With John Dawson leaving

[#UnleashSean]

No surprise he is transferring, however I've been wondering for a while what this means for his elgibility. Since he played 5(?) minutes against Tennessee Martin is there any chance the NCAA gives him back his 2nd year? If not it was kind of a dick move by Wojo to play Dawson for 5 minutes in garbage time when he had no intention of ever letting him see the floor.

[jsglow]

Respectfully, you've made a couple of unfair assumptions.  First, Wojo might not have been aware of John's plans back in early November.  Second, perhaps upon discussing his future plans they both agreed that John wouldn't see the floor thus improving any chance he had to petition for his eligibility.  I find it very hard to believe that Wojo would intentionally 'dick' anyone.  How does that further his own agenda?  Word gets around.  Thanks for your input to scoop.

[brewcity77]

Right now we don't know. My suspicion is that the staff may have deliberately kept John on the bench in hopes that the NCAA would forgive him the 4 minutes he played and consider this to be his year of sitting out. I suspect this has been in the works for awhile.

[jsheim]

Right now we don't know. My suspicion is that the staff may have deliberately kept John on the bench in hopes that the NCAA would forgive him the 4 minutes he played and consider this to be his year of sitting out. I suspect this has been in the works for awhile.

I appreciate this line of thought. I've always had the opinion that Dawson was a good kid and had d1 talent...but from the beginning sensed he was out of place and maybe should have gone to the lobos or somewhere more familiar to him. I know we have guys from farther away...but it was just a sense.

I remember going to a summer league game in town with various MU players. He was sitting against the wall and really gave me the time-of-day when I said hi. Nice conversation with a good kid.  I hope he finds a good place to land. God bless him.

[chapman]

UW had a player compete in a couple of exhibitions during a redshirt year and the NCAA had him sit out a couple games this year.  Possibly, and hopefully that could be the case for Dawson as well.  Eligible mid-Dec next year, but sitting another game or two to nullify the four minutes.  Then again, we're talking the NCAA.

[NersEllenson]

Right now we don't know. My suspicion is that the staff may have deliberately kept John on the bench in hopes that the NCAA would forgive him the 4 minutes he played and consider this to be his year of sitting out. I suspect this has been in the works for awhile.

Not true. He only decided to transfer in the last week after riding the pine for the last 7 games.

You guys, please stop acting as if Wojo was trying to do John any favors - he wasn't.  Wojo ultimately got what he wanted.  Wojo isn't a freaking rube and idiot - he knows you nail someone to the bench its going to cause a lot of discontent.

Respectfully, you've made a couple of unfair assumptions.  First, Wojo might not have been aware of John's plans back in early November.  Second, perhaps upon discussing his future plans they both agreed that John wouldn't see the floor thus improving any chance he had to petition for his eligibility.  I find it very hard to believe that Wojo would intentionally 'dick' anyone.  How does that further his own agenda?  Word gets around.  Thanks for your input to scoop.

Again - John had NO Plans of transferring back in November.  

[jsglow]

Ners, if my post suggested that John had made a decision in early November, I acknowledge that I misspoke.  I agree that it is most likely that his lack of playing time caused John to reach a decision over the last 60 days.  But it must be acknowledged that MU has played exactly zero 'garbage' time since the UT-Martin game.  It also seems reasonable to me that Wojo saw John only in that role, at least for now.  He's the coach and that's his prerogative.  Lastly, it's not unreasonable to think that the two might have talked over these last weeks and reached an understanding.  Thanks.

[brandx]

Again - John had NO Plans of transferring back in November.
 

David Dawson Tuesday that his son's decision to transfer has been a discussion within the family for some time after they "saw the handwriting on the wall when the changes came early on during the year."

[wadesworld]

Not true. He only decided to transfer in the last week after riding the pine for the last 7 games.

You guys, please stop acting as if Wojo was trying to do John any favors - he wasn't.  Wojo ultimately got what he wanted.  Wojo isn't a freaking rube and idiot - he knows you nail someone to the bench its going to cause a lot of discontent.

Again - John had NO Plans of transferring back in November.  

So then how is Wojo out to screw John over?  That doesn't fit your narrative.  If Wojo was out to screw John over then John would've known he wanted to transfer before the season started and Wojo would've said, "Cool, you're going to play 4 minutes in our first game and never play again.  That's what I think of you wanting to transfer."

The fact of the matter is that Wojo was going to give all of the guys a chance with a clean slate to stick around and see if they can be a valuable part of the program, and all of the players decided they would give Wojo to prove he was the right coach for them.  Unfortunately for Marquette, Wojo, John, and Deonte, the relationship between Wojo and John and Deonte didn't work out and the 3 are moving on accordingly.  Wojo had 9 guys and whether John proved he deserved more minutes or not, chances are that at some point John would've had to play some minutes at some point.  Redshirting a kid with 9 scholarship players on the team?  Another brilliant idea by Ners.  There is no conspiracy theory here.  There was no attempt by Wojo to screw those 2 over.  It simply didn't work out.  That's how it goes sometimes.  Quit trying to make it more than it is.  2 coaches have decided the 2 aren't doing enough to earn the minutes they wanted.  That would be an awful big coincidence and 2 complete d!cks to make that work out.  Or 2 division 1 head men's basketball coaches both attempting to intentionally lose games/throw seasons, 1 of which is a 1st year head coach who some people think is trying to prove he is worth of following in Coach K's footsteps.  Again, completely brilliant ideas here brought to us all by Ners.  He is right, we really are clueless and only the high school varsity basketball stud Ners can understand these things.

[NersEllenson]

Ners, if my post suggested that John had made a decision in early November, I acknowledge that I misspoke.  I agree that it is most likely that his lack of playing time caused John to reach a decision over the last 60 days.  But it must be acknowledged that MU has played exactly zero 'garbage' time since the UT-Martin game.  It also seems reasonable to me that Wojo saw John only in that role, at least for now.  He's the coach and that's his prerogative.  Lastly, it's not unreasonable to think that the two might have talked over these last weeks and reached an understanding.  Thanks.

I agree Wojo is the coach and it is his prerogative as to how he wants to handle minutes and situations. 

David Dawson Tuesday that his son's decision to transfer has been a discussion within the family for some time after they "saw the handwriting on the wall when the changes came early on during the year."

Yes, as soon as John was nailed to the bench in the games right after TN Martin - I'm sure the family did wonder WTF.  And that handwriting on the wall was - "We aren't very high on John."  So, the family begins to evaluate to stay or go - and then after 7 more DNP's - it was then finally decided, "We're out."

If you are the Dawson's, and your son has been given or "earned" 1 game of 30+ minutes in his college career, against a decent team, with good guards, on the road - and he plays his best at absolute crunch time  - would you not think he's capable of playing at this level, and not just during garbage time?

[esotericmindguy]

What did a 2 star kid think when he came to a major D1 program? That he'd play his first two years? The patience level of these kids is pretty poor.

[NersEllenson]

So then how is Wojo out to screw John over?  That doesn't fit your narrative.  If Wojo was out to screw John over then John would've known he wanted to transfer before the season started and Wojo would've said, "Cool, you're going to play 4 minutes in our first game and never play again.  That's what I think of you wanting to transfer."

The fact of the matter is that Wojo was going to give all of the guys a chance with a clean slate to stick around and see if they can be a valuable part of the program, and all of the players decided they would give Wojo to prove he was the right coach for them.  Unfortunately for Marquette, Wojo, John, and Deonte, the relationship between Wojo and John and Deonte didn't work out and the 3 are moving on accordingly.  Wojo had 9 guys and whether John proved he deserved more minutes or not, chances are that at some point John would've had to play some minutes at some point.  Redshirting a kid with 9 scholarship players on the team?  Another brilliant idea by Ners.  There is no conspiracy theory here.  There was no attempt by Wojo to screw those 2 over.  It simply didn't work out.  That's how it goes sometimes.  Quit trying to make it more than it is.  2 coaches have decided the 2 aren't doing enough to earn the minutes they wanted.  That would be an awful big coincidence and 2 complete d!cks to make that work out.  Or 2 division 1 head men's basketball coaches both attempting to intentionally lose games/throw seasons, 1 of which is a 1st year head coach who some people think is trying to prove he is worth of following in Coach K's footsteps.  Again, completely brilliant ideas here brought to us all by Ners.  He is right, we really are clueless and only the high school varsity basketball stud Ners can understand these things.

Wades - I NEVER suggested Dawson redshirt...please...get a few of your buddies here to help you search my post history and quote where I ever said Dawson should redshirt, or the staff may want to redshirt Dawson.  NEVER posted that.

And guess what - Coaches don't always get it right.  Whether that is a the 5th grade level, Varsity, D-3, High-Major or Pros.  We'll see how it plays out. I'm quite confident Burton and Dawson will have nice careers elsewhere.

Part of a coaches job is to be able to extract the talent that is there, and get the buy-in to happen.  Apparently, that failed in the case of Burton and Wojo.  As far as Dawson/Wojo - Wojo simply must have felt he wasn't very good.  That's fine.  I disagree with him.  We'll see how John fares elsewhere.  Perhaps he really does suck as you and some others are convinced he does.

[WarriorInNYC]

Whatever happened to players that dont accrue much playing time as underclassmen and then earn that time as upperclassmen?

I highly doubt that Wojo not playing Dawson meant he is completely down on him.  Just that he does not think that Dawson is currently able to produce effective minutes for this team.  If Dawson was to continue to practice and improve and earn those minutes, Wojo would give them.  Whether that improvement comes before the next game, in conference play, or next year.

You guys, please stop acting as if Wojo was trying to do John any favors - he wasn't.  Wojo ultimately got what he wanted.  Wojo isn't a freaking rube and idiot - he knows you nail someone to the bench its going to cause a lot of discontent.

I will not buy this argument above.  Not at all.  I just dont think he wanted John to transfer, but knew it was a possibility if John wanted playing time immediately.

[wadesworld]

Wades - I NEVER suggested Dawson redshirt...please...get a few of your buddies here to help you search my post history and quote where I ever said Dawson should redshirt, or the staff may want to redshirt Dawson.  NEVER posted that.

And guess what - Coaches don't always get it right.  Whether that is a the 5th grade level, Varsity, D-3, High-Major or Pros.  We'll see how it plays out. I'm quite confident Burton and Dawson will have nice careers elsewhere.

Part of a coaches job is to be able to extract the talent that is there, and get the buy-in to happen.  Apparently, that failed in the case of Burton and Wojo.  As far as Dawson/Wojo - Wojo simply must have felt he wasn't very good.  That's fine.  I disagree with him.  We'll see how John fares elsewhere.  Perhaps he really does suck as you and some others are convinced he does.

Then what's your obsession with the 4 minutes that John played and being convinced Wojo screwed him over with that?  You apparently have heard directly from the horse's mouth, or the horse's family's mouth, that John did not know he was transferring until the last week or 2.  So how in the world is Wojo playing John for 4 minutes in our first game screwing him over?  You are suggesting that Wojo playing John the 4 minutes that he did is going to result in John losing an entire year of eligibility, which he would only get if...you guessed it!  He redshirted!

Wojo apparently thought that John was the 9th man on a 9 man roster so far this season.  So what do you expect?  He's not going to see a ton of minutes in tight games, and we've played in a total of 0 blowouts this season.  I would pray that our head basketball coach isn't going to just give minutes to guys who he doesn't think is going to help our team win basketball games just for the sake of giving them minutes, and risk winning basketball games as a result.  Apparently you want otherwise.

[Nevada233]

What did a 2 star kid think when he came to a major D1 program? That he'd play his first two years? The patience level of these kids is pretty poor.

I know one should have the patience of a Grandmother, especially when practicing, traveling, catching flights, all while taking a full class load and working hard to sit on the bench and never even take your warmup off behind the future Lottery Pick and Wooden Award Watch Point Guard #12.. Or wait to get garbage time next year with a Top 5 class coming in.............. Tell me more about it...

[madtownwarrior]

Any chance Ners can transfer with Dawson?

[onepost]

I know one should have the patience of a Grandmother, especially when practicing, traveling, catching flights, all while taking a full class load and working hard to sit on the bench and never even take your warmup off behind the future Lottery Pick and Wooden Award Watch Point Guard #12.. Or wait to get garbage time next year with a Top 5 class coming in.............. Tell me more about it...

Yeah this is starting to make me feel weird.....

[brewcity77]

If you are the Dawson's, and your son has been given or "earned" 1 game of 30+ minutes in his college career, against a decent team, with good guards, on the road - and he plays his best at absolute crunch time  - would you not think he's capable of playing at this level, and not just during garbage time?

Jumping Jesus on a pogo stick, can you please let this silly defense go? The guy had a great game against Georgetown. No one disputes that. But you can't keep running back to one great game and say it's indicative of the player as a whole.

[NersEllenson]

Jumping Jesus on a pogo stick, can you please let this silly defense go? The guy had a great game against Georgetown. No one disputes that. But you can't keep running back to one great game and say it's indicative of the player as a whole.

What we can say is that we have AMPLE evidence as to what type of player the guy in front of him is as a whole.  We also know the backup shoots the basketball MUCH better from everywhere on the court.  We also know we aren't playing man to man this year, which eliminates the vets best asset as a player.  WE also know all of the guards have been fairly inconsistent.  We also know all have gotten opportunity to play in games.

The point is, you have limited game sample of what Dawson can do - but to suggest he's a garbage time only player, seems a little suspect at best.  Usually garbage time players aren't too clutch on the road in OT, and score 7 points on 1 made 3, 1 made mid range, and 2 made FT's (all with no misses.)

There were other moments John showed a nice feel for the game.  Davante said at media day last season he was the best freshman.  Buzz decided to play John more minutes than JJJ in conference last season.

Again, if you chopped up Derrick's, JJJ, Cohen, Jake, or Duane's playing time into roughly 3 stints of 3-4 minutes, what type of production do you really think you'd see?

Then what's your obsession with the 4 minutes that John played and being convinced Wojo screwed him over with that?  You apparently have heard directly from the horse's mouth, or the horse's family's mouth, that John did not know he was transferring until the last week or 2.  So how in the world is Wojo playing John for 4 minutes in our first game screwing him over?  You are suggesting that Wojo playing John the 4 minutes that he did is going to result in John losing an entire year of eligibility, which he would only get if...you guessed it!  He redshirted!

Wojo apparently thought that John was the 9th man on a 9 man roster so far this season.  So what do you expect?  He's not going to see a ton of minutes in tight games, and we've played in a total of 0 blowouts this season.  I would pray that our head basketball coach isn't going to just give minutes to guys who he doesn't think is going to help our team win basketball games just for the sake of giving them minutes, and risk winning basketball games as a result.  Apparently you want otherwise.

See above.  And no, you can't salvage a year of eligibility with a red shirt due to playing 4 minutes.  Not sure what your point is? 

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

The point is, you have limited game sample of what Dawson can do - but to suggest he's a garbage time only player, seems a little suspect at best.  Usually garbage time players aren't too clutch on the road in OT, and score 7 points on 1 made 3, 1 made mid range, and 2 made FT's (all with no misses.)

I think the garbage time comment comes from the fact that he did not play a whole lot of meaningful minutes for two separate coaches following that moment. 

Continuing this line of bickering really has the opposite impact than I think you desired - it is making JD look petty as opposed to the good kid he was.  Maybe John got screwed maybe not -- I like the kid, but ultimately trust the coach to put the best team on the floor. 

College sports are littered with kids who had a good game or even a few -- I hope John is not one of them and wish him luck that he proves himself elsewhere.

[Lighthouse 84]

I know one should have the patience of a Grandmother, especially when practicing, traveling, catching flights, all while taking a full class load and working hard to sit on the bench and never even take your warmup off behind the future Lottery Pick and Wooden Award Watch Point Guard #12.. Or wait to get garbage time next year with a Top 5 class coming in.............. Tell me more about it...

Just curious, what happened to this, when jesmu84 asked?

Quote from: jesmu84 on December 06, 2014, 01:31:40 PM
If Dawson transfers, will you stop posting?

You bring a lot to this board, granted. But every now and then you post things like this. With no provocation. And many other problems with many players today.

Done Deal!

[Nevada233]

Just curious, what happened to this, when jesmu84 asked?

Quote from: jesmu84 on December 06, 2014, 01:31:40 PM
If Dawson transfers, will you stop posting?

You bring a lot to this board, granted. But every now and then you post things like this. With no provocation. And many other problems with many players today.

Done Deal!

ok and?

[NersEllenson]

I think the garbage time comment comes from the fact that he did not play a whole lot of meaningful minutes for two separate coaches following that moment. 

Continuing this line of bickering really has the opposite impact than I think you desired - it is making JD look petty as opposed to the good kid he was.  Maybe John got screwed maybe not -- I like the kid, but ultimately trust the coach to put the best team on the floor. 

College sports are littered with kids who had a good game or even a few -- I hope John is not one of them and wish him luck that he proves himself elsewhere.

I always respect your post Frenns as you are quite level headed.  And you may very well be correct on this matter.  However, coaches have a long history of riding a vet too long that they like, admire, respect, that does everything right (other than produce on the court.)  Also, coaches have different motivation tactics - sometimes they work, sometimes they fail.  The bench is considered the biggest motivator - the hope being that it spark what you are looking for out of the player as a coach.  Unfortunately I guess for John and Deonte, they weren't motivated properly by that tactic, nor did it apparently bring out the best in them to earn more time.

[GGGG]

I guess we will just have to see how either of them are once they go elsewhere.  Maybe that will settle the playing time debate once and for all.

[brewcity77]

What we can say is that we have AMPLE evidence as to what type of player the guy in front of him is as a whole.  We also know the backup shoots the basketball MUCH better from everywhere on the court.  We also know we aren't playing man to man this year, which eliminates the vets best asset as a player.  WE also know all of the guards have been fairly inconsistent.  We also know all have gotten opportunity to play in games.

We do. Derrick is a flawed player, but he still has a lot of attributes. I wouldn't say the man defense has eliminated his best asset at all, however. He's been one of our best defenders in the zone, even as longer, more athletic players have struggled to grasp it, and he's the only backcourt player with the physical strength to play both on the perimeter and interior.

The point is, you have limited game sample of what Dawson can do - but to suggest he's a garbage time only player, seems a little suspect at best.  Usually garbage time players aren't too clutch on the road in OT, and score 7 points on 1 made 3, 1 made mid range, and 2 made FT's (all with no misses.)

And usually a player who's not a garbage time player can contribute in more than one game. The GT game was phenomenal. But he had plenty of other opportunities and didn't seize them. If his regular standard of play was what we saw at Georgetown, he would be starting. But it's not.

There were other moments John showed a nice feel for the game.  Davante said at media day last season he was the best freshman.  Buzz decided to play John more minutes than JJJ in conference last season.

I'm not saying John is useless or couldn't be a contributor. But if he's not showing it in practice, why would he get a chance to show it in games? There are definitely two conflicting accounts here. According to Rev. Dawson, the family has been having this discussion since early on in the season. According to you, the decision wasn't made until this week. Maybe both are true, but if these concerns were shared with the coaching staff early on, would you rather (if you were John) burn an entire year of eligibility for garbage time minutes (none of which we've played since UTM) or even 3-5 mpg in meaningful games or have a chance to save an entire year of eligibility to use elsewhere? There is every chance the NCAA would be willing to let John just sit out 1-2 games if he transfers with 4 minutes played in the first game of the season. There is even precedent -- similar to the Dukan situation.

Again, if you chopped up Derrick's, JJJ, Cohen, Jake, or Duane's playing time into roughly 3 stints of 3-4 minutes, what type of production do you really think you'd see?

All of those guys have been bit players at some point in their career. But you have to be willing to go through those periods of small minutes to earn more. I truly think if John stayed he could be a solid backup as an upperclassman. He's choosing to not do that. I honestly believe if Deonte stayed, he would see the game open up for him with the addition of Luke to the roster, and if John stayed, he would see more chances for minutes with the games we have yet to play in December.

Unfortunately, neither of them are willing to do that.