke here>
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #43 on: February 03, 2015, 02:59:36 PM »

Well....perhaps not.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/in-the-loop/wp/2015/02/03/the-next-public-health-debate-hand-washing/?tid=sm_fb

Ugh.

I like libertarian and free market principles, but this is just stupid.

Also, it's a bit ironic that he will give restaurants the freedom to determine their own policy, but will legally require that they post a sign about their handwashing policy. Not exactly free market.

Senator Tillis, Who you crappin'?

GooooMarquette

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2015, 03:00:46 PM »
Last night on CNN Tonight, they had two pediatricians debate the issue.  I was shocked to learn that there is actually a licensed physician in America who'd be willing to speak in support of the anti-vax crowd.  Not surprisingly, he was thoroughly out-debated by the pro-vaccine doc.  His entire argument was based on the notion of informed consent.  Whenever they'd bring up science, stats, facts showing that vaccines implicate different public health issues than most procedures, he'd just repeat "but parents have the right to give informed consent."  He even conceded that there is no provable link between vaccines and autism...but still contended that parents should have the right to decline "like they can for any other medical procedure."

Dude should have his license pulled.

cj111

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #45 on: February 03, 2015, 03:01:17 PM »
A relative of mine and his wife are two of the most intelligent people I know, and are reasonable people on any other topic.  But I know they are likely to go to their graves believing that vaccinations caused their son's autism.

They have bought into Andrew Wakefield's crazy crap hook, line, and sinker, and have spent tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars on snake-oil treatment (chelation, hyperbaric chambers, etc.).  If I ask them if his theories or so sound, why did he have his medical license yanked for research fraud, they respond with, "Big Pharma has a lot of money and influence, and they have their financial interests in vaccinations to protect."

It has to be hard to deal with the fact that no one knows what causes autism, because if that's the case, it is next to impossible to come up with a cure.  That is the only thing I can think of that would to cause them to hold on to this wacky belief.

This just makes me sad.  I'm sorry for your relative.  But I am incensed at the snake oil salesmen, quack-cure peddlers, and deluded pseudo-scientists.  They're nothing but misery vultures and the lowest form of humanity.

MerrittsMustache

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #46 on: February 03, 2015, 03:02:30 PM »
I did see a quote from someone, can't find it, but advocating for vaccinations is like advocating for alien prevention.  The current decision makers (gen X, Y, and millennial) have never experienced why vaccines are so important so they don't see a need to do it.

Additionally, we have done a really poor job of educating the public.  Everyone assumes if you get a vaccine shot you can't get the disease which is not true.  If you have enough exposure, a vaccine can be overwhelmed and you get the disease as well.  Everyone treats it as if it's a choice that impacts only them

<insert millennial selfishness joke here>

This is exactly right. I mean, just think of how many intelligent, well-rounded people still believe that the flu shot protects against the stomach flu.


mu03eng

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #47 on: February 03, 2015, 03:10:12 PM »
A relative of mine and his wife are two of the most intelligent people I know, and are reasonable people on any other topic.  But I know they are likely to go to their graves believing that vaccinations caused their son's autism.

They have bought into Andrew Wakefield's crazy crap hook, line, and sinker, and have spent tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars on snake-oil treatment (chelation, hyperbaric chambers, etc.).  If I ask them if his theories or so sound, why did he have his medical license yanked for research fraud, they respond with, "Big Pharma has a lot of money and influence, and they have their financial interests in vaccinations to protect."

It has to be hard to deal with the fact that no one knows what causes autism, because if that's the case, it is next to impossible to come up with a cure.  That is the only thing I can think of that would to cause them to hold on to this wacky belief.

Part of this (to bring it back to basketball and stats) is media putting stats out there without also providing context.  They report things like instances of autism increasing by 244% in the past 20 years, but without the context of A) autism "definition" changing B) awareness of what autism is and testing for it.  Far more people are diagnosed with it than before because we know what the hell it is and what to look for.  I can't prove it of course but I suspect the same ratio of people have it now as 20-30 years ago, just the diagnostics have caught up with the disorder.

The autism spectrum is so vast that half the engineers I work with are probably on it.  Autism, while terrible, has become wildly over-diagnosed (this periods ADHD) and it becomes a boogyman.

My two nephews (5 and 2) were both "diagnosed" with autism when they were 18 months(family lives in Portland of course).  Both diagnoses have been reversed since.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

warriorchick

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #48 on: February 03, 2015, 03:17:40 PM »


The autism spectrum is so vast that half the engineers I work with are probably on it.  Autism, while terrible, has become wildly over-diagnosed (this periods ADHD) and it becomes a boogyman.

My two nephews (5 and 2) were both "diagnosed" with autism when they were 18 months(family lives in Portland of course).  Both diagnoses have been reversed since.

Unfortunately, the case I am talking about is pretty severe - and I mean "kid from St. Elsewhere" severe.

But I agree in general that it is way over-diagnosed.  No kid is a little a-hole anymore.  Now he has Asperger's.
Have some patience, FFS.

cj111

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Re: Vaccinations
« Reply #49 on: February 03, 2015, 03:18:38 PM »
No kid is a little a-hole anymore. 

Mine are... occasionally.