MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Nevada233 on July 30, 2014, 05:22:21 PM
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Todd Mayo has Officially left Marquette University to Pursue Pro Career......
#HeGone
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I am going to guess this is the bombshell that Wadesworld uh-oh'd.
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Anybody still going with the "Buzz screwed him over" defense? MU should have never brought him back after his academic suspension.
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He must know something about getting to the League that Vander Blue doesnt... (I'll take the Ladder)
A 2 guard whos has character issues on and off the court, makes no one better around him and lackluster defense... An NBA GMs Dream...
He'll be on the Delaware 87ers in no time... 19K a year (plus his brothers allowance money) and no benefits... What a future.
Just opens the door for J. Dawson, JJJ, Deonte and Duane... #TheFuture
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Uh oh...
And to think, people were trying to rip me a new one when I didn't have the best things to say about Mayo and his attitude. But hey, it's all good.
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Seems a little odd that yesterday he tweeted this:
Double @mayo_todd 23h
Just ready for everything to start, I feel we have grown past the trees, now the sky is the limit. #MUBB #LoveDaSquad #NoBS
But, who knows how quickly things can change. That said, guess I'll be slightly skeptical until it is officially announced.
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Uh oh...
And to think, people were trying to rip me a new one when I didn't have the best things to say about Mayo and his attitude. But hey, it's all good.
Remember his body language during Wojo's introduction? Says a lot.
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http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/234478/Todd-Mayo-Leaving-Marquette-To-Pursue-Pro-Career
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That is a guy I will not miss.
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Anybody still going with the "Buzz screwed him over" defense? MU should have never brought him back after his academic suspension.
Yeah----but Buzz did bring him back!!!! Todd leaving doesn't excuse El Buzzo's poor decisions regarding this guy. But in your world, this justifies your love of Buzz.
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When you factor in his brother's wealth, this is maybe ok with me. College maybe isn't the place for Todd. Good luck to him. Tough player and a gunner, NBA DLeague maybe works out for him on a personal if not professional level.
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Academic issues?
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Remember his body language during Wojo's introduction? Says a lot.
That's just Toddler. He's never had good body language other than the Davidson game in the NCAA Tourney 2 seasons ago.
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Academic issues?
I don't know for a fact, but remember when I said a couple weeks ago he was still having academic issues?
Well...
OTOH, PT is saying he left in "good academic standing." I don't know if that means eligible to play per NCAA and/or Marquette requirements however.
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Have any players who voluntarily quit school and gone D-League ever made the NBA?
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Have any players who voluntarily quit school and gone D-League ever made the NBA?
Hmmmm.....
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Pro career. Ok. This was determined shortly after bazz got fired.
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I honestly wish I could be angry, but I'm not. I honestly can't recall more than a couple times in the last few years when I thought:
"Wow. Todd Mayo is a talented player who is absolutely not riding his brother's coattails. He is the absolute truth and is compeltely worth all the problems with motivation, academics, and general lackluster skills that come with him."
Best of luck to him if he thinks this is the best way to get to the show, but frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if this is the last we hear of Todd Mayo.
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Hmmmm.....
(http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/host.madison.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/7/b6/7b6cfe58-83e4-11e3-9e91-001a4bcf887a/52e0976bcb6b2.preview-620.jpg)
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Pro career. Ok. This was determined shortly after bazz got fired.
Nope. Otherwise he would have declared for the draft, gone through workouts, and then signed with a D League team or overseas. He was enrolled in the first session of summer school.
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Will hurt this year - but good in the long run as young guys will get more run now.
Duke is making Jeter their top big man priority so if we can get one of the Wisco bigs, the young guys will be experienced by then.
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nm
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(http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/host.madison.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/7/b6/7b6cfe58-83e4-11e3-9e91-001a4bcf887a/52e0976bcb6b2.preview-620.jpg)
No, Blue declared for the draft. I was asking if anyone quit school expressly to go straight to the D-League - and then got drafted.
Edit: Sorry Sultan - you beat me to it.
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Pro career. Ok. This was determined shortly after bazz got fired.
He'll have a pro career. My not be an NBA career, but he will play and get paid to do so. Like Vander before him, I think we will continue to see more and more of this. Instead of going to class, following rules, etc. when everyone knows a huge percentage of these guys are only there to play basketball, they can instead go play basketball, and get paid to do it. Is that degree worth something down the road? Sure, but I completely get these decisions (assuming they're voluntary). They don't want to go to school, they want to play ball. Go ahead and get the degree later if you want.
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That said, guess I'll be slightly skeptical until it is officially announced.
Welp...that didn't last long: http://www.gomarquette.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/073014aab.html
Still--makes me wonder what happened between his tweet yesterday and today.
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"Todd Mayo is a player we needed to sign to compete for an NBA Championship...."
Said Nobody
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Seems a little odd that yesterday he tweeted this:
But, who knows how quickly things can change. That said, guess I'll be slightly skeptical until it is officially announced.
http://www.gomarquette.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/073014aab.html
Official enough? Good riddance Toddler.
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I certainly wont miss a Career 8 PPG scorer.....
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Welp...that didn't last long: http://www.gomarquette.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/073014aab.html
Still--makes me wonder what happened between his tweet yesterday and today.
Guess it depends who "we" referred to in that tweet. Seems like his decision was made (or made for him) and nothing changed.
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While I do believe this is a significant setback for this coming season (how many players do we now have eligible - 9? 10?), as Todd provided scoring and even leadership, it forces the young kids to play more. JaJuan gets more minutes, Duane gets more minutes, Cohen gets more (if any) minutes. The only player on the roster that had more than one Stud of the Game last year is now Steve Taylor (w/2).
Hopefully, Deonte and Duane become the vocal leaders the team needs.
With that being said, the one concept that comes to mind when I now think of Todd is wasted unfulfilled potential. There were always glimpses of something really special, but all the pistons never fired. Whether it was academics, attitude, character, or circumstance, Todd never really got to show us what he had. Unfortunate.
Best of luck to him.
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He'll have a pro career. My not be an NBA career, but he will play and get paid to do so. Like Vander before him, I think we will continue to see more and more of this. Instead of going to class, following rules, etc. when everyone knows a huge percentage of these guys are only there to play basketball, they can instead go play basketball, and get paid to do it. Is that degree worth something down the road? Sure, but I completely get these decisions (assuming they're voluntary). They don't want to go to school, they want to play ball. Go ahead and get the degree later if you want.
The difference with Mayo - as opposed to high school kids - is that there will probably be a market for him in Europe.
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Guess it depends who "we" referred to in that tweet. Seems like his decision was made (or made for him) and nothing changed.
True, now that I re-read it, could be that he was actually saying "goodbye" to his teammates: Its been great, but time for new challenges, etc.
http://www.gomarquette.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/073014aab.html
Official enough? Good riddance Toddler.
Yup--that's why I posted the link above. Oh well--I was hoping that Todd could finally show the consistency this year and become a leader, but maybe he just wasn't built for that.
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@GoodmanESPN @David_Harten You really expected Mayo to play a game for Wojo? There was NO shot of that. None.
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I know it has been alluded to, but what was the "situation" with Todd and Buzz? Did they get along or was there animosity?
I always felt that Todd was a Buzz prototypical player (chip on shoulder, extremely athletic, etc.). Didn't see him really fitting in with Wojo and his new style.
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"Live by the Mayo, die by the Mayo" no longer...
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Couple of '14 players back on the open market today - Ray Kasongo - 6'7" power forward who supposedly qualified grade-wise and Jaquan Lyles may not be admitted as well.
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Color me shocked that he's in good academic standing.
Given goodman's tweet saying mayo would have next to no playing time, I'm Taking solace in the fact that This is proof that wojo isn't going to do what buzz did and just play crapty players because they were seniors
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Color me shocked that he's in good academic standing.
Given goodman's tweet saying mayo would have next to no playing time, I'm Taking solace in the fact that This is proof that wojo isn't going to do what buzz did and just play crapty players because they were seniors
I don't think you understood what Goodman was saying.......it had nothing to do with his ability.....
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I don't think you are reading the same Goodman tweet as others? Or maybe grossly misinterpreting it...
Color me shocked that he's in good academic standing.
Given goodman's tweet saying mayo would have next to no playing time, I'm Taking solace in the fact that This is proof that wojo isn't going to do what buzz did and just play crapty players because they were seniors
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We all knew this was coming from the day we first noticed the WVU tattoo.
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Here's some Paint Touches tweets for those not on Twitter:
Paint Touches @PaintTouches · 1m
In his last three MU games, Mayo averaged 22.3 points, 5.6 rebounds and 3.3 assists. 53% from 3. #mubb
Paint Touches @PaintTouches · 7m
Lastly, Mayo has a lot of Dwight Buycks in him. Pro setting should open up a lot of things for him. Intrigued to see what happens....
Paint Touches @PaintTouches · 11m
Hearing Marquette's '14-15 roster likely set. Not expecting anyone else to arrive (not surprising this late in the summer) to replace TM.
Paint Touches @PaintTouches · 12m
After sitting behind DJO, Blue and Thomas for 3 years, was really intrigued to see what Mayo could do as the go-to guy.
Paint Touches @PaintTouches · 18m
A source I spoke with last year was "amazed" Mayo had made it this far at MU with all his off-the-court incidents.
Paint Touches @PaintTouches · 22m
Hm.. RT @GoodmanESPN @David_Harten You really expected Mayo to play a game for Wojo? There was NO shot of that. None.
Paint Touches @PaintTouches · 25m
Carlino's and Duane Wilson's ability to play off the ball as perimeter threats will help, but this is a big loss no matter how you slice it.
Paint Touches @PaintTouches · 26m
Your table is ready, Jajuan Johnson.
Paint Touches @PaintTouches · 27m
It is important to note that Mayo's already 23 years old. One only gets so long to make money; sensing Mayo may have wanted to get started.
Paint Touches @PaintTouches · 30m
Marquette now has 9 eligible players on its roster to begin next season. Will be 10 (Luke Fischer) in second semester. #mubb
Paint Touches @PaintTouches · 30m
MU release notes Mayo leaves program in good academic standing
Retweeted by Paint Touches
Andrew Gruman @AndrewGruman · 32m
Marquette's returning leading scorer is now Deonte Burton at 6.9 PPG. #mubb
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Dude went to 4 high schools, the fact we got him to 3 seasons is a borderline miracle.
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I'll simply wish Todd the best going forward.
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Color me shocked that he's in good academic standing.
Given goodman's tweet saying mayo would have next to no playing time, I'm Taking solace in the fact that This is proof that wojo isn't going to do what buzz did and just play crapty players because they were seniors
Wojo is certainly not gonna just play players off seniority. Todd probably expected it to be his show and since its not. He gone
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This is fine if Todd wasn't interested in school... he wasn't going to boost his draft stock as a 23 year old this season so he should turn pro and make some money. I'm excited to get the young guys some good run this year. There is one thing I will dearly miss about Todd Mayo though. Quotes like the following (all pulled from the scoop):
"If we're looking for our Kemba Walker...he's wearing #4 for the Warriors."
"Todd Mayo, Marquette's Kemba Walker.
Take us to glory, Todd!!"
"When the "experts" say what this team can't do, Buzz puts that chip on their shoulder, and gets them to do something unexpected. Were the expectations too much this year? Did this team buy into the hype? Maybe, but I could see Buzz pushing the right buttons next week to get us into a Saturday night game. Mayo has the potential in him to have a Kemba Walker like week."
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Have any players who voluntarily quit school and gone D-League ever made the NBA?
I think Chico and I called this a while back...not sure this was voluntary...
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So, he wasn't Creaned and he wasn't Buzz Cut, was he told to find a new house key?
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Somewhere in America Jujuan Johnson is celebrating....
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My gut is telling me that this was a wojo decision. Best of luck to Todd in his future endeavors. I hope he gets his cup of coffee one day
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Won't miss his terrible defense and loose handle.
And most of his scoring seemed to happen when the team was in desparation mode. He never seemed to do much early in games in scoring to affect the outcome.
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Couple of '14 players back on the open market today - Ray Kasongo - 6'7" power forward who supposedly qualified grade-wise and Jaquan Lyles may not be admitted as well.
I'd be happy if we could land either of them. I have a feeling they are somewhat fine academically (Florida and Cal are looking at Kasongo), but that Oregon with its very highly publicized problems recently is upping the requirements to reign in problems.
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Mayo's not the worst kid in the world, but he was just typical of the borderline character guys that Buzz brought aboard that would then cause problems once at MU. Hopefully that crap ends with Wojo. This revolving door and playing seasons with a short-handed roster just gets tiresome.
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My gut is telling me that this was a wojo decision. Best of luck to Todd in his future endeavors. I hope he gets his cup of coffee one day
Did Wojo ask Todd to Wo-Go?
...sorry...I couldn't resist...
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My gut is telling me that this was a wojo decision. Best of luck to Todd in his future endeavors. I hope he gets his cup of coffee one day
I agree about whose call this ultimately was. Mayo didn't seem to be wavering at all when Wojo was hired. Why all of a sudden in July would he come to this decision? He could have been trying to catch on to an NBA summer league's team, competing in pre-draft workouts (even though he wouldn't have been picked), to at least put himself in front of NBA scouts and front office personnel.
If we're right about this, good for Wojo, that's what leaders come in and do, make tough decisions.
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Could Levin and/ or Wally E. make up a hardship story for their reason to transfer to petition the NCAA for immediate eligibility? Come on, get creative guys! ::)
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Todd will be 24 next March. NBA GMs aren't beating down the doors of seniors who are almost 6 years older than lottery picks and arent as talented.
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I think this departure opens up a big opportunity for Cohen if he's ready.
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Todd is a scorer. With this development, all of his transgressions come back into play and a case can be made that Buzz was more lenient with him than most coaches would have been. As good as he was down the stretch, he is lucky he was still on the team. Best of luck, Todd. Thank you for your time at MU.
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Apologize if this has been mentioned already, but the real beauty of this news is back to three available scholarships for the strong 2015 class. So some short-term pain, but long term gain. Hello Henry, Stone, and Cheatham? Whew, that would be an incredible class to start the Wojo era, and it's more possible now than it was 24 hours ago.
Never mind, idiot.
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Apologize if this has been mentioned already, but the real beauty of this news is back to three available scholarships for the strong 2015 class. So some short-term pain, but long term gain. Hello Henry, Stone, and Cheatham? Whew, that would be an incredible class to start the Wojo era, and it's more possible now than it was 24 hours ago.
Todd was done after this year anyway. It doesn't open up any additional scholarships for next year.
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nm
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Dude went to 4 high schools, the fact we got him to 3 seasons is a borderline miracle.
+1, very good point.
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Todd was done after this year anyway. It doesn't open up any additional scholarships for next year.
Geez, that's embarrassing, thanks.
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Mayo's senior season will be comparable to Blue's senior season.
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Speaking of Blue, man does he look scrawny in that picture. Has he set foot in a weight room since MU?
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No loss at all----zip, nada, zero
Adios
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FWIW, I heard that Todd was a big reason the team had such poor chemistry last year. I think Bert constantly giving him extra chances while sitting guys like Steve and JJJ was an issue that just festered.
Anyway, there are worse things than having a bad attitude. Todd never got into any trouble outside of grades and being flaky. Hope he does well wherever he goes and that this creates some opportunity for the young guys on the team.
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Wonder if the cat has busted out a smile yet?
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Anyone wanna speculate when mikehunt reports this chit?
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Mayo and Vander were the two commits that made the administration's academic staff the most frustrated. Demotivated enough that they questioned MU's commitment to anything more than becoming a crappy version of Kentucky.
That's leaving out the extracurricular crap.
This should be the end of cleaning house, as far as I've heard.
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FWIW, I heard that Todd was a big reason the team had such poor chemistry last year. I think Bert constantly giving him extra chances while sitting guys like Steve and JJJ was an issue that just festered.
Anyway, there are worse things than having a bad attitude. Todd never got into any trouble outside of grades and being flaky. Hope he does well wherever he goes and that this creates some opportunity for the young guys on the team.
I have read that elsewhere. It must have been quite a conundrum, having a guy who had a history of academic problems, was late for practice, was the big reason for poor chemistry, but who could occasionally take over and win games. Or, attempt to take over and lose them. As a coach, if you keep him around because you need a scorer, what does it say to the young guys? But, if he is the one guy who can create his own offense, how can you not run him out there? Maybe the problem wasn't that Buzz didn't give him consistent run until the last 10 games. Maybe the problem was that he gave him run at all and alienated the young guys.
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I think Chico and I called this a while back...not sure this was voluntary...
Yep, a few including both of you told us he wouldn't be back no matter what we were being led to believe. This is no loss for the upcoming season because, as the Goodman tweet indicates, Wojo never factored Mayo into his plans at all.
Anyone wanna speculate when mikehunt reports this chit?
Already done. Not exactly accurate since we didn't have 11 scholarship players as he says, just 11 eligible to play this year...probably in the not surprised camp as well and had the article penned back when we did only have 11 scholarship players.
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/269296071.html
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FWIW, I heard that Todd was a big reason the team had such poor chemistry last year. I think Bert constantly giving him extra chances while sitting guys like Steve and JJJ was an issue that just festered.
Anyway, there are worse things than having a bad attitude. Todd never got into any trouble outside of grades and being flaky. Hope he does well wherever he goes and that this creates some opportunity for the young guys on the team.
Exactly. Todd's problems were all on Todd. If anything, Buzz gave him WAAAYYY too long a leash.
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Yep, a few including both of you told us he wouldn't be back no matter what we were being led to believe. This is no loss for the upcoming season because, as the Goodman tweet indicates, Wojo never factored Mayo into his plans at all.
See I don't see how this makes any sense. Todd leaving right after Wojo started, or even back in May, would have made more sense for both parties. He gets to start off his professional career in the right way. And MU can try to find someone to take his scholarship.
Now both the program and him are behind the eight ball.
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My take on this is that Mayo realized that Wojo was not going to start him and that led to him quitting. As I said before everyone is happy with Wojo until they find out they are not starting or not playing much. To be honest the player I was worried the most about being unhappy with this year's playing time was JJJ. With Mayo leaving that gives a lot more opportunity to JJJ and I am happy with that.
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Some real funny comments here from what was written a year ago about Mayo.
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See I don't see how this makes any sense. Todd leaving right after Wojo started, or even back in May, would have made more sense for both parties. He gets to start off his professional career in the right way. And MU can try to find someone to take his scholarship.
Now both the program and him are behind the eight ball.
there was a time to cure period
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I think this means we are officially in a rebuilding year next season. But it may make us better in 15-16. All in all, if we had to lose a player, mayo would be on the short list of candidates for me
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Some real funny comments here from what was written a year ago about Mayo.
I'm sure you could select a couple to masturbate over, but most people here aren't surprised.
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I think Chico and I called this a while back...not sure this was voluntary...
Ding ding....April 6, 2014.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=43711.msg613603#msg613603
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Anyone wanna speculate when mikehunt reports this chit?
He already did so. Said Todd it was "likely" that Todd would be playing in Europe. Good chit as always from Mike Hunt.
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So, he wasn't Creaned and he wasn't Buzz Cut, was he told to find a new house key?
Reverse Buzz Cut. Some will know what I mean by that statement. LW is chuckling somewhere.
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So, he wasn't Creaned and he wasn't Buzz Cut, was he told to find a new house key?
Um ... WoJobbed?
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See I don't see how this makes any sense. Todd leaving right after Wojo started, or even back in May, would have made more sense for both parties. He gets to start off his professional career in the right way. And MU can try to find someone to take his scholarship.
Now both the program and him are behind the eight ball.
Perhaps he needed the summer semesters in order to leave in good academic standing...? That's what makes sense to me.
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Perhaps he needed the summer semesters in order to leave in good academic standing...? That's what makes sense to me.
He only took part in 1 session. And I doubt Todd had any care about whether he was leaving MU in good academic standing or not.
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Perhaps he needed the summer semesters in order to leave in good academic standing...? That's what makes sense to me.
That makes sense from MU's point of view (APR score), but why would that make sense from Todd's? Is he going to finish his degree?
And is it worth it to forego pre draft camps, team tryouts, and a spot in the summer league?
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Mayo's departure is a direct result of the moves last year to be eligible for the 2nd semester.
Recall midway through the first semester last year that he was declared ineligible according to NCAA rules. When that happens mid semester, its not a GPA issue--because the GPA isn't reported mid-semester. The most likely reason was that he dropped course load below the NCAA mandated minimum (6 or 12 credits--I can't recall which applied). That kept him out of the lineup first semester, but the move preserved the GPA in his remaining courses so he'd be eligible the 2nd semester.
The problem (which we all should have foreseen) was that Todd would have to carry a heavier course load 2nd semester and over the summer in order to reach the 60% of his degree to show academic progress--per the NCAA, you need to complete 60% of the credits required for a degree to be eligible as a senior.
Having dropped a bunch of courses in the fall of his junior year, and probably not having taken a heavy load prior to that point, getting to that 60% mark before the fall 2014 semester began was likely a difficult proposition at best--and now that we're well into the summer term, likely realized it was impossible.
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Mayo's departure is a direct result of the moves last year to be eligible for the 2nd semester.
Recall midway through the first semester last year that he was declared ineligible according to NCAA rules. When that happens mid semester, its not a GPA issue--because the GPA isn't reported mid-semester. The most likely reason was that he dropped course load below the NCAA mandated minimum (6 or 12 credits--I can't recall which applied). That kept him out of the lineup first semester, but the move preserved the GPA in his remaining courses so he'd be eligible the 2nd semester.
The problem (which we all should have foreseen) was that Todd would have to carry a heavier course load 2nd semester and over the summer in order to reach the 60% of his degree to show academic progress--per the NCAA, you need to complete 60% of the credits required for a degree to be eligible as a senior.
Having dropped a bunch of courses in the fall of his junior year, and probably not having taken a heavy load prior to that point, getting to that 60% mark before the fall 2014 semester began was likely a difficult proposition at best--and now that we're well into the summer term, likely realized it was impossible.
That was sophomore year, not junior year.
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/marquette-todd-mayo-academically-ineligible-latest-mishap-o-180725492--ncaab.html
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Don't know anything about team chemistry, relationship with Buzz, etc. Was counting on him for some O this year. He had some great moments - I think it was at the Jimmy V vs. UW when he had a thunderous jam. There was a game or two last year when he was the force. Best post I've seen on Todd referred to the unfulfilled potential - it's oh, so true. Good luck, Todd, but I don't see big things in your Bball future. I think this makes this year a "bridge year" but it's probably a step in Wojo's Dukification of MU.
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Todd is 23 years old and will be 24 by the end of this NCAA season. Which is a huge red flag for NBA Gm's.
Todd also was not the prototypical Wojo recruit, he also felt entitled for the team to be ran through him this year and that wasnt gonna happen so it was his time to go.
Lets not be silly and think hes gonna be on a NBA roster any time soon but he did have some talent.
That armed with a super rich nba brother makes leaving school an easy decision.
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See I don't see how this makes any sense. Todd leaving right after Wojo started, or even back in May, would have made more sense for both parties. He gets to start off his professional career in the right way. And MU can try to find someone to take his scholarship.
Now both the program and him are behind the eight ball.
I follow and agree with your logic. The fact that Todd waited (?) until now is irrational and apparently consistent with his prior behavior.
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I follow and agree with your logic. The fact that Todd waited (?) until now is irrational and apparently consistent with his prior behavior.
Think more broadly....LW...Buzz...Mayo.
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Todd is 23 years old and will be 24 by the end of this NCAA season. Which is a huge red flag for NBA Gm's.
Lets not be silly and think hes gonna be on a NBA roster any time soon but he did have some talent.
I've seen his age referenced a few times in this thread. Give me a break, his being 23 now, 24 by next June would not be a "red flag" that you and others speak of. The fact that his game is nowhere near good enough, consistent enough, is the red flag on him. If a guy can play at an NBA level, you really think they're going to quibble about drafting a guy in his mid-20's to start his career? Of course they're not going to.
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My take on this is that Mayo realized that Wojo was not going to start him and that led to him quitting. As I said before everyone is happy with Wojo until they find out they are not starting or not playing much. To be honest the player I was worried the most about being unhappy with this year's playing time was JJJ. With Mayo leaving that gives a lot more opportunity to JJJ and I am happy with that.
You were worried about him being unhappy?!? Is this CYO basketball we're following? Whether Mayo would have stayed, or now that he's going, the onus is on Johnson alone to show whether or not he can play and contribute at this level. And if he can play, he would/will find his way to minutes and a role. Guys with talent are going to force coaches into giving them minutes. Plus, there were only 10 other eligible players besides Johnson before Mayo left.
I want Johnson to succeed like all of our players, and he obviously will get more opportunity now, but with or without Mayo's presence this year, JJJ will get his opportunity regardless. Plus, as I stated, if a guy can play, a coach will find a way to get him in there.
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It's not the right decision, but you gotta get what's yours. Best of luck to Todd personally and professionally. Hope he keeps himself out of trouble and can be a player and person Marquette is proud to own.
In related news, who here is happy that we have Wojo and were able to keep JJJ?
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All these comments that are ripping Todd a new one disgust me. Yea he made some mistakes but you shouldn't be mad at him. He did nothing to you Personally. I wish the best of luck to Todd wherever he ends up.
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Think more broadly....LW...Buzz...Mayo.
Ok. OK. In my defense, I've been drinking Kiltlifters. :)
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Ok. OK. In my defense, I've been drinking Kiltlifters. :)
Hopefully, in your defense, you are drinking that superb Scotch Ale from Pike Brewing and not that sludge from Four Peaks...
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Ok. OK. In my defense, I've been drinking Kiltlifters. :)
Speaking of Kilts, saw the Outlander premier the other day for Starz down in San Diego...if you read the books you would get the kilt reference. Pretty good series.
For Mayo...hope he does well in his new endeavors. Also hope he has the good sense of just moving on, otherwise someone in Blacksburg might feel warm under the collar.
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Mayo has always been very inconsistent and I don't think this will be too much of a loss. I'm actually excited he's leaving, as it opens the door for more playing time for JJJ. I now think JJJ is going to lead this team in scoring next year...he's a stud and I think we are all going to think of this as a blessing in disguise very early on next season.
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I've seen his age referenced a few times in this thread. Give me a break, his being 23 now, 24 by next June would not be a "red flag" that you and others speak of. The fact that his game is nowhere near good enough, consistent enough, is the red flag on him. If a guy can play at an NBA level, you really think they're going to quibble about drafting a guy in his mid-20's to start his career? Of course they're not going to.
Yes. If he is seen as a bench-type guy, they are not going to touch him.
It is the reason that Jordan Bachynski from Arizona State was not drafted. He certainly has the defense and shot blocking skills to be an NBA backup, but at age 25, no one is going to invest the time for a backup.
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Hopefully, in your defense, you are drinking that superb Scotch Ale from Pike Brewing and not that sludge from Four Peaks...
Nope. Four Peaks. But I do live in a relatively small house....
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not a bad thing :)
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All these comments that are ripping Todd a new one disgust me. Yea he made some mistakes but you shouldn't be mad at him. He did nothing to you Personally. I wish the best of luck to Todd wherever he ends up.
I'm not the least bit mad at Todd Mayo. I was disappointed in him during some of his time at Marquette when he acted like a selfish little baby, but otherwise he always played hard and played to win.
He has slightly better than zero chance to be an NBA player - probably closer to zero than to 5% - but I wish him well in his endeavors.
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We will miss the offense Todd can bring and I wish him well.
That said, this could make us stronger later this season, and certainly next. Carlino looks to get the bulk of the time at PG with Derrick off the bench, but there are now more minutes at the 2/3 for Duane, John, JJJ and Sandy. I think JJJ could have a breakout year - hard to see if Todd was getting 25+ mpg - and hope to see what we'd expected from Duane as a frosh.
We may miss some of what Todd could give us in crunch time, but frankly I expect Deonte to be our go-to guy anyway. Todd would have been plan B, so now we'll hopefully see who can make big plays down the stretch.
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Can Tyler Thornton play as a grad student or did he have a redshirt year at Duke?
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Is this Hiroshima?
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will be interesting to see where he lands. my thought, with the timing, is either it wasn't completely todd's decision to leave, or the timing works well with overseas ball and he realizes that he won't be playing in the nba. i always think if i were a d1 ball player planning to make my living playing overseas on 50 - 200K a year i'd be looking to leave early as i'd really need maximize the amount of years i could play/get paid.
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Can anyone play in da NBDL just 'cuz ya wanna or do ya have to be selected?
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I wish him well, but he has zero chance at the NBA.
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While I do believe this is a significant setback for this coming season (how many players do we now have eligible - 9? 10?), as Todd provided scoring and even leadership, it forces the young kids to play more. JaJuan gets more minutes, Duane gets more minutes, Cohen gets more (if any) minutes. The only player on the roster that had more than one Stud of the Game last year is now Steve Taylor (w/2).
Hopefully, Deonte and Duane become the vocal leaders the team needs.
With that being said, the one concept that comes to mind when I now think of Todd is wasted unfulfilled potential. There were always glimpses of something really special, but all the pistons never fired. Whether it was academics, attitude, character, or circumstance, Todd never really got to show us what he had. Unfortunate.
Best of luck to him.
Great post. Sums it up very well. Todd had a lot of talent...but as you wrote whether it was academics, attitude, character or circumstances - he never got to the point he was firing on all cylinders.
I was looking forward to seeing what Todd could do this upcoming season - as I thought it could be a breakout year for him, and along with it - the team could do some really good things.
It definitely does open up more playing time for the future guards in the program - JJJ, John, Duane - and that is the positive side of Todd's departure - along with any chemistry issues that may have been created through his behavior.
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That was sophomore year, not junior year.
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/marquette-todd-mayo-academically-ineligible-latest-mishap-o-180725492--ncaab.html
I stand corrected on the timing. However, the need to make up the deficit in completed credits remains. He had to have 60% of the credits to graduate in order to play this year. Even if the courses were dropped the year before, missing them makes it harder to qualify in subsequent seasons--especially if any additional classes were dropped
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Can Tyler Thornton play as a grad student or did he have a redshirt year at Duke?
He did not Redshirt at Duke
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Miss a little miss a lot. I love checking in after being off the site for 15 hours and discovering MU is down one player.
Interesting note: Only 5 total SotG returning from last year (cf. last year with 21 returning and 2 years ago 11 returning and 16 the year before that; it's the newest thing in advanced statistical analysis).
Going to be really interesting to see who steps up. JJJ? Likely not a great W-L record this year, but will be fun to see development. Opportunity abounds.
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I'd say Mayo pulled a Vander. Vander wasn't interested in school (over getting paid) and his loyalty to MU didn't trump his personal desires to move on, and get paid.
Mayo isn't interested in a MU degree, likely never was, and frankly would likely never benefit from it anyhow. He was destined to have a nice career in Europe, just like nearly every other mubb player. That he chose not to be under constant educational scrutiny with planned schedules and tutors for 9 more months .. in exchange for a trip overseas and some cash .. no surprise.
Does it hurt mubb this year? Absolutely, and people who suggest otherwise are daft. Does it help for future seasons? Yeah, maybe.
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Only surprise here is that this was not announced a couple of months ago. As Keefe pointed out, this has been in the works for awhile. He was gone well before yesterday.
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As Sean "Puff Daddy" Combs once said, "it's all about the Benjamins baby."
For his sake, I hope he can make a decent living playing the game of professional basketball.
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Guy had a terrible attitude and wildly inconsistent. This is fine with me, I'd rather see the young guys develop and not waste minutes on Mayo. It's going to be a rough season with or without him, why not play the young guys and get ready for '15 & '16.
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Let's all keep in mind that while Todd was a very good player when he was focused, he did not get through a single season without missing time due to academic/attitude/behavior issues.
With such a young team, that is not the kind of behavior (and example) any coach would want to see out of an upper classman.
He will be missed early in the season, in my opinion. Without him, however, some of the young guys get the chance to grow up fast.
Could very well be, by March, a great example of addition by subtraction.
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Now that it is all done I'll comment a little on Todd's potential academic situation. As to his Sophomore year, Todd was compelled to drop a class mid semester. He actually did this a few weeks before the 'drop dead' date. That action took him below 'full time' status and he was necessarily ineligible for basketball until the semester ended when grades posted at 5pm on Tuesday following exams (heretofore known by me as Luke Fischer Day). Most basketball players carry 12-15 credits during the year, supplementing during the summer months as allowed by the NCAA. I do believe there are summer limits (perhaps 9 overall credits). As to his overall GPA I have no information nor would I share anything if I did.
I also know that certain hurdles are required as a student progresses through his 4 year of eligibility. For example, one needs to have a certain percentage of his core curriculum completed before beginning his Junior year of eligibility, with others at every step. This has zero to do with whether a student is in 'good standing' and is merely an NCAA requirement forcing kids to be true student athletes and make progress toward their college degree. None of these rules apply to non athletes. As an example, a student with decent grades could absolutely decide to be on the 7 year plan working a full time job while taking 9 credits a semester. Hope that helps.
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Great post. Sums it up very well. Todd had a lot of talent...but as you wrote whether it was academics, attitude, character or circumstances - he never got to the point he was firing on all cylinders.
I was looking forward to seeing what Todd could do this upcoming season - as I thought it could be a breakout year for him, and along with it - the team could do some really good things.
It definitely does open up more playing time for the future guards in the program - JJJ, John, Duane - and that is the positive side of Todd's departure - along with any chemistry issues that may have been created through his behavior.
Wait a second. Todd had problems at MU? I thought his only problem was that Buzz was picking on him. LOL.
One positive for you, though - with minutes opening up at the 2/3, John Dawson goes from being a third string point guard/bench warmer to getting some minutes playing off the ball. You may win your wager with me yet.
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Miss a little miss a lot. I love checking in after being off the site for 15 hours and discovering MU is down one player.
Interesting note: Only 5 total SotG returning from last year (cf. last year with 21 returning and 2 years ago 11 returning and 16 the year before that; it's the newest thing in advanced statistical analysis).
Going to be really interesting to see who steps up. JJJ? Likely not a great W-L record this year, but will be fun to see development. Opportunity abounds.
well there were less opportunities with only 17 wins
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Does it hurt mubb this year? Absolutely, and people who suggest otherwise are daft. Does it help for future seasons? Yeah, maybe.
This times a billion, guy was prolly worth 3-4 wins more for us next year. he at times played liked an absolute stud last year. Yes it was in flahed and he needed to be more consistant but he was one of the only retrners who could even go on a run like those.
And I am not gonna speculate o team cancer, attitude, etc. From the outside looking in he did not have the greatest body language etc. , but he always said the right things and looks can be deceiving , we have no idea on how he was accepted/emebraced and interacted with his teammates and coaches.
I thought we would greatly surprise people who had lowered expectations after last season, i no longer feel this way. huge unfortunate loss no way to view it any way else
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Wait a second. Todd had problems at MU? I thought his only problem was that Buzz was picking on him. LOL.
One positive for you, though - with minutes opening up at the 2/3, John Dawson goes from being a third string point guard/bench warmer to getting some minutes playing off the ball. You may win your wager with me yet.
I never said Buzz "picked on Todd." I've posted numerous times Todd brought on Todd what he did - yet the way Buzz coached him while eligible and able to play was awful...until the last 10 games of last season. Buzz always had Todd on a short leash in games...one mistake and it was to the bench...and it killed Mayo's production. The point is, if Buzz was willing to play Todd...essentially saying he's eligible to play - then don't jack him around with the quick hook.
As for your comments on Dawson, yes, it will open up more potential time for John. That was one of the reasons I made the bet with you, because Dawson can play the 1 or the 2. Derrick of course is a 1 only. Even if Mayo were still here I'd be very confident in the bet - since I made it when I felt Todd was going to be on the roster anyway. I see a LOT of talent in Dawson, which you simply don't see. You've been hyper critical of Dawson, and suggested he isn't a very talented player all the while taking up and championing a guy who got max minutes to show what he was capable of...who produced next to nothing.
Dawson will be a VERY good player at MU - and when he proves this to be true - I'll look forward to your admission that you were clueless with regard to being able to evaluate his basketball talent.
Lastly, let the whole Buzz love go Lenny. Buzz's ego got WAY out of control, and he wasn't the same guy in his 6th year as he was in Years 1, 2, 3 or 4 that we both loved. Success got to his head. Sadly.
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This times a billion, guy was prolly worth 3-4 wins more for us next year.
That's really, really exaggerating his impact. He stood out last year because the team was so bereft of backcourt scoring options. That won't be the case with Carlino, Duane, and JJJ seeing significant minutes.
Losing Mayo will hurt their depth, but I don't think it changes the W-L numbers a whole lot.
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Buzz always had Todd on a short leash in games...one mistake and it was to the bench...and it killed Mayo's production. .
According to that PT recap today Bart played him over 21 mpg as a freshman, the most of any frosh under Bart
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Yes the back court was bereft of scorers and we have added whom? Cohen, carlino?, and Wilson? two guys who have never played a D1 game and a adequate player from BYU?
i greatly disagree, those guys may do well but they are hardly proven replacements, especially early on against a really tuff pre-con schedule
A pre- tuned MAyo playing at the level he did in the second half of last years season would have been a huge boost that could have carried us over in many games just like it did last year...
per Paint touches....Mayo finishes the year averaging 15.7 points over his final 10 games. He leads a comeback in a win over Butler, plays almost-hero in a double-overtime loss at Providence and scores 20 or more points in the final three games
cleary just my opinion,but it hink peoples dislike of his body language jaded their feeling s about his game
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According to that PT recap today Bart played him over 21 mpg as a freshman, the most of any frosh under Bart
Yep....21 minutes as a freshman, and Buzz could only find 23 minutes a game for him as a junior, or 5 less minutes per game than the walk on in front of him...
Todd probably earned a little more rope due to his game at Wisconsin as a freshman - where he pretty much led us to the winner's circle. Was so interesting to see Bo Ryan moving 3 different defenders onto Mayo - that game.
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Todd had injury issues, late for practice issues, academic issues, and if other reports are to be believed, being a good teammate issues. It is a testament to Buzz's patience and rooting for the underdog that he was still on the team. He averaged 15.7 pts over MU's last 10 games. He could score. BTW, what was MU's record over those games? Did he make his teammates better?
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The butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker...
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There is a lot more to this than we think. I wish Mr. Mayo well and hope he finds success in the D-League or overseas. My fear is that his advisors, like those of Vander Blue, have led him down a disappointing and dangerous path.
Alternatively, he has a bad case of sibling rivalry and thinks he's better than OJ.
I'm disappointed because I was hoping he would step up under Wojo and lead this team with the talent and ability we all think Todd had. That said, I also think the writing was on the wall for 2014-2015. We have so many guards that playing time was not guaranteed and nobody thought they owed Todd anything.
Good luck Todd. It's a tough world out there!
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Todd had injury issues, late for practice issues, academic issues, and if other reports are to be believed, being a good teammate issues. It is a testament to Buzz's patience and rooting for the underdog that he was still on the team. He averaged 15.7 pts over MU's last 10 games. He could score. BTW, what was MU's record over those games? Did he make his teammates better?
We should have won those last three (2OT @ Prov, 2OT vs. St. John's, @MSG vs. Xavier). Most frustrated I've ever been with Buzz (and I am/was a huge Buzz fan). Yanking his only scoring options as soon as they got on a roll. Mayo was the only reason we were even in that Providence game, he hit some MASSIVE shots. I wish I could get one of those memory erasers from Eternal Sunshine for those games. Oh well, onward and upward!
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Todd obviously was a strong offensive player who displayed an ability to perform when the game was on the line. That cannot be discounted. However, I think he played for himself most of the time. Given our weak back court last year, his self interest aligned with the team so we got those moments of brilliance. Also he was never a big assist guy and there was an opportunity for him to step up and create for others specifically Davante, which he did not do.
This is a new season and we have a new coach. Everything has been reset. The Triple Trio of JJJ, Deonte and Duane have just as much if not more talent than Todd and the new staff is giving them a chance. I am not sure Todd would have been a compatible player with them or Carlino. As he would have viewed this year as one long self showcase.
I think this is a classic case of addition by subtraction.
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I will miss Todd next year. I thought he appeared to be maturing as a student and a player. I was optimistic that we were going to see close to, if not, his full potential next year.
Yes, he had academic and personal issues. Lots of people do at his age. Again, I thought he was heading towards the right trajectory.
I am surprised at the timing of this. I trust from others who have posted in this thread that this was unfortunately inevitable. Sounds like he didn't make enough of a course correction after all.
I'm just scratching my head mostly with the timing.
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I will miss Todd next year. I thought he appeared to be maturing as a student and a player. I was optimistic that we were going to see close to, if not, his full potential next year.
Yes, he had academic and personal issues. Lots of people do at his age. Again, I thought he was heading towards the right trajectory.
I am surprised at the timing of this. I trust from others who have posted in this thread that this was unfortunately inevitable. Sounds like he didn't make enough of a course correction after all.
I'm just scratching my head mostly with the timing.
Yeah, same
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Yeah, same
Same for me. I saw progress...
However, I tend to have a glass half full approach to almost every MU player ever.
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Yes the back court was bereft of scorers and we have added whom? Cohen, carlino?, and Wilson? two guys who have never played a D1 game and a adequate player from BYU?
i greatly disagree, those guys may do well but they are hardly proven replacements, especially early on against a really tuff pre-con schedule
A pre- tuned MAyo playing at the level he did in the second half of last years season would have been a huge boost that could have carried us over in many games just like it did last year...
per Paint touches....Mayo finishes the year averaging 15.7 points over his final 10 games. He leads a comeback in a win over Butler, plays almost-hero in a double-overtime loss at Providence and scores 20 or more points in the final three games
cleary just my opinion,but it hink peoples dislike of his body language jaded their feeling s about his game
I think you make some valid points. Predicting how well Duane or Sandy will be is impossible because they have NOT played a single game yet. So, to make the assumption those two will be an uptick over Todd is premature at best.
Carlino will be fine and had we not added him we would be in a world of hurt. This is going to be a rough season with very little returning scoring. Wojo is going to have his work cut out for him.
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I wish him the best. But the ceiling for a College Dropout trying to make a NBA team isnt high.
Markel Starks, Jahii Carson, Jamil Wilson all played more and arent in the league.
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Here's what I got...Mayo went AWOL all summer, nobody knew what he was up to, finally shows up yesterday and was told by Wojo that his services were no longer needed.
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I've seen his age referenced a few times in this thread. Give me a break, his being 23 now, 24 by next June would not be a "red flag" that you and others speak of. The fact that his game is nowhere near good enough, consistent enough, is the red flag on him. If a guy can play at an NBA level, you really think they're going to quibble about drafting a guy in his mid-20's to start his career? Of course they're not going to.
NBA GM's are not drafting 24 year old seniors unless their world beaters or can contribute to a franchise....
Todd didn't start over Jake Thomas... LMFAO Jake Thomas are you kidding me. He has 0% chance of playing in the NBA.
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Here's what I got...Mayo went AWOL all summer, nobody knew what he was up to, finally shows up yesterday and was told by Wojo that his services were no longer needed.
All of the underclassmen were working out and buying into wojo. Alot of them played in Milwuakees Pro Am (Todd played in Chicagos, Steve Taylor played in Chicago too but hes from there) and was looked at as an individual rather than a teammate. So he had to go. Word is not to many people (Players and Staff) are upset about his departure.
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NBA GM's are not drafting 24 year old seniors unless their world beaters or can contribute to a franchise....
Todd didn't start over Jake Thomas... LMFAO Jake Thomas are you kidding me. He has 0% chance of playing in the NBA.
+1
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NBA GM's are not drafting 24 year old seniors unless their world beaters or can contribute to a franchise....
Todd didn't start over Jake Thomas... LMFAO Jake Thomas are you kidding me. He has 0% chance of playing in the NBA.
I don't think he'll ever play in the NBA either, but the fact that Todd didn't start over Jake was more of an indicator of where Buzz' head was at last season than and indictment of Todd's ability.
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Not to rehash too much, but as the story comes out about Todd as a teammate and a distraction, contrasted with Jake's reputation as being a good teammate and NOT a distraction, can there really be any doubt as to why Jake started?
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Not to rehash too much, but as the story comes out about Todd as a teammate and a distraction, contrasted with Jake's reputation as being a good teammate and NOT a distraction, can there really be any doubt as to why Jake started?
Fine, I'll totally grant you that. It still has nothing to do with the raw talent level of the respective players (and I'm not a Jake hater).
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Fine, I'll totally grant you that. It still has nothing to do with the raw talent level of the respective players (and I'm not a Jake hater).
I 100% agree that Todd is a more talented player than Jake and would beat him 95 times out 100 1 on 1.
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Here's what I got...Mayo went AWOL all summer, nobody knew what he was up to, finally shows up yesterday and was told by Wojo that his services were no longer needed.
Where did you get this? Is this from a source in the program or are you just assuming this is what happened?
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Fine, I'll totally grant you that. It still has nothing to do with the raw talent level of the respective players (and I'm not a Jake hater).
Indeed Todd Mayo is not winning any Sportsmanship Awards anytime soon. . Jake Thomas caused 0 distractions always showed up on time, passed his classes and wasnt a headache. So he started. Todd was the polar opposite, got sent home by brent for his issues also benched this year for showing up late to practice more than once.
At the end of the day Hard Work beats talent, when talent doesn't work hard.
No one is saying Todd Can't play basketball..... But what I am saying is if im an NBA GM once I looked over his track record I would't take a risk on him.
You deal with headaches drama and etc from 17/18 year old lottery picks who can change your franchise not 23 year old non starters....
There isn't an NBA roster that he could start for or even contribute to at this point. None
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All of the underclassmen were working out and buying into wojo. Alot of them played in Milwuakees Pro Am (Todd played in Chicagos, Steve Taylor played in Chicago too but hes from there) and was looked at as an individual rather than a teammate. So he had to go. Word is not to many people (Players and Staff) are upset about his departure.
And Taylor wanted to play in Milwaukee, but he screwed up and registered in Chicago to play a game or two, not knowing that you can't register for two leagues.
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Indeed Todd Mayo is not winning any Sportsmanship Awards anytime soon. . Jake Thomas caused 0 distractions always showed up on time, passed his classes and wasnt a headache. So he started. Todd was the polar opposite, got sent home by brent for his issues also benched this year for showing up late to practice more than once.
At the end of the day Hard Work beats talent, when talent doesn't work hard.
No one is saying Todd Can't play basketball..... But what I am saying is if im an NBA GM once I looked over his track record I would't take a risk on him.
You deal with headaches drama and etc from 17/18 year old lottery picks who can change your franchise not 23 year old non starters....
There isn't an NBA roster that he could start for or even contribute to at this point. None
We do not disagree on his NBA prospects.
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Yep....21 minutes as a freshman, and Buzz could only find 23 minutes a game for him as a junior, or 5 less minutes per game than the walk on in front of him...
Todd probably earned a little more rope due to his game at Wisconsin as a freshman - where he pretty much led us to the winner's circle. Was so interesting to see Bo Ryan moving 3 different defenders onto Mayo - that game.
"A little more rope?"
So does "a little more rope" mean going on academic probation for a semester, coming back and still showing up late to class and having issues getting simple assignments done?
Does "a little more rope" mean being late to practice multiple times last year?
Does "a little more rope" mean being a senior, someone who would be looked upon to lead, and basically going AWOL this summer?
Buzz's biggest issue is that he kept Todd around. He should have been gone after his freshman year. It would have been better for Marquette, and probably for Todd, for him to have transferred to a JUCO or something at that point. We could have used the scholarship elsewhere and team chemistry would have been much improved.
Stop banging on Buzz for how he used Mayo vis-a-vis Thomas last year. In retrospect it is obvious...very obvious...why he made the decisions he did.
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This is great news for Marquette basketball. Hopefully we have seen the last of "Todd Mayo type" people in this program. The only surprising thing here is that it took this long for him to be shown the door. I am very happy with the type of person that Wojo is recruiting. I suspect that these kids will work hard, listen and learn. Very good news.
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"A little more rope?"
So does "a little more rope" mean going on academic probation for a semester, coming back and still showing up late to class and having issues getting simple assignments done?
Does "a little more rope" mean being late to practice multiple times last year?
Does "a little more rope" mean being a senior, someone who would be looked upon to lead, and basically going AWOL this summer?
Buzz's biggest issue is that he kept Todd around. He should have been gone after his freshman year. It would have been better for Marquette, and probably for Todd, for him to have transferred to a JUCO or something at that point. We could have used the scholarship elsewhere and team chemistry would have been much improved.
Stop banging on Buzz for how he used Mayo vis-a-vis Thomas last year. In retrospect it is obvious...very obvious...why he made the decisions he did.
Buzz recruited Todd to Marquette, okay? Buzz was responsible for him being on campus. Buzz needed to figure out a way to make it work. And so, you are suggesting Buzz should have turned his back on Todd at the first hint of trouble/struggle? Did you ever make mistakes as a 19-22 year old? Let me guess, probably not? LOL. And let me guess, your childhood was so similar to Todd's, right? Moving all over, 4 different high schools, no father figure in your life?
I am curious why you defended Vander so profusely, yet had such an issue with Todd. They aren't a whole lot different in any way, shape or form. Todd never punched another student or got charged with any law breaking offenses at MU. Vander? Nope. Assault. Yet you defended Vander all along during his MU career? Why?
I don't fault Buzz for trying to stick with Todd....as his issues were generally things that harmed Todd, and Todd alone. Struggling academically, after going to 4 different high schools in 4 years is to be expected. Being late a few times to practice or class?? Wow. Felony type stuff right there Sultan. Self Righteous much?
And as for Buzz's usage of Jake over Todd? NO, Jake Thomas should not have played more minutes than Todd Mayo..regardless of if Todd was late to practice. Clarify though you mention Todd was late to practice multiple times? Yet he got suspended for the one game he was late the week prior...Wisconsin. So Buzz didn't stay consistent and suspend Todd for other games when he was late to practice prior to the game? Seems odd...if he was late "multiple" times.
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Buzz recruited Todd to Marquette, okay? Buzz was responsible for him being on campus. Buzz needed to figure out a way to make it work. And so, you are suggesting Buzz should have turned his back on Todd at the first hint of trouble/struggle? Did you ever make mistakes as a 19-22 year old? Let me guess, probably not? LOL. And let me guess, your childhood was so similar to Todd's, right? Moving all over, 4 different high schools, no father figure in your life?
I am curious why you defended Vander so profusely, yet had such an issue with Todd. They aren't a whole lot different in any way, shape or form. Todd never punched another student or got charged with any law breaking offenses at MU. Vander? Nope. Assault. Yet you defended Vander all along during his MU career? Why?
I don't fault Buzz for trying to stick with Todd....as his issues were generally things that harmed Todd, and Todd alone. Struggling academically, after going to 4 different high schools in 4 years is to be expected. Being late a few times to practice or class?? Wow. Felony type stuff right there Sultan. Self Righteous much?
And as for Buzz's usage of Jake over Todd? NO, Jake Thomas should not have played more minutes than Todd Mayo..regardless of if Todd was late to practice. Clarify though you mention Todd was late to practice multiple times? Yet he got suspended for the one game he was late the week prior...Wisconsin. So Buzz didn't stay consistent and suspend Todd for other games when he was late to practice prior to the game? Seems odd...if he was late "multiple" times.
I agree with your first the paragraphs but not your last one. What motivation does any player have to follow the coach's directions if someone breaking those rules isn't disciplined for it? It may sacrifice weeks in the short term, but it gains them in the long term because players will buy into the coach's decisions and (in theory) play better.
I also think Jake getting as many minutes as he did was a necessary evil. Defenses already filled the lane enough. Jake was the only one who had enough consistent range to spread them out.
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There is so much Ners to wade through here....but I'll give it a go.
First, being academically ineligible isn't "the first hint of trouble." It was the tip of the iceberg. His habits were poor when he got to MU and continued his freshman year. Yeah, being at four high schools certainly didn't help, but this is Marquette...not some JUCO. Marquette isn't a rehab school for bad students. It is a fairly decent, nationally ranked university. He probably shouldn't have been here in the first place.
Second, of course I got into trouble. But I was never on academic probation, and I can count the number of classes I missed on one hand. Furthermore, I wasn't receiving a full tuition scholarship for playing a sport. That is a privilege. It requires you to do your part. To be part of the team. To show up on time. To work in the classroom.
Third, Vander's issues all happened his first semester on campus. Since then he was academically eligible, and to my knowledge never late to a practice. You continuously attempt to compare the two, but in retrospect they simply aren't comparable.
And finally, you bang on me for not knowing basketball, let you basically just said that you would play a guy who was late to practice and a poor teammate. Holy crap. Fine. Good luck with that.
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There is so much Ners to wade through here....but I'll give it a go.
First, being academically ineligible isn't "the first hint of trouble." It was the tip of the iceberg. His habits were poor when he got to MU and continued his freshman year. Yeah, being at four high schools certainly didn't help, but this is Marquette...not some JUCO. Marquette isn't a rehab school for bad students. It is a fairly decent, nationally ranked university. He probably shouldn't have been here in the first place.
Second, of course I got into trouble. But I was never on academic probation, and I can count the number of classes I missed on one hand. Furthermore, I wasn't receiving a full tuition scholarship for playing a sport. That is a privilege. It requires you to do your part. To be part of the team. To show up on time. To work in the classroom.
Third, Vander's issues all happened his first semester on campus. Since then he was academically eligible, and to my knowledge never late to a practice. You continuously attempt to compare the two, but in retrospect they simply aren't comparable.
And finally, you bang on me for not knowing basketball, let you basically just said that you would play a guy who was late to practice and a poor teammate. Holy crap. Fine. Good luck with that.
He played for his high school varsity team Sultan. Don't question his basketball knowledge.
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I can count the number of classes I missed on one hand.
well, that's only because that sonuvabitch Horton Roe took attendance!!
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NBA GM's are not drafting 24 year old seniors unless their world beaters or can contribute to a franchise....
Todd didn't start over Jake Thomas... LMFAO Jake Thomas are you kidding me. He has 0% chance of playing in the NBA.
Nevada- WTF is the point of your response to my post? I never said I think he'll play in the NBA, I made clear quite the opposite is my opinion, he can't play, and that's why the NBA won't consider him. It's nothing to do with his age that they won't look at him. Plus, the bold part is the point I was already making.
CJ Wilcox will be 24 years old before next January 1, yet the Clippers took him in the FIRST round this year, which proves my point that the NBA is not going to shun any player just because a guy is already 23,24 years old when they enter the league. Is CJ Wilcox being considered the second coming of Lebron? Of course not, but the NBA people believe he has the game to play at their level. Period, end of story. Other than injuries, or character issues, a guy isn't getting passed over completely by the league simply because he's at the ripe old age of 23 or 24!!! It may drop them a few rungs lower, but won't turn the NBA off based on that alone.
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There is so much Ners to wade through here....but I'll give it a go.
First, being academically ineligible isn't "the first hint of trouble." It was the tip of the iceberg. His habits were poor when he got to MU and continued his freshman year. Yeah, being at four high schools certainly didn't help, but this is Marquette...not some JUCO. Marquette isn't a rehab school for bad students. It is a fairly decent, nationally ranked university. He probably shouldn't have been here in the first place.
Second, of course I got into trouble. But I was never on academic probation, and I can count the number of classes I missed on one hand. Furthermore, I wasn't receiving a full tuition scholarship for playing a sport. That is a privilege. It requires you to do your part. To be part of the team. To show up on time. To work in the classroom.
Third, Vander's issues all happened his first semester on campus. Since then he was academically eligible, and to my knowledge never late to a practice. You continuously attempt to compare the two, but in retrospect they simply aren't comparable.
And finally, you bang on me for not knowing basketball, let you basically just said that you would play a guy who was late to practice and a poor teammate. Holy crap. Fine. Good luck with that.
LOL - Laughable. Still waiting for you to answer the question - If Todd got suspended for the arguably the biggest game of the season at Wisconsin for being late to practice - then why if he was late MULTIPLE times as you post, was he not then suspended for future games? Inconsistent discipline on Buzz's part?
And regarding academics - guess what - all things don't come equally for different people in the academic setting. Todd's upbringing made it that much more difficult for him to succeed academically. Pretty sure Vander Blue went to 4 years of high school at Madison Memorial, no? And let's face it, exceptions to admissions standards are made all across the country for talented basketball and football players. So please, spare me the "It's a fairly decent nationally ranked university" crap.
He played for his high school varsity team Sultan. Don't question his basketball knowledge.
Nice Wades -your basketball "knowledge" is on display comically here 365 days a year. So now that we lost our 3 leading scorers from last year and have no bigs...considering you feel last year's team wasn't poorly coached by Buzz - what are you going to say when we are better than 17-15 this upcoming season with virtually no big men, and losing our 3 returning leading scorers and over 25 years of experience in the program?
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And regarding academics - guess what - all things don't come equally for different people in the academic setting. Todd's upbringing made it that much more difficult for him to succeed academically. Pretty sure Vander Blue went to 4 years of high school at Madison Memorial, no? And let's face it, exceptions to admissions standards are made all across the country for talented basketball and football players. So please, spare me the "It's a fairly decent nationally ranked university" crap.
We aren't talking about admission standards, we are talking about what they do when they are here. Todd repeatedly showed that he either didn't have the aptitude, or the desire, to handle Marquette's academics.
So what exactly do you want Marquette to do?
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Nice Wades -your basketball "knowledge" is on display comically here 365 days a year. So now that we lost our 3 leading scorers from last year and have no bigs...considering you feel last year's team wasn't poorly coached by Buzz - what are you going to say when we are better than 17-15 this upcoming season with virtually no big men, and losing our 3 returning leading scorers and over 25 years of experience in the program?
This is dumb even for you. You mean teams graduate players year to year and sometimes get better? Weird. After graduating Jae Crowder and DJO, our 2 best players, 2 of the best players to play at Marquette in the last 20 years, we went from being a 2nd place BE team and S16 team to a BE champion and E8 team the next year. How could that possibly happen Ners?
It's called player development kid. I know you don't understand the idea that players actually get better outside of the 40 minutes of game time 30 times a year, but they actually do. In fact, our players are hard at work getting better every day this summer, hitting the weight room, developing their skills in off season workouts, working on conditioning, fine tuning their fundamentals, etc. As our very own Al McGuire once said, "The best thing about freshman is that they become sophomores." I understand that you think a player can't get better from year to year, especially if they aren't getting 1,200 minutes of game time in a season, but the best coach in Marquette basketball history believed it. But what does he know? Ners played varsity high school basketball and players don't develop outside of games!
So to answer the question:
1) Player development (you will see, even players who didn't play 40 minutes/game can improve with an offseason and some practice).
2) Health.
3) New players on the roster.
I don't know how this is hard to understand. But hey, what do I know, you played varsity basketball in high school and can still dunk. They call you LBJ.
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Nevada- WTF is the point of your response to my post? I never said I think he'll play in the NBA, I made clear quite the opposite is my opinion, he can't play, and that's why the NBA won't consider him. It's nothing to do with his age that they won't look at him. Plus, the bold part is the point I was already making.
CJ Wilcox will be 24 years old before next January 1, yet the Clippers took him in the FIRST round this year, which proves my point that the NBA is not going to shun any player just because a guy is already 23,24 years old when they enter the league. Is CJ Wilcox being considered the second coming of Lebron? Of course not, but the NBA people believe he has the game to play at their level. Period, end of story. Other than injuries, or character issues, a guy isn't getting passed over completely by the league simply because he's at the ripe old age of 23 or 24!!! It may drop them a few rungs lower, but won't turn the NBA off based on that alone.
We agree todd mayo does not have next level talent..
That mixed with his baggage will never have him in the league.
Anyone around him even his brother can tell him hes got no chance. But I agree with you.
If you got the Goods and are 23,24 you can make a roster but not a player who didnt even start at last years 17-15 Marquette.
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We agree todd mayo have next level talent..
That mixed with his baggage will never have him in the league.
Anyone around him even his brother can tell him hes got no chance. But I agree with you.
If you got the Goods and are 23,24 you can make a roster but not a player who didnt even start at last years 17-15 Marquette.
No we don't. He has never shown an NBA skillset.
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No we don't. He has never shown an NBA skillset.
I surely meant does not have.... NBA Talent.
Europe at best.
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I am curious why you defended Vander so profusely, yet had such an issue with Todd. They aren't a whole lot different in any way, shape or form. Todd never punched another student or got charged with any law breaking offenses at MU. Vander? Nope. Assaiult. Yet you defended Vander all along during his MU career?
I punched multiple people in the face when I was at Marquette. Everyone of them deserved it.
But I NEVER acted like I was bigger than the program. Todd Mayo did. Vander didn't.
I wish Todd the best of luck, though I really do. I just don't think Marquette was the right fit for him. It happens.
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I punched multiple people in the face when I was at Marquette. Everyone of them deserved it.
But I NEVER acted like I was bigger than the program. Todd Mayo did. Vander didn't.
I wish Todd the best of luck, though I really do. I just don't think Marquette was the right fit for him. It happens.
Fighting's bad
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Again, reminding you all that you are acting just as toolish as Todd has by ripping the kid. This is why scoop really pisses me off. A month ago he was going to be a 18 ppg scorer for MU now that hes gone all of these stories about how horrible a person he was come out. Now I know some stories about Todd myself but again, wish him nothing but the best in his endevors. Some of your REALLY disgust me with your comments.
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I can count the number of classes I missed on one hand.
Me too.
I can count the number of classes I missed per week on one hand.
OK, maybe two hands.
Jeezus H ... how the hell did I graduate?
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Alternatively, he has a bad case of sibling rivalry and thinks he's better than OJ.
Proof?
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Where did you get this? Is this from a source in the program or are you just assuming this is what happened?
Not an assumption. Mayo basically went AWOL and was told he was no longer on team when he did report.
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This is dumb even for you. You mean teams graduate players year to year and sometimes get better? Weird. After graduating Jae Crowder and DJO, our 2 best players, 2 of the best players to play at Marquette in the last 20 years, we went from being a 2nd place BE team and S16 team to a BE champion and E8 team the next year. How could that possibly happen Ners?
It's called player development kid. I know you don't understand the idea that players actually get better outside of the 40 minutes of game time 30 times a year, but they actually do. In fact, our players are hard at work getting better every day this summer, hitting the weight room, developing their skills in off season workouts, working on conditioning, fine tuning their fundamentals, etc. As our very own Al McGuire once said, "The best thing about freshman is that they become sophomores." I understand that you think a player can't get better from year to year, especially if they aren't getting 1,200 minutes of game time in a season, but the best coach in Marquette basketball history believed it. But what does he know? Ners played varsity high school basketball and players don't develop outside of games!
So to answer the question:
1) Player development (you will see, even players who didn't play 40 minutes/game can improve with an offseason and some practice).
2) Health.
3) New players on the roster.
I don't know how this is hard to understand. But hey, what do I know, you played varsity basketball in high school and can still dunk. They call you LBJ.
You are a weird dude Wades. I'm trying to figure out what you really believe. You said in another thread, even if we had a space clogging big, that wasn't even a threat to score offensively - you'd think we might have a chance at the postseason....sounded to me like your expectation for the team this year is to miss the NIT again....
Trying to follow your logic, when last season we had a space eating big, AND a very efficient and effective scoring big, and you are convinced bigs are necessary to win at a high level in D-1 - yet we had them last season...and how did that work out? What happened? Where do you attribute blame for the poor season last season? We all know you didn't assign blame in the backcourt, nor with Buzz - just trying to follow how you see the game?
And as for your 1, 2 and 3 reasons listed above. Only 1 is valid - yes, players do get better in the offseason...yet, when the guys in front of them as freshman are so incredibly non-productive - the better course of action would have been to get the freshman more game experience and playing together for the future of the program. Then again, Buzz didn't really care about that, because he was gone. Please don't give me the garbage about "health." MU was healthy all season long - perhaps other than Steve Taylor. And as for new players on the roster - sorry, but Sandy Cohen and Matt Carlino, aren't exactly great replacements for Todd, Jamil, Davante, Chris, and even throw in Jake if you want.
However, what you will find this upcoming season, is that our backcourt play should be greatly improved, and with that alone the team will be able to exceed 17-15.
And btw, let me guess, you were in band in high school? Or were you the water boy for the basketball team?
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You are a weird dude Wades. I'm trying to figure out what you really believe. You said in another thread, even if we had a space clogging big, that wasn't even a threat to score offensively - you'd think we might have a chance at the postseason....sounded to me like your expectation for the team this year is to miss the NIT again....
Trying to follow your logic, when last season we had a space eating big, AND a very efficient and effective scoring big, and you are convinced bigs are necessary to win at a high level in D-1 - yet we had them last season...and how did that work out? What happened? Where do you attribute blame for the poor season last season? We all know you didn't assign blame in the backcourt, nor with Buzz - just trying to follow how you see the game?
And as for your 1, 2 and 3 reasons listed above. Only 1 is valid - yes, players do get better in the offseason...yet, when the guys in front of them as freshman are so incredibly non-productive - the better course of action would have been to get the freshman more game experience and playing together for the future of the program. Then again, Buzz didn't really care about that, because he was gone. Please don't give me the garbage about "health." MU was healthy all season long - perhaps other than Steve Taylor. And as for new players on the roster - sorry, but Sandy Cohen and Matt Carlino, aren't exactly great replacements for Todd, Jamil, Davante, Chris, and even throw in Jake if you want.
However, what you will find this upcoming season, is that our backcourt play should be greatly improved, and with that alone the team will be able to exceed 17-15.
And btw, let me guess, you were in band in high school? Or were you the water boy for the basketball team?
Ners that is my fault on not clarifying. I don't think a dominant big is necessary to win. I just think having a 6'7" kid who is truly a wing as your center is not a recipe for success. If Steve was a Jae Crowder type who was an animal down low and ate up every rebound despite being undersized, I would be more confident. Steve has shown some ability to rebound and I hope he proves to be a stud down low, but I think he is more a wing than a big who this year will have to play like a big. And if he gets into foul trouble that moves 6'4" Deonte Burton to the center spot. I know Deonte can hold his own in the post, he is a freaking ox, but ANY 6'4" guy will struggle to keep a 6'10"-7' from getting some clean looks down low.
As far as health goes, I don't know about you, but I personally thought the loss of Duane Wilson to injury last year was a pretty big deal. Maybe I'm wrong there and he stinks.
Matt Carlino is a great replacement. He's exactly what last year's team was missing. A senior who is willing to step up and take a big shot. We will be much better in the back court with Carlino, a healthy Wilson, and a year in the weight room and gym for the other guys.
Buzz is at fault last year...not for playing the wrong guys, but for not getting the right guys on the roster. I have never argued Derrick was a complete stud. He was the best option for what we had on the roster last year. It's not hard to understand. I have said it over and over and over and over. Maybe you will understand it this time.
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Ners that is my fault on not clarifying. I don't think a dominant big is necessary to win. I just think having a 6'7" kid who is truly a wing as your center is not a recipe for success. If Steve was a Jae Crowder type who was an animal down low and ate up every rebound despite being undersized, I would be more confident. Steve has shown some ability to rebound and I hope he proves to be a stud down low, but I think he is more a wing than a big who this year will have to play like a big. And if he gets into foul trouble that moves 6'4" Deonte Burton to the center spot. I know Deonte can hold his own in the post, he is a freaking ox, but ANY 6'4" guy will struggle to keep a 6'10"-7' from getting some clean looks down low.
As far as health goes, I don't know about you, but I personally thought the loss of Duane Wilson to injury last year was a pretty big deal. Maybe I'm wrong there and he stinks.
Matt Carlino is a great replacement. He's exactly what last year's team was missing. A senior who is willing to step up and take a big shot. We will be much better in the back court with Carlino, a healthy Wilson, and a year in the weight room and gym for the other guys.
Buzz is at fault last year...not for playing the wrong guys, but for not getting the right guys on the roster. I have never argued Derrick was a complete stud. He was the best option for what we had on the roster last year. It's not hard to understand. I have said it over and over and over and over. Maybe you will understand it this time.
Yes, I can agree with you that Jae Crowder was a stud at this level. Also know the team of midgets and Lazar made the NCAA...much less not missing the NIT. Guard play is key. Buzz chose to play the most limited combination* of guards I've ever seen at this level max minutes last season. My point all along last year, and one that you and the other few can't seem to grasp is: It wasn't going to get worse playing Dawson and JJJ in place of Derrick and Jake 20 minutes a game...and Burton in place of Juan for 25 minutes a game.
And as for Duane being out last season, I really, really, really doubt that Buzz would have given him 30 minutes a game. Deonte couldn't exceed 12 and he virtually dominated every game he was put in. And, it was pretty well known that Duane was struggling in practice early on. Not one of the returning players cited him as the most impressive newcomer. Deonte and Dawson were the two players named by the vets. I'm excited about what Duane can bring to the team, yet I'd be shocked if Buzz would have somehow rolled him out last season for 30.
Last point on that - You may recall Buzz basically saying in 2012-2013 season: "Derrick really, should be starting over Junior, but Junior is my guy, and a senior, and I told Derrick - I'm going to roll with Junior, but I'll do the same for you next season."
Well....Buzz proved to be a man of his word in that account. And I also think Buzz knew a large part of the fanbase was beyond miffed with his choice in the backcourt - and he egotistically either felt he was a good enough coach to win and overcome that and could give those critical of him in the fanbase a big F You - or, if he didn't win, it was still an F You, I'm in control here and this is my team.....and my bags are pretty much packed anyway.
I loved Buzz Years 1 through 5 and though he was a very good coach. Yet his decision making last season was so poor, and so contrary to being a good coach - that is why I turned on him. I couldn't believe what I was seeing..and damn well know Buzz knew better, and knew it was going to be really hard to win with those guys. The program and team could have benefitted if he turned the keys over to the talented freshman class.
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Steve has shown some ability to rebound and I hope he proves to be a stud down low, but I think he is more a wing than a big who this year will have to play like a big. And if he gets into foul trouble that moves 6'4" Deonte Burton to the center spot. I know Deonte can hold his own in the post, he is a freaking ox, but ANY 6'4" guy will struggle to keep a 6'10"-7' from getting some clean looks down low.
The best way to deal with a size disadvantage is for the guards to make the entry pass difficult. I think we'll see a very aggressive man defense with some pressure. The biggest key for them to get through the first 8 games is rebounding. Steve, Juan, and Deonte have to hit the glass hard. Guards will have to chip in as well.
It will be difficult, but not impossible for this team. Still have a hunch they surprise us.
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It is a fairly decent, nationally ranked university.
How dare you, sir. We are the Duke of the Midwest!
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Well....Buzz proved to be a man of his word in that account. And I also think Buzz knew a large part of the fanbase was beyond miffed with his choice in the backcourt - and he egotistically either felt he was a good enough coach to win and overcome that and could give those critical of him in the fanbase a big F You - or, if he didn't win, it was still an F You, I'm in control here and this is my team.
This is why I can no longer take you seriously. You think that a guy with back to back to back S16,S16, E8 seasons should give a crap if you and Willie Warrior are "miffed" about the lineup he chooses to play? Really? One last time. He didn't play Derrick 30 minutes a game because he owed him or wanted to egotistically tell the world F you. He was trying to win games and from what he saw (and the numbers bear him out) Derrick was the best of a lot of substandard options available. He tried John D, Jamil and Todd at the point, all to no avail. The numbers prove JD wasn't ready, and as Henry has pointed out in the past, a 10 mpg guy likely gets even LESS efficient with more PT. Your "we couldn't have been much worse with Dawson" may be right from a won/loss standpoint, I suppose. Buzz could have thrown in the towel, sat Derrick and turned those heartbreaking OT losses down the stretch into blow out losses, but he was still trying to win games.
You accuse me of being anti Dawson and saying he'll never be good. That's an outright lie. I think he could BECOME a very good player. But NO WAY was he ready as a freshman.
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Deonte couldn't exceed 12 and he virtually dominated every game he was put in.
Right. He dominated every game he played.
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This is why I can no longer take you seriously. You think that a guy with back to back to back S16,S16, E8 seasons should give a crap if you and Willie Warrior are "miffed" about the lineup he chooses to play? Really? One last time. He didn't play Derrick 30 minutes a game because he owed him or wanted to egotistically tell the world F you. He was trying to win games and from what he saw (and the numbers bear him out) Derrick was the best of a lot of substandard options available. He tried John D, Jamil and Todd at the point, all to no avail. The numbers prove JD wasn't ready, and as Henry has pointed out in the past, a 10 mpg guy likely gets even LESS efficient with more PT. Your "we couldn't have been much worse with Dawson" may be right from a won/loss standpoint, I suppose. Buzz could have thrown in the towel, sat Derrick and turned those heartbreaking OT losses down the stretch into blow out losses, but he was still trying to win games.
You accuse me of being anti Dawson and saying he'll never be good. That's an outright lie. I think he could BECOME a very good player. But NO WAY was he ready as a freshman.
LOL - Pomroy doesn't even assign an O Rating to a guy who plays less than 10 minutes in a game as he deems it statistically irrelevant...and for the year, Dawson averaged 10 minutes per game. Thus, Dawson's O-Rating for the year in Pomroy and Sugar's view essentially is statistically irrelevant. Dawson played more than 10 minutes in just 11 games - so his ratings that Sugar cites were built off of 11 out of 32 games.
If you want to get a little more relevant...look at Dawson's ratings where he got 13+ minutes per game - oddly in those 6 games is O-Rating was 97.42 - well above the 85 for the season - yet that is playing more 3+ minutes more per game - according to you and Sugar - ratings come down when a player plays more minutes? Odd.
In the 5 games Dawson played between 10-13 minutes his rating was O Rating was 76. Hmm. Odd.
That was my point all year....give the guy more playing time...more run...and you'll get more. You agree Dawson has basketball talent, so the more time on the court, the more likely that talent eventually will surface. Just as it did in the Georgetown game on the road. Dawson was OK during regulation, but Buzz stuck with him, and he put up 7 points in Overtime in those 5 minutes. The talent eventually leads to performance.
Dawson got 1 game of 30+ minutes. His rating: 148. And to give you an example of how low minutes radically skew guys O Ratings...in 11 minutes against St. John's Dawson had a rating of 21 - totally terrible, right?? What were his numbers in that game?? 0-1 shooting, 2 rebounds, 1 foul. No turnovers, no assists. For context, how many 11 minute segments this past season do you think Derrick compiled similar numbers?? Now in 12 minutes against DePaul he gets a 174 rating for 5 points, on 1 of 1 shooting from 3 point line, and 1 of 2 from 2. 1 rebound, 1 assist, 2 personal fouls...and I don't feel that is an amazing stat line either.
For the last time...a PG that doesn't need to be defended other than 2 feet from the goal that causes you to play 4 on 5 is NOT your best option. Period. Get over Buzz. He sucked last year. Your defense of him is as lame and ridiculous as is Chico's over Tom Crean. Makes you look just as dumb.
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Can you two get a room or PM each other? What does this have to do with Todd....
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Me too.
I can count the number of classes I missed per week on one hand.
OK, maybe two hands.
Jeezus H ... how the hell did I graduate?
I had similar issues. After the first couple of weeks freshman year I'm sure I never went a week without cutting at least a couple of classes. Even got a "B" once in a Horton Roe class due to cuts.
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Can you two get a room or PM each other? What does this have to do with Todd....
+1
Ners, I know you are going to say Lenny baited you in discussing D&D, but wasn't Rocky's warning clear enough for you?
I respect your opinions, but you've gone waaaaay to far on D&D. And don't blame others for baiting you.
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shenanigans
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The biggest key for them to get through the first 8 games is rebounding. Steve, Juan, and Deonte have to hit the glass hard. Guards will have to chip in as well.
The one thing STJr and Juan have shown they are good at is rebounding, particularly Steve. I think, however, the problem is we'll be extremely offensively challenged upfront. He's hoping Steve build upon his Freshman year and forgets all about last year.
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And btw, let me guess, you were in band in high school? Or were you the water boy for the basketball team?
This isn't the first time you've used this line. I was in the band in high school. I played in the Marquette band for a bit too. What is your point? Because you played basketball in high school while I played my baritone you somehow know more about basketball now?
You and I and most scoopers are all students of the game. Other than the handful of former college athletes here, none of us deserve anymore credibility (about on the court play) than anyone else. Your opinion, my opinion, Chico's opinion, Willie's opinion, MU82's opinion, Lenny's opinion, Sultan's opinion, Wojo's Mojo's opinion, are all equally valid. None of us can claim to know anymore about playing college basketball.
I respect your opinion. Please respect mine, and others.
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This is why I can no longer take you seriously. You think that a guy with back to back to back S16,S16, E8 seasons should give a crap if you and Willie Warrior are "miffed" about the lineup he chooses to play? Really? One last time. He didn't play Derrick 30 minutes a game because he owed him or wanted to egotistically tell the world F you. He was trying to win games and from what he saw (and the numbers bear him out) Derrick was the best of a lot of substandard options available. He tried John D, Jamil and Todd at the point, all to no avail. The numbers prove JD wasn't ready, and as Henry has pointed out in the past, a 10 mpg guy likely gets even LESS efficient with more PT. Your "we couldn't have been much worse with Dawson" may be right from a won/loss standpoint, I suppose. Buzz could have thrown in the towel, sat Derrick and turned those heartbreaking OT losses down the stretch into blow out losses, but he was still trying to win games.
You accuse me of being anti Dawson and saying he'll never be good. That's an outright lie. I think he could BECOME a very good player. But NO WAY was he ready as a freshman.
I think Buzz was always trying to do what he thought was best to win games. However, I also think he got stubborn and it colored his vision. The more people complained about Wilson vs. Dawson (which became who was smarter Buzz or MU scoop) playing time the more Buzz got stubborn about the situation. There is no other way I can explain how Dawson could be the hero against Georgetown and then virtually not play the next game. Dawson simply having a great game was giving MU Scooper's the upper hand and I actually think that threaten Buzz's ego. What I found even more interesting is that at some point during the Big East season Buzz for a couple of games actually started JJJ and Burton. Then Burton continued to play and JJJ fell off the map. I am purely guessing here, but I think Buzz started JJJ to try to make him happy so he would not transfer and then decided JJJ was going to transfer anyways so he stopped playing him.
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The one thing STJr and Juan have shown they are good at is rebounding, particularly Steve. I think, however, the problem is we'll be extremely offensively challenged upfront. He's hoping Steve build upon his Freshman year and forgets all about last year.
Can definitely see that being an issue. My hope is that with Carlino, Duane, JJJ, and Dawson getting more run, the outside shooting threat will open the floor up for more drives/dump offs to the post.
Last year's team was abysmal at forcing help off the dribble. Probably the worst I've seen in the 25 years I've watched MU.
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+1
Ners, I know you are going to say Lenny baited you in discussing D&D, but wasn't Rocky's warning clear enough for you?
I respect your opinions, but you've gone waaaaay to far on D&D. And don't blame others for baiting you.
It's a message board Chili, and the threads evolve that generate additional debate and conversation. Why am I not able to counterpoint a position I disagree with? I was adding context to the discussion with the analysis of O-Ratings and how they are constructed, and rebutting the point that the more minutes a player plays, that the rating generally goes down. It didn't in Dawson's case. There was a pretty significant difference in rating 97 in games over 13 minutes, and 78 in games between 10 and 13 minutes over the 11 game sample size Pomroy assigned ratings too. It's a valid point to consider.
I'm not disrespecting Rocky's warning, anymore than is Lenny or the others in debating their position...
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This isn't the first time you've used this line. I was in the band in high school. I played in the Marquette band for a bit too. What is your point? Because you played basketball in high school while I played my baritone you somehow know more about basketball now?
You and I and most scoopers are all students of the game. Other than the handful of former college athletes here, none of us deserve anymore credibility (about on the court play) than anyone else. Your opinion, my opinion, Chico's opinion, Willie's opinion, MU82's opinion, Lenny's opinion, Sultan's opinion, Wojo's Mojo's opinion, are all equally valid. None of us can claim to know anymore about playing college basketball.
I respect your opinion. Please respect mine, and others.
I wouldn't think for a second to form opinions on someone playing the baritone - something I know virtually nothing about...as I've never played it. Same with piano players. Yes, I can recognize some play beautifully, but since I've never played either, I can't really comment on the nuances.
And for what it is worth, I played a ton with all the guys on the team back in my day in the offseason, along with some Milwaukee Bucks, coached at all of MU's basketball camps while Mike Deane was there, as I always balled with Mike Rice and the guys on the team - and they knew I wasn't a stiff - which is why they had me coaching at their camps. No, it doesn't make me a D-1 college ballplayer, but it does give one a little better understanding of the game than one who hasn't played it a ton.
That said it doesn't mean you or the others don't make good points at times, nor does it mean you don't add value here - you guys do. As you know I just refuse to believe Buzz did a good job last year, nor do I believe he truly was doing his best to win games.
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It's a message board Chili, and the threads evolve that generate additional debate and conversation. Why am I not able to counterpoint a position I disagree with? I was adding context to the discussion with the analysis of O-Ratings and how they are constructed, and rebutting the point that the more minutes a player plays, that the rating generally goes down. It didn't in Dawson's case. There was a pretty significant difference in rating 97 in games over 13 minutes, and 78 in games between 10 and 13 minutes over the 11 game sample size Pomroy assigned ratings too. It's a valid point to consider.
I'm not disrespecting Rocky's warning, anymore than is Lenny or the others in debating their position...
It is valid to consider. Also valid to consider that maybe he only got 10-13 minutes BECAUSE he was playing poorly. And he got >13 minutes BECAUSE he was playing well. The jump-to-conclusions can go both ways
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It is valid to consider. Also valid to consider that maybe he only got 10-13 minutes BECAUSE he was playing poorly. And he got >13 minutes BECAUSE he was playing well. The jump-to-conclusions can go both ways
Exactly. if a guy normally plays 10 minutes, of course on those rare occasions when he is playing very well he'll get more minutes. DUH! A crummy starting pitcher will get his max (100 pitches?) if he's having one of his rare good days. Doesn't mean you don't yank him in the third inning after 60 pitches if he's getting torched. In every sport, the unproven player has a shorter leash. You EARN a longer one, and it doesn't happen in one or two games.
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It is valid to consider. Also valid to consider that maybe he only got 10-13 minutes BECAUSE he was playing poorly. And he got >13 minutes BECAUSE he was playing well. The jump-to-conclusions can go both ways
As I pointed out...Dawson got a rating of 21 in 11 minutes in a performance that was 0-1 shooting, 2 rebounds, no fouls, no assists...is that really playing poorly...compared to what we were getting from the guy in front of him??
Furthermore, it is really hard to tell if a guy is playing "good" when you typically play him for 2 to 3 minute stints at a time. That is what may be hard for those of you who have never played the game at a decent level can't understand - you don't automatically come into a game and within 2 or 3 minutes make an impact. Hard to rack up any kind of numbers in that type of usage. Period.
Exactly. if a guy normally plays 10 minutes, of course on those rare occasions when he is playing very well he'll get more minutes. DUH! A crummy starting pitcher will get his max (100 pitches?) if he's having one of his rare good days. Doesn't mean you don't yank him in the third inning after 60 pitches if he's getting torched. In every sport, the unproven player has a shorter leash. You EARN a longer one, and it doesn't happen in one or two games.
Let's just be real....the leash for one guy was so incredibly long last season it defied explanation...and the leash for his backup?? Incredibly short. I'm curious what you feel Derrick did to earn that incredibly long leash? And if it were true that you earn more leash with better performance, why after Dawson performed so well on the road at Georgetown...why did Buzz only give him 8 minutes against Nova in the next game??
As I said before Lenny - your ridiculous defenses of Buzz make you look as dumb as Chicos and his taking up for Tom Crean. Please don't be that guy for the next 6 years.
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And for what it is worth, I played a ton with all the guys on the team back in my day in the offseason, along with some Milwaukee Bucks, coached at all of MU's basketball camps while Mike Deane was there, as I always balled with Mike Rice and the guys on the team - and they knew I wasn't a stiff - which is why they had me coaching at their camps. No, it doesn't make me a D-1 college ballplayer, but it does give one a little better understanding of the game than one who hasn't played it a ton.
Ners...this post exposes you as much bigger dork than any "water boy" or band member (I love the band) could ever hope to be. What a loser.
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As I said before Lenny - your ridiculous defenses of Buzz make you look as dumb as Chicos and his taking up for Tom Crean. Please don't be that guy for the next 6 years.
Ding, ding, ding. Finally, something I can agree with - you HAVE said this before. Over and over and over and over again. You're smart, anyone who doesn't agree with you (poster's, basketball writers, our former head coach, etc.) is dumb. Stubbornly, intentionally dumb. So dumb that you feel terrible and beg them to cease with their dumbness. I'm humbled by your concern over my dumbness and will sincerely try not to remain so dumb going forward. Thank you.
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And for what it is worth, I played a ton with all the guys on the team back in my day in the offseason, along with some Milwaukee Bucks, coached at all of MU's basketball camps while Mike Deane was there, as I always balled with Mike Rice and the guys on the team - and they knew I wasn't a stiff - which is why they had me coaching at their camps. No, it doesn't make me a D-1 college ballplayer, but it does give one a little better understanding of the game than one who hasn't played it a ton.
Sounds like you could teach Crean, Bazz, Scott Drew, Frank Martin and Mick Cronin a few things....
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And for what it is worth, I played a ton with all the guys on the team back in my day in the offseason, along with some Milwaukee Bucks, coached at all of MU's basketball camps while Mike Deane was there, as I always balled with Mike Rice and the guys on the team - and they knew I wasn't a stiff - which is why they had me coaching at their camps. No, it doesn't make me a D-1 college ballplayer, but it does give one a little better understanding of the game than one who hasn't played it a ton.
IWB & Scott Kuykendall want you over in this thread
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=44506.msg641544#new (http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=44506.msg641544#new)
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I had similar issues. After the first couple of weeks freshman year I'm sure I never went a week without cutting at least a couple of classes. Even got a "B" once in a Horton Roe class due to cuts.
I had friends who maybe went to class 10 times per semester. This was back n the days that profs/instructors rarely took attendance.
My deal was this: If you make your lecture or instruction interesting and mandatory for tests, I will attend. If you just lecture from the book, I don't need to go to class. And it was amazing how many profs did just that.
I didn't used to be proud of this, but I kind of am now:
I set a record that can only be tied, never be beaten (by a student who graduates in four years). I went out for beverages every night of every finals week every semester for eight semesters.
I do get an asterisk, though. One night my first semester senior year, I was sick as hell but I wanted to keep the streak going, so I went out, drank about half a beer and went home.
The rest of 'em were multiple-hour, multiple-beverage efforts, though, so I figure I was allowed that one time I was a slacker.
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I had friends who maybe went to class 10 times per semester. This was back n the days that profs/instructors rarely took attendance.
My deal was this: If you make your lecture or instruction interesting and mandatory for tests, I will attend. If you just lecture from the book, I don't need to go to class. And it was amazing how many profs did just that.
I didn't used to be proud of this, but I kind of am now:
I set a record that can only be tied, never be beaten (by a student who graduates in four years). I went out for beverages every night of every finals week every semester for eight semesters.
I do get an asterisk, though. One night my first semester senior year, I was sick as hell but I wanted to keep the streak going, so I went out, drank about half a beer and went home.
The rest of 'em were multiple-hour, multiple-beverage efforts, though, so I figure I was allowed that one time I was a slacker.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but were you a Communications major?
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Why is it on this forum that everyones opinion on anyone from Marquette changes 100% the second they leave?
Sure, there's some truth to this freeing up the depth for the younger guys and getting them experience, but why are we going "he was terrible anyways" "he never did anything". You all were singing a different tune last year when he was coming off the bench and lighting up the board during that terrible season. So many of you questioned why he wasn't starting, but now that hes gone everyone's declared that he was awful the entire time?
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Why is it on this forum that everyones opinion on anyone from Marquette changes 100% the second they leave?
Because college sports fans (and to a lesser extent pro sports fans, in my opinion) are actually rooting for clothes. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we-L7w1K5Zo)
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I wouldn't think for a second to form opinions on someone playing the baritone - something I know virtually nothing about...as I've never played it. Same with piano players. Yes, I can recognize some play beautifully, but since I've never played either, I can't really comment on the nuances.
And for what it is worth, I played a ton with all the guys on the team back in my day in the offseason, along with some Milwaukee Bucks, coached at all of MU's basketball camps while Mike Deane was there, as I always balled with Mike Rice and the guys on the team - and they knew I wasn't a stiff - which is why they had me coaching at their camps. No, it doesn't make me a D-1 college ballplayer, but it does give one a little better understanding of the game than one who hasn't played it a ton.
That said it doesn't mean you or the others don't make good points at times, nor does it mean you don't add value here - you guys do. As you know I just refuse to believe Buzz did a good job last year, nor do I believe he truly was doing his best to win games.
nm. Why fight it.
Oh wtf. Ners. I'd think a guy with such a stellar background would do a better job of evaluating talent.
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I had friends who maybe went to class 10 times per semester. This was back n the days that profs/instructors rarely took attendance.
My deal was this: If you make your lecture or instruction interesting and mandatory for tests, I will attend. If you just lecture from the book, I don't need to go to class. And it was amazing how many profs did just that.
I didn't used to be proud of this, but I kind of am now:
I set a record that can only be tied, never be beaten (by a student who graduates in four years). I went out for beverages every night of every finals week every semester for eight semesters.
I do get an asterisk, though. One night my first semester senior year, I was sick as hell but I wanted to keep the streak going, so I went out, drank about half a beer and went home.
The rest of 'em were multiple-hour, multiple-beverage efforts, though, so I figure I was allowed that one time I was a slacker.
Finals were slightly more stressful for me, especially in my junior and senior years when I lived off campus in apartments. Second semester junior year stands out in my memory. I was taking 5 classes and in all the final grade was based on some combination of papers and a final (a couple may have had a mid term thrown in). In each class, the final was worth something close to 50% of my final grade. I had missed LOTS of classes (Lenny's Tap was next door, we had an early spring and there was much celebrating over our NIT Championship) but I knew many people who were more diligent about class attendance than me. At a reasonable hour (10pm?) when they were finished studying for the following day's final one kind person from each of my classes would give me his/her notes. I was fortunate to have only one test per day throughout the week, all at 8am. At 10pm Sunday night my odyssey began. Study all night, take test from 8-10 am, stop at the Lanche for a couple, home by noon and right to bed. Up at 8pm, eat, borrow more notes for following day's test, another all nighter, take test, drink, sleep, etc. Thanks to a spread out exam schedule and friends who went to class and took good notes I had my best semester ever. Ah, college.
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I had friends who maybe went to class 10 times per semester. This was back n the days that profs/instructors rarely took attendance.
My deal was this: If you make your lecture or instruction interesting and mandatory for tests, I will attend. If you just lecture from the book, I don't need to go to class. And it was amazing how many profs did just that.
I didn't used to be proud of this, but I kind of am now:
I set a record that can only be tied, never be beaten (by a student who graduates in four years). I went out for beverages every night of every finals week every semester for eight semesters.
I do get an asterisk, though. One night my first semester senior year, I was sick as hell but I wanted to keep the streak going, so I went out, drank about half a beer and went home.
The rest of 'em were multiple-hour, multiple-beverage efforts, though, so I figure I was allowed that one time I was a slacker.
At the risk of being arrogant, how much of this was you and how much was the professor?
I'm about to pay $30,000 a year to send my daughter to college (week after next). And if she's so damn smart that she can read her way through college, then it is time to think about another college. My parents worked too hard for their money to send me to college and candidly, I worked too hard to get her an education in a local tavern. If the college isn't challenging the student, it's time for either an attitude adjustment or a new college.
If you want an education at a bar, you need to be on the tap side, not on the customer side!
As a wise engineer once said to me, "It doesn't matter where you do, College is what you put into it."
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Ners...this post exposes you as much bigger dork than any "water boy" or band member (I love the band) could ever hope to be. What a loser.
PRN...the feeling is mutual. Let me know when you want to get together for a beer...would be fun to have a conversation in person. Perhaps we can hoop first. I'll be going to a few Marquette games this year - maybe we can plan to meet during one of those. Let me know which you are going to attend as I know you'll go to a few being from Chicago.
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Time to move on! Buzzard is long gone, Todd was largely never with us. As with so many, the talent was there but just too many other issues distracted him and the rest of us.
Now we have a new untested coach. We hope for the best but the coming year is a huge unknown. I would love to speculate but have really no bases with an untested coach and, a group of largely young untested players with a few veterans that have shown only limited success. Could we be a big winner this year, sure, stranger things have happened. I know for one, I have no clue until I see what magic Wojo has.
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Please don't take this the wrong way, but were you a Communications major?
Yep. So I had it relatively easy during finals week, especially by the time I was an upperclassman, because I had far more writing assignments than final exams. And I could do the writing in my sleep.
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Finals were slightly more stressful for me, especially in my junior and senior years when I lived off campus in apartments. Second semester junior year stands out in my memory. I was taking 5 classes and in all the final grade was based on some combination of papers and a final (a couple may have had a mid term thrown in). In each class, the final was worth something close to 50% of my final grade. I had missed LOTS of classes (Lenny's Tap was next door, we had an early spring and there was much celebrating over our NIT Championship) but I knew many people who were more diligent about class attendance than me. At a reasonable hour (10pm?) when they were finished studying for the following day's final one kind person from each of my classes would give me his/her notes. I was fortunate to have only one test per day throughout the week, all at 8am. At 10pm Sunday night my odyssey began. Study all night, take test from 8-10 am, stop at the Lanche for a couple, home by noon and right to bed. Up at 8pm, eat, borrow more notes for following day's test, another all nighter, take test, drink, sleep, etc. Thanks to a spread out exam schedule and friends who went to class and took good notes I had my best semester ever. Ah, college.
That's a great system!
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At the risk of being arrogant, how much of this was you and how much was the professor?
I'm about to pay $30,000 a year to send my daughter to college (week after next). And if she's so damn smart that she can read her way through college, then it is time to think about another college. My parents worked too hard for their money to send me to college and candidly, I worked too hard to get her an education in a local tavern. If the college isn't challenging the student, it's time for either an attitude adjustment or a new college.
If you want an education at a bar, you need to be on the tap side, not on the customer side!
As a wise engineer once said to me, "It doesn't matter where you do, College is what you put into it."
I won't speak for anybody else, but this was 30+ years ago. I'm guessing things have changed besides the fact that tuition is now about 10x what I paid. For one thing, I'm told that most classes take attendance now and it's mandatory to attend.
If your daughter is a good student, she will fight the urge to have too much fun. But she will have fun. It's what college students do. It's in their job description.
I do agree with your engineer friend, but I will add this: As much fun as I had, I graduated in four years with decent grades and got a good-paying (for back then) job in my field right out of college. And that was smack dab in the middle of the 1982 recession, when jobs were in short supply.
So I must have done something right ... in addition to setting that awesome record that can only be tied and never be broken!
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Todd Jumped out the window. Best of luck to him playing in Delaware or Idaho for 15K a year.
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I set a record that can only be tied, never be beaten (by a student who graduates in four years). I went out for beverages every night of every finals week every semester for eight semesters.
I do get an asterisk, though. One night my first semester senior year, I was sick as hell but I wanted to keep the streak going, so I went out, drank about half a beer and went home.
I stand in awe.
(http://amandasains.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/not-worthy.gif)
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I stand in awe.
(http://amandasains.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/not-worthy.gif)
As Mark McGwire said as he approached the 60-HR mark in 2008: "I amaze myself."
And I didn't even need 'roids to complete my task!
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Hmmmm... Lots of bragging here about how easy the MU degree was. Is that correct? I don't know except I have 24 CEU's from Marquette and remember that they did require attendance, and not much else.
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Finals were slightly more stressful for me, especially in my junior and senior years when I lived off campus in apartments. Second semester junior year stands out in my memory. I was taking 5 classes and in all the final grade was based on some combination of papers and a final (a couple may have had a mid term thrown in). In each class, the final was worth something close to 50% of my final grade. I had missed LOTS of classes (Lenny's Tap was next door, we had an early spring and there was much celebrating over our NIT Championship) but I knew many people who were more diligent about class attendance than me. At a reasonable hour (10pm?) when they were finished studying for the following day's final one kind person from each of my classes would give me his/her notes. I was fortunate to have only one test per day throughout the week, all at 8am. At 10pm Sunday night my odyssey began. Study all night, take test from 8-10 am, stop at the Lanche for a couple, home by noon and right to bed. Up at 8pm, eat, borrow more notes for following day's test, another all nighter, take test, drink, sleep, etc. Thanks to a spread out exam schedule and friends who went to class and took good notes I had my best semester ever. Ah, college.
All nighters were my specialty and my former roommates and buddies to this day give me crap. I would go down to the Walgreen's on the corner of 16th and Wisconsin, load up on Dr. Pepper and Spaghettios and power through all night cramming for finals, usually doing pretty well.
Attendance....maybe they got stricter when I was there because most classes took attendance.
Still remember the blizzard of '87 that cancelled finals for one day. That was epic. First time in MU history.
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Hmmmm... Lots of bragging here about how easy the MU degree was. Is that correct? I don't know except I have 24 CEU's from Marquette and remember that they did require attendance, and not much else.
....and the check to clear.
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I had friends who maybe went to class 10 times per semester. This was back n the days that profs/instructors rarely took attendance.
My deal was this: If you make your lecture or instruction interesting and mandatory for tests, I will attend. If you just lecture from the book, I don't need to go to class. And it was amazing how many profs did just that.
I didn't used to be proud of this, but I kind of am now:
I set a record that can only be tied, never be beaten (by a student who graduates in four years). I went out for beverages every night of every finals week every semester for eight semesters.
I do get an asterisk, though. One night my first semester senior year, I was sick as hell but I wanted to keep the streak going, so I went out, drank about half a beer and went home.
The rest of 'em were multiple-hour, multiple-beverage efforts, though, so I figure I was allowed that one time I was a slacker.
Not at MU, but rather a similar quality institute, but I have a record that can also never be beaten.
An entire semester, never attending class except for exam days. Classes strategically chosen that did not require attendance. Perfect 4.0 for the semester. Classes.
Multivariable calculus
Economics
Theatre appreciation
World History
Organic Chemistry
To this day though I wonder what I missed in class, because although not tested, a lot of topics not in the book were expounded upon in class.
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Not at MU, but rather a similar quality institute, but I have a record that can also never be beaten.
An entire semester, never attending class except for exam days. Classes strategically chosen that did not require attendance. Perfect 4.0 for the semester. Classes.
Organic Chemistry
Well, you went to lab. Right?
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Yep. So I had it relatively easy during finals week, especially by the time I was an upperclassman, because I had far more writing assignments than final exams. And I could do the writing in my sleep.
Gotcha. I had friends in Communications who would party all finals week because all they had to do was turn in a presentation etc. Not necessarily the same exams as the rest of us. One of them couldn't believe that the rest of us didn't love finals week as much.
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Hmmmm... Lots of bragging here about how easy the MU degree was. Is that correct? I don't know except I have 24 CEU's from Marquette and remember that they did require attendance, and not much else.
Who said it was easy? Shouldn't surprise you that guys like 82, Chicos and myself could fill a blue book with some fairly decent BS after an all nighter. We're still doing it decades later without the benefit of any study whatsoever. Ok, maybe it's not always DECENT BS, but we are still at it.
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Any y'all remove the center pages from those blue books to make 'em look like you actually "filled" the entire book?
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Any y'all remove the center pages from those blue books to make 'em look like you actually "filled" the entire book?
What's a Blue Book?
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I wouldn't think for a second to form opinions on someone playing the baritone - something I know virtually nothing about...as I've never played it. Same with piano players. Yes, I can recognize some play beautifully, but since I've never played either, I can't really comment on the nuances.
And for what it is worth, I played a ton with all the guys on the team back in my day in the offseason, along with some Milwaukee Bucks, coached at all of MU's basketball camps while Mike Deane was there, as I always balled with Mike Rice and the guys on the team - and they knew I wasn't a stiff - which is why they had me coaching at their camps. No, it doesn't make me a D-1 college ballplayer, but it does give one a little better understanding of the game than one who hasn't played it a ton.
That said it doesn't mean you or the others don't make good points at times, nor does it mean you don't add value here - you guys do. As you know I just refuse to believe Buzz did a good job last year, nor do I believe he truly was doing his best to win games.
So let me get this straight. In your opinion, this is the hierarchy of opinions on scoop:
The few former college basketball players on this site
Yourself (and anyone else who occasionally played pickup games with the basketball team back in the early 90s)
Everyone else
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So let me get this straight. In your opinion, this is the hierarchy of opinions on scoop:
The few former college basketball players on this site
Yourself (and anyone else who occasionally played pickup games with the basketball team back in the early 90s)
Everyone else
The few former college basketball players on this site
Those who played Strat-O-Matic Baseball in the McCormick Challenge
Yourself (and anyone else who occasionally played pickup games with the basketball team back in the early 90s)
Everyone else
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So let me get this straight. In your opinion, this is the hierarchy of opinions on scoop:
The few former college basketball players on this site
Yourself (and anyone else who occasionally played pickup games with the basketball team back in the early 90s)
Everyone else
I am delighted and will gladly accept the honor of being one of the elder masters here on this board. 8-)
(even if it was the 70's rather than the 90's)
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I am delighted and will gladly accept the honor of being one of the elder masters here on this board. 8-)
(even if it was the 70's rather than the 90's)
x
Your reference to the '70's made me think of an athletic type shirt that was popular at MU back in the '70's. It was dark blue with the class year in large uniform style gold numbers. They sold them at that independent bookstore next to Grebe's. Everyone had those damn things; hell, even I had one.
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This is why I can no longer take you seriously. You think that a guy with back to back to back S16,S16, E8 seasons should give a crap if you and Willie Warrior are "miffed" about the lineup he chooses to play? Really? One last time. He didn't play Derrick 30 minutes a game because he owed him or wanted to egotistically tell the world F you. He was trying to win games and from what he saw (and the numbers bear him out) Derrick was the best of a lot of substandard options available. He tried John D, Jamil and Todd at the point, all to no avail. The numbers prove JD wasn't ready, and as Henry has pointed out in the past, a 10 mpg guy likely gets even LESS efficient with more PT. Your "we couldn't have been much worse with Dawson" may be right from a won/loss standpoint, I suppose. Buzz could have thrown in the towel, sat Derrick and turned those heartbreaking OT losses down the stretch into blow out losses, but he was still trying to win games.
You accuse me of being anti Dawson and saying he'll never be good. That's an outright lie. I think he could BECOME a very good player. But NO WAY was he ready as a freshman.
Lenny, Lenny, you are letting your BuzzJock glasses color your vision. There are plenty of people other than Ners and I "miffed" at Buzz's rotations. Yeah, you can say that Buzz was trying to win games with Derrick, but maybe, just maybe, he was just a stubborn jerk who would not admit he was wrong. Your opinion on that is no more valid than anybody else's. And I have seen several other people speak to Buzz's stubbornness. One big question which people will not answer: Why was Buzz pointed to the door? Other than a few "He wasn't", there is more to the story which we probably never know. The guy was a jerk--evidenced by his bad mouthing the new BEast, in which he got his ass kicked, when he was supposed to win it.
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He wasn't "pointed to the door." I think people just got tired of him.
I once had a guy who worked for me who was a real high performer. But he was a challenge to manage. He wanted things done his way all of the time, didn't get along great with his coworkers, etc. But his work product was stellar. For a time I was worried that if we lost him, we would be in serious trouble.
Well after a couple of years of this, the demands and the drama just wore on me and the rest of the staff. I stopped trying to make him happy. I stopped listening to him complain. He ended up leaving and we are just fine. I should have done it earlier.
I think that is pretty much what happened with Buzz and Marquette.
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You guys are amazing. You all must have been smarter than me as I attended in the same era as many of you and actually went to class..... every time, every day.
As to today, attendance is taken by most professors and Marquette is far more academically rigorous. To earn solid grades, one needs to work quite hard. Those that don't truly struggle, regardless of major.
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He wasn't "pointed to the door." I think people just got tired of him.
I once had a guy who worked for me who was a real high performer. But he was a challenge to manage. He wanted things done his way all of the time, didn't get along great with his coworkers, etc. But his work product was stellar. For a time I was worried that if we lost him, we would be in serious trouble.
Well after a couple of years of this, the demands and the drama just wore on me and the rest of the staff. I stopped trying to make him happy. I stopped listening to him complain. He ended up leaving and we are just fine. I should have done it earlier.
I think that is pretty much what happened with Buzz and Marquette.
No, it's not. Bert left Marquette because of the inferior conference that is the Big East, its pathetic media deal, and an overall disgust with the utter lack of support from the Marquette leadership. How dare you suggest otherwise.
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I wouldn't think for a second to form opinions on someone playing the baritone - something I know virtually nothing about...as I've never played it. Same with piano players. Yes, I can recognize some play beautifully, but since I've never played either, I can't really comment on the nuances.
And for what it is worth, I played a ton with all the guys on the team back in my day in the offseason, along with some Milwaukee Bucks, coached at all of MU's basketball camps while Mike Deane was there, as I always balled with Mike Rice and the guys on the team - and they knew I wasn't a stiff - which is why they had me coaching at their camps. No, it doesn't make me a D-1 college ballplayer, but it does give one a little better understanding of the game than one who hasn't played it a ton.
That said it doesn't mean you or the others don't make good points at times, nor does it mean you don't add value here - you guys do. As you know I just refuse to believe Buzz did a good job last year, nor do I believe he truly was doing his best to win games.
I have never laughed so hard because of MUScoop, and there have been some truly great laughs as a result of some posts on here. Thank you, Ners. You are the best. If I ever run into you (I'd say GM of the Bucks would be a good starting point, NBA Comissioner shortly after, so I'll keep my eyes open), please allow me to now down to you and kiss your feet. Thank you.
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No, it's not. Bert left Marquette because of the inferior conference that is the Big East, its pathetic media deal, and an overall disgust with the utter lack of support from the Marquette leadership. How dare you suggest otherwise.
This. Marquette is basically no different than MATC at this point. Virginia Tech is on a meteoric rise. End of discussion.
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I have never laughed so hard because of MUScoop, and there have been some truly great laughs as a result of some posts on here. Thank you, Ners. You are the best. If I ever run into you (I'd say GM of the Bucks would be a good starting point, NBA Comissioner shortly after, so I'll keep my eyes open), please allow me to now down to you and kiss your feet. Thank you.
I was surprised this thread was still going strong, so I had to look at what the last posts have been, and wow, this thread really needs to get put down quickly, it's getting more than creepy.
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Any y'all remove the center pages from those blue books to make 'em look like you actually "filled" the entire book?
Haha! Awesome
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I was surprised this thread was still going strong, so I had to look at what the last posts have been, and wow, this thread really needs to get put down quickly, it's getting more than creepy.
How could we not discuss how awesome Ners is? I mean, he "balled" (haha, I remember when that was cool to say...my junior year in high school) with the MU players (because who hasn't if you've ever played pickup basketball at the Rec between the end of the basketball season and the end of the school year? But yeah, it's just Ners). And because he was hand selected to join the high level coaches that coach the MU camps (because they don't take anybody who is willing to help out. Oh wait, they do. The actual D1 coaches and the players do the actual coaching, while guys like Ners who beg to be a part of it get to babysit. Having worked at the Rec Center during my time at MU, I've seen Ners many, many times, wearing the way-to-baggy gym shorts, the shirt that is way too big because all that was left was XXLs by the time they got to pick theirs and having a role of keeping the line of 20 4th grade boys straight while walking from the Rec Center to get lunch).
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How could we not discuss how awesome Ners is? I mean, he "balled" (haha, I remember when that was cool to say...my junior year in high school) with the MU players (because who hasn't if you've ever played pickup basketball at the Rec between the end of the basketball season and the end of the school year? But yeah, it's just Ners). And because he was hand selected to join the high level coaches that coach the MU camps (because they don't take anybody who is willing to help out. Oh wait, they do. The actual D1 coaches and the players do the actual coaching, while guys like Ners who beg to be a part of it get to babysit. Having worked at the Rec Center during my time at MU, I've seen Ners many, many times, wearing the way-to-baggy gym shorts, the shirt that is way too big because all that was left was XXLs by the time they got to pick theirs and having a role of keeping the line of 20 4th grade boys straight while walking from the Rec Center to get lunch).
OK, get it now, your previous post was sarcasm.
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How could we not discuss how awesome Ners is? I mean, he "balled" (haha, I remember when that was cool to say...my junior year in high school) with the MU players (because who hasn't if you've ever played pickup basketball at the Rec between the end of the basketball season and the end of the school year? But yeah, it's just Ners). And because he was hand selected to join the high level coaches that coach the MU camps (because they don't take anybody who is willing to help out. Oh wait, they do. The actual D1 coaches and the players do the actual coaching, while guys like Ners who beg to be a part of it get to babysit. Having worked at the Rec Center during my time at MU, I've seen Ners many, many times, wearing the way-to-baggy gym shorts, the shirt that is way too big because all that was left was XXLs by the time they got to pick theirs and having a role of keeping the line of 20 4th grade boys straight while walking from the Rec Center to get lunch).
Wow - You sir are a creep. You simply make up lies. You don't know me..never saw me at the Rec...considering you are roughly 13 years younger than me...and regarding my role during the MU camps - well - just a flat out lie.
Pathetic. Just as your basketball analysis is. Really kind of sad that you can't let it go. Just because you were wrong all of last season on your takes on the team and what was going on - resorting to making up lies and such is really bottom of the barrel.
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Wow - You sir are a creep. You simply make up lies. You don't know me..never saw me at the Rec...considering you are roughly 13 years younger than me...and regarding my role during the MU camps - well - just a flat out lie.
Pathetic. Just as your basketball analysis is. Really kind of sad that you can't let it go. Just because you were wrong all of last season on your takes on the team and what was going on - resorting to making up lies and such is really bottom of the barrel.
Haha I didn't mean I actually saw you, I meant I saw the person in your role.
Speaking of bottom of the barrel. Look at the post you made that this came from. Absolutely freaking hilarious. And talking about my lack of good basketball analysis, all anybody needs to know about yours is that you actually think a D1 coach intentionally threw a season just to piss off a fan base. You can disagree with who he played (I tend to think the guy getting paid $2+ million to do that job and sees those players every day in practice may know more than a guy who once helped babysit 12 year olds at an MU camp, but that's just me), but to think a head coach would throw a season, even if you knew he was planning on leaving after the season, is absolutely hilarious. That's smart. I can just imagine the interview at VT. "So Buzz, it's been said you didn't like that alumni who have no clue how to coach basketball questioned who you were playing, so you just threw the season to piss them off. Any truth to this, or what explains your 17-15 record last year?" Bert: "Yes, they thought they knew more than me and wouldn't let me recruit anyone I wanted regardless of academics or character issues, so I just played the worst players I could." VT AD: "Perfect. You are just the guy we're looking for."
Intentionally losing games when you know you're on your way out is just the perfect plan. Because a coach who went 17-15 with no post season appearance is more attractive of a candidate than a guy who worked to win every game and maybe snuck into the NCAA. Makes sense. Had Texas had a bad season like expected I bet Buzz would've been ecstatic with VT if the UT job had opened up. The 17-15 record would've insured that happened.
But hey, we're all entitled to an opinion and you "balled" with some D1 guys.
OK, get it now, your previous post was sarcasm.
Just a little bit.
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And the last thing I'll say is you keep bringing up how "anybody who has played high level basketball knows you can't perform when all you get is 2-3 minute stints at a time." The fact of the matter is there are TV timeouts every 4 minutes and there are substitutions within those 4 minutes, there are a ton of stoppages for free throws with the new emphases, and each team gets 6 timeouts per game (12 total). In a 40 minute game you have 20 timeouts total. That averages every...you guessed it...2 minutes! And then you factor in maybe 20? Trips to the free throw line on average (40 total free throws between the 2 teams, and I'd say that's a low estimate) and that's another extended delay. The fact of the matter is you will never find 5 minute stints of uninterrupted basketball in college or the NBA. If you can't be productive in 2 minute stints you can't be productive in the game period.
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And the last thing I'll say is you keep bringing up how "anybody who has played high level basketball knows you can't perform when all you get is 2-3 minute stints at a time." The fact of the matter is there are TV timeouts every 4 minutes and there are substitutions within those 4 minutes, there are a ton of stoppages for free throws with the new emphases, and each team gets 6 timeouts per game (12 total). In a 40 minute game you have 20 timeouts total. That averages every...you guessed it...2 minutes! And then you factor in maybe 20? Trips to the free throw line on average (40 total free throws between the 2 teams, and I'd say that's a low estimate) and that's another extended delay. The fact of the matter is you will never find 5 minute stints of uninterrupted basketball in college or the NBA. If you can't be productive in 2 minute stints you can't be productive in the game period.
You don't have a clue Wades. I'll leave it at that. I have zero doubt you've never played the game at a level beyond 5th grade.
It's about getting into a flow..breaking sweat...getting the rhythm of the game. Todd Mayo is all the evidence I need to support what I'm saying - how he played the last 10 games of the season. He was capable of that all year - yet it was the FIRST time in his MU career Buzz let him play through mistakes, and let him get 8 - 10 segments of playing time..game after game after game.
And no sh$t there are TV timeouts every 4 minutes and stoppages for FT's - that doesn't make you lose your flow, sweat, rhythm of playing with teammates. But you obviously can't understand that because you haven't played the game at a decent level.
You can think Buzz coached well last year, but he was awful. The hyper manic substitutions you saw were ridiculous...and there is a reason you don't see other coaches do that. Does Bo Ryan EVER sub 4 guys at a time, roll out 10 different players in a 3 minute stretch? 17-15 missing the NIT is evidence enough, especially when your peers - guys who are head coaches at the other Big East schools - predict you to win your conference. Limping to a 9-9 finish with 2 wins over Top 50 teams all year is awful.
In the event you do play just a little, next time you hoop, yank yourself out every two minutes, and see what you accomplish.
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Ners, you avoided my question.
Is this how you view the value of opinions about gameplay on scoop?
Former college basketball players
Yourself (and anyone else who played high school ball and pick up games with the basketball team)
Everyone Else
I feel like you have been politely dancing around it. I just want to make sure I understand where I fall in the rank order system.
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And the last thing I'll say is you keep bringing up how "anybody who has played high level basketball knows you can't perform when all you get is 2-3 minute stints at a time." The fact of the matter is there are TV timeouts every 4 minutes and there are substitutions within those 4 minutes, there are a ton of stoppages for free throws with the new emphases, and each team gets 6 timeouts per game (12 total). In a 40 minute game you have 20 timeouts total. That averages every...you guessed it...2 minutes! And then you factor in maybe 20? Trips to the free throw line on average (40 total free throws between the 2 teams, and I'd say that's a low estimate) and that's another extended delay. The fact of the matter is you will never find 5 minute stints of uninterrupted basketball in college or the NBA. If you can't be productive in 2 minute stints you can't be productive in the game period.
Though I agree with most of what you said about ners. I've played in gyms with this kid's like him, they would suck my dick. The above statement is 100% incorrect. There is a huge difference of being subbed out after 2 minutes due to a mistake or rotation and taking a 30 second break on a freethrow line or timeout.
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In before the lock.
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Ners, you avoided my question.
Is this how you view the value of opinions about gameplay on scoop?
Former college basketball players
Yourself (and anyone else who played high school ball and pick up games with the basketball team)
Everyone Else
I feel like you have been politely dancing around it. I just want to make sure I understand where I fall in the rank order system.
I really don't think it matters if you played college basketball or even high school basketball for that matter. There are many examples of very successful college coaches, NBA coaches, and NBA GM's who have never played college basketball. Just because you didn't play, doesn't mean you can't have a very high understanding and knowledge of the game.
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Ners, you avoided my question.
Is this how you view the value of opinions about gameplay on scoop?
Former college basketball players
Yourself (and anyone else who played high school ball and pick up games with the basketball team)
Everyone Else
I feel like you have been politely dancing around it. I just want to make sure I understand where I fall in the rank order system.
Yes - that is how I view opinions generally speaking. It is usual evident who has played the game at the high school level or above, based on their take. As I said, doesn't mean those of you who haven't played the game don't make good points too. But, like I also said, I'd never critique a piano player, baritone player, or any other player of an instrument as to what they could do better, or what the conductor of the band could do better to make them perform better - as I have no real experience playing those instruments, or being a band member.
Yes, you see cases in basketball (more common in baseball) where the player personnel guys are not former players - yet why do you think most college and pro basketball teams have former players as head coaches? Same in baseball, hockey and football.
Would you really have a great deal of respect for my takes on how the MU band could improve? What the conductor has been doing right/wrong?
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Yes, you see cases in basketball (more common in baseball) where the player personnel guys are not former players - yet why do you think most college and pro basketball teams have former players as head coaches? Same in baseball, hockey and football.
1. Lower barrier to entry. (ie lots of connections)
2. Inherent interest in the profession
3. Basketball acumen
4. Understanding of the team dynamics
However I will say that there is a world of difference between being a former high school basketball player and understanding how to employ strategy at the collegiate level. Especially when those two experiences are separated by 20 years. Enough to make the experience basically worthless.
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Though I agree with most of what you said about ners. I've played in gyms with this kid's like him, they would suck my dick. The above statement is 100% incorrect. There is a huge difference of being subbed out after 2 minutes due to a mistake or rotation and taking a 30 second break on a freethrow line or timeout.
Odd you say this, as a review of your post history shows we are on the same page about a lot of topics. And as you know, Wades never saw me at the Rec, has no idea - was just a silly lie to try to discredit me. As for being a kid...I wish I was your age..23 or 24 would be great. Being 40, you lose a few steps. Although at 6'2" and 40 I can still dunk a basketball...doubt I'd be doing any of what you suggest if we were to play....even at this age. :D
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You guys are amazing. You all must have been smarter than me as I attended in the same era as many of you and actually went to class..... every time, every day.
As to today, attendance is taken by most professors and Marquette is far more academically rigorous. To earn solid grades, one needs to work quite hard. Those that don't truly struggle, regardless of major.
I have little doubt that were I to attend MU (or any other good school) today, I either would have to be more studious and accountable or I would fail miserably. I think I could have made the adjustment, but maybe not. I'll never know and the good thing is it doesn't matter now!
One of the things I liked most about being a Journalism major is that most of the classes I took within my major did not involve final exams. Of course, I did have to take a lot of required classes that all gave finals: 5 philosophies, 3 theologies, 2 yrs foreign language, etc. Somehow I survived those, mostly because I was very good at reading the books, outlining the important stuff and studying the outlines. While I got mostly A's in journalism stuff, I got C's or B's in the rest, and that was fine with me - and, more importantly, fine with my parents. I finished with a 2.8-something, and that was fine. It didn't stop my future employer from hiring me.
While some of my classmates were getting 3.8s or higher, I was working at the Tribune, the Journal magazine, the Milwaukee newspapers, AP, anybody that would let me write for them. When it came time to apply for jobs, I had real experience, not just good grades.
I'm guessing that real-world experience STILL gives a graduate a leg up on his/her competition, regardless of profession. I know I'd hire a talented, proven candidate with a 2.9 over a book-smart neophyte with a 3.9. But maybe that's just me.
One of my best friends had this schedule second semester freshman year: Wake up at 9 a.m.; go to classes from 10-4; study and homework from 4-6; dinner from 6-7; study and homework from 7-9 (rec center if no additional study had been necessary); smoke a $hitload of pot and drink like a fish from 9pm-2am; sleep from 2-9; lather, rinse, repeat. Got higher than a kite at least 5 nights a week. Graduated with a 4.0, went to grad school, ridiculously rich today.
It's the oldest cliche ever, but college definitely is what one puts into it.
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1. Lower barrier to entry. (ie lots of connections)
2. Inherent interest in the profession
3. Basketball acumen
4. Understanding of the team dynamics
However I will say that there is a world of difference between being a former high school basketball player and understanding how to employ strategy at the collegiate level. Especially when those two experiences are separated by 20 years. Enough to make the experience basically worthless.
I can agree with your points 1-4 above..yes....doesn't change the fact that it is the reality. Did you not notice how many of the MU players have said they are so glad the new coaching staff all has lots of playing experience at this level and beyond?
I also agree that there is a vast difference between 5A High school ball, or Division 1 in WI, and High Major ball...it's not even in the same area code. Yet, general basketball principles are in play at the high school level, that carry into the college level, not so much the pro level where you have a lot of isolation sets. College ball remains very much a team game.
At the end of the day, this whole crapstorm between me and a few of you others this past season was all about the coaching employed by Buzz. He was awful. ANYONE who has played the game at even the high school level could recognize that. You simply don't hyper manic sub people the way he did. Why I feel he was being stubborn..and essentially not doing what was in the best interest of the team to win: The only two guys he was consistent with, and gave consistent playing time to, where the two most limited (and criticized) guys on the team. It defies explanation how those two guys got more minutes than any other guys on the team.
And as I challenged you, find me 1 other guy in the last 20 years who has posted stats like Derrick - and Jake for that matter with 9 made 2 pt FGs for a 32 game season playing over 900 minutes. It was the most limited back court combination played perhaps in the history of high major ball. And, it didn't have to be that way.
I mean this starting lineup?? Derrick, Jake, Juan, Jamil, Otule?? Please. With Gardner, Mayo, Burton, JJJ, Taylor, Dawson all sitting on the bench??
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And as I challenged you, find me 1 other guy in the last 20 years who has posted stats like Derrick - and Jake for that matter with 9 made 2 pt FGs for a 32 game season playing over 900 minutes.
Wasn't a challenge to me, but since I take issue with people loosely throwing out numbers and stats when there is no reasonable basis to do so...
Look no further than conference-mate Creighton.
This season Ethan Wragge made 2 two-point field goals in 946 minutes.
Jump back to McDermott's freshman year.. senior Kaleb Korver.. 9 two-point field goals in 1,090 minutes. Korver averaged 4.3 ppg in 28 mpg. ORtg of 100 with a usage of 11%
Jake? 7.9 ppg in 30 mpg. 108 ORtg with usage of 13%.
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At the end of the day, this whole crapstorm between me and a few of you others this past season was all about the coaching employed by Buzz. He was awful. ANYONE who has played the game at even the high school level could recognize that. You simply don't hyper manic sub people the way he did. Why I feel he was being stubborn..and essentially not doing what was in the best interest of the team to win: The only two guys he was consistent with, and gave consistent playing time to, where the two most limited (and criticized) guys on the team. It defies explanation how those two guys got more minutes than any other guys on the team.
1. Buzz did the same things last year that he did previously and that made him successful. And the whole coaching staff with playing experience thing doesn't mean a lot to me, because prior to last season, I never heard that being expressed as a negative by anyone. In fact the whole story as to how he got into coaching to begin with was treated as one of his good stories. Now it's a negative? Monday morning quarterbacking.
2. It doesn't "defy explanation." The explanations have been made repeatedly. Just because you don't agree with the conclusions, doesn't mean he was subborn or coaching not to win. It just means that you didn't agree with the strategies he used. Nothing more. Nothing less.
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Wasn't a challenge to me, but since I take issue with people loosely throwing out numbers and stats when there is no reasonable basis to do so...
Look no further than conference-mate Creighton.
This season Ethan Wragge made 2 two-point field goals in 946 minutes.
Jump back to McDermott's freshman year.. senior Kaleb Korver.. 9 two-point field goals in 1,090 minutes. Korver averaged 4.3 ppg in 28 mpg. ORtg of 100 with a usage of 11%
Jake? 7.9 ppg in 30 mpg. 108 ORtg with usage of 13%.
Nice find JayBee - Well...the 3 point shooting greatly skews a players ORating...
Wragge? 10.4ppg in 27mpg. 132 ORtg with usage of 14.2% Shot 47% from 3 point land.
Jake was serviceable - yet not a 30 mpg player. Not when Mayo only got 23.
The bigger issue was the combination of Derrick and Jake for max minutes. Will you be finding me an example of a player who played more minutes than Derrick at the Guard position who made less than 1, 3pt shot on less than 7% shooting, combined with 43% FT shooting? Good luck.
The pairing was awful. One guy can't make a 3, to save his life, the other guy can't make a 2 to save his life, and those are your max minute guards.
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1. Buzz did the same things last year that he did previously and that made him successful. And the whole coaching staff with playing experience thing doesn't mean a lot to me, because prior to last season, I never heard that being expressed as a negative by anyone. In fact the whole story as to how he got into coaching to begin with was treated as one of his good stories. Now it's a negative? Monday morning quarterbacking.
2. It doesn't "defy explanation." The explanations have been made repeatedly. Just because you don't agree with the conclusions, doesn't mean he was subborn or coaching not to win. It just means that you didn't agree with the strategies he used. Nothing more. Nothing less.
1) Buzz did not coach the same last season as the previous years - he wasn't nearly as manic in his substitutions across 3 to 4 positions on the floor. Prior he did a little of the offense/defense thing with Otule and Gardner, but nothing like what we saw at the other positions last year. Plus, for the first time he had to resort to using color coded pieces of construction paper to communicate defense. Perhaps part of the problem with the team grasping defensive concepts was the constant yanking in and out - wait, who do I have? Who do you have? Etc. My Monday morning quarterbacking started in late November...as I could clearly see it wasn't going to work. You, on the other hand argued all year long, Buzz knows what he is doing, his teams get better, blah, blah, blah. And we both know you damn well didn't think at the beginning of the year that team would MISS THE NIT.
2) I'm still waiting for you to explain to me how you contend Mayo was late to practice MULTIPLE times, yet only suspended for arguably the biggest game of the year at WI? I also explained that Dawson's O-Rating in games he played more than 13 minutes - 6 games was 97.5 (better than Derrick's btw)...and in the 5 games he played less than 13 it was 78. Also said Pomroy doesn't assign an ORating for games where a player plays less than 10 minutes as it is statistically irrelevant.
Also, would you explain to me why a coach would start a lineup of Derrick, Jake, Juan, Jamil, and Otule - when he has Gardner, Mayo, Burton, JJJ, Dawson, Steve Taylor all on the bench??
Hmm...don't recall Buzz not starting his leading 2 of his 3 leading scorers in previous seasons.
Last question for you: Do you really believe Buzz turned in a good coaching performance last season? And if so, why? If not, why?
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Last question for you: Do you really believe Buzz turned in a good coaching performance last season? And if so, why? If not, why?
This is really the only part I am going to address because I have dealt with the rest already. I think Buzz's coaching job last year was not as good as previous years because the motivational technique of busting players balls didn't work, and he didn't seem to have a back up plan. In the past he had leaders for which that worked...the Amigos, Lazar, JFB, Jae and DJO, Vander and Junior. Mentally strong players who "got Buzz," and that those leaders lead by example. Last year's team needed a different approach. The guys who "got Buzz" weren't as good on the floor, while the new guys like JJJ and JD, seemed to shrink from the approach.
I think tactically he approached the season like he didn't most of the others.
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Nice find JayBee - Well...the 3 point shooting greatly skews a players ORating...
Wragge? 10.4ppg in 27mpg. 132 ORtg with usage of 14.2% Shot 47% from 3 point land.
Jake was serviceable - yet not a 30 mpg player. Not when Mayo only got 23.
The bigger issue was the combination of Derrick and Jake for max minutes. Will you be finding me an example of a player who played more minutes than Derrick at the Guard position who made less than 1, 3pt shot on less than 7% shooting, combined with 43% FT shooting? Good luck.
The pairing was awful. One guy can't make a 3, to save his life, the other guy can't make a 2 to save his life, and those are your max minute guards.
Lol...
Step 1 - throw out a bs claim (inferred) and challenge a guy to dispute it
Step 2 - bs claim easily shot down by a third party
Step 3 - come up with an entirely different challenge
"Good luck"
Come on, bud. Get real.
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#GetReal
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Yes - that is how I view opinions generally speaking. It is usual evident who has played the game at the high school level or above, based on their take. As I said, doesn't mean those of you who haven't played the game don't make good points too. But, like I also said, I'd never critique a piano player, baritone player, or any other player of an instrument as to what they could do better, or what the conductor of the band could do better to make them perform better - as I have no real experience playing those instruments, or being a band member.
Yes, you see cases in basketball (more common in baseball) where the player personnel guys are not former players - yet why do you think most college and pro basketball teams have former players as head coaches? Same in baseball, hockey and football.
Would you really have a great deal of respect for my takes on how the MU band could improve? What the conductor has been doing right/wrong?
Thank you for answering the question. I think your premise is reasonable. But you VASTLY overestimate the value of playing basketball at the high school level. Especially when that experience was over 20 years ago when the game has changed so much. I also think you VASTLY underestimate the value of studying the game as many on here have. You have fans who spend at least an hour or more a day reading about and studying college basketball. You also have posters like Chicos and Keefe who have had interactions and conversations with some of the greats in college basketball. You have others like JayBee and Freeport who spend lots of time following the college recruiting scene. You have numbers gurus like Henry Sugar. Then you have posters like myself and I believe other scoopers who work in college athletics and spend every day working with college basketball players.
To use your music example, a music critic who has spent years listening to and studying music but has never played an instrument has more credibility than a kid who played in a high school band and hasn't been playing in an organized band for the last 20 years.
I think it would go a long way to helping your credibility if you stopped viewing yourself as one of the only opinion's that matter and actually listened to and respected other scoopers' opinions.
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This is really the only part I am going to address because I have dealt with the rest already. I think Buzz's coaching job last year was not as good as previous years because the motivational technique of busting players balls didn't work, and he didn't seem to have a back up plan. In the past he had leaders for which that worked...the Amigos, Lazar, JFB, Jae and DJO, Vander and Junior. Mentally strong players who "got Buzz," and that those leaders lead by example. Last year's team needed a different approach. The guys who "got Buzz" weren't as good on the floor, while the new guys like JJJ and JD, seemed to shrink from the approach.
I think tactically he approached the season like he didn't most of the others.
I too agree that tactically he didn't approach last year like the others.
The whole "leadership" argument is a convenient excuse. Buzz is the leader above all else. He lost that whole team last year...and it wasn't because there wasn't a Vander, Lazar, JFB, etc on that team. As a coach if what you are coaching isn't working or connecting with your team...you course correct. Not all guys respond to coaching the same way. You have to be adaptable.
Perhaps as was pointed out...Buzz played "the toughest guys" in his opinion. Yet, the toughest guys also have to be your best basketball players too. Perhaps that was the case in previous seasons - think that case could be made. Yet last year...maybe not. Yet some here argued all career long that Jamil Wilson wasn't tough - yet he played, started, etc. - So that seems to defy explanation, no?
Buzz had a choice late in nonconference play when it was clear the team wasn't playing very well - continue forward with what wasn't working, or try the more talented underclassmen and take the growing pains. He chose to double down on seniority and what wasn't working, and that was an unbelievably bad decision.
I still am scratching my head as to what the F he was thinking sitting Burton for 6:30 of the last 7:00 of the must win game against Xavier in Big East tournament when Burton was practically unstoppable all game long. It was at that point that I truly wondered if he really was genuinely trying to win basketball games prior to that...as that coaching decision was beyond bizarre.
And, Buzz isn't dumb - He knew he had enough skins on the wall, and could land a job at many schools even if he turned in one bad season. His ego had gotten so big, I don't think he really cared, and also think he did to an extent want to give an F-You to the administration.
Considering Buzz basically "won" in the power struggle with Larry Williams, and that Pilarz was removed, and our old basketball friendly admin came in as their replacements and he still wasn't able to get along with them - all I need to know to see that the man had changed tremendously over the course of his time at MU.
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Lol...
Step 1 - throw out a bs claim (inferred) and challenge a guy to dispute it
Step 2 - bs claim easily shot down by a third party
Step 3 - come up with an entirely different challenge
"Good luck"
Come on, bud. Get real.
Sorry JayBee - since I get railed for harping on Derrick...I chose to reference Jake's stats in that initial point...I'd asked all off season long for someone to find an example even close to Derrick's production. It was never found. You did a great job on the Jake issue...yet using Wragge as a comparison is like comparing a Ferrari to a Chevy given their performance, no?
Curious, do you feel the pairing of Derrick and Jake had any kind of chance to be successful?
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I too agree that tactically he didn't approach last year like the others.
The whole "leadership" argument is a convenient excuse. Buzz is the leader above all else. He lost that whole team last year...and it wasn't because there wasn't a Vander, Lazar, JFB, etc on that team. As a coach if what you aren't coaching isn't working or connecting with your team...you course correct. Not all guys respond to coaching the same way. You have to be adaptable.
Perhaps as was pointed out...Buzz played "the toughest guys" in his opinion. Yet, the toughest guys also have to be your best basketball players too. Perhaps that was the case in previous seasons - think that case could be made. Yet last year...maybe not. Yet some here argued all career long that Jamil Wilson wasn't tough - yet he played, started, etc. - So that seems to defy explanation, no?
I mis-typed. I think Buzz tactically did much of the same stuff as previous years.
With regards to leadership, I think we are saying the same thing here. He should have changed his approach but didn't...or couldn't...or whatever. That to me was the crux of the problem.
With regards to Jamil, I never questioned his toughness or "fire in his belly" that many around here did. I questioned his ability to perform.
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Thank you for answering the question. I think your premise is reasonable. But you VASTLY overestimate the value of playing basketball at the high school level. Especially when that experience was over 20 years ago when the game has changed so much. I also think you VASTLY underestimate the value of studying the game as many on here have. You have fans who spend at least an hour or more a day reading about and studying college basketball. You also have posters like Chicos and Keefe who have had interactions and conversations with some of the greats in college basketball. You have others like JayBee and Freeport who spend lots of time following the college recruiting scene. You have numbers gurus like Henry Sugar. Then you have posters like myself and I believe other scoopers who work in college athletics and spend every day working with college basketball players.
To use your music example, a music critic who has spent years listening to and studying music but has never played an instrument has more credibility than a kid who played in a high school band and hasn't been playing in an organized band for the last 20 years.
I think it would go a long way to helping your credibility if you stopped viewing yourself as one of the only opinion's that matter and actually listened to and respected other scoopers' opinions.
What part of me saying: "As I said, doesn't mean those of you who haven't played the game don't make good points too," isn't respecting other Scooper opinions??
I don't view my opinion's as the only one that matters. I appreciate all points made here. I tend to disagree with 5 of you adamantly about last season and the coaching performance Buzz turned in. All the guys you reference bring good value to the board, as do you. Doesn't mean we are going to agree all the time. And as I've said before, you are convicted in your convictions about last season, as am I - and in the case of last season, I'm sorry, but I feel the end result vindicated my position all season long, as opposed to yours and the 4 other common posters who disagreed with me all season.
Last thing - stats are a slippery slope - as they can be sliced and diced so many different way - which happens here a lot, as people slice and dice them in a way to try to support their point. The reason you rarely have a stat head in a coaching position, is because they don't have a feel for the nuances of the game. Buzz at times got so wrapped up into stats, he over thought things and started to coach scientifically instead of artistically. I'd argue coaching is more of an art, than a science, and it is an art more easily understood by guys who have played their sport at a higher level...yes..higher than me and my high school level of course.
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I mis-typed. I think Buzz tactically did much of the same stuff as previous years.
With regards to leadership, I think we are saying the same thing here. He should have changed his approach but didn't...or couldn't...or whatever. That to me was the crux of the problem.
With regards to Jamil, I never questioned his toughness or "fire in his belly" that many around here did. I questioned his ability to perform.
I agree. We've seen Jamil similarly. Looks the part athletically, yet doesn't have great basketball athleticism. Plays very erect/little body lean. Not an explosive first step, and therefore limited off the bounce. He's a good defender, rebounder for his position, and unselfish type of guy.
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What part of me saying: "As I said, doesn't mean those of you who haven't played the game don't make good points too," isn't respecting other Scooper opinions??
I don't view my opinion's as the only one that matters. I appreciate all points made here. I tend to disagree with 5 of you adamantly about last season and the coaching performance Buzz turned in. All the guys you reference bring good value to the board, as do you. Doesn't mean we are going to agree all the time. And as I've said before, you are convicted in your convictions about last season, as am I - and in the case of last season, I'm sorry, but I feel the end result vindicated my position all season long, as opposed to yours and the 4 other common posters who disagreed with me all season.
Last thing - stats are a slippery slope - as they can be sliced and diced so many different way - which happens here a lot, as people slice and dice them in a way to try to support their point. The reason you rarely have a stat head in a coaching position, is because they don't have a feel for the nuances of the game. Buzz at times got so wrapped up into stats, he over thought things and started to coach scientifically instead of artistically. I'd argue coaching is more of an art, than a science, and it is an art more easily understood by guys who have played their sport at a higher level...yes..higher than me and my high school level of course.
I apologize. I misunderstood your post. The way I was reading a few of your last posts was "You occasionally make some good points but because I played basketball in high school, my opinion has more value than yours or anyone else's." It sounds like that isn't what you were trying to say, but that is what I think Sultan, Wades, Jay Bee, and myself were reacting to.
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I apologize. I misunderstood your post. The way I was reading a few of your last posts was "You occasionally make some good points but because I played basketball in high school, my opinion has more value than yours or anyone else's." It sounds like that isn't what you were trying to say, but that is what I think Sultan, Wades, Jay Bee, and myself were reacting to.
No worries TAMU - What makes this board the best of the bunch is there is a lot of exchange among all of us. Every poster brings value. But, disagreements are going to ensue, as opinions are like a$$holes - everyone has one!
I hate referencing my playing days and experience while at MU and beyond, and the only reason I do so is to give some context to what my points are, why I arrive at them, feel them, believe them. I do not think someone who hasn't played the game at even just the high school level can fully understand how coaching can impact performance - and I am confident in saying Buzz's coaching last year negatively affected virtually everyone's performance...other than Derrick and Jake - as they were the only two guys who got consistent minutes, long stretches of playing time, and rarely got yanked in and out. All of the substitutions just disrupt your rhythm as a player, and you gain no cohesion or efficiency when you are playing with so many different guys- and it creates confusion on the defensive end as to who has who, when so many rapid fire and hockey line type substitutions at times.
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No worries TAMU - What makes this board the best of the bunch is there is a lot of exchange among all of us. Every poster brings value. But, disagreements are going to ensue, as opinions are like pretty boys - everyone has one!
I hate referencing my playing days and experience while at MU and beyond, and the only reason I do so is to give some context to what my points are, why I arrive at them, feel them, believe them. I do not think someone who hasn't played the game at even just the high school level can fully understand how coaching can impact performance - and I am confident in saying Buzz's coaching last year negatively affected virtually everyone's performance...other than Derrick and Jake - as they were the only two guys who got consistent minutes, long stretches of playing time, and rarely got yanked in and out. All of the substitutions just disrupt your rhythm as a player, and you gain no cohesion or efficiency when you are playing with so many different guys- and it creates confusion on the defensive end as to who has who, when so many rapid fire and hockey line type substitutions at times.
This is the problem I have with your statements. If you hate referencing it, don't reference it. I played a lot of basketball throughout high-school and similar to you with college players, but not on the team in college (I reference this only because apparently that is of value to your analysis of individuals). But no one should use that at all in criteria to your knowledge of basketball.
That is like saying that you can only trust a person who served in WWII about military strategy during the war. There are people that have studied it their entire life that no everything about the topic. Meanwhile, there are people who served during WWII, that no absolutely nothing about strategy.
What I do is automatically assume that anyone posting on an MU basketball board is passionate about the sport and thus adequately informed. I then value all opinions equally…doesn't mean I agree with them, but assume they have equal value. Reason being is that we all observe the game in different ways. Disagreements often stem from different focuses on what's important.
These different ways of looking at the game are often the most informative to me (meaning those that disagree have often more value), because I can try to go back and watch games trying to focus from their viewpoint to understand things I may miss. Only when people are completely ridiculous or make things up do they lose any value.
So no need to bring up past accomplishments unless you want to reminisce (which is fine…we all do it), as they should have no bearing on the intrinsic value of your words.
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This is the problem I have with your statements. If you hate referencing it, don't reference it. I played a lot of basketball throughout high-school and similar to you with college players, but not on the team in college (I reference this only because apparently that is of value to your analysis of individuals). But no one should use that at all in criteria to your knowledge of basketball.
That is like saying that you can only trust a person who served in WWII about military strategy during the war. There are people that have studied it their entire life that no everything about the topic. Meanwhile, there are people who served during WWII, that no absolutely nothing about strategy.
What I do is automatically assume that anyone posting on an MU basketball board is passionate about the sport and thus adequately informed. I then value all opinions equally…doesn't mean I agree with them, but assume they have equal value. Reason being is that we all observe the game in different ways. Disagreements often stem from different focuses on what's important.
These different ways of looking at the game are often the most informative to me (meaning those that disagree have often more value), because I can try to go back and watch games trying to focus from their viewpoint to understand things I may miss. Only when people are completely ridiculous or make things up do they lose any value.
So no need to bring up past accomplishments unless you want to reminisce (which is fine…we all do it), as they should have no bearing on the intrinsic value of your words.
This is a reasonable analysis. Yet, I disagree that playing experience or for that matter combat experience, doesn't give one a front line (and better perspective) than the guy who hasn't played, been in combat - as compared to the academic who may have studied a topic in great detail. Experience matters in virtually every field.
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Yes - that is how I view opinions generally speaking. It is usual evident who has played the game at the high school level or above, based on their take. As I said, doesn't mean those of you who haven't played the game don't make good points too. But, like I also said, I'd never critique a piano player, baritone player, or any other player of an instrument as to what they could do better, or what the conductor of the band could do better to make them perform better - as I have no real experience playing those instruments, or being a band member.
Yes, you see cases in basketball (more common in baseball) where the player personnel guys are not former players - yet why do you think most college and pro basketball teams have former players as head coaches? Same in baseball, hockey and football.
Would you really have a great deal of respect for my takes on how the MU band could improve? What the conductor has been doing right/wrong?
Michael Jordan stinks as head of a basketball organization. How do you account for that?
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Michael Jordan stinks as head of a basketball organization. How do you account for that?
Perhaps he should try coaching instead of front office work? Lot more common to have a non-player in the front office/scouting department, than in the role of a coach.
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Just think what might of been. How many Buzz bashers would there be right now if Vander had not gone pro, Duane had not gotten injured and McKay had not jumped ship?
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Sorry JayBee - since I get railed for harping on Derrick...I chose to reference Jake's stats in that initial point...I'd asked all off season long for someone to find an example even close to Derrick's production. It was never found. You did a great job on the Jake issue...yet using Wragge as a comparison is like comparing a Ferrari to a Chevy given their performance, no?
Curious, do you feel the pairing of Derrick and Jake had any kind of chance to be successful?
You challenged a guy to find a particular player with certain criteria. I did that. Now qualifying it, "oh, but Wragge is different" is crap - should have qualified it from the beginning. That said, I knew that is EXACTLY what you'd do and therefore I brought up another recent Bluejay in Korver, further pointing out his minutes, ORtg and usage. So you complaining about the Wragge example is goofy from a couple of perspectives.
Derrick & Jake - yes, a chance to be successful with certain other guys on the court, which didn't happen. Again, my jumping into this disgraceful "topic" was specifically on your statistical "claim", that's all.
Buzz's personnel decisions were completely flawed and that was clear before the conference season even began. It was bizarre. He had similar tendencies in past years, but in 2013-14 the specific groupings were worse than ever before and nothing short of strange *if* he had an interest in winning basketball games.
This December article tried to be kind about it.. "Marquette's Shots Aren't Adding Up (http://latenighthoops.com/marquettes-shots-arent-adding/#.U97JDfldWz4)", but the point was the starting group was flippin dumb. Nonetheless, things could have been remedied to a degree while still keeping Derrick and Jake together, but most certainly with Derrick still as starting point guard.
So, we're probably on the same page in large part.
BUT.. I will say this: I would not be surprised to see Derrick put together a solid senior year campaign and have some Scoopers change their tone a bit.
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Odd you say this, as a review of your post history shows we are on the same page about a lot of topics. And as you know, Wades never saw me at the Rec, has no idea - was just a silly lie to try to discredit me. As for being a kid...I wish I was your age..23 or 24 would be great. Being 40, you lose a few steps. Although at 6'2" and 40 I can still dunk a basketball...doubt I'd be doing any of what you suggest if we were to play....even at this age. :D
While we may agree on alot of our topics about MU's basketball, I was talking about the way in which you were acting superior in this thread due to you playing basketball and calling out people for playing in the band.
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Just think what might of been. How many Buzz bashers would there be right now if Vander had not gone pro, Duane had not gotten injured and McKay had not jumped ship?
Vander and McKay both decided that they no longer wanted to play for Buzz/MU - so in my view, that's on Buzz. Vander at least put in three years and felt his stock was high enough to reach for his dream - albeit against the counsel and desire of Buzz. McKay though? Totally different story. He wasn't buying what Buzz was selling as coach.
Regarding Duane - considering Burton was a 1st Team All Big East Freshman Team selection, yet could only get 12 minutes a game, or 7 minutes less than the next low minute getter on that All Freshman team...I highly doubt Buzz would have given Duane 25 minutes last season. Especially, given that it was fairly well known Duane was struggling in practice prior to the injury.
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acting superior in this thread due to you playing basketball and calling out people for playing in the band.
Well, yea. I think Darwin wrote about this, actually.
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I'll just put this out there...I never played basketball in any organized level and really don't know crap. But I am a passionate Marquette fan, and that should count for something.
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This thread is getting locked in the next 24 hours.... #donedeal
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This thread is getting locked in the next 24 hours.... #donedeal
I don't know whether or not to trust this opinion -- please tell us if you played basketball in high school so I can better evaluate.
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Vander and McKay both decided that they no longer wanted to play for Buzz/MU - so in my view, that's on Buzz. Vander at least put in three years and felt his stock was high enough to reach for his dream - albeit against the counsel and desire of Buzz.
You are blaming Buzz for Vander going pro?
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You are blaming Buzz for Vander going pro?
Bilsu was playing the hypothetical game of what could have been. It is irrelevant because it wasn't the reality. Blaming Buzz? I wouldn't say blaming Buzz, but Buzz had a say and a role in Vander's decision - did not want him/think it was wise to turn pro - and apparently their relationship wasn't strong enough to where Vander took Buzz's advice to stay and play another year at MU.
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Bilsu was playing the hypothetical game of what could have been. It is irrelevant because it wasn't the reality. Blaming Buzz? I wouldn't say blaming Buzz, but Buzz had a say and a role in Vander's decision - did not want him/think it was wise to turn pro - and apparently their relationship wasn't strong enough to where Vander took Buzz's advice to stay and play another year at MU.
You aren't blaming Buzz? You said this. "Vander and McKay both decided that they no longer wanted to play for Buzz/MU - so in my view, that's on Buzz."
To me...it sounds like you are blaming Buzz because Vander didn't listen to him. Very odd.
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You challenged a guy to find a particular player with certain criteria. I did that. Now qualifying it, "oh, but Wragge is different" is crap - should have qualified it from the beginning. That said, I knew that is EXACTLY what you'd do and therefore I brought up another recent Bluejay in Korver, further pointing out his minutes, ORtg and usage. So you complaining about the Wragge example is goofy from a couple of perspectives.
Derrick & Jake - yes, a chance to be successful with certain other guys on the court, which didn't happen. Again, my jumping into this disgraceful "topic" was specifically on your statistical "claim", that's all.
Buzz's personnel decisions were completely flawed and that was clear before the conference season even began. It was bizarre. He had similar tendencies in past years, but in 2013-14 the specific groupings were worse than ever before and nothing short of strange *if* he had an interest in winning basketball games.
This December article tried to be kind about it.. "Marquette's Shots Aren't Adding Up (http://latenighthoops.com/marquettes-shots-arent-adding/#.U97JDfldWz4)", but the point was the starting group was flippin dumb. Nonetheless, things could have been remedied to a degree while still keeping Derrick and Jake together, but most certainly with Derrick still as starting point guard.
So, we're probably on the same page in large part.
BUT.. I will say this: I would not be surprised to see Derrick put together a solid senior year campaign and have some Scoopers change their tone a bit.
Interesting JayBee. O Rating and Usage are interesting metrics to say the least - considering Wragge had an O-Rating higher than Doug McDermott last year, it shows how quirky the metric is. Would anyone argue Wragge was a better player than Doug McDermott?? Absolutely not.
Regarding Kaleb Korver in comparison to Derrick - that's quite a stretch - Korver looks a lot more like Jake Thomas, than does Jake look like Ethan Wragge. Korver shot 38% on 3's in the season you reference. Pretty sure that would require he need to be guarded everywhere on the floor. That's the problem when you go all stat head - these ratings are assigned to the individual - but they cannot measure how such a huge deficit - such as not needing to be guarded everywhere on the floor negatively impact the whole team. Other than of course looking at our team Offensive Efficiency Rating last season and seeing it was far and away the worst under Buzz in his 6 years...Our team O Efficiency Ratings under Buzz:
2009 - 12
2010 - 22
2011 - 21
2012 - 52
2013 - 25
2014 - 96
So basically in Buzz's first 5 years our average Offensive Efficiency Rating was 26.4. Then in 2014 it falls all the way to 96th in the country?? Did Buzz somehow forget to coach offense last year? As you said, the pairings and substitutions were awful..and it is really hard to fathom that Buzz didn't know it as well.
Here's Derrick, Jake and Korver compared:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=jake-thomas&i=1&p1=kaleb-korver&p2=derrick-wilson
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You aren't blaming Buzz? You said this. "Vander and McKay both decided that they no longer wanted to play for Buzz/MU - so in my view, that's on Buzz."
To me...it sounds like you are blaming Buzz because Vander didn't listen to him. Very odd.
I gave my explanation. I don't care if you find it odd. It wasn't in Vander's best interest to turn pro after his junior season, and Buzz is still his coach, and at that time also has a recruiting job to sell. Vander didn't buy it. And, it hasn't worked out very well for him. Buzz failed to re-recruit Vander back to the program - a guy Buzz also bent over backward for during his time at MU...similar to Mayo.
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Interesting JayBee. O Rating and Usage are interesting metrics to say the least - considering Wragge had an O-Rating higher than Doug McDermott last year, it shows how quirky the metric is. Would anyone argue Wragge was a better player than Doug McDermott?? Absolutely not.
The metric isn't quirky if you understand what it is measuring. Basically it measures how often a player does something positive offensively based on the number of possessions in which they are used.
Wragge was very efficient, but he was only used on just over a third of the possessions that McDermott was used. If he was used more, he would become less efficient and his OR would decrease.
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I gave my explanation. I don't care if you find it odd. It wasn't in Vander's best interest to turn pro after his junior season, and Buzz is still his coach, and at that time also has a recruiting job to sell. Vander didn't buy it. And, it hasn't worked out very well for him. Buzz failed to re-recruit Vander back to the program - a guy Buzz also bent over backward for during his time at MU...similar to Mayo.
So if you tell your kid "don't do that...it will hurt." And they do exactly what you told them not to do, and they got hurt, would you blame yourself and not your kid?
I think you are going out of your way to blame Buzz for something he shouldn't be blamed for.
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Bilsu was playing the hypothetical game of what could have been. It is irrelevant because it wasn't the reality. Blaming Buzz? I wouldn't say blaming Buzz, but Buzz had a say and a role in Vander's decision - did not want him/think it was wise to turn pro - and apparently their relationship wasn't strong enough to where Vander took Buzz's advice to stay and play another year at MU.
Yes, I was playing the hypothetical game and it was not really about Buzz. It was about the posters on this board. Buzz would of technically been the same person either way. However. last year's team with Blue, McKay and a healthly Duane (minus Jake Thomas and maybe Juan Anderson) would of had a very good chance of winning the Big East and making the sweet 16 or elite 8. The point I was making was how many posters who are now attacking Buzz's character, would still be attacking him if the team would of won the Big East and had his typical run in the NCAA tournament. Especially, if he was still MU's coach. Remember before the season started most posters here were more worried about the Texas job opening up than what kind of season we were going to have.
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2009 - 12
2010 - 22
2011 - 21
2012 - 52
2013 - 25
2014 - 96
I find these offensive rating numbers to be very intereting. Not that last years were so poor. The fact that 2012 with DJO and Crowder averaging 18 points a game ranked significally
worse than the 2011 and 2013 teams. Of course when you have two players averaging that many points the team depends to be unbalanced, but if you had asked me I would of told you 2012 was a better team than 2013 even though the 2013 team made the elite 8.
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Yes, I was playing the hypothetical game and it was not really about Buzz. It was about the posters on this board. Buzz would of technically been the same person either way. However. last year's team with Blue, McKay and a healthly Duane (minus Jake Thomas and maybe Juan Anderson) would of had a very good chance of winning the Big East and making the sweet 16 or elite 8. The point I was making was how many posters who are now attacking Buzz's character, would still be attacking him if the team would of won the Big East and had his typical run in the NCAA tournament. Especially, if he was still MU's coach. Remember before the season started most posters here were more worried about the Texas job opening up than what kind of season we were going to have.
It's a sad but true fact, winning cures everything
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It's a sad but true fact, winning cures everything
Nah Willie would still have his anti Buzz tirades
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It's a sad but true fact, winning cures everything
I can't believe I'm about to type these next few words, but in Ners and Willies defense......if the team would have gone to the Elite Eight last year on Bilsu's premise that would change that something was rotten in Denmark. I think the background issues that some of us either by willful ignorance or lack of access to the program would have been satisfied by everything but the issues still would have been there.
Winning would have made the whole thing harder for the administration to explain but knowing what I know now....I think they would have made the same moves anyway.
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2009 - 12
2010 - 22
2011 - 21
2012 - 52
2013 - 25
2014 - 96
I find these offensive rating numbers to be very intereting. Not that last years were so poor. The fact that 2012 with DJO and Crowder averaging 18 points a game ranked significally
worse than the 2011 and 2013 teams. Of course when you have two players averaging that many points the team depends to be unbalanced, but if you had asked me I would of told you 2012 was a better team than 2013 even though the 2013 team made the elite 8.
These numbers have to be taken into context. Last year's offenses, if I remember correctly, were more offensively efficient, with new foul rules. Here are the raw numbers:
2009- 115.7
2010- 112.0
2011- 113.0
2012- 108.6
2013- 111.2
2014- 108.6
So the same rating 2 years later, results in a 44 point drop in rank. The 2012 team actually didn't shoot well. Outside of DJO, Jae and Davante they weren't very skilled offensively.
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The metric isn't quirky if you understand what it is measuring. Basically it measures how often a player does something positive offensively based on the number of possessions in which they are used.
Wragge was very efficient, but he was only used on just over a third of the possessions that McDermott was used. If he was used more, he would become less efficient and his OR would decrease.
I believe we see this the same way. But let's clarify: Usage is simply defined as: assigns credit or blame to a player when his actions end a possession, either by making a shot, missing a shot that isn’t rebounded by the offense, or committing a turnover.
Usage is valuable as a measure, because it essentially defines who a team's go to guy is, as you want your best player(s) taking the most shots/concluding possessions - and the best players typically are guys who can get their shot off anytime they want.
Nonetheless, when you have an O-Rating of 132.4, you are performing at a much higher efficiency and productivity than a guy with a 108 rating (the difference between Wragge and Jake and Wragge was used slightly more 14.8 to Jake's 13.1)
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So if you tell your kid "don't do that...it will hurt." And they do exactly what you told them not to do, and they got hurt, would you blame yourself and not your kid?
I think you are going out of your way to blame Buzz for something he shouldn't be blamed for.
Fair enough. I see your point.
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OK, let me leave this subject with this thought:
We had one of the best pairs of incoming guards in Blue and Mayo that Marquette has seen in years. We were up there, possibly, with Diener and Wade, Walton and Lee or Meminger and Washington. They were talented, highly recruited and we got them.
Throughout my time on this board, I've argued that the Hillbilly would be measured in a large way by what he did with these two highly sought after recruits. You can argue that Vander Blue had a break-out junior year but by-and-large both players had very disappointing careers at Marquette. Neither got a degree and both left under very cloudy circumstances.
That neither guard had confidence in the Hillbilly, as another poster pointed out, is incredibly evident. Todd Mayo's inability to be a team leader, play shut down defense and start for us is a huge indictment of the Hillbilly. To have that much talent with that little success suggests something wasn't right at the Al.
I do blame the Hillbilly for this. Either we were not recruiting the "right" kids or somehow the Hillbilly wasn't reaching them and getting what he should have been getting from them.
If I'm Wojo with Mayo at this point, I'm candid with him and would let him know that my focus is own my future and that of the team. It aint Mayo at this point in his career. I'm convinced Todd left because he knew he was going to be a role player and nothing more next year.
It's too bad.
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OK, let me leave this subject with this thought:
We had one of the best pairs of incoming guards in Blue and Mayo that Marquette has seen in years. We were up there, possibly, with Diener and Wade, Walton and Lee or Meminger and Washington. They were talented, highly recruited and we got them.
Throughout my time on this board, I've argued that the Hillbilly would be measured in a large way by what he did with these two highly sought after recruits. You can argue that Vander Blue had a break-out junior year but by-and-large both players had very disappointing careers at Marquette. Neither got a degree and both left under very cloudy circumstances.
Todd Mayo wasn't "highly recruited" in the sense that Blue was. He was an unranked, three-star guard. When he chose MU he had offers from Providence and Central Florida, with a late offer from West Virginia.
Also I don't view Vander's MU career as a "disappointment" other than it ended a year earlier than it should have. Furthermore, he didn't leave under "very cloudy circumstances." He left because he thought he could make it in the NBA.
Others may view his career as a disappointment because of their outsized expectations...but that's their problem.
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OK, let me leave this subject with this thought:
We had one of the best pairs of incoming guards in Blue and Mayo that Marquette has seen in years. We were up there, possibly, with Diener and Wade, Walton and Lee or Meminger and Washington. They were talented, highly recruited and we got them.
Throughout my time on this board, I've argued that the Hillbilly would be measured in a large way by what he did with these two highly sought after recruits. You can argue that Vander Blue had a break-out junior year but by-and-large both players had very disappointing careers at Marquette. Neither got a degree and both left under very cloudy circumstances.
That neither guard had confidence in the Hillbilly, as another poster pointed out, is incredibly evident. Todd Mayo's inability to be a team leader, play shut down defense and start for us is a huge indictment of the Hillbilly. To have that much talent with that little success suggests something wasn't right at the Al.
I do blame the Hillbilly for this. Either we were not recruiting the "right" kids or somehow the Hillbilly wasn't reaching them and getting what he should have been getting from them.
If I'm Wojo with Mayo at this point, I'm candid with him and would let him know that my focus is own my future and that of the team. It aint Mayo at this point in his career. I'm convinced Todd left because he knew he was going to be a role player and nothing more next year.
It's too bad.
The most talented guards in years... if you ignore the James/McNeal/Matthews trio that graduated only a couple years before those two stepped on campus... and DJO was a better college guard than either Mayo or Blue. I'm not a Mayo or Blue (or Buzz) hater, but that statement was blatantly false.
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would you blame yourself and not your kid?
Most American parents never find fault with their precious spawn...
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The most talented guards in years... if you ignore the James/McNeal/Matthews trio that graduated only a couple years before those two stepped on campus... and DJO was a better college guard than either Mayo or Blue. I'm not a Mayo or Blue (or Buzz) hater, but that statement was blatantly false.
Dead on jajuannaman. I watched Meminger, Butch, DJ, Jerel, Wesley and Diener play as freshmen. Some way better than Blue and Mayo as frosh (Dean, Butch, DJ), some a little better (Jerel, Wesley and Travis). Wade was light years better than all of them (dominated Wardle in practice) but we didn't get to see him officially until sophomore year. In addition, Mayo was a couple of years older than your average freshman when he arrived so big time development was less likely.
This is an example of bad history (Washington and Meminger didn't play together) mixed with poor analysis. Typical here since Buzz left - why deal in facts when making stuff up is so easy. Throw the requisite "hillbilly" or "lonesome cowboy" reference into the mix of BS, rinse, repeat.
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OK, let me leave this subject with this thought:
We had one of the best pairs of incoming guards in Blue and Mayo that Marquette has seen in years. We were up there, possibly, with Diener and Wade, Walton and Lee or Meminger and Washington. They were talented, highly recruited and we got them.
Even considering that you qualified this with "up there, POSSIBLY" - this is crazy! There is no possible way that Blue and Mayo rank anywhere near the pairs you mentioned (even though Meminger and Washington were never a pair). I suppose POSSIBLY if you just look at potential and not actual performance, they might make the top 10, maybe.
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Almost nothing in there that is accurate.
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OK guys, I goofed on Meminger and Washington. Old age does that sometimes. And I should have included the Amigos. But I still think coming in Blue and Mayo had the potential to be a set of really great guards who could lead us very, very well. The talent appeared to be there coming in.
Look, as to Blue leaving early, he was a bust at Marquette, like it or not. He had two really weak years compared to his talent his freshman and sophomore years. His junior year was good but he left early apparently despite a strong urging not to by the Hillbilly. The fact that Blue did not trust the Hillbilly's judgment when he made his decision on going pro speaks volumes. Even though the Hillbilly was right about Blue!
If your general comparison is the Dukiet years or even the Deane years, I'm wrong -- Blue was good. But over our history, Blue was a disappointment.
For the most part, Mayo could not even get off the bench. Given what I thought his potential might be, he wasn't even close to what he could have been. I had kinda hoped that after Blue left, Mayo could have stepped up. I was wrong there, for sure!
Finally, to re-emphasize, I do blame the Hillbilly for not developing either of these guys the way I saw he could have. Maybe he recruited guys he should not have recruited or perhaps I overestimated their ability as a fan. But either way, neither of these guys developed as quickly or as thoroughly as they should have.
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OK guys, I goofed on Meminger and Washington. Old age does that sometimes. And I should have included the Amigos. But I still think coming in Blue and Mayo had the potential to be a set of really great guards who could lead us very, very well. The talent appeared to be there coming in.
Look, as to Blue leaving early, he was a bust at Marquette, like it or not. He had two really weak years compared to his talent his freshman and sophomore years. His junior year was good but he left early apparently despite a strong urging not to by the Hillbilly. The fact that Blue did not trust the Hillbilly's judgment when he made his decision on going pro speaks volumes. Even though the Hillbilly was right about Blue!
If your general comparison is the Dukiet years or even the Deane years, I'm wrong -- Blue was good. But over our history, Blue was a disappointment.
For the most part, Mayo could not even get off the bench. Given what I thought his potential might be, he wasn't even close to what he could have been. I had kinda hoped that after Blue left, Mayo could have stepped up. I was wrong there, for sure!
Finally, to re-emphasize, I do blame the Hillbilly for not developing either of these guys the way I saw he could have. Maybe he recruited guys he should not have recruited or perhaps I overestimated their ability as a fan. But either way, neither of these guys developed as quickly or as thoroughly as they should have.
I disagree with the entire post.
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Look, as to Blue leaving early, he was a bust at Marquette, like it or not.
The best player on our second most successful team (Big East title, Elite 8) in the last 38 years was a bust? Really? You're embarrassing yourself.
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The best player on our second most successful team (Big East title, Elite 8) in the last 38 years was a bust? Really? You're embarrassing yourself.
He was very disappointing his first two years, but was, as Lenny said, the best player on an Elite 8 team his junior year, including making huge baskets at crunch time in the Big East regular season clincher and our opening round NCAA game. He saw the second weekend of the NCAAs all three years at MU. You can be disappointed in his overall career and you may have a point, but calling him a bust is ridiculous.
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For the most part, Mayo could not even get off the bench. Given what I thought his potential might be, he wasn't even close to what he could have been. I had kinda hoped that after Blue left, Mayo could have stepped up. I was wrong there, for sure!
Revisionist history. Todd played more than half the time (21 mpg) as a freshman and was ineligible or suspended much of his sophomore year. After an ankle injury and another suspension limited his time early in his junior year he played big minutes down the stretch last year.
Regarding his "potential", don't forget he was a very old freshman (turned 21 that year).
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The best player on our second most successful team (Big East title, Elite 8) in the last 38 years was a bust? Really? You're embarrassing yourself.
Haha yep, anyone still clinging to the "Blue as a bust" party line at this point makes me cringe. Even ErickJD08 gave up on beating that drum after Blue's junior year.
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Look, as to Blue leaving early, he was a bust at Marquette, like it or not. He had two really weak years compared to his talent his freshman and sophomore years. His junior year was good but he left early apparently despite a strong urging not to by the Hillbilly. The fact that Blue did not trust the Hillbilly's judgment when he made his decision on going pro speaks volumes. Even though the Hillbilly was right about Blue!
Vander Blue was not a bust at Marquette. Your expectations way exceeded his abilities. Don't worry, you weren't alone in making that mistake.
Blue was RSCI #48 in the country in 2010. Here is a list of the ten ranked higher than him....and the ten ranked behind:
38. Dwight Powell (Forward, Stanford...slightly better stats...2nd round pick this year)
39. Tyler Lamb (Guard, UCLA...started well, transferred to Long Beach midway though junior year where he had 21 ppg)
40. Jordan McRae (Guard, Tennessee...didn't play much as freshman but became 18 ppg scorer..2nd round pick)
41. Phil Pressey (Guard, Missouri....more of a PG...declared for 2013 draft and went undrafted)
42. Nate Lubik (Georgetown...decent role player)
43. Okaro White (Florida State...decent player with stats just under Vander's)
44. Dominique Ferguson (Two years at FIU....playing in England after declaring for 2012 draft)
45. Luke Cothron (Committed to Auburn, transferred all over the place...no idea what he is doing now)
46. Jayvaughn Pinkston (Villanova. Suspended his freshman year. Solid player for Nova)
47. KT Harrell (Started at UVA, transferred to Auburn where he had 18 ppg year last year. One year left.)
48. Vander Blue (Marquette)
49. Travis McKie (Started every game in four years at Wake. Decent stats on a terrible team)
50. Stacey Poole (One year at Kentucky, transferred to Georgia Tech. Not much to show for it.)
51. JT Terrell (One year at Wake, transferred to USC. 9 ppg scorer last year)
52. Casey Prather (Florida. Good player with nearly 20 ppg his senior year)
53. Keala King (Two years at Arizona State. Transferred to Long Beach State. 10 ppg last year)
54. Anthony Brown (Stanford. Solid role player)
55. Mychal Parker (Two poor years at Maryland. Ended career in NAIA.)
56. Lorenzo Brown (NC State. Declared for 2013 draft, went undrafted, and spent most of year in D-League)
57. Gary Franklin (Baylor. Role player.)
58. James Johnson (Started at Virginia. Transferred to SDSU. Bit player.)
I'm not going to debate who is better than Blue on this list, and who is worse. But there is a couple of things that are clear. There is not a single super-star player on here. There isn't even a likely first round pick worthy player. (Maybe Pinkston with a good year). There are a couple 2nd round picks. Some good D-League players. Pretty much what Vander is.
And there are some busts here (Ferguson, Cothron, Parker). Vander certainly isn't one of them.
So again, calling Vander a bust is completely false.
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All these posts seem to indicate that Blue and Mayo were in the same recruiting class, which is not true. Smith and Blue were in the same class. Mayo was a year later.
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I disagree with the entire post.
You are entitled!
I don't downplay his last year with us. He had a couple of great games, including some when the money was on the line. But my perception is on his whole body of work and the fact that he was a flash in the pan.
Maybe I did expect too much out of him. I'm sure I did with Mayo. They are college kids, after all, and I sometimes forget that. I think we all do from time to time. But for some reason, other than an all-too-brief shining moment, expectations and reality did not match.
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38. Dwight Powell (Forward, Stanford...slightly better stats...2nd round pick this year)
39. Tyler Lamb (Guard, UCLA...started well, transferred to Long Beach midway though junior year where he had 21 ppg)
40. Jordan McRae (Guard, Tennessee...didn't play much as freshman but became 18 ppg scorer..2nd round pick)
41. Phil Pressey (Guard, Missouri....more of a PG...declared for 2013 draft and went undrafted)
42. Nate Lubik (Georgetown...decent role player)
43. Okaro White (Florida State...decent player with stats just under Vander's)
44. Dominique Ferguson (Two years at FIU....playing in England after declaring for 2012 draft)
45. Luke Cothron (Committed to Auburn, transferred all over the place...no idea what he is doing now)
46. Jayvaughn Pinkston (Villanova. Suspended his freshman year. Solid player for Nova)
47. KT Harrell (Started at UVA, transferred to Auburn where he had 18 ppg year last year. One year left.)
48. Vander Blue (Marquette)
49. Travis McKie (Started every game in four years at Wake. Decent stats on a terrible team)
50. Stacey Poole (One year at Kentucky, transferred to Georgia Tech. Not much to show for it.)
51. JT Terrell (One year at Wake, transferred to USC. 9 ppg scorer last year)
52. Casey Prather (Florida. Good player with nearly 20 ppg his senior year)
53. Keala King (Two years at Arizona State. Transferred to Long Beach State. 10 ppg last year)
54. Anthony Brown (Stanford. Solid role player)
55. Mychal Parker (Two poor years at Maryland. Ended career in NAIA.)
56. Lorenzo Brown (NC State. Declared for 2013 draft, went undrafted, and spent most of year in D-League)
57. Gary Franklin (Baylor. Role player.)
58. James Johnson (Started at Virginia. Transferred to SDSU. Bit player.)
I am not going to try to identify them, but I bet there was at least 21 better players than this group that were ranked worse than 58. So much for the value of ranking recruits.
[/quote]
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Vander Blue was not a bust at Marquette. Your expectations way exceeded his abilities. Don't worry, you weren't alone in making that mistake.
Blue was RSCI #48 in the country in 2010. Here is a list of the ten ranked higher than him....and the ten ranked behind:
38. Dwight Powell (Forward, Stanford...slightly better stats...2nd round pick this year)
39. Tyler Lamb (Guard, UCLA...started well, transferred to Long Beach midway though junior year where he had 21 ppg)
40. Jordan McRae (Guard, Tennessee...didn't play much as freshman but became 18 ppg scorer..2nd round pick)
41. Phil Pressey (Guard, Missouri....more of a PG...declared for 2013 draft and went undrafted)
42. Nate Lubik (Georgetown...decent role player)
43. Okaro White (Florida State...decent player with stats just under Vander's)
44. Dominique Ferguson (Two years at FIU....playing in England after declaring for 2012 draft)
45. Luke Cothron (Committed to Auburn, transferred all over the place...no idea what he is doing now)
46. Jayvaughn Pinkston (Villanova. Suspended his freshman year. Solid player for Nova)
47. KT Harrell (Started at UVA, transferred to Auburn where he had 18 ppg year last year. One year left.)
48. Vander Blue (Marquette)
49. Travis McKie (Started every game in four years at Wake. Decent stats on a terrible team)
50. Stacey Poole (One year at Kentucky, transferred to Georgia Tech. Not much to show for it.)
51. JT Terrell (One year at Wake, transferred to USC. 9 ppg scorer last year)
52. Casey Prather (Florida. Good player with nearly 20 ppg his senior year)
53. Keala King (Two years at Arizona State. Transferred to Long Beach State. 10 ppg last year)
54. Anthony Brown (Stanford. Solid role player)
55. Mychal Parker (Two poor years at Maryland. Ended career in NAIA.)
56. Lorenzo Brown (NC State. Declared for 2013 draft, went undrafted, and spent most of year in D-League)
57. Gary Franklin (Baylor. Role player.)
58. James Johnson (Started at Virginia. Transferred to SDSU. Bit player.)
I'm not going to debate who is better than Blue on this list, and who is worse. But there is a couple of things that are clear. There is not a single super-star player on here. There isn't even a likely first round pick worthy player. (Maybe Pinkston with a good year). There are a couple 2nd round picks. Some good D-League players. Pretty much what Vander is.
And there are some busts here (Ferguson, Cothron, Parker). Vander certainly isn't one of them.
So again, calling Vander a bust is completely false.
Outstanding work here, Sultan. Can't argue with a single word. Lots of facts and sound opinions based on the facts.
I hope Wojo is able to recruit a bust or two like Vander every year!
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Yeah, recruitin' a bust like this would be great, hey?
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I am not going to try to identify them, but I bet there was at least 21 better players than this group that were ranked worse than 58. So much for the value of ranking recruits.
Sure, and I am sure there are a bunch above that are worse.
But the point is that whenever you use a term like "bust" it is relative to expectations coming in. And expectations coming in have to be closely tied to recruiting ranking.
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You are entitled!
I don't downplay his last year with us. He had a couple of great games, including some when the money was on the line. But my perception is on his whole body of work and the fact that he was a flash in the pan.
He was a good, solid player for three years. It took him awhile to be an effective scorer, but he played 19, 25 and 33 mpg in his three years because he played incredibly good defense and rebounded well for his position. In his last year, he was the teams leading scorer and arguably MU's best player.
I'm not sure what you expected of him, but he wasn't a "bust" nor was he a "flash in the pan."
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He was a good, solid player for three years. It took him awhile to be an effective scorer, but he played 19, 25 and 33 mpg in his three years because he played incredibly good defense and rebounded well for his position. In his last year, he was the teams leading scorer and arguably MU's best player.
I'm not sure what you expected of him, but he wasn't a "bust" nor was he a "flash in the pan."
I am impressed with the recruiting research and how everyone turned the data out. But given the hype at the time, I expected a lot more out of Blue than we received. Not withstanding the statistical data, I am disappointed in the outcome.
Mayo is another ball game altogether. Maybe I expected OJ instead of Todd! Regardless, we never got what we thought we should have.
Bottom line -- one year good, one year mediocre and one freshman year for Vander and full disappointment for Todd. I suppose my attitude would be different if Vander followed his junior year with a more impressive senior year. But that never happened. Something did not gel between Vander and the Hillbilly and, as my first "incorrect" post pointed out, I do hold the coach responsible. I respectfully think the Hillbilly should have obtained more out of Vander and Todd, just as I think the Hillbilly should have obtained more from Jamil and Jujuan last year.
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He was a good, solid player for three years. It took him awhile to be an effective scorer, but he played 19, 25 and 33 mpg in his three years because he played incredibly good defense and rebounded well for his position. In his last year, he was the teams leading scorer and arguably MU's best player.
I'm not sure what you expected of him, but he wasn't a "bust" nor was he a "flash in the pan."
Only disagreement is the word "arguably". I'd say without a doubt.
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Yeah, recruitin' a bust like this would be great, hey?
while she is lovely, 4ever, I prefer the natural breasticles.
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He was a good, solid player for three years. It took him awhile to be an effective scorer, but he played 19, 25 and 33 mpg in his three years because he played incredibly good defense and rebounded well for his position. In his last year, he was the teams leading scorer and arguably MU's best player.
I'm not sure what you expected of him, but he wasn't a "bust" nor was he a "flash in the pan."
He wasn't a bust and he wasn't a "good, solid player for three years." He was awful as a freshman, marginally better as a sophomore and had flashes his junior year. I'd say his heroics vs. st,John's, Davidson and Butler (justifiably?) covered up for what was also a very inconsistent, if not downright mediocre, junior year.
I will give him credit for this, his improvement between sophomore and junior year HAD to be the result of some very hard work.
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I am impressed with the recruiting research and how everyone turned the data out. But given the hype at the time, I expected a lot more out of Blue than we received. Not withstanding the statistical data, I am disappointed in the outcome.
Mayo is another ball game altogether. Maybe I expected OJ instead of Todd! Regardless, we never got what we thought we should have.
Bottom line -- one year good, one year mediocre and one freshman year for Vander and full disappointment for Todd. I suppose my attitude would be different if Vander followed his junior year with a more impressive senior year. But that never happened. Something did not gel between Vander and the Hillbilly and, as my first "incorrect" post pointed out, I do hold the coach responsible. I respectfully think the Hillbilly should have obtained more out of Vander and Todd, just as I think the Hillbilly should have obtained more from Jamil and Jujuan last year.
So you blame Buzz for not getting Vander's production to match your misplaced "hype?"
As for Mayo, that's all on him. He clearly had the potential to produce better than a non-rated, three star guard, and oftentimes matched that potential. But Buzz can't make people go to class. Buzz can't make people show up on time for practice. Buzz can't make someone a better teammate.
Really Buzz can be blamed for a number of things, but you are grasping at straws here.
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He wasn't a bust and he wasn't a "good, solid player for three years." He was awful as a freshman, marginally better as a sophomore and had flashes his junior year. I'd say his heroics vs. st,John's, Davidson and Butler (justifiably?) covered up for what was also a very inconsistent, if not downright mediocre, junior year.
I will give him credit for this, his improvement between sophomore and junior year HAD to be the result of some very hard work.
When a team's best player falls in the area between very inconsistent and downright mediocre that team's outlook is bleak. Instead, we were Big East co-champs and made the Elite 8. Whoever was coaching must have been a freakin' genius.
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When a team's best player falls in the area between very inconsistent and downright mediocre that team's outlook is bleak. Instead, we were Big East co-champs and made the Elite 8. Whoever was coaching must have been a freakin' genius.
POINTS!!!!! I ONLY LOOK AT POINTS!!!!
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So you blame Buzz for not getting Vander's production to match your misplaced "hype?"
As for Mayo, that's all on him. He clearly had the potential to produce better than a non-rated, three star guard, and oftentimes matched that potential. But Buzz can't make people go to class. Buzz can't make people show up on time for practice. Buzz can't make someone a better teammate.
Really Buzz can be blamed for a number of things, but you are grasping at straws here.
Sultan, you're a joy to argue with man. That's why I love this forum! The job of a coach is to teach and motivate. If my boss gets inconsistent and subpar performance from me, sure I get blamed. So does my boss. Ultimately, if we don't do what we say we do, we both are given our walking papers.
For Vander, I know he had some great moments. I also know that even in his junior year, he was inconsistent. He quit before we could see the full benefit of teaching and motivating -- Vander's senior year. I do blame the Hillbilly and Vander. The former because he could not find the key to unlock consistent greatness and could not keep him in the fold when it got to the point where maybe we were on the verge of a breakout year; the latter because he didn't do the things he needed to do to be great.
Ditto for Mayo.
Let me leave you with this thought (and then I promise, no more). In the mid-1960s, Steve Carlton came up with the St. Louis Cardinals. He had good years in 1967 and 1968 when the Cardinals were in the World Series. By 1970, he had a horrible year (10-19, worst in the NL) and was traded after the season to the Philadelphia Phillies. Compared to what he became as a Phillie, and what his talent made him, he was a bust with the St. Louis Cardinals. I'm measuring him against what he could have been rather than what he actually was.
I hope for both Vander and Todd's sake, the bust as a Warrior turns into something really great at some point in the future.
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So you blame Buzz for not getting Vander's production to match your misplaced "hype?"
As for Mayo, that's all on him. He clearly had the potential to produce better than a non-rated, three star guard, and oftentimes matched that potential. But Buzz can't make people go to class. Buzz can't make people show up on time for practice. Buzz can't make someone a better teammate.
Really Buzz can be blamed for a number of things, but you are grasping at straws here.
I was very hard on Blue his first couple of years. However, that was because he continuosly made dumb decisions on the court His junior year he did not make many dumb decisions on court, but he did after the season was over.
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When a team's best player falls in the area between very inconsistent and downright mediocre that team's outlook is bleak. Instead, we were Big East co-champs and made the Elite 8. Whoever was coaching must have been a freakin' genius.
Apparently the genius switch can be turned off, despite that mantra that it cannot.
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http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/vander-blue-1/gamelog/2013/
In his "mediocre" Junior year, Vander scored in double figures in 26 out of 34 games. He scored 16+ points in 18 of those 26 games. He shot 46% for the year with the best mid range game in the country according to Synergy.
EDIT: Didn't read the whole thread. Looks like others also made similar arguments. Bottom line, in no way was Vander a bust or mediocre. Not a chance.
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http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/vander-blue-1/gamelog/2013/
In his "mediocre" Junior year, Vander scored in double figures in 26 out of 34 games. He scored 16+ points in 18 of those 26 games. He shot 46% for the year with the best mid range game in the country according to Synergy.
EDIT: Didn't read the whole thread. Looks like others also made similar arguments. Bottom line, in no way was Vander a bust or mediocre. Not a chance.
Thank you. I'm Curious what stats people have that prove that Vanders junior season was mediocre or a bust.
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When a team's best player falls in the area between very inconsistent and downright mediocre that team's outlook is bleak. Instead, we were Big East co-champs and made the Elite 8. Whoever was coaching must have been a freakin' genius.
Sounds an awful lot like the Chicos of the last 6 years...
But, Buzz did do a very good job his first 5 years at MU. Best in my view since Al. Too bad he had to lose himself along the way and have his ego spiral out of control. Not entirely uncommon in the profession, nor unique to Buzz. But, he wore out his welcome. NO reason MU would let a coach basically walk, if they felt he was truly worth keeping. He became higher maintenance and more of a diva than he was worth. In some ways, not a whole lot different than Crean, but at least it took Crean 9 years to turn into a douche.
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Well...Vander had more turnovers than assists, which last time I checked is actually less than mediocre. He was also awful in our final two NCAA games and was actually pretty terrible against Davidson as well (but look 14 points!!!).
His Game against Butler was, by far, the best game of his career and props to him for that.
What are you guys trying to sell? He wasn't a bust. He was pretty much OK.
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Well...Vander had more turnovers than assists, which last time I checked is actually less than mediocre. He was also awful in our final two NCAA games and was actually pretty terrible against Davidson as well (but look 14 points!!!).
His Game against Butler was, by far, the best game of his career and props to him for that.
What are you guys trying to sell? He wasn't a bust. He was pretty much OK.
I've felt some have greatly exaggerated the accomplishments of Vander's junior year. He had a solid to good season - nothing spectacular. Think the real reality is, is that all of us were so caught off guard by it, given what he'd shown as a freshman and sophomore - it seemed like a great year. I don't recall another MU player improving so much between sophomore and junior year. For that, above all else Vander deserves credit as he must have put in a ton of work, and he did have a few clutch games for us down the stretch. But, his junior season was really nothing better than what Todd Mayo authored last year...hard as it is for some of Vander's biggest supporters here to acknowledge, even though the stats bear it out.
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But, his junior season was really nothing better than what Todd Mayo authored last year...hard as it is for some of Vander's biggest supporters here to acknowledge, even though the stats bear it out.
But see that's just not true because Mayo was used significantly less. 10 minutes less per game. Blue pretty much had the same OR as Todd, but because he played almost 50% more, he clearly had a better year.
You *could* argue that if Mayo was used as much as Blue was the year before, that he could have had a better year. But that would have meant being as offensively efficient over an extra 10 mpg. Not saying it couldn't have happened....
Not to mention that Blue was the better defender.
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Well...Vander had more turnovers than assists, which last time I checked is actually less than mediocre. He was also awful in our final two NCAA games and was actually pretty terrible against Davidson as well (but look 14 points!!!).
His Game against Butler was, by far, the best game of his career and props to him for that.
What are you guys trying to sell? He wasn't a bust. He was pretty much OK.
So our best player on an elite 8 team was just "okay"? And that same guy played in 5 NBA games at age 21.
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Apparently the genius switch can be turned off, despite that mantra that it cannot.
Still have trouble detecting sarcasm without teal, I see. The point was that Vander was anything but mediocre. Too many dimwits around here.
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But, his junior season was really nothing better than what Todd Mayo authored last year...hard as it is for some of Vander's biggest supporters here to acknowledge, even though the stats bear it out.
Yet another example of over-reliance on stats, IMHO.
One reason that team went to the Elite 8 is because not only were the individual parts pretty darn good, but the sum of the parts was even better. They just meshed well, with each player fitting a role and helping buoy the others. So while one could look at Junior's stats and go, "meh," those who actually watched the games know how important he was to the team's success. While Jamil disappeared at times, there was enough support around him to counteract those occasions; meanwhile, when he excelled, it lifted us greatly. And so on down the lineup.
Vander was the most consistent, most valuable contributor, and he capped it by his clutch performances against St. John's, Davidson and Butler.
I can't believe we're still having this discussion. Again.
But I guess it beats Dawson vs. You Know Who, Part 842!
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hard as it is for some of Vander's biggest supporters here to acknowledge, even though the stats bear it out.
Not intending to start a flame war here, but you can't have it both ways Ners. Either you depend on stats to bolster your arguments or you don't....don't use them when they are convenient for your purposes.
Besides, even statistically Blue was better than Mayo by a fair margin, especially if you look at the advanced stats that take into account usage rate and defense.
Bottom line, Blue was the best player on an Elite Eight team. Todd Mayo was the best player(arguably) on a team that didn't make any post season tournament. The only major difference between those two teams? Vander Blue wasn't on last years team.
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If you poll people who know basketball, and ask them "Who had the better year? 2012-13 Vander Blue or 2013-14 Todd Mayo?"
Blue would win in a landslide. It wouldn't be close.
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Sounds an awful lot like the Chicos of the last 6 years...
But, Buzz did do a very good job his first 5 years at MU. Best in my view since Al. Too bad he had to lose himself along the way and have his ego spiral out of control. Not entirely uncommon in the profession, nor unique to Buzz. But, he wore out his welcome. NO reason MU would let a coach basically walk, if they felt he was truly worth keeping. He became higher maintenance and more of a diva than he was worth. In some ways, not a whole lot different than Crean, but at least it took Crean 9 years to turn into a douche.
Same goes for you as Chico. You're too dim to see obvious sarcasm. Please stop writing the same posts over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. Ad infinitum, ad nauseam.
Heard it through the grapevine that you (ironically under the nom de guerre "Buzz Crush") are dominating the Scout Board and making that forum unreadable too. You insult me by comparing me to Chico. LOL. Look in the mirror.
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Funny how this board is being taken over by two or three people who do not tolerate any other opinion. It is obvious that Sultan and Lenny are the same person or twins. He believes that his/ their opinions are the only ones that matter. Both are condescending and arrogant. He/they must be one and the same. I guess Lenny went to MU but acts like a ND fan. And now will come the bully tactic from Sultan telling me to grow a pair Incidentally, Sultan, I did grow a pair during 20 months in 68-70 in places like Quang Tri province, north of Danang and other locales in I corps.
So, please try to tolerate others, even though we all know it is difficult when we are so unworthy.
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Thank you for your service willie.
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Funny how this board is being taken over by two or three people who do not tolerate any other opinion. It is obvious that Sultan and Lenny are the same person or twins. He believes that his/ their opinions are the only ones that matter. Both are condescending and arrogant.
So, please try to tolerate others, even though we all know it is difficult when we are so unworthy.
Can you please point out exactly where Sultan and Lenny said or inferred that they don't tolerate other's opinions and their's are the only ones that matter? Cause I just saw two people offering a counter opinion to someone else's opinion (and using facts to back it up in Sultan's case). In fact, it seems like the only one trying to shut down an opinion is you. And before you criticize me for falling in line with the "King of the Slurpers" I also think that Ners, PRN, and others were merely offering their opinions as well (and backing it up with facts in PRN's case).
Thank you in advance for your help clarifying this situation for me.
Sincerely,
First General of the Slurpers
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Still have trouble detecting sarcasm without teal, I see. The point was that Vander was anything but mediocre. Too many dimwits around here.
Detected it just fine. I was being sarcastic as well, by trying to turn the saying about not being able to 'turn turn off the genius switch' around a bit....since Buzz was actually called a genius on this board on more than a few occasions, not necessarily by you.
(http://thepeopleproject.com/content/artworks/quotes/quotes/David_Letterman_-_There_is.jpg)
I wasn't weighing in on the Vander debate, but I get your point. In my opinion, he was below average his freshman year and incredibly immature off the court for reasons documented and undocumented here. Average his sophomore year, very good his junior (just lacked some consistency). I have no doubt in my mind if he stayed for his senior year he would have been drafted and stuck with a NBA team. School wasn't for him, he listened to the wrong whisperers, etc. Is what it is.
Sorry if you think I'm a dimwit, Sultan thinks my wife and I are liars. Happy Friday
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Funny how this board is being taken over by two or three people who do not tolerate any other opinion. It is obvious that Sultan and Lenny are the same person or twins. He believes that his/ their opinions are the only ones that matter. Both are condescending and arrogant. He/they must be one and the same. I guess Lenny went to MU but acts like a ND fan. And now will come the bully tactic from Sultan telling me to grow a pair Incidentally, Sultan, I did grow a pair during 20 months in 68-70 in places like Quang Tri province, north of Danang and other locales in I corps.
So, please try to tolerate others, even though we all know it is difficult when we are so unworthy.
Thank you for your service.
You may want to provide photographic evidence of your service, maybe get it notarized or you may be called a liar here. Just trying to help, we're a little short here these days on MU Scoop in believing others. OH, and make sure your wife isn't the one backing your claim of service....she don't count.
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Funny how this board is being taken over by two or three people who do not tolerate any other opinion. It is obvious that Sultan and Lenny are the same person or twins. He believes that his/ their opinions are the only ones that matter. Both are condescending and arrogant. He/they must be one and the same. I guess Lenny went to MU but acts like a ND fan. And now will come the bully tactic from Sultan telling me to grow a pair Incidentally, Sultan, I did grow a pair during 20 months in 68-70 in places like Quang Tri province, north of Danang and other locales in I corps.
So, please try to tolerate others, even though we all know it is difficult when we are so unworthy.
Ners has 5500+ posts here over a relatively short time, so if anybody is "taking over this board" you might have the wrong guys. Some of his opinions (more PT for Burton, Derrick was a sub par starting point guard, Jake was a sub par starting 2 guard, etc.,) I agree with. Others (Dawson should have played 30 minutes) I disagree with but tolerate Still others ("Buzz was a genius who - because of his ego, thanks Dr Laura - suddenly went nuts and started throwing games" or "Anyone who disagrees with me about Derrick/Dawson's minutes (including Buzz) is basketball brain dead") I don't tolerate - because on their face they don't make sense.
I know you get very sensitive about people calling you names, but you are just as guilty (calling people condescending and arrogant is, after all, name calling). I'm not "intolerant" about you calling Buzz a BSer and the Lonesome Cowboy. I'm not intolerant of you mocking Buzz allegedly calling Derrick a game changer once. I disagree, because I think you take things out of context. But where I really disagree is you running it into the ground with constant repetition.
On another note, I sincerely salute your service. The disrespect that many citizens showed during your time in Viet Nam AND upon your return home was abominable. You (and all who served) deserved better.
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So our best player on an elite 8 team was just "okay"? And that same guy played in 5 NBA games at age 21.
That's exactly what I'm saying, although it's not cut and dried that he was our best player. Several players on that team stood out at different parts of the season.
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That's exactly what I'm saying, although it's not cut and dried that he was our best player. Several players on that team stood out at different parts of the season.
Even if he wasn't clearly our best player (I think he was), it's pretty hard to win the BEast and go to the Elite 8 with a few guys who are "OK' and the rest worse than that.
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How many Scoopers are we up to now on the Fook Yourself Meter?
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How many Scoopers are we up to now on the Fook Yourself Meter?
17-15 + dog days of August = a Fook Yourself Meter that's through the roof.
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Detected it just fine. I was being sarcastic as well, by trying to turn the saying about not being able to 'turn turn off the genius switch' around a bit....since Buzz was actually called a genius on this board on more than a few occasions, not necessarily by you.
(http://thepeopleproject.com/content/artworks/quotes/quotes/David_Letterman_-_There_is.jpg)
I wasn't weighing in on the Vander debate, but I get your point. In my opinion, he was below average his freshman year and incredibly immature off the court for reasons documented and undocumented here. Average his sophomore year, very good his junior (just lacked some consistency). I have no doubt in my mind if he stayed for his senior year he would have been drafted and stuck with a NBA team. School wasn't for him, he listened to the wrong whisperers, etc. Is what it is.
Sorry if you think I'm a dimwit, Sultan thinks my wife and I are liars. Happy Friday
Sorry for missing the sarcasm - didn't know about the Letterman/genius thing. My turn to be the dimwit.
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Even if he wasn't clearly our best player (I think he was), it's pretty hard to win the BEast and go to the Elite 8 with a few guys who are "OK' and the rest worse than that.
I'm not real clear on the correlation between going to the Elite 8 and Vander's career as a whole (or even his junior year). I don't think anybody would argue that Butler, Crowder and DJO were all better players than Blue, yet none went to the Elite 8 or won a Big East title. Blue was pretty much OK (certainly not a bust). Again, what are you guys arguing? That he was a great player because he may or may not have been the best player on an Elite 8 team?
I would be interested in Henry Sugar's take on Vander in terms of his list of MU players. In my mind, Davante had a much better career than Vander Blue. Vander made two heroic shots and had a phenomenal game against Butler, but in the last 10 years 2004-2014 I'm not sure he makes a list of our top 10 players. Just my opinion.
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I'm not real clear on the correlation between going to the Elite 8 and Vander's career as a whole (or even his junior year). I don't think anybody would argue that Butler, Crowder and DJO were all better players than Blue, yet none went to the Elite 8 or won a Big East title. Blue was pretty much OK (certainly not a bust). Again, what are you guys arguing? That he was a great player because he may or may not have been the best player on an Elite 8 team?
I would be interested in Henry Sugar's take on Vander in terms of his list of MU players. In my mind, Davante had a much better career than Vander Blue. Vander made two heroic shots and had a phenomenal game against Butler, but in the last 10 years 2004-2014 I'm not sure he makes a list of our top 10 players. Just my opinion.
I would agree that Crowder and Butler were better as seniors than Blue was as a junior. A junior to junior comparison is close. And Jae and Jimmy weren't your average or mediocre guys. My point is, that by his junior year at least, neither was Vander. He made big plays on offense and defense and relished rather than ran from the big moments. A leader. We went from Big East champs/Elite 8 to the sewer with our entire front court returning. Mayo was fine as Lockett's replacement. Derrick was a downtick from Junior, but one that the intact frontline should have offset. Vander to Jake? that's where we fell off the mountain.
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Same goes for you as Chico. You're too dim to see obvious sarcasm. Please stop writing the same posts over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. Ad infinitum, ad nauseam.
Heard it through the grapevine that you (ironically under the nom de guerre "Buzz Crush") are dominating the Scout Board and making that forum unreadable too. You insult me by comparing me to Chico. LOL. Look in the mirror.
LOL - When every one of your posts basically worships Buzz ad naseum...and takes up from him at every turn - sorry the sarcasm detector wasn't very good when you mentioned must have been some genius coaching.
Still looking forward to some critical comments by on Buzz. Though doubt it will happen, other than a minor criticism much like how Chico's makes an occasional comment like Crean was a douche - that doesn't absolve the fact that 98% of the guys post slurp his balls - just as you do Buzz.
You are to Buzz what Chicos is to Crean. Sorry you can't see it...but to any others here it is quite obvious your Buzz Crush (haha) is going every bit as strong as Chicos Crean Crush.
Look in the mirror Lenny. Have a nice weekend!
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Ners has 5500+ posts here over a relatively short time, so if anybody is "taking over this board" you might have the wrong guys. Some of his opinions (more PT for Burton, Derrick was a sub par starting point guard, Jake was a sub par starting 2 guard, etc.,) I agree with. Others (Dawson should have played 30 minutes) I disagree with but tolerate Still others ("Buzz was a genius who - because of his ego, thanks Dr Laura - suddenly went nuts and started throwing games" or "Anyone who disagrees with me about Derrick/Dawson's minutes (including Buzz) is basketball brain dead") I don't tolerate - because on their face they don't make sense.
I know you get very sensitive about people calling you names, but you are just as guilty (calling people condescending and arrogant is, after all, name calling). I'm not "intolerant" about you calling Buzz a BSer and the Lonesome Cowboy. I'm not intolerant of you mocking Buzz allegedly calling Derrick a game changer once. I disagree, because I think you take things out of context. But where I really disagree is you running it into the ground with constant repetition.
On another note, I sincerely salute your service. The disrespect that many citizens showed during your time in Viet Nam AND upon your return home was abominable. You (and all who served) deserved better.
Answer the question Lenny: Did it make 1 OUNCE of sense that in the last game of the season, in a must win game, that Buzz benched Burton for the 6:30 of the last 7:00 minutes of that game. A game in which Burton scored 23 points in the first 23 minutes of the 24 he was played, on 64% shooting from the field?
There were a lot of very marginal and questionable coaching decisions that really do point toward was Buzz truly trying to win games. Many outside the Dawson Derrick debate. Mayo, Gardner and Burton's usage compared to Jake, Otule and Juan. You really believe that starting lineup Buzz played was our best lineup???? What coach doesn't start his best players???
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What coach doesn't start his best players???
2012-13 Buzz Williams - started Juan Anderson over Jamil Wilson
2010-11 Buzz Williams - started Erik Williams over Jae Crowder
And then there is the whole Chris Otule over Davante Gardner thing.
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I'm not real clear on the correlation between going to the Elite 8 and Vander's career as a whole (or even his junior year). I don't think anybody would argue that Butler, Crowder and DJO were all better players than Blue, yet none went to the Elite 8 or won a Big East title. Blue was pretty much OK (certainly not a bust). Again, what are you guys arguing? That he was a great player because he may or may not have been the best player on an Elite 8 team?
I would be interested in Henry Sugar's take on Vander in terms of his list of MU players. In my mind, Davante had a much better career than Vander Blue. Vander made two heroic shots and had a phenomenal game against Butler, but in the last 10 years 2004-2014 I'm not sure he makes a list of our top 10 players. Just my opinion.
I liked DJO slightly better (a more entertaining player), but if you click on Blue's name in kenpom, the 2nd most similar player to his junior year in the entirety of kenpom's database just so happens to be DJO's junior year.
Just introducing one data point to the discussion. That is all.
Edited to add:
The trajectory of Blue's ORtg: 89.1, 95.6, 104.2
Trajectory of DJO's: N/A, 107.0, 106.8, 109.1
Not out of bounds to think that Blue could have put up the same or better senior year as DJO had he stayed.
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LOL - When every one of your posts basically worships Buzz ad naseum...and takes up from him at every turn - sorry the sarcasm detector wasn't very good when you mentioned must have been some genius coaching.
Still looking forward to some critical comments by on Buzz. Though doubt it will happen, other than a minor criticism much like how Chico's makes an occasional comment like Crean was a douche - that doesn't absolve the fact that 98% of the guys post slurp his balls - just as you do Buzz.
You are to Buzz what Chicos is to Crean. Sorry you can't see it...but to any others here it is quite obvious your Buzz Crush (haha) is going every bit as strong as Chicos Crean Crush.
Look in the mirror Lenny. Have a nice weekend!
Slurps his balls? Nah, I just correct the falsehoods, don't think it is all that cool to rip on someone's wife, or whether he kisses his son, etc, nor do I think his starting point at MU was anything like that of Buzz's (facilities, players, conference, etc). I'm scared to think where MU would be without the players, Final Four, Big East, etc that we had during his time at MU.
I'll bet I've said Crean is a douche, jerk, prick, dick, ego driven maniac, difficult to work for, etc more than 300 times if not many more. A quick search just on a few of those combinations turns up more than 150 results from me. I said it plenty of times, whether you acknowledge it is out of my control. Not sure how one can slurp someone's balls and also believe he is a douche, prick, jerk, etc. But hey, whatever floats your boat.
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What coach doesn't start his best players???
Tons of them. Ever heard of Red Auerbach? He had a Hall of Famer named John Havlicek coming off the bench for years.
And let's not forget Al McGuire. Lots of MU fans were going apecrap in 1977 when he started Bill Neary (at least as offensively challenged as Derrick) over Bernard Toone, a freshman more gifted than Burton, let alone John Dawson. Lots of dimwits were all over Al, though nobody that I recall accused him of throwing games. Had you been around, I have no doubt you would have led the lynch mob.
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or whether he kisses his son.
One of my boys has 5" inches on me. If I kissed him on the lips he would cold cock me. If I kissed him on the lips in public he would kill me. Bare handed.
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Sounds an awful lot like the Chicos of the last 6 years...
But, Buzz did do a very good job his first 5 years at MU. Best in my view since Al. Too bad he had to lose himself along the way and have his ego spiral out of control. Not entirely uncommon in the profession, nor unique to Buzz. But, he wore out his welcome. NO reason MU would let a coach basically walk, if they felt he was truly worth keeping. He became higher maintenance and more of a diva than he was worth. In some ways, not a whole lot different than Crean, but at least it took Crean 9 years to turn into a douche.
Internet fighting!!!!!!!!(http://i.imgur.com/zcgfGBU.gif)
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One of my boys has 5" inches on me. If I kissed him on the lips he would cold cock me. If I kissed him on the lips in public he would kill me. Bare handed.
The world continues to change
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1324799/How-men-kissing-lips-friendship-longer-taboo.html
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The world continues to change
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1324799/How-men-kissing-lips-friendship-longer-taboo.html
I have no problem with the mating preferences of people and the legal status of those relationships. But coming from a testosterone-fueled, all-male environment where, because for 15 days at a time guys spend every second of every day together in extremely close proximity, there is a high degree of homophobia and this sort of behavior would be somewhat frowned upon. In fact, if a ROMAD tried to kiss another guy on the team on the lips someone would get killed.
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I have no problem with the mating preferences of people and the legal status of those relationships. But coming from a testosterone-fueled, all-male environment where, because for 15 days at a time guys spend every second of every day together in extremely close proximity, there is a high degree of homophobia and this sort of behavior would be somewhat frowned upon. In fact, if a ROMAD tried to kiss another guy on the team on the lips someone would get killed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-njlyoqCHk
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Ners has 5500+ posts here over a relatively short time, so if anybody is "taking over this board" you might have the wrong guys. Some of his opinions (more PT for Burton, Derrick was a sub par starting point guard, Jake was a sub par starting 2 guard, etc.,) I agree with. Others (Dawson should have played 30 minutes) I disagree with but tolerate Still others ("Buzz was a genius who - because of his ego, thanks Dr Laura - suddenly went nuts and started throwing games" or "Anyone who disagrees with me about Derrick/Dawson's minutes (including Buzz) is basketball brain dead") I don't tolerate - because on their face they don't make sense.
I know you get very sensitive about people calling you names, but you are just as guilty (calling people condescending and arrogant is, after all, name calling). I'm not "intolerant" about you calling Buzz a BSer and the Lonesome Cowboy. I'm not intolerant of you mocking Buzz allegedly calling Derrick a game changer once. I disagree, because I think you take things out of context. But where I really disagree is you running it into the ground with constant repetition.
On another note, I sincerely salute your service. The disrespect that many citizens showed during your time in Viet Nam AND upon your return home was abominable. You (and all who served) deserved better.
Thank you.
Yeah, I call people slurpers for drinking the buzz Kool Aid. I do not consider that derogatory, unlike, "imbecile, dumb, stupid," etc. Yeah I call Buzz a downhome phony BS'er, because IMO he is. One example: I will be at MU as long as they want me". Either that was not true, or he was not wanted. I have my opinion on which is true. You can have yours.
And by the way, Buzz called him an elite game changer more than once, in defense of his first comment--and that is a fact. He defended the statement, later. It was not alleged, as you allege, but he said it more than once. And where I disagree with the Buzz slurpers is that they continue to drive that opinion into the ground, even now, to defend him.
After that rant, I will now try my best to stop mocking Buzz (which is difficult given his BS), but my pledge now is to respect the VT program and coach, more than I respect ND.
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2012-13 Buzz Williams - started Juan Anderson over Jamil Wilson
2010-11 Buzz Williams - started Erik Williams over Jae Crowder
And then there is the whole Chris Otule over Davante Gardner thing.
Yep that statement is tough to dissect from Sultan. Buzz Williams would be the first one that comes to mind. Another starter was Reggie Smith who played two minutes per half and never saw the floor after those stints.
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I have no problem with the mating preferences of people and the legal status of those relationships. But coming from a testosterone-fueled, all-male environment where, because for 15 days at a time guys spend every second of every day together in extremely close proximity, there is a high degree of homophobia and this sort of behavior would be somewhat frowned upon. In fact, if a ROMAD tried to kiss another guy on the team on the lips someone would get killed.
But wait, Keefe... all of the Armed Services have now changed. We now have co-ed mixed units--probably even in the Navy Seals and Force Recon Marines. And everybody knows that makes for a better more diversified military. And you would not believe the names called recruits in the USMC boot camp back in the day. Even worse than Full Metal Jacket. Recruits nowadays tell me that does not happen. So you are obviously referring to a knuckle dragging Neanderthal old school that has been eradicated.
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Yep that statement is tough to dissect from Sultan. Buzz Williams would be the first one that comes to mind. Another starter was Reggie Smith who played two minutes per half and never saw the floor after those stints.
Right. The point I was trying to make was that the coach Ners loved to tout, did the same exact thing before that he is now critical of.
And as others pointed out Al did the same thing.
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Tons of them. Ever heard of Red Auerbach? He had a Hall of Famer named John Havlicek coming off the bench for years.
And let's not forget Al McGuire. Lots of MU fans were going apecrap in 1977 when he started Bill Neary (at least as offensively challenged as Derrick) over Bernard Toone, a freshman more gifted than Burton, let alone John Dawson. Lots of dimwits were all over Al, though nobody that I recall accused him of throwing games. Had you been around, I have no doubt you would have led the lynch mob.
You are right about Al, Lenny. Toone was one of Al's special cases. Cannot explain Al's rationale about Neary, although he was a good role player. Tough to question what Al did, given his results. Same with Auerbach. My biggest criticism of Al would be the inopportune technicals in some big games. But hell, the guy is a legend, so he does get some slack.
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Pretty sure the Lakers started Rambis and brought McAdoo/Thompson off of the bench, the Sixers started Iavaroni and brought Bobby Jones off of the bench, the Celtics brought McHale off of the bench, the Bucks brought Pierce off of the bench........There is a long history of bringing one of the best players off of the bench.
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But wait, Keefe... all of the Armed Services have now changed. We now have co-ed mixed units--probably even in the Navy Seals and Force Recon Marines. And everybody knows that makes for a better more diversified military. And you would not believe the names called recruits in the USMC boot camp back in the day. Even worse than Full Metal Jacket. Recruits nowadays tell me that does not happen. So you are obviously referring to a knuckle dragging Neanderthal old school that has been eradicated.
Willie
No females in SOCOM. Tip of the Spear is all balls.
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One of my boys has 5" inches on me. If I kissed him on the lips he would cold cock me. If I kissed him on the lips in public he would kill me. Bare handed.
Hyperbolic, I presume. If factual, you have my sympathy.
wbsb
USMC
19656**
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Hyperbolic, I presume. If factual, you have my sympathy.
wbsb
USMC
19656**
It's embellished, obviously. Son #2 is 5" taller and has 40 pounds of muscle on me but the reality is that neither of us would kiss each other on the lips.
I was a PLC - Upshur 79, Mainside Quantico 80. Took an Air Force commission when Commandant Barrow dictated all Air Option PLC's had to go ground for one tour. Mother Blue took in 375 grounded Marine O-1's. God Bless Gen Lew Allen. Semper Fi.
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It's embellished, obviously. Son #2 is 5" taller and has 40 pounds of muscle on me but the reality is that neither of us would kiss each other on the lips.
I was a PLC - Upshur 79, Mainside Quantico 80. Took an Air Force commission when Commandant Barrow dictated all Air Option PLC's had to go ground for one tour. Mother Blue took in 375 grounded Marine O-1's. God Bless Gen Lew Allen. Semper Fi.
USMC 67-70
San Diego; Pendleton; Cherry Point; Pendleton; Quang Tri province, FLSG Support group; Da Nang; I Corps
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I would hope all fathers wished their sons had 5 inches on the old man, aina?
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Bunch of old man homophobia on a basketball forum. Awesome.
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Bunch of old man homophobia on a basketball forum. Awesome.
How is objecting to a father kissing his son on the lips "homophobia?"
"Awesome" interpretation, though.
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Right. The point I was trying to make was that the coach Ners loved to tout, did the same exact thing before that he is now critical of.
And as others pointed out Al did the same thing.
Starting 1 weak link isn't bizarre. Starting 3 or 4 of them together is BEYOND bizarre. Try again Sultan. Thanks for the first attempt.
Pretty sure the Lakers started Rambis and brought McAdoo/Thompson off of the bench, the Sixers started Iavaroni and brought Bobby Jones off of the bench, the Celtics brought McHale off of the bench, the Bucks brought Pierce off of the bench........There is a long history of bringing one of the best players off of the bench.
I agree Tower. Starting 4 role players over more talented guys is really weird, and unprecedented.
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Bunch of old man homophobia on a basketball forum. Awesome.
Kissing your teenage son on the lips is odd to some people. You find it normal? How about kissing your teenage daughter on the lips?
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Ners has 5500+ posts here over a relatively short time, so if anybody is "taking over this board" you might have the wrong guys. Some of his opinions (more PT for Burton, Derrick was a sub par starting point guard, Jake was a sub par starting 2 guard, etc.,) I agree with. Others (Dawson should have played 30 minutes) I disagree with but tolerate Still others ("Buzz was a genius who - because of his ego, thanks Dr Laura - suddenly went nuts and started throwing games" or "Anyone who disagrees with me about Derrick/Dawson's minutes (including Buzz) is basketball brain dead") I don't tolerate - because on their face they don't make sense.
Lenny - Do you not find it comical that you accuse me of taking over the board, yet I have been a member longer, and have fewer posts than you? Probably should have taken that into consideration before making the dumb comment.
And lastly, still waiting for you to answer the question regarding Burton in the Big East Tourney? If a coach is truly trying to win a game, why does he take out his most dominant force in that game, going for 23 points in 23 minutes, on 64% shooting from the field - when the player isn't in any kind of foul trouble - for 6:30 of the last 7:00 minutes of a very close game. (A game MU led when Buzz decided to take Burton out?)
You can be naive, and choose to believe Buzz was doing his best to win games last year...but there is a mountain of evidence that suggests just the opposite -the most incriminating of course is the above...which to no surprise you have no answer for, as it was totally inexcusable coaching for a coach trying to win a game.
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Kissing your teenage son on the lips is odd to some people. You find it normal? How about kissing your teenage daughter on the lips?
And this is a basketball forum?
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And this is a basketball forum?
I'm responding to your accusations of homophobia. Why not answer the question? Do you agree with other posters, but yet don't want to accuse yourself of homophobia, only others? Double standards and nonsense accusations.. nothing new.
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You can be naive, and choose to believe Buzz was doing his best to win games last year...but there is a mountain of evidence that suggests just the opposite -the most incriminating of course is the above...which to no surprise you have no answer for, as it was totally inexcusable coaching for a coach trying to win a game.
I can assure with 100% certainty that Buzz was doing his best to win games. To think he was purposely throwing games is naive.
He coached that Xavier game like he did any other game in his career. When the game is on the line, he rolled with his upperclassmen. Buzz has ALWAYS done that (credit to Sultan's earlier point). Can you argue that's the wrong call? Absolutely, I think it was. Buzz absolutely made the wrong call in that game. But he also was absolutely not trying to lose.
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USMC 67-70
San Diego; Pendleton; Cherry Point; Pendleton; Quang Tri province, FLSG Support group; Da Nang; I Corps
Semper Fi Willie
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I can assure with 100% certainty that Buzz was doing his best to win games. To think he was purposely throwing games is naive.
He coached that Xavier game like he did any other game in his career. When the game is on the line, he rolled with his upperclassmen. Buzz has ALWAYS done that (credit to Sultan's earlier point). Can you argue that's the wrong call? Absolutely, I think it was. Buzz absolutely made the wrong call in that game. But he also was absolutely not trying to lose.
Buzz has always done what? Sultan's point? That Buzz always started one guy who wasn't a starter caliber player? Yea, I agree - what he didn't do was start 3 or 4 of those guys together..as he did last year.
And, I can assure with 100% certainty that your opinion that Buzz was doing his best to win games is just as much of an opinion as mine - that he wasn't doing his best to win games. If he was, he really had a regression in coaching knowledge and smarts than previously demonstrated the 5 prior years.
Hell even Mike Hunt called him out about the Burton benching - it was obvious to even him that it was beyond bizarre. More bizarre was Buzz's feeble attempt at answering that question!
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Buzz has always done what? Sultan's point?
To clear it up for you. Buzz has ALWAYS, in every season he was a head coach, played upperclassmen while benching freshmen when the game was on the line. Even when the freshmen had more talent than the upperclassmen. Buzz has always trusted experience over talent. That is why Burton was benched. Again, in my opinion it was the wrong call. But it was a call made with the intention of winning the game.
Sultan's point was that Buzz didn't change his in game tactics during last season. They were the exact same tactics he used successfully in years 1-5. Now a good coach adjusts when his old tactics aren't working. Buzz didn't.
So Buzz didn't have a "regression in coaching knowledge." His limits were revealed in a very obvious way. Winning covers up a lot of flaws.
Equalizer had a great post in another thread. He listed all of the head scratching losses from Buzz' tenure. Everything from the collapse at Louisville, the collapse against Florida State, the Ohio State embarrassment. All of them had very similar themes. Buzz has some pretty good ideas about coaching, but has zero ability to adjust when they don't work.
And, I can assure with 100% certainty that your opinion that Buzz was doing his best to win games is just as much of an opinion as mine - that he wasn't doing his best to win games.
Except if you talk to anyone in the administration they all say that Buzz was absolutely trying to win. There's also the common sense argument that Buzz gets nothing out of trying to lose but has a lot to gain by trying to win. There's also the fact that if you know one thing about Buzz it is that he will do anything to win. It is pretty much all he cares about.
Buzz was the main problem with last year's team. But it wasn't because he was trying to throw the season. It's because he lost the team completely, recruited the PG position poorly, and has almost no ability to make adjustments when his first idea doesn't work.
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TAMU you hit the nail on the head completely. Buzz was coaching the same way he always was. It didn't work and he didn't adjust. Honestly, the idea that he wasn't coaching to win gives him more of an excuse than he deserves.
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There have been a lot of outrageous positions taken on a myriad of topics in Scoop history. None is more outrageous than the "Buzz didn't play the guys I think he should have so he must have been trying to lose" meme. Out-freakin'-rageous.
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TAMU you hit the nail on the head completely. Buzz was coaching the same way he always was. It didn't work and he didn't adjust. Honestly, the idea that he wasn't coaching to win gives him more of an excuse than he deserves.
Ahh your point in this thread was referring to the fact that Buzz was doing what he'd done in the past with regard to starting a non-starter caliber player...though TAMU did try to run a nice deflection on the point being discussed! As I pointed out, that was true - but never did Buzz decide to start 4 non-starting caliber players together in the past. Nor did Buzz mass substitute like a machine gun with no rhyme or reason or regularity during conference play as he did last year. Never did Buzz play 11 different guys in a 3 minute span during conference play in the past.
Lastly, this whole notion of Buzz always relied on his upperclassmen in crunch time is a farce in that when in Buzz's tenure did he have MORE TALENTED underclassmen that he relegated to the bench other than last year?? The only guy I could potentially come up with would be Mayo - but he had DJO in front of him as a freshman...and Vander..but Vander was an underclassmen. Yet Buzz did play Mayo quite a bit including good minutes in the NCAA tourney at the end of the season. Hell Mayo was the only guy that showed up against Florida in that loss.
Please TAMU and Sultan - STop trying to grasp for straws to try to support your season-long wrong take on last year and Buzz. It's foolish. Trying to argue Buzz did what he always did is ridiculous. Buzz IS a hell of a lot smarter and better basketball coach than what he was last year - to think otherwise is foolish. He either was subliminally throwing games, or his EGO had gotten so incredibly big - that after hearing grumbles among the fanbase with his coaching/playing time allocation last season that he was hell bent on trying to prove people wrong, or felt he was a good enough coach to win at this level playing 4 on 5. He said it...and he didn't have to play 4 on 5. But chose to all season long..and chose to do so playing the "invisible" 5th player MORE minutes than any other player. Wow. Just wow.
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There have been a lot of outrageous positions taken on a myriad of topics in Scoop history. None is more outrageous than the "Buzz didn't play the guys I think he should have so he must have been trying to lose" meme. Out-freakin'-rageous.
They just do not seem to understand, that even if Buzz decided he was leaving he would not still try to win, because it would hurt him in negotiating for a new job to not win as much as possible.
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There have been a lot of outrageous positions taken on a myriad of topics in Scoop history. None is more outrageous than the "Buzz didn't play the guys I think he should have so he must have been trying to lose" meme. Out-freakin'-rageous.
What's out-freakin'-rageous is your total and complete Chicos-esque (Crean) Buzz ball slurping, that you can't even look at things objectively.
Answer the question Lenny - If Buzz was trying to win games, why would he bench a guy who was dominating the opposition in a must win game with 23 points in 23 minutes, on 64% shooting...for 6:30 of the last 7:00 minutes of the game? TAMU's lame excuse that Buzz always favored upperclassmen was a joke, as I just posted - because never did Buzz have a clearly more talented freshman sitting on the bench behind an upperclassmen in his whole tenure.
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They just do not seem to understand, that even if Buzz decided he was leaving he would not still try to win, because it would hurt him in negotiating for a new job to not win as much as possible.
Buzz had feelers out all of last season. It is highly inconceivable to think that Buzz could have negotiated such an incredibly one-sided and lopsided contract in a matter of a couple of days. VaTech was desperate to get any coach with any skins on the wall. The A.D was Cincy's former A.D...and one of Buzz's best buddies in the coaching world is Cronin...Cronin was the conduit.
Buzz finishing 17-15 didn't hurt him the least in his negotiations with a bottom feeder with deep pockets. His contract is unbelievably lucrative.
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Please TAMU and Sultan - STop trying to grasp for straws to try to support your season-long wrong take on last year and Buzz. It's foolish. Trying to argue Buzz did what he always did is ridiculous. Buzz IS a hell of a lot smarter and better basketball coach than what he was last year - to think otherwise is foolish. He either was subliminally throwing games, or his EGO had gotten so incredibly big - that after hearing grumbles among the fanbase with his coaching/playing time allocation last season that he was hell bent on trying to prove people wrong, or felt he was a good enough coach to win at this level playing 4 on 5.
So let me get this straight...
We are arguing that he was a good coach with a bad year.
You are arguing that he threw games on purpose.
And you are portraying us as crazy? LOL...no use arguing with a tin foil hat wearer. So I won't.
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I am of the opinion that Buzz knew this was his last year at Marquette before the season started. He obviously was revealed to have very thin skin last year. I think he would rather lose with his "game changers" and thumb his nose at everyone who was calling for lineup changes, than give in to the critics who thought we would have a better chance to win with other more talented lineups. Why not play the more talented underclassmen? Because he knew he was gone and wanted to show loyalty to the players who still bought into his BS.
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I am of the opinion that Buzz knew this was his last year at Marquette before the season started.
I think some of us knew Buzz' last year at Marquette was two years ago.
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So let me get this straight...
We are arguing that he was a good coach with a bad year.
You are arguing that he threw games on purpose.
And you are portraying us as crazy? LOL...no use arguing with a tin foil hat wearer. So I won't.
LOL - Can't attack the argument, attack the person. Nice Sultan. But please, why would you choose to play 4 on 5, and the guy who is the invisible player...play that guy MORE minutes than any other player? Please, weigh in on why Burton was benched for 6:30 of the last 7:00 against Xavier in Big East tourney? Neither of those decisions seems very intelligent or something you just chalk up to "he was a good coach that had a bad year." LOL. Funny. At what point do you not let a little common sense rule if you are Buzz - Gee, I know I'm playing 4 on 5, and the 1 game I tried the other guy for 32 minutes, we won..arguably our best win of the year, on the road...and that guy played a nice part in getting us to the winners circle. Perhaps I'll try that a few more times hereafter? Hmm. But nope. 9 minutes the next game. Comical.
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LOL - Can't attack the argument, attack the person. Nice Sultan. But please, why would you choose to play 4 on 5, and the guy who is the invisible player...play that guy MORE minutes than any other player? Please, weigh in on why Burton was benched for 6:30 of the last 7:00 against Xavier in Big East tourney? Neither of those decisions seems very intelligent or something you just chalk up to "he was a good coach that had a bad year." LOL. Funny. At what point do you not let a little common sense rule if you are Buzz - Gee, I know I'm playing 4 on 5, and the 1 game I tried the other guy for 32 minutes, we won..arguably our best win of the year, on the road...and that guy played a nice part in getting us to the winners circle. Perhaps I'll try that a few more times hereafter? Hmm. But nope. 9 minutes the next game. Comical.
Ners,
When I get a chance, I will respond to your assertions via private message. I'm putting you on ignore for a little while. The mod's warning may have stopped the D v. D debate, but I feel like this line of arguing is just as obnoxious for other scoopers. I am just as responsible for it as you. I may enjoy debating you but at this point it's better done via PM.
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LOL - Can't attack the argument, attack the person. Nice Sultan. But please, why would you choose to play 4 on 5, and the guy who is the invisible player...play that guy MORE minutes than any other player? Please, weigh in on why Burton was benched for 6:30 of the last 7:00 against Xavier in Big East tourney? Neither of those decisions seems very intelligent or something you just chalk up to "he was a good coach that had a bad year." LOL. Funny. At what point do you not let a little common sense rule if you are Buzz - Gee, I know I'm playing 4 on 5, and the 1 game I tried the other guy for 32 minutes, we won..arguably our best win of the year, on the road...and that guy played a nice part in getting us to the winners circle. Perhaps I'll try that a few more times hereafter? Hmm. But nope. 9 minutes the next game. Comical.
I have answered your questions hundreds of times. But you don't like the answers. So you keep asking and asking and asking... Saying the same things over and over and over...
I am not going to put you on ignore like TAMU, but I am simply not going to engage in debate with you about this stuff any longer. It just wears people out.
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My #donedeal has proven to be a few days early.... How is this thread surviving??
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My #donedeal has proven to be a few days early.... How is this thread surviving??
Ganzer? Is that you?
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I am firmly convinced that TAMU and the Sultan are the same person. They march in Lockstep. Ners is their Avatar.
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I am firmly convinced that TAMU and the Sultan are the same person. They march in Lockstep. Ners is their Avatar.
Nah, TAMU would apologize for calling someone and his wife a liar on this board.
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Are the mods on vacation at the same time? This is getting ridiculous.
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So is Todd Mayo no longer at Marquette still?
16 page thread...
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I am firmly convinced that TAMU and the Sultan are the same person. They march in Lockstep. Ners is their Avatar.
Considering that someone else has accused me of being another front for Chicos, I don't know if I could be truly considered in lockstep with Sultan.
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Much to do about nothing.
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So is Todd Mayo no longer at Marquette still?
16 page thread...
LOL! I've been pondering the last 3 days to post, "So is Todd Mayo no longer at Marquette?"