Marquette gambled ...

[MU82]

Everyone has a major hard on over Wojo for basically one reason at this point:  Henry Ellenson.

I don't have a major hard-on for Wojo. Nor do I have a "hate woody" for him.

See, with some of us -- perhaps even the majority of us -- everything isn't black or white, all or nothing, "I'm right and you're wrong."

I see potential in Wojo. He's in his first season as a head coach. Cuonzo Martin went 11-20 in his first season at Missouri State. Ben Howland went 8-18 in his first season at Northern Arizona, 13-15 in his first season at Pitt and 11-17 in his first season at UCLA. And while Shaka Smart -- wait, make that The Great Shaka Smart -- went 27-9 in his first season at VCU, he only went 11-7 in a mediocre conference and lost in his league tournament.

And those are just the other coaches who were considered for our job. I won't even go into Calipari starting 10-18 at UMass, Coach K 38-47 in his first three years at Duke, Rick Pitino 17-14 at Providence and 14-14 at Kentucky, Dean smith 8-9 at UNC, Jim Calhoun 9-19 at UConn, Lute Olson 10-16 at Iowa and 11-17 at Arizona, etc, etc, etc. (OK ... I guess I would go into them, because I just did).

I can just see the Ners equivalent at Duke or UMass or Arizona railing about K or Cal or Lute not being able to coach.

I know you believe our roster was packed with ready-to-win talent before the season. I disagreed, and so did many people who played past high school, such as Big East coaches, Jay Bilas, etc. That's OK, you're allowed to have an opinion, even one that has proven to be wrong.

I thought a .500 record would be an achievement for this team. Nothing has happened to change my mind about that.

I don't consider Wojo a good game coach yet. I'd be surprised if he were. K played and coached under Bobby Knight; I wonder how good a game coach K was right out of the chute. I wish Derrick played a little less and Cohen/JJJ played a little more. I wish Wojo had been able to talk Deonte into staying. I wish we'd do something late in games other than pray Carlino can make a fade-away 3 with a hand in his face.

But I like what Wojo has shown so far as a recruiter, I like his intensity, I like his flexibility, I like the way he communicates, I like that he disciplined JJJ for not pulling his weight while gradually increasing his minutes in 3 of 4 games since then, I like that Wojo admitted he should have played Cohen more and then did so.

Wojo will be a better coach next season and then the year after that and then the year after that. If he's not, he'll be gone. At least by then, we'll have a true read.

To look at what he has done so far and declare him a failure -- and to base it partly on what other Duke assistants have done, which has nothing to do with anything -- is silly and shortsighted.

It's also counterproductive ... unless one actually enjoys being miserable all the time. I'm getting what I can out of a season I knew would be rough -- the exciting finish against Creighton, Luke's first couple games, Duane's great moments, Sandy's improvement. I'm looking forward to Henry and other recruits.

To keep rehashing the same BS over and over and over again, and to repeatedly rip a rookie coach who is struggling in some of the same ways rookie coaches named K and Cuonzo and Dean and Cal did ... well, that's just not how I choose to live my life.

[MU B2002]

I don't have a major hard-on for Wojo. Nor do I have a "hate woody" for him.

See, with some of us -- perhaps even the majority of us -- everything isn't black or white, all or nothing, "I'm right and you're wrong."

I see potential in Wojo. He's in his first season as a head coach. Cuonzo Martin went 11-20 in his first season at Missouri State. Ben Howland went 8-18 in his first season at Northern Arizona, 13-15 in his first season at Pitt and 11-17 in his first season at UCLA. And while Shaka Smart -- wait, make that The Great Shaka Smart -- went 27-9 in his first season at VCU, he only went 11-7 in a mediocre conference and lost in his league tournament.

And those are just the other coaches who were considered for our job. I won't even go into Calipari starting 10-18 at UMass, Coach K 38-47 in his first three years at Duke, Rick Pitino 17-14 at Providence and 14-14 at Kentucky, Dean smith 8-9 at UNC, Jim Calhoun 9-19 at UConn, Lute Olson 10-16 at Iowa and 11-17 at Arizona, etc, etc, etc. (OK ... I guess I would go into them, because I just did).

I can just see the Ners equivalent at Duke or UMass or Arizona railing about K or Cal or Lute not being able to coach.

I know you believe our roster was packed with ready-to-win talent before the season. I disagreed, and so did many people who played past high school, such as Big East coaches, Jay Bilas, etc. That's OK, you're allowed to have an opinion, even one that has proven to be wrong.

I thought a .500 record would be an achievement for this team. Nothing has happened to change my mind about that.

I don't consider Wojo a good game coach yet. I'd be surprised if he were. K played and coached under Bobby Knight; I wonder how good a game coach K was right out of the chute. I wish Derrick played a little less and Cohen/JJJ played a little more. I wish Wojo had been able to talk Deonte into staying. I wish we'd do something late in games other than pray Carlino can make a fade-away 3 with a hand in his face.

But I like what Wojo has shown so far as a recruiter, I like his intensity, I like his flexibility, I like the way he communicates, I like that he disciplined JJJ for not pulling his weight while gradually increasing his minutes in 3 of 4 games since then, I like that Wojo admitted he should have played Cohen more and then did so.

Wojo will be a better coach next season and then the year after that and then the year after that. If he's not, he'll be gone. At least by then, we'll have a true read.

To look at what he has done so far and declare him a failure -- and to base it partly on what other Duke assistants have done, which has nothing to do with anything -- is silly and shortsighted.

It's also counterproductive ... unless one actually enjoys being miserable all the time. I'm getting what I can out of a season I knew would be rough -- the exciting finish against Creighton, Luke's first couple games, Duane's great moments, Sandy's improvement. I'm looking forward to Henry and other recruits.

To keep rehashing the same BS over and over and over again, and to repeatedly rip a rookie coach who is struggling in some of the same ways rookie coaches named K and Cuonzo and Dean and Cal did ... well, that's just not how I choose to live my life.

Yep. +1

[NersEllenson]

I don't have a major hard-on for Wojo. Nor do I have a "hate woody" for him.

See, with some of us -- perhaps even the majority of us -- everything isn't black or white, all or nothing, "I'm right and you're wrong."

I see potential in Wojo. He's in his first season as a head coach. Cuonzo Martin went 11-20 in his first season at Missouri State. Ben Howland went 8-18 in his first season at Northern Arizona, 13-15 in his first season at Pitt and 11-17 in his first season at UCLA. And while Shaka Smart -- wait, make that The Great Shaka Smart -- went 27-9 in his first season at VCU, he only went 11-7 in a mediocre conference and lost in his league tournament.

And those are just the other coaches who were considered for our job. I won't even go into Calipari starting 10-18 at UMass, Coach K 38-47 in his first three years at Duke, Rick Pitino 17-14 at Providence and 14-14 at Kentucky, Dean smith 8-9 at UNC, Jim Calhoun 9-19 at UConn, Lute Olson 10-16 at Iowa and 11-17 at Arizona, etc, etc, etc. (OK ... I guess I would go into them, because I just did).

I can just see the Ners equivalent at Duke or UMass or Arizona railing about K or Cal or Lute not being able to coach.

I know you believe our roster was packed with ready-to-win talent before the season. I disagreed, and so did many people who played past high school, such as Big East coaches, Jay Bilas, etc. That's OK, you're allowed to have an opinion, even one that has proven to be wrong.

I thought a .500 record would be an achievement for this team. Nothing has happened to change my mind about that.

I don't consider Wojo a good game coach yet. I'd be surprised if he were. K played and coached under Bobby Knight; I wonder how good a game coach K was right out of the chute. I wish Derrick played a little less and Cohen/JJJ played a little more. I wish Wojo had been able to talk Deonte into staying. I wish we'd do something late in games other than pray Carlino can make a fade-away 3 with a hand in his face.

But I like what Wojo has shown so far as a recruiter, I like his intensity, I like his flexibility, I like the way he communicates, I like that he disciplined JJJ for not pulling his weight while gradually increasing his minutes in 3 of 4 games since then, I like that Wojo admitted he should have played Cohen more and then did so.

Wojo will be a better coach next season and then the year after that and then the year after that. If he's not, he'll be gone. At least by then, we'll have a true read.

To look at what he has done so far and declare him a failure -- and to base it partly on what other Duke assistants have done, which has nothing to do with anything -- is silly and shortsighted.

It's also counterproductive ... unless one actually enjoys being miserable all the time. I'm getting what I can out of a season I knew would be rough -- the exciting finish against Creighton, Luke's first couple games, Duane's great moments, Sandy's improvement. I'm looking forward to Henry and other recruits.

To keep rehashing the same BS over and over and over again, and to repeatedly rip a rookie coach who is struggling in some of the same ways rookie coaches named K and Cuonzo and Dean and Cal did ... well, that's just not how I choose to live my life.

Nice post 82.  I guess I just don't look at all coaching changes as being all situations equal.  Buzz walked into a GREAT situation Year 1.  Year 2 for Buzz was going to be tough, given what talent was in the program at that time.  I believe Wojo walked into a pretty darn good situation at MU

So while it is great to bring up the situations of Cuonzo Martin, Ben Howland, Shaka, etc - what they walked into of course was different than what Wojo walked into at Marquette.

I know you cite our pre-season expectations weren't high by the media as justification for this year's poor record, yet we both know last season's team was projected to win the Big East - it was an AWFUL coaching job by Buzz that led to us missing the NIT.

As I see it grading Wojo since he took job:

A - Retaining current roster of players he inherited upon taking the job back in April.

A - Recruiting.  Exceeded my expectations with his first recruiting class - along with landing Carlino.

C - Buy in from team once season started.  Lost two players to transfer - one of whom was an All Big East freshman.  May lose JJJ as well - what looked like a very talented class (when you add the Luke transfer to it), could be down to 2 out of the 5 players in the class.  I do feel the team is playing hard so there is that.

D - In game coaching.  Has made some nice adjustments with D, yet has made some head scratching decisions along the way.

Overall grade: C-.  The first category of retention of all players upon taking the job loses value once Mayo, Burton and Dawson exited the program in the next 8 months.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

7 top 100 guys THIS YEAR guys on that roster.  Will Marquette fans be patient for the next few years not in the tournament?

When the badger troll starts making the same point as you...you know you are in trouble

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

MU82, you make fantastic posts. Cheers to you sir

[cj111]

As I see it grading Wojo since he took job:

A - Retaining current roster of players he inherited upon taking the job back in April.

A - Recruiting.  Exceeded my expectations with his first recruiting class - along with landing Carlino.

C - Buy in from team once season started.  Lost two players to transfer - one of whom was an All Big East freshman.  May lose JJJ as well - what looked like a very talented class (when you add the Luke transfer to it), could be down to 2 out of the 5 players in the class.  I do feel the team is playing hard so there is that.

D - In game coaching.  Has made some nice adjustments with D, yet has made some head scratching decisions along the way.

Overall grade: C-.  The first category of retention of all players upon taking the job loses value once Mayo, Burton and Dawson exited the program in the next 8 months.

So three of the four grades are a C or higher, including two As, and yet the overall grade is a C-?  Sounds kind of, well, illogical.

[MerrittsMustache]

So three of the four grades are a C or higher, including two As, and yet the overall grade is a C-?  Sounds kind of, well, illogical.

The grades come out to a 2.75 GPA which is a solid B...so C- makes perfect sense.

[MU B2002]

The grades come out to a 2.75 GPA which is a solid B...so C- makes perfect sense.

See what you don't know is: at Imaginary Coach Evaluation School for those who played basketball, Categories 1-3 are 1 credit hour, in game coaching is 5 credit hours.

4+4+2+5=15  15/8=1.875

Solid C-

[dgies9156]

The grades come out to a 2.75 GPA which is a solid B...so C- makes perfect sense.

It may have been a few years ago, but when I was at Marquette, 2.75 is a C+, maybe a B-------

[dgies9156]

See what you don't know is: at Imaginary Coach Evaluation School for those who played basketball, Categories 1-3 are 1 credit hour, in game coaching is 5 credit hours.
4+4+2+5=15  15/8=1.875
Solid C-

1.875 at Marquette would put someone on academic probation. You don't graduate with this GPA.

[cj111]

See what you don't know is: at Imaginary Coach Evaluation School for those who played basketball, Categories 1-3 are 1 credit hour, in game coaching is 5 credit hours.

4+4+2+5=15  15/8=1.875

Solid C-

I know someone who went to school there.  I think he transferred from Mindlessly Repetitive Point Guard Evaluation School.

[Dr. Blackheart]

1.875 at Marquette would put someone on academic probation. You don't graduate with this GPA.

Chicos has placed Wojo on the Five Year Plan

[MerrittsMustache]

It may have been a few years ago, but when I was at Marquette, 2.75 is a C+, maybe a B-------

Princeton says it's a B. 

http://inquiry.princetonreview.com/leadgentemplate/GPA_popup.asp

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The grades come out to a 2.75 GPA which is a solid B...so C- makes perfect sense.

I didn't even notice that. Hilarious!

I would also add that the D in in game coaching seems a bit harsh. Did that Shaka bastard screw up the curve again?

[Eldon]

I don't have a major hard-on for Wojo. Nor do I have a "hate woody" for him.

See, with some of us -- perhaps even the majority of us -- everything isn't black or white, all or nothing, "I'm right and you're wrong."

I see potential in Wojo. He's in his first season as a head coach. Cuonzo Martin went 11-20 in his first season at Missouri State. Ben Howland went 8-18 in his first season at Northern Arizona, 13-15 in his first season at Pitt and 11-17 in his first season at UCLA. And while Shaka Smart -- wait, make that The Great Shaka Smart -- went 27-9 in his first season at VCU, he only went 11-7 in a mediocre conference and lost in his league tournament.

And those are just the other coaches who were considered for our job. I won't even go into Calipari starting 10-18 at UMass, Coach K 38-47 in his first three years at Duke, Rick Pitino 17-14 at Providence and 14-14 at Kentucky, Dean smith 8-9 at UNC, Jim Calhoun 9-19 at UConn, Lute Olson 10-16 at Iowa and 11-17 at Arizona, etc, etc, etc. (OK ... I guess I would go into them, because I just did).

I can just see the Ners equivalent at Duke or UMass or Arizona railing about K or Cal or Lute not being able to coach.

I know you believe our roster was packed with ready-to-win talent before the season. I disagreed, and so did many people who played past high school, such as Big East coaches, Jay Bilas, etc. That's OK, you're allowed to have an opinion, even one that has proven to be wrong.

I thought a .500 record would be an achievement for this team. Nothing has happened to change my mind about that.

I don't consider Wojo a good game coach yet. I'd be surprised if he were. K played and coached under Bobby Knight; I wonder how good a game coach K was right out of the chute. I wish Derrick played a little less and Cohen/JJJ played a little more. I wish Wojo had been able to talk Deonte into staying. I wish we'd do something late in games other than pray Carlino can make a fade-away 3 with a hand in his face.

But I like what Wojo has shown so far as a recruiter, I like his intensity, I like his flexibility, I like the way he communicates, I like that he disciplined JJJ for not pulling his weight while gradually increasing his minutes in 3 of 4 games since then, I like that Wojo admitted he should have played Cohen more and then did so.

Wojo will be a better coach next season and then the year after that and then the year after that. If he's not, he'll be gone. At least by then, we'll have a true read.

To look at what he has done so far and declare him a failure -- and to base it partly on what other Duke assistants have done, which has nothing to do with anything -- is silly and shortsighted.

It's also counterproductive ... unless one actually enjoys being miserable all the time. I'm getting what I can out of a season I knew would be rough -- the exciting finish against Creighton, Luke's first couple games, Duane's great moments, Sandy's improvement. I'm looking forward to Henry and other recruits.

To keep rehashing the same BS over and over and over again, and to repeatedly rip a rookie coach who is struggling in some of the same ways rookie coaches named K and Cuonzo and Dean and Cal did ... well, that's just not how I choose to live my life.

Good post.  Maybe some are pissed at Wojo not because it's Wojo per se, but rather it's what Wojo represents.  Here's what I mean.  Some may feel that MU should be in that second tier right after the blue bloods.  Hiring an assistant is *not* what schools in that tier do.  If Miller left Arizona would they take some assistant?  If Matta left tOSU, would they hire an assistant with no experience?  Hiring an assistant is gambling and elite programs shouldn't have to take a gamble on an unproven assistant.  Wojo is proof that we aren't in that next tier yet.  The fact that Wojo has struggled this year is the downside of that uncertainty coming to fruition.

I have to admit, I was not pleased when we hired Wojo.  I wanted Howland (and kinda still do, stink notwithstanding) and was unsure about Martin.  I mean, if we have to a hire an assistant, I would want the best out there, but I was hoping we would get Howland or steal someone from a quality school (e.g., Jamie Dixon).  Someone who could hit the ground running.

[MU82]

Nice post 82.  I guess I just don't look at all coaching changes as being all situations equal.  Buzz walked into a GREAT situation Year 1.  Year 2 for Buzz was going to be tough, given what talent was in the program at that time.  I believe Wojo walked into a pretty darn good situation at MU

So while it is great to bring up the situations of Cuonzo Martin, Ben Howland, Shaka, etc - what they walked into of course was different than what Wojo walked into at Marquette.

I know you cite our pre-season expectations weren't high by the media as justification for this year's poor record, yet we both know last season's team was projected to win the Big East - it was an AWFUL coaching job by Buzz that led to us missing the NIT.

As I see it grading Wojo since he took job:

A - Retaining current roster of players he inherited upon taking the job back in April.

A - Recruiting.  Exceeded my expectations with his first recruiting class - along with landing Carlino.

C - Buy in from team once season started.  Lost two players to transfer - one of whom was an All Big East freshman.  May lose JJJ as well - what looked like a very talented class (when you add the Luke transfer to it), could be down to 2 out of the 5 players in the class.  I do feel the team is playing hard so there is that.

D - In game coaching.  Has made some nice adjustments with D, yet has made some head scratching decisions along the way.

Overall grade: C-.  The first category of retention of all players upon taking the job loses value once Mayo, Burton and Dawson exited the program in the next 8 months.

Of course they all had different situations. I am not going to waste my time going back and seeing what kinds of teams Howland inherited at each stop. But I would bet a million bucks that no matter what kind of hand he was dealt, many fans at those schools were grading him C- or less. Because that's what fans -- especially those who see things in black and white, "I'm right and you're wrong" -- do.

Marquette was picked by coaches -- not media -- to finish in a tie for 7th with Butler. The coaches were wrong on both counts so yes, it shows that they probably aren't as smart as they think they are, either. It all shows that they probably don't put a lot of thought into these polls or that they assign them to somebody else to do. Coaches are busy and couldn't give a rat's rear about polls.

Besides, I didn't need those predictions to know we weren't going to be very good this year. We had one player taller than 6-7 (who wasn't available till mid-December) and two who weren't built like guards. We had little outside shooting. We didn't have a proven stud PG to make plays. Our best offensive players were mediocre (at best) defenders. A sophomore we were counting on heavily had a family tragedy just before the season and understandably couldn't cope.

I don't blame fans for being optimists. I like being optimistic, too. But one didn't have to be a pessimist to be realistic about what was to come this season.

Frankly, I am impressed we have been in as many games as we have been. Next season, when we have more top-to-bottom talent and, hopefully, can bring in or develop a "closer" or two, and when our coach is more experienced, we'll win our fair share of these games.

But I'm realistic enough to know that next year probably isn't going to be spectacular, either. A return to the NCAAs would be a fantastic accomplishment. By next October, the more objective among us will know if that's realistic, too.

One thing I'm not going to do is throw our rookie coach under the bus and assume he won't improve. I've been a rookie coach -- at a much lower level, of course, but the idea is the same. No matter how much training you've had, it's not easy ... as Calipari and all those others I named discovered. I like to think I've gotten better since my rookie year, and I'm confident Wojo will improve dramatically.

And if he doesn't, he'll be gone and we'll take another "gamble." That's sports. It was a plenty big gamble for Duke to take an unproven guy from Army with an unpronounceable name, too.

In this day and age, he would have been fired before he ever got the chance to be Coach 1K, and the Ners of the Dookie world would have been leading the pitchfork-and-torches crowd against him.

As for your grading system, it must be the new math.

[Goose]

Wojo was hardly a gamble. His image and Duke background made him the perfect choice. Taking Martin or Howland would have been a gamble. MU wanted a "good" guy and it appears Wojo is a good guy.

[Lighthouse 84]

It may have been a few years ago, but when I was at Marquette, 2.75 is a C+, maybe a B-------

Back in the day, I think they called it a B/C.

While it's too early to be definite, I'm of the opinion that MU gambled and won.  He's got a great first class coming in 15-16, he convinced Chief to stay and while he hasn't made all the right moves in game yet, my feeling is he will soon.  He watched K for so many years he had to have picked up on what to do in different situations.  He just needs the horses.  When he gets them beginning next year, he'll have a much better opportunity to look like the Coach K protege we expected when he was hired.

[rocky_warrior]

When the badger troll starts making the same point as you...you know you are in trouble

I was thinking this too...thread started by obvious troll, joined by Bucky troll, and Ners is basically arguing that both are right.

Ners...think about it.  That's exactly how you sound!

[ChicosBailBonds]

Everyone has a major hard on over Wojo for basically one reason at this point:  Henry Ellenson. 

Nope. 

I'm glad we have someone that isn't slimy as F^ck whose cheese slid off his cracker.  Whether he can coach at a high level, we won't know fully for 4 or 5 years, but there will certainly be plenty of data points along the way to form opinions.  Recruiting is one of those data points, so far so good.  We'll see if he can nail down a few other classes.  I wouldn't mind him grabbing someone on the staff with some experience, similar to what Crean and Buzz did in their tenures.  Too many inexperienced guys on the staff right now IMO. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos has placed Wojo on the Five Year Plan

Remember, it is FULLY known in 4 to 5 years.  Plenty of data points along the way.  If he is not a good coach, that will be known fairly early in the process.  The 4 to 5 years is better at detecting if a new coach is living on the laurels of the previous guy, tends to expose them in years 4 and 5 when their guys are in the system fully. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

What does Tony Bennett have to do with Marquette and the hiring of Wojo?

My favorite posts on the Badger board were calling on Bo Ryan to retire last year when you went through your tough stretch.  Do you remember those?  Fantastic comedy.  He was out of touch, couldn't recruit anymore, should retire, the game had passed him by.  December and January of last season.  Worth the read.

[79Warrior]

Nope. 

I'm glad we have someone that isn't slimy as F^ck whose cheese slid off his cracker.  Whether he can coach at a high level, we won't know fully for 4 or 5 years, but there will certainly be plenty of data points along the way to form opinions.  Recruiting is one of those data points, so far so good.  We'll see if he can nail down a few other classes.  I wouldn't mind him grabbing someone on the staff with some experience, similar to what Crean and Buzz did in their tenures.  Too many inexperienced guys on the staff right now IMO. 

Your staff comment is actually a very interesting point.

[MUHoopsFan2]

Your staff comment is actually a very interesting point.

Yes it is...

[brewcity77]

Nope. 

I'm glad we have someone that isn't slimy as F^ck whose cheese slid off his cracker.  Whether he can coach at a high level, we won't know fully for 4 or 5 years, but there will certainly be plenty of data points along the way to form opinions.  Recruiting is one of those data points, so far so good.  We'll see if he can nail down a few other classes.  I wouldn't mind him grabbing someone on the staff with some experience, similar to what Crean and Buzz did in their tenures.  Too many inexperienced guys on the staff right now IMO.

Agreed, I was hoping Wainwright would stick around. A veteran, even in a non assistant role could help, like Lavin has with Keady.