Missing Element

[NersEllenson]

Carlino was our best PG on the floor last night (minus the technical). Duane looked better off the ball than on. Dawson seems to be the 9th man at this point. Cohen is a keeper but will never play SG because of this team's size. JJJ looked like a former top 30 recruit should, but he will have to slide down to the three a lot. Hard to tell what we will get from Derrick, loved the two blocks, hated the two missed FGs.

Based on last night I saw a guard rotation of:

1: Carlino, Derrick, Duane, Dawson
2: JJJ, Duane, Carlino, Dawson
3: Deonte, Cohen, JJJ

Agree for the most part, yet as Nukem just said, doubtful we'll see Dawson at any PG this season.  And in my rotation I'd put Duane ahead of Derrick at PG.

As for Derrick's performance last night...it was a carbon copy of last year.  Feeble attempts going to the basket, gets bailed out with a foul call, misses 2 FT's, has a poor turnover against marginal ball pressure, races back after turnover to negate its damage with the block.  In 13 minutes of a 20 minute half...played 65% of available minutes and well...more of the same as last year.

[Earl Tatum]

Wait n' see--The big man is coming to MU.

[Anti-Dentite]

Agree for the most part, yet as Nukem just said, doubtful we'll see Dawson at any PG this season.  And in my rotation I'd put Duane ahead of Derrick at PG.

As for Derrick's performance last night...it was a carbon copy of last year.  Feeble attempts going to the basket, gets bailed out with a foul call, misses 2 FT's, has a poor turnover against marginal ball pressure, races back after turnover to negate its damage with the block.  In 13 minutes of a 20 minute half...played 65% of available minutes and well...more of the same as last year.

He did have one nice pass into the paint that was converted. That was about it.

[tower912]

Yes, NERs,  when Carlino picked up his 4th foul with several minutes to go, with Deonte already having 4,  I had a moment of anxiety about the rest of the game.   I was worried about people fouling out and possible rotations.    And Duane did do a lot of dribbling at the top of the key while everybody stood still.   None of this has a thing to do with last year or Derrick, other than him being unavailable due to injury.    It pertained to last night's game only.   Nothing bigger.   No sideways implication of anything.    

[NersEllenson]

Yes, NERs,  when Carlino picked up his 4th foul with several minutes to go, with Deonte already having 4,  I had a moment of anxiety about the rest of the game.   I was worried about people fouling out and possible rotations.    And Duane did do a lot of dribbling at the top of the key while everybody stood still.   None of this has a thing to do with last year or Derrick, other than him being unavailable due to injury.    It pertained to last night's game only.   Nothing bigger.   No sideways implication of anything.    

My bad.  I'll have to take you at your word.  But, if you find a lot of dribbling at the top of key troublesome for a PG - I'm just surprised you "supported" that very action all of last season...and wouldn't identify it as the root cause of the team's problems last season.

[brandx]

I'm going to get down on Carlino because of the technical.  I thought he looked real smooth and confident with the ball and did a better job of getting the offense going than Duane or Derrick did.  One of his turnovers was a miscommunication with JJJ (?) and the pass flew out of bounds.  Other than than he was just fine.

I don't think he will end up being a high scorer by the time the season is over, but that's OK.

Carlino is the man at PG. He looked totally in control and showed that if left open, he will take the shot without hesitation. I still think he will be the #2 scorer on this team. He will have games like last night where is doesn't score much, but he is also going to have some 25-point games.

[tower912]

Dude, last year was a whole different kettle of fish.   I thought that Buzz quit running motion in general and was focused on the post up game too much.   Hated the Oxtule experiment.    Advocated starting Burton/JJJ/Mayo in the 5th starting spot.   I thought Derrick and Jake were a bad combination in the backcourt, but thought that JJJ and Dawson, AS FRESHMEN, AS THE STARTING GUARDS didn't offer us a better chance to win.  No conspiracy.   We differed about the causes for last year's malaise.    
This stalker crap and turning every single thread into some kind of referendum and battle against 'your adversaries', 'idiots' has to stop.   You are sapping all of the enjoyment out of this board.   Let it frickin go.   Move on.  

This year's team has 9 guys now, 10 in a month.   Everybody needs to contribute.   Each and every player has a role and a responsibility.    Last year's battles are over.    GOING FORWARD, I still see Derrick being the starter at the point when healthy for the foreseeable future for the following reasons (which I stated in another thread).
1.   Senior co-captain has Wojo's trust.   As you have stated (and I stated months ago), there is a bit of a kinship there.
2.  He only plays the point, whereas Duane and Carlino can both play off of the ball.  
3.  Lack of depth.   There are going to be a lot of 3 guard sets and probably some 4 guard sets due to foul trouble and lack of size.    Derrick with Carlino/Duane/JJJ all moving around off of the ball actually makes a lot of sense.  

[GGGG]

LOL - And my exact point was - things don't stop because those on your side of the aisle keep perpetuating it with ridiculous statements - such as what Tower offered up all game long and thereafter about "the offense bogging down with Duane running point."  Made a post to the effect of with Derrick being out in the second half we had our work cut out for us, etc.

Point is, if you are going to take issue with Duane's performance in his first college basketball game about things "bogging down" with him running the point - that is freaking ludicrous - as it's always been bogged down with Derrick running it, and last night was no better.

It isn't obsessing.  It's pointing out the irony and idiocy of suggesting "the offense bogged down" with Duane running the point.  Even if there was a shred of truth to that - you can't go into negative numbers - the offense buzzing along at exactly 0 vibrancy, and then Duane comes in and we go to negative vibrancy.  Please.  To try to allude/imply such is ridiculous. 

Jesus Christ on a pogo-stick.

People can say that they felt the offense bogged down with Duane on the floor when compared to Carlino WITHOUT IRONY, because NEITHER was on the floor last year.  And both are better options than Derrick - I don't think you will find much disagreement with that.

Last year was last year.  This year is this year.  It it THAT hard to figure out?

[NersEllenson]

Jesus Christ on a pogo-stick.

People can say that they felt the offense bogged down with Duane on the floor when compared to Carlino WITHOUT IRONY, because NEITHER was on the floor last year.  And both are better options than Derrick - I don't think you will find much disagreement with that.

Last year was last year.  This year is this year.  It it THAT hard to figure out?

No more difficult to figure out than what the problem was last year.  And people championing for 20+ minutes of that THIS SEASON seems ludicrous.  Thanks for asking. 

Now get off your pogo stick God.

[keefe]

Henry is BIG. Matt has size. But, Henry is big.

... but defensively he can bang. Big kid. Really big.

How do you know such things?

[keefe]

Carlino is the man at PG. He looked totally in control and showed that if left open, he will take the shot without hesitation. I still think he will be the #2 scorer on this team. He will have games like last night where is doesn't score much, but he is also going to have some 25-point games.

I think this is an accurate look at Carlino. It was refreshing to see a guard who creates through distribution. He can play and we need him more than people realize. I am thankful he chose Marquette.

[forgetful]

Carlino was our best PG on the floor last night (minus the technical). Duane looked better off the ball than on. Dawson seems to be the 9th man at this point. Cohen is a keeper but will never play SG because of this team's size. JJJ looked like a former top 30 recruit should, but he will have to slide down to the three a lot. Hard to tell what we will get from Derrick, loved the two blocks, hated the two missed FGs.

Based on last night I saw a guard rotation of:

1: Carlino, Derrick, Duane, Dawson
2: JJJ, Duane, Carlino, Dawson
3: Deonte, Cohen, JJJ

I completely agree with this assessment.  Carlino played very well...minus the technical.

[TheBurrEffect]

Unfortunately I couldn't watch the game and won't be able to get to it on my DVR until late tonight but I have a hard time believing Carlino was playing selfish ball, not getting others involved, and was whining because he couldn't shoot when he shot 4 of 9 in 27 minutes with 7 assists and just 2 turnovers. Like I said after Madness, the kid has it and I'm really glad he decided to come to MU. He's a really nice addition.

Carlino had 7 assists and ran the offense well, no idea what that dude is talking about.

[BallBoy]

Aren't you the same guy that DOESN'T feel the offense bogs down with Derrick running the point?

I'm confused.  I never recall our offense looking vibrant with Derrick running things, and it certainly didn't last night either.  At this point:

For PG:  Carlino>Duane>Derrick

For SG:  JJJ>Cohen>Duane>Dawson

Aren't you the same guy who was touting Magic Dawson at point?  When I told you last season Dawson's more natural and better position was shooting guard you told me that your playing at the "highest levels" meant you knew more about basketball. Now you don't even list Dawson in the PG equation or was it to hard for you to put >Dawson after Derrick?

Here is what we know so far...unlike last year, Wojo has more viable options at PG and he is going to use them.

I don't see the original poster comparing Duane to Derrick or stating that Derrick was a better option but only that in this game it appeared that the offense slowed down with Duane at point.  This could be for a variety of reasons unrelated to Duane's skillset.

[jesmu84]

Here is what we know so far...unlike last year, Wojo has more viable options at PG and he is going to use them.

I don't see the original poster comparing Duane to Derrick or stating that Derrick was a better option but only that in this game it appeared that the offense slowed down with Duane at point.  This could be for a variety of reasons unrelated to Duane's skillset.

Clarity

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

How do you know such things?

Bravo Keefe. Way to insert this and penetrate the conversation with some humor.

[NersEllenson]

Aren't you the same guy who was touting Magic Dawson at point?  When I told you last season Dawson's more natural and better position was shooting guard you told me that your playing at the "highest levels" meant you knew more about basketball. Now you don't even list Dawson in the PG equation or was it to hard for you to put >Dawson after Derrick?

Here is what we know so far...unlike last year, Wojo has more viable options at PG and he is going to use them.

I don't see the original poster comparing Duane to Derrick or stating that Derrick was a better option but only that in this game it appeared that the offense slowed down with Duane at point.  This could be for a variety of reasons unrelated to Duane's skillset.

I'd never have disagreed with anyone who would have said Dawson's best* position would be 2 guard - my argument all of last season and one I still believe - even if Dawson were played out of position at PG last season, he would have been a hell of a lot better option than Derrick - for many reasons, but the most basic of which is that the opposition would have needed to guard him all over the floor, which would have greatly helped our biggest weapon (Davante) be even more productive.  Additionally, Dawson sees the floor better than Derrick.  

We saw what Derrick's O rating's would look like if he got 13 minutes a game - his stat line from last night was fairly par for the course, although a little light on assists - but in 13 minutes he compiled a 22 O-Rating.  Even a blind squirrel can find a nut and when you play 30+ minutes every game you are going to get a few assists.

As for Wojo not having Dawson play the point this season - its a coaching decision -he sees him as a 2 or possible 3 in emergent situations.  He has Carlino and Duane available, who can also play the 1 - so no need for John to be a 1.  Derrick's only position is PG, as he's never going to play shooting guard or primarily off the ball...because he can't shoot, or penetrate, or finish effectively at the rack.

And btw - the offense didn't slow down with Duane at the Point last night - that was simply an opinion, and a wrong one at that.

[GGGG]

We saw what Derrick's O rating's would look like if he got 13 minutes a game - his stat line from last night was fairly par for the course, although a little light on assists - but in 13 minutes he compiled a 22 O-Rating.  Even a blind squirrel can find a nut and when you play 30+ minutes every game you are going to get a few assists.

You are the same guy that discounted Dawson's OR from last year saying that the sample size was too small.  Yet now you are bringing up Derrick's OR from one half of one game.  Yet my guess is that you will somehow discount the fact that Dawson had a worse OR than Derrick did in the very same half of the very same game.

And btw - the offense didn't slow down with Duane at the Point last night - that was simply an opinion, and a wrong one at that.

How is the opinion "wrong?"  Are we supposed to rely on the same "Ners Eye Test" that resulted in Magic Dawson?

No thanks.

[NersEllenson]

You are the same guy that discounted Dawson's OR from last year saying that the sample size was too small.  Yet now you are bringing up Derrick's OR from one half of one game.  Yet my guess is that you will somehow discount the fact that Dawson had a worse OR than Derrick did in the very same half of the very same game.

How is the opinion "wrong?"  Are we supposed to rely on the same "Ners Eye Test" that resulted in Magic Dawson?

No thanks.

LOL-  See how these things get perpetuated.  Follow some of your own advice Sultan - LET IT GO.  Drop it. 

Your argument you make in this post is one of the weakest you've ever authored.  Usually you make solid, logical, well informed arguments - in this case - it's so flawed I'm not going to point out all of the areas for two reasons:  1) To not continue this "debate" that I seem to get blamed for by 5 of you here.  2) Because I have no interest in humiliating you.

But here's a hint:  They don't assign an O-Rating to player who plays less than 10 minutes in a game.  Dawson played 4.

[GGGG]

LOL-  See how these things get perpetuated.  Follow some of your own advice Sultan - LET IT GO.  Drop it. 

Your argument you make in this post is one of the weakest you've ever authored.  Usually you make solid, logical, well informed arguments - in this case - it's so flawed I'm not going to point out all of the areas for two reasons:  1) To not continue this "debate" that I seem to get blamed for by 5 of you here.  2) Because I have no interest in humiliating you.

But here's a hint:  They don't assign an O-Rating to player who plays less than 10 minutes in a game.  Dawson played 4.

Ah.  Thank you.

But that brings up another point.  I guess the new head coach that you think is great didn't see fit to play Magic more than four minutes.  Much less than he played the guy with the low OR.

Mindf*cking I guess...

[Nevada233]

LOL-  See how these things get perpetuated.  Follow some of your own advice Sultan - LET IT GO.  Drop it. 

Your argument you make in this post is one of the weakest you've ever authored.  Usually you make solid, logical, well informed arguments - in this case - it's so flawed I'm not going to point out all of the areas for two reasons:  1) To not continue this "debate" that I seem to get blamed for by 5 of you here.  2) Because I have no interest in humiliating you.

But here's a hint:  They don't assign an O-Rating to player who plays less than 10 minutes in a game.  Dawson played 4.

All I can say is the last time Dawson played 20+ Minutes in a game it was VS Georgetown.

He hasn't had an opportunity to fail or succeed and Marquette honestly.
If you count spot minutes here and there then fine but I cannot draw a conclusion off of someone who is not getting any playing time.

Baylor, Creighton, New Mexico, Fresno State and Texas Tech all recruited him and im sure its not because he's a nice guy.

[Jay Bee]

But here's a hint:  They don't assign an O-Rating to player who plays less than 10 minutes in a game.  Dawson played 4.

Ugh. Please be accurate on this so others aren't confused.

An ORtg is a calculation and can be made for anyone playing in a basketball game that records stats.

Some* people don't like to highlight the ORtg of players playing less than X minutes in a game or X% minutes in a season because the results are so sensitive to small play occurrences.

It does not mean that ORtg's aren't able to be calculated, but if you're running a system that automatically calculates an ORtg there are reasons not to include for guys who play just a few minutes in a game. That also DOES NOT mean their ORtg isn't relevant for a game... just need to look at the specifics.

[wadesworld]

All I can say is the last time Dawson played 20+ Minutes in a game it was VS Georgetown.

He hasn't had an opportunity to fail or succeed and Marquette honestly.
If you count spot minutes here and there then fine but I cannot draw a conclusion off of someone who is not getting any playing time.

Baylor, Creighton, New Mexico, Fresno State and Texas Tech all recruited him and im sure its not because he's a nice guy.

So what you're suggesting is that not 1 but 2 guys who are being paid literally millions of dollars (and their multiple assistants who help them make these decisions) to determine whether someone is good enough to play these minutes and who see these kids in practice 10-20 hours/week have determined he isn't good enough to play minutes over these other guys, but we can't come to that conclusion because we haven't seen him play enough. Well then, you must've played high school basketball.

[bilsu]

Yes, NERs,  when Carlino picked up his 4th foul with several minutes to go, with Deonte already having 4,  I had a moment of anxiety about the rest of the game.   I was worried about people fouling out and possible rotations.    And Duane did do a lot of dribbling at the top of the key while everybody stood still.   None of this has a thing to do with last year or Derrick, other than him being unavailable due to injury.    It pertained to last night's game only.   Nothing bigger.   No sideways implication of anything.    

Carlino got the techinacal for his fourth foul, which resulted in Duane coming in. Duane immediately drove to the basket and missed a very difficult layup. Tenn-Martin then missed their shot and the rebound bounced long to the backcourt and Duane Wilson should of easily had it with his quickness, but just stood there as a UT guy ran and got it. Duane has a lot of talent, but he still has a lot to learn. However, his stat line was better than Koenig's Friday night

[MU82]

Baylor, Creighton, New Mexico, Fresno State and Texas Tech all recruited him and im sure its not because he's a nice guy.

Given how he likely will be used this season and the talent we have coming in for 2015-16, I think it's possible that Dawson might opt to give one of those schools a try.

If he thinks he can help Marquette and/or he is enjoying the overall Marquette experience and he stays, I will be thrilled. If he wants to go elsewhere for playing time, that would be completely understandable. I hope for the best for him -- and for all of our guys.