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Next up: A long offseason

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HutchwasClutch

Quote from: Texas Western on January 25, 2015, 10:21:09 PM
I enjoy it when Simpkins covers our games. He takes the time to understand our kids.

You're going to have to walk me through what that second sentence is supposed to mean? 

willie warrior

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on January 25, 2015, 12:20:36 AM
Geez, Simpkins is a bad commentator.  What gets me is when he sounds like a 15 year old girl with his "OMG", and "hashtag ..." after a nice play by someone. 
C,mon man--he was giving Derrick the love.
I thought you were dead. Willie lives rent free in Reekers mind. Rick Pitino: "You can either complain or adapt."

TSmith34, Inc.

Don't know who said it here during the Georgetown game, but it is more convincing then ever that Duane is a shooting guard, not a point guard.
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

NersEllenson

Quote from: TSmith34 on January 26, 2015, 02:58:01 PM
Don't know who said it here during the Georgetown game, but it is more convincing then ever that Duane is a shooting guard, not a point guard.

LOL - Just because you want and support a PG that cannot hit the broad side of a barn, does not mean a PG shouldn't be a good shooter and threat from all over the floor.

Duane created a number of his looks by himself as it was - and furthermore if you had a clue, once the ball is in the half court set, all guards handle the ball and spend time playing off the ball.

"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

Wojo'sMojo

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 26, 2015, 03:03:01 PM
LOL - Just because you want and support a PG that cannot hit the broad side of a barn, does not mean a PG shouldn't be a good shooter and threat from all over the floor.

Duane created a number of his looks by himself as it was - and furthermore if you had a clue, once the ball is in the half court set, all guards handle the ball and spend time playing off the ball.



Exactly! Guy hits multiple 3's and apparently that disqualifies him from running the point at MU in some people's eyes. I guess we should just look for the reincarnation of Derrick when he graduates and all will be well!

willie warrior

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on January 26, 2015, 05:17:28 PM
Exactly! Guy hits multiple 3's and apparently that disqualifies him from running the point at MU in some people's eyes. I guess we should just look for the reincarnation of Derrick when he graduates and all will be well!
Now come on. About 65% of the people in the poll have spoken. Derrick should be the starting PG--not Duane. Everything is great in a democracy and the people have spoken. We should not give the keys to Duane now to see how he performs at PG. Don't worry--be happy. Preparing for the future is not necessary The people believe that 6 points a game and 10-9 are the way to roll.
I thought you were dead. Willie lives rent free in Reekers mind. Rick Pitino: "You can either complain or adapt."

MUHoopsFan2

Quote from: TSmith34 on January 26, 2015, 02:58:01 PM
Don't know who said it here during the Georgetown game, but it is more convincing then ever that Duane is a shooting guard, not a point guard.
Not necessarily true my friend.

Just because you can hit shots does not mean that you cannot create for others and distribute. Bucks fans say the same thing about Brandon Knight...

You need to re-examine the PG position in today's game. It is not your traditional cookie cutter version of what we used to perceive a PG to be per se.

Even Travis Diener could shoot and hit 3's. Does that mean he was not a point guard?  

TAMU, Knower of Ball

Quote from: MUHoopsFan2 on January 27, 2015, 12:48:38 AM
Not necessarily true my friend.

Just because you can hit shots does not mean that you cannot create for others and distribute. Bucks fans say the same thing about Brandon Knight...

You need to re-examine the PG position in today's game. It is not your traditional cookie cutter version of what we used to perceive a PG to be per se.

Even Travis Diener could shoot and hit 3's. Does that mean he was not a point guard?  

I think his point was that Duane was at his best when he was running off screens and getting set up by others. PGs don't usually get that luxury. However, I agree, I think Duane, with a full offseason of practice, could be a fantastic PG.
Quote from: Goose on January 15, 2023, 08:43:46 PM
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


Shark

Face it.. Duane isn't going to get the PG spot over our two resident Senior PG's. This season still has life and college sports aren't like major sports. You don't "rebuild" and simultaneously cast out your senior captains. But I do think Duane will/could be our PG. Watched him at Dominican and he is great at it. Right now on this team he is our undisputed second offensive option. So it's better to have Derrick facilitate our only two guards who can make things happen.

Next year the offensive dynamic and scheme will likely be completely different. But for now Derrick is our point and after him it's Carlino. Wojo believes in rewarding the guys with experience and I honestly have no problem with that.

MU82

If Duane were a cat, he'd groom himself!

Seriously, given everything we know right this second, Duane is next season's PG. There are no other options.

There is no reason he can't continue to be used how he is being used this season, though. He gets a few opportunities to run the point, more opportunities to play off the ball and plenty of time on the court. That, combined with all the work he'll do during the offseason, will be plenty of preparation for him.

I have no problem with the way Wojo is using him -- or Derrick. I have not been the biggest fan of Derrick's game, but I think his strengths have helped the team more than his liabilities have hurt it this season.

We can't use his shooting percentage to hammer him last year and then conveniently avoid mentioning that it is better than Carlino's, Duane's, Jajuan's and Taylor's this season -- and that even his 3-point percentage is better than Jajuan's.

I still think Derrick plays too many minutes, but, in context, his court time is not as outrageous as it was last season because he is more of a contributor this season.

Besides, coaches simply do not throw their senior captains to the curb. So a former high school player demanding 8 bazillion times that's what Wojo should do is unrealistic.

I mean, I can keep saying Jessica Alba should be my sex toy, but suggesting that's what Jessica is going to do is unrealistic.
"It's not how white men fight." - Tucker Carlson

"Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism." - George Washington

"In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

Juan Anderson's Mixtape

I think Duane Wilson will be a solid PG, but an even better SG.  And if you look at Duke, they have a history of using 2 PG together.  This year it's Tyus Jones & Quinn Cook but you can go all the way back to Jason Williams & Chris Duhon.  And all the guards have PG responsibilities in transition.  Think of the three amigos as seniors.  Anyone of them could grab a rebound, make a steal, or come up with a loose ball and dribble up court as the PG in transition.  I think that's what Wojo wants his teams to be able to do.

Conventional thinking is that whoever gets the inbounds pass after 95% of made baskets and dribbles across half-court or resets the offense is "the PG" but I think Wojo wants all of his guards to be able to score and have some PG responsibilities.

MU82

Quote from: Lazars Headband on January 27, 2015, 07:27:29 AM
I think Duane Wilson will be a solid PG, but an even better SG.  And if you look at Duke, they have a history of using 2 PG together.  This year it's Tyus Jones & Quinn Cook but you can go all the way back to Jason Williams & Chris Duhon.  And all the guards have PG responsibilities in transition.  Think of the three amigos as seniors.  Anyone of them could grab a rebound, make a steal, or come up with a loose ball and dribble up court as the PG in transition.  I think that's what Wojo wants his teams to be able to do.

Conventional thinking is that whoever gets the inbounds pass after 95% of made baskets and dribbles across half-court or resets the offense is "the PG" but I think Wojo wants all of his guards to be able to score and have some PG responsibilities.

Great examples with Wojo's experiences at Duke and reasonable projections for his plans at Marquette.

Unless you have an elite PG -- which we haven't had since Diener, and some might not even bestow "elite" status on him (though I do) -- folks are too into trying to assign labels.

In our Elite 8 year, it was often Junior's job to hand the ball to Vander and get out of the way.

And go ahead, name the Bulls' PG during either of their threepeats.
"It's not how white men fight." - Tucker Carlson

"Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism." - George Washington

"In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

brewcity77

Quote from: MU82 on January 27, 2015, 08:57:25 AMAnd go ahead, name the Bulls' PG during either of their threepeats.

John Paxson for the first, Ron Harper for the second, with BJ Armstrong getting some good minutes.

MerrittsMustache

Quote from: MU82 on January 27, 2015, 08:57:25 AM
And go ahead, name the Bulls' PG during either of their threepeats.

Good point. I mean, if Marquette had the greatest player in college basketball history, a top 25 all-time player as well as the greatest coach in college basketball history, then the PG position would be less important.

Lennys Tap

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 27, 2015, 09:00:40 AM
John Paxson for the first, Ron Harper for the second, with BJ Armstrong getting some good minutes.

And that's 82's point. Paxson, Harper, BJ and Steve Kerr were called point guards, but they were really shooting or combo guards. Pippen and Jordan dominated the ball.

Nukem2

Quote from: MU82 on January 27, 2015, 08:57:25 AM
Great examples with Wojo's experiences at Duke and reasonable projections for his plans at Marquette.

Unless you have an elite PG -- which we haven't had since Diener, and some might not even bestow "elite" status on him (though I do) -- folks are too into trying to assign labels.

In our Elite 8 year, it was often Junior's job to hand the ball to Vander and get out of the way.

And go ahead, name the Bulls' PG during either of their threepeats.
I think Dominic James would be considered an elite level collegiate PG.  Had he not fractured his foot, MU had a real chance to go to the Final 4 his senior season.

MU82

Quote from: Nukem2 on January 27, 2015, 09:16:23 AM
I think Dominic James would be considered an elite level collegiate PG.  Had he not fractured his foot, MU had a real chance to go to the Final 4 his senior season.

Fair enough. How quickly I forget!

Dom wasn't an elite shooter, nor really an elite scorer, but he made those around him better for sure.
"It's not how white men fight." - Tucker Carlson

"Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism." - George Washington

"In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

MU82

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 27, 2015, 09:03:39 AM
Good point. I mean, if Marquette had the greatest player in college basketball history, a top 25 all-time player as well as the greatest coach in college basketball history, then the PG position would be less important.


No need to get snarky. It was just an example of how teams need not necessarily settle on labeled positions. As the poster who talked about Duke's recent backcourts explained.

Unless we recruit a JUCO or grad student, we probably will have a combo of Duane, Cohen, Cheatham, NN (if applicable), etc, on the court, with each taking turns dominating the ball and playing off it. And absent a true stud PG, that probably would be a good thing.
"It's not how white men fight." - Tucker Carlson

"Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism." - George Washington

"In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

4everwarriors

Quote from: MU82 on January 27, 2015, 05:35:22 AM
If Duane were a cat, he'd groom himself!

Seriously, given everything we know right this second, Duane is next season's PG. There are no other options.

There is no reason he can't continue to be used how he is being used this season, though. He gets a few opportunities to run the point, more opportunities to play off the ball and plenty of time on the court. That, combined with all the work he'll do during the offseason, will be plenty of preparation for him.

I have no problem with the way Wojo is using him -- or Derrick. I have not been the biggest fan of Derrick's game, but I think his strengths have helped the team more than his liabilities have hurt it this season.

We can't use his shooting percentage to hammer him last year and then conveniently avoid mentioning that it is better than Carlino's, Duane's, Jajuan's and Taylor's this season -- and that even his 3-point percentage is better than Jajuan's.

I still think Derrick plays too many minutes, but, in context, his court time is not as outrageous as it was last season because he is more of a contributor this season.

Besides, coaches simply do not throw their senior captains to the curb. So a former high school player demanding 8 bazillion times that's what Wojo should do is unrealistic.

I mean, I can keep saying Jessica Alba should be my sex toy, but suggesting that's what Jessica is going to do is unrealistic.


Jessica probably got one look at your wallet and your Johnson and said, "thanks,but no thanks," aina?
"Give 'Em Hell, Al"

MerrittsMustache

Quote from: MU82 on January 27, 2015, 09:35:47 AM
No need to get snarky. It was just an example of how teams need not necessarily settle on labeled positions. As the poster who talked about Duke's recent backcourts explained.

Unless we recruit a JUCO or grad student, we probably will have a combo of Duane, Cohen, Cheatham, NN (if applicable), etc, on the court, with each taking turns dominating the ball and playing off it. And absent a true stud PG, that probably would be a good thing.

My apologies. In re-reading the thread more closely, I actually think that we have a similar viewpoint. I misunderstood the context of your comment.

True. The Bulls didn't really have a true PG, let alone an "elite" PG, when they were winning championships. Paxson was a combo guard and Harper was a SG given the PG label. The recent Heat teams also fit this model since I don't think anyone would say that Mario Chalmers "ran the offense." Even recently at MU, they weren't clearing out for the PG and letting him make a play in crunch time. The ball was going to Novak, McNeal, Butler, DJO, Crowder, Blue, etc.

Too many fans still have this idea of basketball players falling neatly into positions PG, SG, SF, PF and C (or 1-5). It doesn't work that way anymore. Sure, it's great to have a Chris Paul and/or a Dwight Howard fill a specific role, but for the most part, players need to have a number of different skills because quite frankly, there just aren't that many Pauls and Howards around. One could even argue that having 4-5 guys on a team who can handle the ball is more valuable than having one dynamic playmaker.


chapman

I've always been a fan of the dynamic point guard, if that's the right word.  Makes plays, might turn it over a bit, but can score and assists are due to driving or garnering significant attention from the defense.  The type Crean always tries to have.  Buzz seemed to be more of a fan of a facilitator - low turnovers, takes what they're given when it comes to scoring,  distributes the ball to the more dynamic wings within the offensive scheme.  Wojo doesn't really get to choose this year when he's got to fill 200 minutes with eight players, most who have limited experience.  If he wants two of the former who are just "guards", he'll get there, but he doesn't have the horses yet.

brewcity77

Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 27, 2015, 09:07:43 AM
And that's 82's point. Paxson, Harper, BJ and Steve Kerr were called point guards, but they were really shooting or combo guards. Pippen and Jordan dominated the ball.

I thought the point was more that they were anonymous. Paxson and BJ were definitely point guards. When MJ retired the first time, BJ started the all-star game at the point the next year. They may not have been prolific point guards because of how Pippen and Jordan dominated the ball, but those two were points. Harper, agreed, a combo guard, and Kerr on that team was really just a three-point shooter off the bench.

While they may have been anonymous to non-Bulls fans, I remember them all pretty vividly, though Paxson definitely stands out for that shot in the desert to capture the third title against Phoenix.

keefe

Quote from: MU82 on January 27, 2015, 05:35:22 AM
If Duane were a cat, he'd groom himself!



Is that the feline equivalent of, "If Duane were a dog, he'd lick his package?"


Death on call

NersEllenson

Quote from: MU82 on January 27, 2015, 05:35:22 AM
If Duane were a cat, he'd groom himself!

Seriously, given everything we know right this second, Duane is next season's PG. There are no other options.

There is no reason he can't continue to be used how he is being used this season, though. He gets a few opportunities to run the point, more opportunities to play off the ball and plenty of time on the court. That, combined with all the work he'll do during the offseason, will be plenty of preparation for him.

I have no problem with the way Wojo is using him -- or Derrick. I have not been the biggest fan of Derrick's game, but I think his strengths have helped the team more than his liabilities have hurt it this season.

We can't use his shooting percentage to hammer him last year and then conveniently avoid mentioning that it is better than Carlino's, Duane's, Jajuan's and Taylor's this season -- and that even his 3-point percentage is better than Jajuan's.

I still think Derrick plays too many minutes, but, in context, his court time is not as outrageous as it was last season because he is more of a contributor this season.

Besides, coaches simply do not throw their senior captains to the curb. So a former high school player demanding 8 bazillion times that's what Wojo should do is unrealistic.

I mean, I can keep saying Jessica Alba should be my sex toy, but suggesting that's what Jessica is going to do is unrealistic.

I can agree with the above statement.  It isn't nearly as atrocious as it was last season.  However, the team desperately needs a 3rd scorer, and everyone knows that won't be Steve, Juan, or evidently Luke against Big East caliber centers - so who does that leave??  JJJ and Cohen.

You can't remove Duane or Carlino.  So which guards minutes can you cut in the hopes to get a 3rd scorer on the floor? 

Again, if we are winning games, no argument.  But, we aren't.  We are losing close games.  The zone mitigates Derrick's best trait - which would be being a solid on ball defender.  The length of JJJ and Sandy would be very beneficial to our zone.

Wojo's insistence to play Derrick 34 minutes a game is where I continue to have a beef.  Not allocating 15-20 of those minutes to Cohen and JJJ is where I absolutely disagree.
"I'm not sure Cadougan would fix the problems on this team. I'm not even convinced he would be better for this team than DeWil is."

BrewCity77, December 8, 2013

TAMU, Knower of Ball

Quote from: Lazars Headband on January 27, 2015, 07:27:29 AM
I think Duane Wilson will be a solid PG, but an even better SG.  And if you look at Duke, they have a history of using 2 PG together.  This year it's Tyus Jones & Quinn Cook but you can go all the way back to Jason Williams & Chris Duhon.  And all the guards have PG responsibilities in transition.  Think of the three amigos as seniors.  Anyone of them could grab a rebound, make a steal, or come up with a loose ball and dribble up court as the PG in transition.  I think that's what Wojo wants his teams to be able to do.

Conventional thinking is that whoever gets the inbounds pass after 95% of made baskets and dribbles across half-court or resets the offense is "the PG" but I think Wojo wants all of his guards to be able to score and have some PG responsibilities.

That's a good point and one I hadn't considered.
Quote from: Goose on January 15, 2023, 08:43:46 PM
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


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