Todd Mayo is no longer with Marquette!

[GGGG]

Last question for you:  Do you really believe Buzz turned in a good coaching performance last season?  And if so, why?  If not, why?

This is really the only part I am going to address because I have dealt with the rest already.  I think Buzz's coaching job last year was not as good as previous years because the motivational technique of busting players balls didn't work, and he didn't seem to have a back up plan.  In the past he had leaders for which that worked...the Amigos, Lazar, JFB, Jae and DJO, Vander and Junior.  Mentally strong players who "got Buzz," and that those leaders lead by example.  Last year's team needed a different approach.  The guys who "got Buzz" weren't as good on the floor, while the new guys like JJJ and JD, seemed to shrink from the approach.

I think tactically he approached the season like he didn't most of the others.

[Jay Bee]

Nice find JayBee - Well...the 3 point shooting greatly skews a players ORating...

Wragge?  10.4ppg in 27mpg.  132 ORtg with usage of 14.2%  Shot 47% from 3 point land. 

Jake was serviceable - yet not a 30 mpg player.  Not when Mayo only got 23.

The bigger issue was the combination of Derrick and Jake for max minutes.  Will you be finding me an example of a player who played more minutes than Derrick at the Guard position who made less than 1, 3pt shot on less than 7% shooting, combined with 43% FT shooting?  Good luck.

The pairing was awful. One guy can't make a 3, to save his life, the other guy can't make a 2 to save his life, and those are your max minute guards.

Lol...
Step 1 - throw out a bs claim (inferred) and challenge a guy to dispute it
Step 2 - bs claim easily shot down by a third party
Step 3 - come up with an entirely different challenge

"Good luck"

Come on, bud. Get real.

[Warrior Code]

#GetReal

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Yes - that is how I view opinions generally speaking.  It is usual evident who has played the game at the high school level or above, based on their take.  As I said, doesn't mean those of you who haven't played the game don't make good points too.  But, like I also said, I'd never critique a piano player, baritone player, or any other player of an instrument as to what they could do better, or what the conductor of the band could do better to make them perform better - as I have no real experience playing those instruments, or being a band member.

Yes, you see cases in basketball (more common in baseball) where the player personnel guys are not former players - yet why do you think most college and pro basketball teams have former players as head coaches?  Same in baseball, hockey and football. 

Would you really have a great deal of respect for my takes on how the MU band could improve?  What the conductor has been doing right/wrong? 

Thank you for answering the question. I think your premise is reasonable. But you VASTLY overestimate the value of playing basketball at the high school level. Especially when that experience was over 20 years ago when the game has changed so much. I also think you VASTLY underestimate the value of studying the game as many on here have. You have fans who spend at least an hour or more a day reading about and studying college basketball. You also have posters like Chicos and Keefe who have had interactions and conversations with some of the greats in college basketball. You have others like JayBee and Freeport who spend lots of time following the college recruiting scene. You have numbers gurus like Henry Sugar. Then you have posters like myself and I believe other scoopers who work in college athletics and spend every day working with college basketball players.

To use your music example, a music critic who has spent years listening to and studying music but has never played an instrument has more credibility than a kid who played in a high school band and hasn't been playing in an organized band for the last 20 years.

I think it would go a long way to helping your credibility if you stopped viewing yourself as one of the only opinion's that matter and actually listened to and respected other scoopers' opinions.

[NersEllenson]

This is really the only part I am going to address because I have dealt with the rest already.  I think Buzz's coaching job last year was not as good as previous years because the motivational technique of busting players balls didn't work, and he didn't seem to have a back up plan.  In the past he had leaders for which that worked...the Amigos, Lazar, JFB, Jae and DJO, Vander and Junior.  Mentally strong players who "got Buzz," and that those leaders lead by example.  Last year's team needed a different approach.  The guys who "got Buzz" weren't as good on the floor, while the new guys like JJJ and JD, seemed to shrink from the approach.

I think tactically he approached the season like he didn't most of the others.

I too agree that tactically he didn't approach last year like the others.

The whole "leadership" argument is a convenient excuse.  Buzz is the leader above all else.  He lost that whole team last year...and it wasn't because there wasn't a Vander, Lazar, JFB, etc on that team.  As a coach if what you are coaching isn't working or connecting with your team...you course correct.  Not all guys respond to coaching the same way.  You have to be adaptable.

Perhaps as was pointed out...Buzz played "the toughest guys" in his opinion.  Yet, the toughest guys also have to be your best basketball players too.  Perhaps that was the case in previous seasons - think that case could be made. Yet last year...maybe not.  Yet some here argued all career long that Jamil Wilson wasn't tough - yet he played, started, etc. - So that seems to defy explanation, no?

Buzz had a choice late in nonconference play when it was clear the team wasn't playing very well - continue forward with what wasn't working, or try the more talented underclassmen and take the growing pains.  He chose to double down on seniority and what wasn't working, and that was an unbelievably bad decision.

I still am scratching my head as to what the F he was thinking sitting Burton for 6:30 of the last 7:00 of the must win game against Xavier in Big East tournament when Burton was practically unstoppable all game long.  It was at that point that I truly wondered if he really was genuinely trying to win basketball games prior to that...as that coaching decision was beyond bizarre.

And, Buzz isn't dumb - He knew he had enough skins on the wall, and could land a job at many schools even if he turned in one bad season. His ego had gotten so big, I don't think he really cared, and also think he did to an extent want to give an F-You to the administration.

Considering Buzz basically "won" in the power struggle with Larry Williams, and that Pilarz was removed, and our old basketball friendly admin came in as their replacements and he still wasn't able to get along with them - all I need to know to see that the man had changed tremendously over the course of his time at MU.

[NersEllenson]

Lol...
Step 1 - throw out a bs claim (inferred) and challenge a guy to dispute it
Step 2 - bs claim easily shot down by a third party
Step 3 - come up with an entirely different challenge

"Good luck"

Come on, bud. Get real.

Sorry JayBee - since I get railed for harping on Derrick...I chose to reference Jake's stats in that initial point...I'd asked all off season long for someone to find an example even close to Derrick's production.  It was never found.  You did a great job on the Jake issue...yet using Wragge as a comparison is like comparing a Ferrari to a Chevy given their performance, no?

Curious, do you feel the pairing of Derrick and Jake had any kind of chance to be successful?

[GGGG]

I too agree that tactically he didn't approach last year like the others.

The whole "leadership" argument is a convenient excuse.  Buzz is the leader above all else.  He lost that whole team last year...and it wasn't because there wasn't a Vander, Lazar, JFB, etc on that team.  As a coach if what you aren't coaching isn't working or connecting with your team...you course correct.  Not all guys respond to coaching the same way.  You have to be adaptable.

Perhaps as was pointed out...Buzz played "the toughest guys" in his opinion.  Yet, the toughest guys also have to be your best basketball players too.  Perhaps that was the case in previous seasons - think that case could be made. Yet last year...maybe not.  Yet some here argued all career long that Jamil Wilson wasn't tough - yet he played, started, etc. - So that seems to defy explanation, no?

I mis-typed.  I think Buzz tactically did much of the same stuff as previous years.

With regards to leadership, I think we are saying the same thing here.  He should have changed his approach but didn't...or couldn't...or whatever.  That to me was the crux of the problem.

With regards to Jamil, I never questioned his toughness or "fire in his belly" that many around here did.  I questioned his ability to perform.  

[NersEllenson]

Thank you for answering the question. I think your premise is reasonable. But you VASTLY overestimate the value of playing basketball at the high school level. Especially when that experience was over 20 years ago when the game has changed so much. I also think you VASTLY underestimate the value of studying the game as many on here have. You have fans who spend at least an hour or more a day reading about and studying college basketball. You also have posters like Chicos and Keefe who have had interactions and conversations with some of the greats in college basketball. You have others like JayBee and Freeport who spend lots of time following the college recruiting scene. You have numbers gurus like Henry Sugar. Then you have posters like myself and I believe other scoopers who work in college athletics and spend every day working with college basketball players.

To use your music example, a music critic who has spent years listening to and studying music but has never played an instrument has more credibility than a kid who played in a high school band and hasn't been playing in an organized band for the last 20 years.

I think it would go a long way to helping your credibility if you stopped viewing yourself as one of the only opinion's that matter and actually listened to and respected other scoopers' opinions.

What part of me saying:  "As I said, doesn't mean those of you who haven't played the game don't make good points too," isn't respecting other Scooper opinions??

I don't view my opinion's as the only one that matters. I appreciate all points made here.  I tend to disagree with 5 of you adamantly about last season and the coaching performance Buzz turned in.  All the guys you reference bring good value to the board, as do you.  Doesn't mean we are going to agree all the time.  And as I've said before, you are convicted in your convictions about last season, as am I - and in the case of last season, I'm sorry, but I feel the end result vindicated my position all season long, as opposed to yours and the 4 other common posters who disagreed with me all season.

Last thing - stats are a slippery slope - as they can be sliced and diced so many different way - which happens here a lot, as people slice and dice them in a way to try to support their point.  The reason you rarely have a stat head in a coaching position, is because they don't have a feel for the nuances of the game.  Buzz at times got so wrapped up into stats, he over thought things and started to coach scientifically instead of artistically.  I'd argue coaching is more of an art, than a science, and it is an art more easily understood by guys who have played their sport at a higher level...yes..higher than me and my high school level of course.

[NersEllenson]

I mis-typed.  I think Buzz tactically did much of the same stuff as previous years.

With regards to leadership, I think we are saying the same thing here.  He should have changed his approach but didn't...or couldn't...or whatever.  That to me was the crux of the problem.

With regards to Jamil, I never questioned his toughness or "fire in his belly" that many around here did.  I questioned his ability to perform.  

I agree.  We've seen Jamil similarly.  Looks the part athletically, yet doesn't have great basketball athleticism.  Plays very erect/little body lean.  Not an explosive first step, and therefore limited off the bounce.  He's a good defender, rebounder for his position, and unselfish type of guy.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

What part of me saying:  "As I said, doesn't mean those of you who haven't played the game don't make good points too," isn't respecting other Scooper opinions??

I don't view my opinion's as the only one that matters. I appreciate all points made here.  I tend to disagree with 5 of you adamantly about last season and the coaching performance Buzz turned in.  All the guys you reference bring good value to the board, as do you.  Doesn't mean we are going to agree all the time.  And as I've said before, you are convicted in your convictions about last season, as am I - and in the case of last season, I'm sorry, but I feel the end result vindicated my position all season long, as opposed to yours and the 4 other common posters who disagreed with me all season.

Last thing - stats are a slippery slope - as they can be sliced and diced so many different way - which happens here a lot, as people slice and dice them in a way to try to support their point.  The reason you rarely have a stat head in a coaching position, is because they don't have a feel for the nuances of the game.  Buzz at times got so wrapped up into stats, he over thought things and started to coach scientifically instead of artistically.  I'd argue coaching is more of an art, than a science, and it is an art more easily understood by guys who have played their sport at a higher level...yes..higher than me and my high school level of course.

I apologize. I misunderstood your post. The way I was reading a few of your last posts was "You occasionally make some good points but because I played basketball in high school, my opinion has more value than yours or anyone else's." It sounds like that isn't what you were trying to say, but that is what I think Sultan, Wades, Jay Bee, and myself were reacting to.

[NersEllenson]

I apologize. I misunderstood your post. The way I was reading a few of your last posts was "You occasionally make some good points but because I played basketball in high school, my opinion has more value than yours or anyone else's." It sounds like that isn't what you were trying to say, but that is what I think Sultan, Wades, Jay Bee, and myself were reacting to.

No worries TAMU - What makes this board the best of the bunch is there is a lot of exchange among all of us.  Every poster brings value.  But, disagreements are going to ensue, as opinions are like a$$holes - everyone has one!

I hate referencing my playing days and experience while at MU and beyond, and the only reason I do so is to give some context to what my points are, why I arrive at them, feel them, believe them.  I do not think someone who hasn't played the game at even just the high school level can fully understand how coaching can impact performance - and I am confident in saying Buzz's coaching last year negatively affected virtually everyone's performance...other than Derrick and Jake - as they were the only two guys who got consistent minutes, long stretches of playing time, and rarely got yanked in and out.    All of the substitutions just disrupt your rhythm as a player, and you gain no cohesion or efficiency when you are playing with so many different guys- and it creates confusion on the defensive end as to who has who, when so many rapid fire and hockey line type substitutions at times.

[forgetful]

No worries TAMU - What makes this board the best of the bunch is there is a lot of exchange among all of us.  Every poster brings value.  But, disagreements are going to ensue, as opinions are like pretty boys - everyone has one!

I hate referencing my playing days and experience while at MU and beyond, and the only reason I do so is to give some context to what my points are, why I arrive at them, feel them, believe them.  I do not think someone who hasn't played the game at even just the high school level can fully understand how coaching can impact performance - and I am confident in saying Buzz's coaching last year negatively affected virtually everyone's performance...other than Derrick and Jake - as they were the only two guys who got consistent minutes, long stretches of playing time, and rarely got yanked in and out.    All of the substitutions just disrupt your rhythm as a player, and you gain no cohesion or efficiency when you are playing with so many different guys- and it creates confusion on the defensive end as to who has who, when so many rapid fire and hockey line type substitutions at times.

This is the problem I have with your statements.  If you hate referencing it, don't reference it.  I played a lot of basketball throughout high-school and similar to you with college players, but not on the team in college (I reference this only because apparently that is of value to your analysis of individuals).  But no one should use that at all in criteria to your knowledge of basketball.

That is like saying that you can only trust a person who served in WWII about military strategy during the war.  There are people that have studied it their entire life that no everything about the topic.  Meanwhile, there are people who served during WWII, that no absolutely nothing about strategy. 

What I do is automatically assume that anyone posting on an MU basketball board is passionate about the sport and thus adequately informed.  I then value all opinions equally…doesn't mean I agree with them, but assume they have equal value.  Reason being is that we all observe the game in different ways.  Disagreements often stem from different focuses on what's important.

These different ways of looking at the game are often the most informative to me (meaning those that disagree have often more value), because I can try to go back and watch games trying to focus from their viewpoint to understand things I may miss.  Only when people are completely ridiculous or make things up do they lose any value.

So no need to bring up past accomplishments unless you want to reminisce (which is fine…we all do it), as they should have no bearing on the intrinsic value of your words.

[NersEllenson]

This is the problem I have with your statements.  If you hate referencing it, don't reference it.  I played a lot of basketball throughout high-school and similar to you with college players, but not on the team in college (I reference this only because apparently that is of value to your analysis of individuals).  But no one should use that at all in criteria to your knowledge of basketball.

That is like saying that you can only trust a person who served in WWII about military strategy during the war.  There are people that have studied it their entire life that no everything about the topic.  Meanwhile, there are people who served during WWII, that no absolutely nothing about strategy. 

What I do is automatically assume that anyone posting on an MU basketball board is passionate about the sport and thus adequately informed.  I then value all opinions equally…doesn't mean I agree with them, but assume they have equal value.  Reason being is that we all observe the game in different ways.  Disagreements often stem from different focuses on what's important.

These different ways of looking at the game are often the most informative to me (meaning those that disagree have often more value), because I can try to go back and watch games trying to focus from their viewpoint to understand things I may miss.  Only when people are completely ridiculous or make things up do they lose any value.

So no need to bring up past accomplishments unless you want to reminisce (which is fine…we all do it), as they should have no bearing on the intrinsic value of your words.

This is a reasonable analysis.  Yet, I disagree that playing experience or for that matter combat experience, doesn't give one a front line (and better perspective) than the guy who hasn't played, been in combat - as compared to the academic who may have studied a topic in great detail.  Experience matters in virtually every field. 

 

[mu-rara]

Yes - that is how I view opinions generally speaking.  It is usual evident who has played the game at the high school level or above, based on their take.  As I said, doesn't mean those of you who haven't played the game don't make good points too.  But, like I also said, I'd never critique a piano player, baritone player, or any other player of an instrument as to what they could do better, or what the conductor of the band could do better to make them perform better - as I have no real experience playing those instruments, or being a band member.

Yes, you see cases in basketball (more common in baseball) where the player personnel guys are not former players - yet why do you think most college and pro basketball teams have former players as head coaches?  Same in baseball, hockey and football. 

Would you really have a great deal of respect for my takes on how the MU band could improve?  What the conductor has been doing right/wrong? 

Michael Jordan stinks as head of a basketball organization.  How do you account for that?

[NersEllenson]

Michael Jordan stinks as head of a basketball organization.  How do you account for that?

Perhaps he should try coaching instead of front office work?  Lot more common to have a non-player in the front office/scouting department, than in the role of a coach.

[bilsu]

Just think what might of been. How many Buzz bashers would there be right now if Vander had not gone pro, Duane had not gotten injured and McKay had not jumped ship?

[Jay Bee]

Sorry JayBee - since I get railed for harping on Derrick...I chose to reference Jake's stats in that initial point...I'd asked all off season long for someone to find an example even close to Derrick's production.  It was never found.  You did a great job on the Jake issue...yet using Wragge as a comparison is like comparing a Ferrari to a Chevy given their performance, no?

Curious, do you feel the pairing of Derrick and Jake had any kind of chance to be successful?

You challenged a guy to find a particular player with certain criteria. I did that. Now qualifying it, "oh, but Wragge is different" is crap - should have qualified it from the beginning. That said, I knew that is EXACTLY what you'd do and therefore I brought up another recent Bluejay in Korver, further pointing out his minutes, ORtg and usage. So you complaining about the Wragge example is goofy from a couple of perspectives.

Derrick & Jake - yes, a chance to be successful with certain other guys on the court, which didn't happen. Again, my jumping into this disgraceful "topic" was specifically on your statistical "claim", that's all.

Buzz's personnel decisions were completely flawed and that was clear before the conference season even began. It was bizarre. He had similar tendencies in past years, but in 2013-14 the specific groupings were worse than ever before and nothing short of strange *if* he had an interest in winning basketball games.

This December article tried to be kind about it.. "Marquette's Shots Aren't Adding Up", but the point was the starting group was flippin dumb. Nonetheless, things could have been remedied to a degree while still keeping Derrick and Jake together, but most certainly with Derrick still as starting point guard.

So, we're probably on the same page in large part.

BUT.. I will say this: I would not be surprised to see Derrick put together a solid senior year campaign and have some Scoopers change their tone a bit.

[TheBurrEffect]

Odd you say this, as a review of your post history shows we are on the same page about a lot of topics.  And as you know, Wades never saw me at the Rec, has no idea - was just a silly lie to try to discredit me.  As for being a kid...I wish I was your age..23 or 24 would be great.  Being 40, you lose a few steps.  Although at 6'2" and 40 I can still dunk a basketball...doubt I'd be doing any of what you suggest if we were to play....even at this age.  

While we may agree on alot of our topics about MU's basketball, I was talking about the way in which you were acting superior in this thread due to you playing basketball and calling out people for playing in the band.

[NersEllenson]

Just think what might of been. How many Buzz bashers would there be right now if Vander had not gone pro, Duane had not gotten injured and McKay had not jumped ship?

Vander and McKay both decided that they no longer wanted to play for Buzz/MU - so in my view, that's on Buzz.  Vander at least put in three years and felt his stock was high enough to reach for his dream - albeit against the counsel and desire of Buzz.  McKay though?  Totally different story.  He wasn't buying what Buzz was selling as coach.

Regarding Duane - considering Burton was a 1st Team All Big East Freshman Team selection, yet could only get 12 minutes a game, or 7 minutes less than the next low minute getter on that All Freshman team...I highly doubt Buzz would have given Duane 25 minutes last season.  Especially, given that it was fairly well known Duane was struggling in practice prior to the injury.

[keefe]

acting superior in this thread due to you playing basketball and calling out people for playing in the band.

Well, yea. I think Darwin wrote about this, actually.

[StillAWarrior]

I'll just put this out there...I never played basketball in any organized level and really don't know crap.  But I am a passionate Marquette fan, and that should count for something.

[g0lden3agle]

This thread is getting locked in the next 24 hours.... #donedeal

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

This thread is getting locked in the next 24 hours.... #donedeal

I don't know whether or not to trust this opinion -- please tell us if you played basketball in high school so I can better evaluate.

[GGGG]

Vander and McKay both decided that they no longer wanted to play for Buzz/MU - so in my view, that's on Buzz.  Vander at least put in three years and felt his stock was high enough to reach for his dream - albeit against the counsel and desire of Buzz. 

You are blaming Buzz for Vander going pro? 

[NersEllenson]

You are blaming Buzz for Vander going pro? 

Bilsu was playing the hypothetical game of what could have been.  It is irrelevant because it wasn't the reality.  Blaming Buzz?  I wouldn't say blaming Buzz, but Buzz had a say and a role in Vander's decision - did not want him/think it was wise to turn pro - and apparently their relationship wasn't strong enough to where Vander took Buzz's advice to stay and play another year at MU.