Malaysian Flt #17

[Spotcheck Billy]

Agreed.  Ukraine would have to be immeasurably foolish to think that assassination would work in their favor politically.  Even an attempt would cause their allies to abandon them, and give Russia a reason to declare war and annex Ukraine fully.  Which is why I called that story a crock.  No nation except N. Korea is that foolish.

Fixed

[Galway Eagle]

Don't know of this has been mentioned but 100 of those passengers were amongst the top AIDS/HIV researchers in the world.  Research took a huge step back because of this. 

[brandx]

Agreed.  Ukraine would have to be immeasurably foolish to think that assassination would work in their favor politically.  Even an attempt would cause their allies to abandon them, and give Russia a reason to declare war and annex Ukraine fully.  Which is why I called that story a crock.  No nation is that foolish.

Only those who believe Russian election results will believe this was an attempt at Putin.

[martyconlonontherun]

Don't know of this has been mentioned but 100 of those passengers were amongst the top AIDS/HIV researchers in the world.  Research took a huge step back because of this. 

I'll be that douche. The passengers included researchers, health workers, and activists so they weren't all top researchers. Huge human loss and I apologize for that slight exaggeration bothering me for some reason.

[Lennys Tap]

I just started a book called The Things they Carried about the Vietnam War. I know you are a big-time reader so I am wondering if you have read it. Tim O'Brien is the author.

The Things They Carried is a positively brilliant collection of short stories revolving around Tim O'Brien's time in Vietnam. Also read Searching for Cacciato (another Vietnam book), In The Lake of The Woods and July, July by O'Brien. Great stuff.

[brandx]

The Things They Carried is a positively brilliant collection of short stories revolving around Tim O'Brien's time in Vietnam. Also read Searching for Cacciato (another Vietnam book), In The Lake of The Woods and July, July by O'Brien. Great stuff.

Thanks for the suggestions Lenny.

[keefe]

I just started a book called The Things they Carried about the Vietnam War. I know you are a big-time reader so I am wondering if you have read it. Tim O'Brien is the author.

x

That is an excellent read which you should enjoy along many dimensions. Vietnam is a particular interest - I posted a bibliography in an earlier thread. I'll paste it in here for reference:


You realize of course that the Truman Doctrine was based on Kennan's Foreign Affairs article, The Sources of Soviet Conduct. Kennan argued that the Soviet Union was inherently expansionist, not for ideological reasons, but for the simple fact of Tsarist Realpolitik tradition. His thesis was that Moscow needed to be contained in geographies of strategic importance to the West. Vietnam certainly lay beyond that sphere and Kennan argued vehemently against US involvement in a French post-colonial transition issue (remember, of course, that French colonial control and security was reimposed and enforced by the Japanese Imperial Army whose troops continued to garrison Indochina on behalf of the French until 1950.)

So was the failure of the Truman Doctrine in Indochina the responsibility of the military, as you suggest? I think before you answer this you need to read from a balanced bibliography to include:

"The Sources of Soviet Conduct," Foreign Affairs, George F. Kennan

Vietnam: A History, Stanley Karnow

The Quiet American, Graham Greene

A Rumor of War, Phil Caputo

A Bright Shining Lie, Neil Sheehan

Anatomy of a War, Gabriel Kolko

Fire In the Lake, Frances FitzGerald

The Best and the Brightest, David Halberstam

Triumph Forsaken, Mark Moyar

A Better War, Lewis Sorley

Dispatches, Michael Herr

Fields of Fire, Jim Webb

A Soldier Reports, William Westmoreland

In Retrospect, Robert McNamara

Class Warfare, Noam Chomsky

Fighter Pilot, Robin Olds

People's War, Vo Nguyen Giap

Ho Chi Minh, William Duiker

The Lost Valley: Dien Bien Phu and the French defeat in Vietnam, Martin Windrow

The Other Side of Heaven, Minh Kue Le & Tru Ong Vu

The Things They Carried, Tim O'Brien

I think you will find this reading provides a balanced overview of what Vietnam was and meant to all parties concerned

[Benny B]

Why do you say that?

If you want to take out the head-of-state of a major country, you not only need the motivation, but you need the capacity to do it.  A suicidal whack-job with a gun doesn't make for a would-be assassin.  Someone as guarded as Putin would require a copious amount planning, intelligence, access, etc.  And that would be just for your conventional, Jack Ruby-style "walk-up-and-fire-and-bear-the-consequences" assassination attempt.

If you're going for stealth, you need all of that plus something else: the proper equipment and training.  There are a lot of things you can learn on the interwebs these days... how to become a sniper isn't one of them  (not to mention, sniper rifles aren't typically stocked at Gander Mountain).  I think it was the Russians who last made a poisoning attempt, so they'll be on the watch for that.  An accident just isn't going to cut it, and something tells me cyberbulling Vlad on his Facebook page into suicide won't work either.

Now, if said assassination attempt was being made by shooting down a plane 33k overhead from the ground, another thing is necessary... the Mexicans call them cohones.  Whoever pulls the trigger on that knows damn well that the world is going to pull out all stops to figure out who did it before WWIII starts, and Ukraine isn't a country who's going to risk that type of retaliation; they certainly don't have the ability to frame someone else for a missile strike from their own territory.

Take away the motivation part for a moment, and there are two groups in the entire world who could pull off something like that... CIA and MI6.  And if either of them wanted Putin dead, he'd been lying in state long ago.

[Galway Eagle]

I'll be that douche. The passengers included researchers, health workers, and activists so they weren't all top researchers. Huge human loss and I apologize for that slight exaggeration bothering me for some reason.

Because a "researcher" can't be a top researcher? Read some of the articles they tell you some of the specific people.  I don't think all were top researchers but there were some of the top researchers and activists on there.  Apology somewhat accepted

[Lennys Tap]

Thanks for the suggestions Lenny.

You're more than welcome. I'll be interested in your thoughts when you're finished.

[brandx]

x

That is an excellent read which you should enjoy along many dimensions. Vietnam is a particular interest - I posted a bibliography in an earlier thread. I'll paste it in here for reference:

(cut for brevity)

Thanks, K

I see several in the list I have either read or will read.

[GooooMarquette]

If you want to take out the head-of-state of a major country, you not only need the motivation, but you need the capacity to do it.  A suicidal whack-job with a gun doesn't make for a would-be assassin.  Someone as guarded as Putin would require a copious amount planning, intelligence, access, etc.  And that would be just for your conventional, Jack Ruby-style "walk-up-and-fire-and-bear-the-consequences" assassination attempt.

If you're going for stealth, you need all of that plus something else: the proper equipment and training.  There are a lot of things you can learn on the interwebs these days... how to become a sniper isn't one of them  (not to mention, sniper rifles aren't typically stocked at Gander Mountain).  I think it was the Russians who last made a poisoning attempt, so they'll be on the watch for that.  An accident just isn't going to cut it, and something tells me cyberbulling Vlad on his Facebook page into suicide won't work either.

Now, if said assassination attempt was being made by shooting down a plane 33k overhead from the ground, another thing is necessary... the Mexicans call them cohones.  Whoever pulls the trigger on that knows damn well that the world is going to pull out all stops to figure out who did it before WWIII starts, and Ukraine isn't a country who's going to risk that type of retaliation; they certainly don't have the ability to frame someone else for a missile strike from their own territory.

Take away the motivation part for a moment, and there are two groups in the entire world who could pull off something like that... CIA and MI6.  And if either of them wanted Putin dead, he'd been lying in state long ago.

Agreed.  And the likelihood that Ukraine had the intel to know Putin's flight path back from Rio is about as close to zero as you can get.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Agreed.  Ukraine would have to be immeasurably foolish to think that assassination would work in their favor politically.  Even an attempt would cause their allies to abandon them, and give Russia a reason to declare war and annex Ukraine fully.  Which is why I called that story a crock.  No nation is that foolish.

Iraq tried to assasinate Bush I

[keefe]

Thanks, K

I see several in the list I have either read or will read.

Tough call but if I had to pick just one from my list it would be Fire in the lake by Frances FitzGerald. Superb read.

[77ncaachamps]

Russia Today
China News

All are available via antenna in the US. It's no wonder they're trying to spin news in our country.

For that broadcaster to leave, I applaud her. She sees now - despite collecting a check for some time - that her network is state-based propaganda.

I'm surprised, though, the Al-Jazeera network isn't that widely available via antenna.

[keefe]

Russia Today
China News

All are available via antenna in the US. It's no wonder they're trying to spin news in our country.

For that broadcaster to leave, I applaud her. She sees now - despite collecting a check for some time - that her network is state-based propaganda.

I'm surprised, though, the Al-Jazeera network isn't that widely available via antenna.

RT is rubbish. It's DNA is pure Tass/Pravda but with polish. Anyone who wastes a second watching its content is squandering mortal sand.

[GGGG]

So why ultimately will nothing substantial happen to Russia even after the airline was shot down?

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2014/07/russia_s_corrupt_control_of_europe_how_vladimir_putin_keeps_the_continent.html

Pretty sobering explanation. 

[keefe]

So why ultimately will nothing substantial happen to Russia even after the airline was shot down?

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2014/07/russia_s_corrupt_control_of_europe_how_vladimir_putin_keeps_the_continent.html

Pretty sobering explanation. 

Russia learned early in the post-Yeltsin era that political linkages in business and business linkages in politics are the contemporary equivalent of Stalin's, "How many divisions has the Pope?"

But the reality is that Novorossiya is much more fragile than we might believe. And therein lies the danger.


http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118827/russias-natural-gas-and-oil-exports-are-68-percent-total-exports

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/382929/stillborn-new-russia-alex-alexiev

[GGGG]

Thank you keefe.  Those were interesting.

[keefe]

Thank you keefe.  Those were interesting.

An interesting take on fallout and end game from Politico


http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/07/the-end-of-vladimir-putin-109604.html#.U90UMe90yM8

[Benny B]

An interesting take on fallout and end game from Politico


http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/07/the-end-of-vladimir-putin-109604.html#.U90UMe90yM8

The Russian mindset on this issue is very curious indeed.  Much in the same way you had many German generals and businessmen during WWII who despised Hitler (and hoped for his downfall even as they continued to do his bidding), you have the same situation in Russia today.... maybe Putin's not so ill-intentioned by the military, but in today's global economy, Russian oligarchs have just as much influence in that country as the generals.